View Full Version : Feeding problem
I searched the site and my google-fu came up empty.
14.5" DD mid-length upper. Std carbine buffer/spring. New Pmags.
This was observed during the first 400rds. New rifle.
I ran 200rds of XM193. Then started mixing XM856 and steel Tula. The rifle seemed to be extracting fine but on 2-3 occasions, randomly the steel Tula rounds mis-fed and were wedged by the bolt. The final resting place has the tip of the ammo above the chamber. The bolt is jammed into the side of the casing. Should have taken a pic sorry.
What mechanism(s) would cause this type of malfunction?
Tula is crap. Having said that I would put an H buffer in there and see what happens.
I searched the site and my google-fu came up empty.
14.5" DD mid-length upper. Std carbine buffer/spring. New Pmags.
This was observed during the first 400rds. New rifle.
I ran 200rds of XM193. Then started mixing XM856 and steel Tula. The rifle seemed to be extracting fine but on 2-3 occasions, randomly the steel Tula rounds mis-fed and were wedged by the bolt. The final resting place has the tip of the ammo above the chamber. The bolt is jammed into the side of the casing. Should have taken a pic sorry.
What mechanism(s) would cause this type of malfunction?
Agreed on the tula crap. Was testing to see how the rifle perfromed with lower quality ammo. I much prefer the price.
With that said, is this kind of failure due to action speed? The point of trying the H buffer is to slow the BCG correct?
I am trying to understand the mechanism of failure. If there is a source of info I would much prefer to read and understand vs parts swapping until it works.
IShootBlanks
03-07-11, 22:39
did you make sure to insert new mags with a open bolt?
I agree about the H-buffer.
i use steel case occasionally... only has giving me problem when mixing and matching
steel doesnt expand as well in the chamber and the void is filled by carbon.. which makes the chamber tight when that brass expands in that dirty chamber... could slow things down enough to mess up feeding.
give a good cleaning.. lube er good. if you shoot steel shoot it last.
sometimes guns just dont like the steel.
New mags.
I shot 200rds of XM193.
Then changed over and started using the tula and others stuff.
Everything was very clean and I did lube generously after the first malfunction. Didn't seem to be a lubrication issue. Ejection didn't seem to be any different than the XM193.
sometimes guns just dont like the steel.
Respectfully, I'm not buying into that theory yet. I think maybe it may take some tuning.
I'm still trying to determine if this type of feeding malfunction is related to action speed? I really would like this rifle to feed anything I put into it. I'll be ordering a H- buffer today.
Based on your description of the round position, I would say it is an issue with stripping the round from the magazine. As it didn't happen with the other (non-steel) ammo, I think we can rule out the magazine as the issue. That brings us back to the steel-cased ammo. Case sizing, bullet seating depth, case laquer (if any) could be causing issues as the round comes out of the magazine. Slowing the bolt down a bit (H buffer) may help mitigate, but I still say it's that ammo (notice I didn't say steel ammo in general, just THAT steel ammo). If you really want to run steel-cased and deal with the chamber fouling, try another brand, but I think it's pretty well documented that steel-cased ammo in an AR will eventually give you issues.
IShootBlanks
03-08-11, 13:54
Respectfully, I'm not buying into that theory yet. I think maybe it may take some tuning.
mine love steel.. just need to tune and adjust..
make sure to look over the steel well when you load it into the mags
ive seen quite a few with messed up necks and creases etc..
I'll have to disagree on the H buffer suggestion....I think that will just make matters worse. Biggest problem with Tula is that it is extremely weak and it just struggles to cycle in some rifles - most likely those middies with slightly undersize or even standard size gas ports. I'm thinking what is happening is it is barely able to get the bolt back to pick up the next round - sometimes perhaps just starting to move it, then skipping off it, which is causing the issue. In addition to Tula just being weak overall, I find it to be very inconsistent as well - namely, some rounds are even weaker than usual; it is likely these that are causing the hangups.
I had the same trouble with a 16" midlength barrel not long ago - I was using a H2 buffer and it would run everything absolutely fine....except Tula, where it was having similar problems to those described here, or short stroking badly enough to simply not even pick up the next round at all. I switched out to a carbine buffer and it improved matters, but I still got the odd stoppage. If the OP is already on a stock spring and carbine buffer, there's nowhere else to go (short of stripping the rifle and checking the gas port for alignment, etc).
As mentioned....Tula really is the bottom of the barrel stuff - I'd suggest using Brown Bear instead - hotter ammo, more consistent, and just about the same price.
i, too, think it's short stroking... i'd be looking for a gas leak or other problem. tula is weak, but with a carbine buffer, it should still cycle. i've run tula in numerous different guns of varying gas ratios, and it's run in everything- sometimes with a bit of tweeking, but i haven't encourted anything it won't run in.
to confirm this, load one round of tula into different mags, and see if it locks back empty.
check your gas rings, check your carrier key, check your gas block
Canonshooter
03-08-11, 17:02
I have the same situation with a BCM 16" SS 410 middy. It most frequently happens with some target reloads that otherwise shoot fine. I think some set ups need NATO spec loads to shoot with 100% reliability - I'll be spending more time with mine soon and take more careful notes of when it happens, what loads, magazine, etc.
Thank you for all the replies. I will inspect everything closely. Are there any particular tricks to finding gas leaks?
I will also play with some different kinds of ammo. I just didn't get far enough into diagnostics as my shooting day was ending.
Any further insight, I'm all ears. But I think I have some work to do...
I had same issue with Silver Bear. I think it is out of spec ammo. If you can check the spec's of the case, then that would be a plus. I am guessing that it doesn't happen when you first load a round. My DDM4 shoots fine with brass and even most steel, wolf and brown bear, have not tried Tula. Just did not like that batch of ammo. Try other steel ammo before ruling out all steel ammo.
Clean the crap (lacquer finish of metal cases) out of your chamber and especally feed ramps.
Stop using the metal cases unless you clean your rifle after ever 100 rounds.
Jim
I had same issue with Silver Bear. I think it is out of spec ammo. If you can check the spec's of the case, then that would be a plus. I am guessing that it doesn't happen when you first load a round. My DDM4 shoots fine with brass and even most steel, wolf and brown bear, have not tried Tula. Just did not like that batch of ammo. Try other steel ammo before ruling out all steel ammo.
you think the ammo is under sized enough that the bolt is missing it? negative.
Clean the crap (lacquer finish of metal cases) out of your chamber and especally feed ramps.
Stop using the metal cases unless you clean your rifle after ever 100 rounds.
Jim
brass is "metal" too, you know.
you don't need to clean your gun every 100 rounds with steel ammo.
no ammo is lacquer coated anymore, that i know of- and it doesn't effect anything anyway. the issue with steel ammo is not the sealant- it's the soot that gets injected into the chamber from steel case's lack of expansion and extra dirty powder.
It was polymer coated Tula. No lacquer.
It seemed to be ejecting fine. It was generally pretty clean upon inspection. I haven't gotten a chance to look at anything yet. Work, kids, and early season motorcycle prep has been sucking my time...
It was polymer coated Tula. No lacquer.
It seemed to be ejecting fine. It was generally pretty clean upon inspection. I haven't gotten a chance to look at anything yet. Work, kids, and early season motorcycle prep has been sucking my time...
my Bushmaster loves that ammo to and the steel lacquer .I put over a 3'000 rnds in it and I clean it after every rang trip .One time I tested it with steel lacquer with no cleaning and it never FTF,FTE it went bang every time .I have been using this ammo because of the cheap price .I watch all of the rich boys with their LMT's,and high dollar M-4's (CHOKE) on this ammo.If your weapon can not shoot this ammo than whats going to happen when the (SHTF) and that is the only ammo around .All I know is that my Bushmaster M-4 is my trusted GO-TO weapon .:dance3::dance3::dance3:
my Bushmaster loves that ammo to and the steel lacquer .I put over a 3'000 rnds in it and I clean it after every rang trip .One time I tested it with steel lacquer with no cleaning and it never FTF,FTE it went bang every time .I have been using this ammo because of the cheap price .I watch all of the rich boys with their LMT's,and high dollar M-4's (CHOKE) on this ammo.If your weapon can not shoot this ammo than whats going to happen when the (SHTF) and that is the only ammo around .All I know is that my Bushmaster M-4 is my trusted GO-TO weapon .:dance3::dance3::dance3:
====================================
============================
Well there you go...all these guys must be idiots...guess you've proved them all wrong!
Heck...Who needs all that testing, proper metallurgy, right sight height, inspections, appropriate chambering, proper assembly, 1/7 rifling, chrome-lining, blah…blah…blah
Reckon they’ll have to shut this forum down now because you proved them all wrong.
Don’t it feel good to be so right…??? Them stupid "rich guys" with their uppity guns...you showed them...
(copied from an earlier post concerning the same sample of one bragging turk d'ville.).
.
Thomas M-4
03-13-11, 22:37
my Bushmaster loves that ammo to and the steel lacquer .I put over a 3'000 rnds in it and I clean it after every rang trip .One time I tested it with steel lacquer with no cleaning and it never FTF,FTE it went bang every time .I have been using this ammo because of the cheap price .I watch all of the rich boys with their LMT's,and high dollar M-4's (CHOKE) on this ammo.If your weapon can not shoot this ammo than whats going to happen when the (SHTF) and that is the only ammo around .All I know is that my Bushmaster M-4 is my trusted GO-TO weapon .:dance3::dance3::dance3:
Damn Dude this is the second thread you have been proclaiming bushwacker as the end all be all. I have over 3500 rds through my LMT including wolf steel case seemed to digest it just fine if my memory serves me correct. Does your BM shoot 5.56 nato pressure ammo with out popping a primer? Because they are notorious for having a incorrect chamber's.
You clean it after every range trip that is nice :rolleyes: I have personally gone over 1000 rounds over 2 months with out cleaning my LMT with no problems many, many others on this forum have gone longer than I with out cleaning with out problems.
Might be wise to check your fire maybe sit back and learn some.
Tx,
Please keep the silly Bushmaster comments to yourself. It has jack shit to do with "rich boys". It's called educated consumers who have done their homework and are not stupid enough to believe in a sample of one. Bushmaster failures and short comings are well known and documented.
my Bushmaster loves that ammo to and the steel lacquer .I put over a 3'000 rnds in it and I clean it after every rang trip .One time I tested it with steel lacquer with no cleaning and it never FTF,FTE it went bang every time .I have been using this ammo because of the cheap price .I watch all of the rich boys with their LMT's,and high dollar M-4's (CHOKE) on this ammo.If your weapon can not shoot this ammo than whats going to happen when the (SHTF) and that is the only ammo around .All I know is that my Bushmaster M-4 is my trusted GO-TO weapon .:dance3::dance3::dance3:
BufordTJustice
03-14-11, 02:42
H Buffer and a BCM action spring.
What format upper are you running and what brand?
If it is a carbine length gas system AND is over gassed...a heavier buffer and/or proper strength action spring should work to solve your issue.
As was stated, check for gas leakage around the front gas block, and maybe replace the bolt gas rings for good measure. Also, a new extractor kit from BCM would be a great (and cheap) insurance policy.
Per my original post:
14.5" DD mid-length upper.
The BCG is Daniel Defense with black extractor.
As far as I could tell, it's extracting just fine.
To "others":
Please don't derail my post with silly "my gun is better than your gun" crap. The reality is the rifle shoots perfectly with any other ammo. I wish to shoot steel for practice and if I can get it to run, I will.
Sorry about the delay in feedback and the apparent dying smell, it's obviously attracting flies.
BufordTJustice
03-14-11, 12:23
No sweat brother. That upper should run like stink. When will you be able to test it next?
Will try this weekend, but my other hobby/addiction is in all-full-ahead mode.
Just some more info that may help you - I took out my new Nordic- Lilja barrel this last weekend and again today with a bunch of ammo types to see how it performed. The barrel is a 16" w/midlength gas. I tried the following ammo - Hornady TAP 75 gr and 55gr; Hornady Tap Trg 55gr; PMC Bronze, BVAC 69gr Match, Federal AE/XM193 55gr, some Corbon branded reloaded cheap stuff 55gr, Brown Bear 55gr, and Tula 55gr.
Out of all that ammo......the only problems I had was with the Tula - as a general case it was nothing more than a 50/50 chance as to whether the bolt would lock back on an empty magazine. One time, however, I did get a stoppage just as you described in your original post - and exactly as my other barrel had done. For sure the cause of it was a short stroking issue on a particularly weak round. Just firing it I could feel how noticably weak it was vs all of the others. I could feel the buffer struggling back and forward (Using a rifle buffer, extension and spring).
So basically - if your rifle doesn't 100% run Tula (not steel in general, just Tula/Tulammo/Herters and any other offshoot brands of the same stuff) - but does run everything else - I wouldn't sweat it if I were you; it is pretty notorious for behaving like this. My M&P15 does run Tula 100% - but that rifle is for sure overgassed as it is pretty snappy feeling by comparison with other ARs.
If your rifle is running great with everything but Tula, and has no signs of gas leakage/gas port misalignment/bad rings/carrier key/or any other potential problems anywhere, the only way you will get it run 100% every single time would be to drill out the gas port a bit - which is really not worth it given that Brown Bear will most likely work just fine for the same price.
Went back out to the property today with another 200rds of Tula. This time I was prepared to pay a little more attention to things. But some good news in that I experienced no malfunctions. Ran well.
Now conditions were different. I lubed the crap outta the thing when I cleaned it after the first usage. The temperature outside this morning was closer to 40's not 30's like the first time.
Not readyt o say my problme is solved and go take a class with a case full of steel cased stuff, but I think I'm on a better path to running the cheap shit.
Thanks to all on the advise. I'm thinking the increased lubrication and the gun having more rounds through it improved the feeding issue I first experienced. Thx again...
Heavy Metal
03-19-11, 21:33
my Bushmaster loves that ammo to and the steel lacquer .I put over a 3'000 rnds in it and I clean it after every rang trip .One time I tested it with steel lacquer with no cleaning and it never FTF,FTE it went bang every time .I have been using this ammo because of the cheap price .I watch all of the rich boys with their LMT's,and high dollar M-4's (CHOKE) on this ammo.If your weapon can not shoot this ammo than whats going to happen when the (SHTF) and that is the only ammo around .All I know is that my Bushmaster M-4 is my trusted GO-TO weapon .:dance3::dance3::dance3:
It ought to shoot in your Bushy by now, considering you have got gas port erosion going on in your already big enough to drive a truck thru it gas port.
If your weapon can not shoot this ammo than whats going to happen when the (SHTF) and that is the only ammo around
Since when is Russian ammo going to be getting across the Atlantic when TSHTF? I have plenty of quality ammo. If TSHTF, if I am shooting anything but brass-cased ammo in anything 5.56mm, I have failed to plan. Russian ammo is for close range drills and classes so I can save the good stuff.
If TSHTF, you better plan on being your own re-supply and not worry about what marginal ammo you likely can't get from Russia.
Heavy Metal
03-19-11, 21:39
P.S. Tula is garbage. The worst of the Russian rifle ammo. The Bear's are far better in my experience. Loaded hotter.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.