View Full Version : WTF are we teaching our kids?
This is an issue I've been experiencing first-hand for the last several years, but came to a head for me personally, and in context of this site, with regards to the Chart. Feel free to go read the various threads on that topic to see what I'm talking about.
The larger issue here is, what are we teaching our kids? Names, dates, times-tables, various languages... but where are the thinking skills? And where is the training in seeking out facts and figures and teaching the ability to weigh same and decipher them? Something I just posted in another thread:
You need the ability to seek out information from disparate sources, weigh the validity of same, and apply what you discover to your own reality.
Why are we not teaching this? Or if we are, where is it happening? and if we're not, why not?
Speaking for myself, I've always been an information sponge. I grew up in a house with an Encyclopedia set and a dictionary. Questions like "Mom, what does apocalypse mean?" were met with "the dictionary is right there next to the fireplace." Trips to the public library were frequent and commonplace. Bigger issues got us trips to the library at the university. Today I have all that information quite literally in the palm of my hand in the form of my iPhone, and many young people have similar devices, from the iPhone to an iPod to a laptop to a desktop computer. We had to wait until the weekend and get in the car and go to the library, today all one has to do, AT MOST, is walk across the room and hit a few buttons. Yet people lack the willingness to do this. Why?
Or do they lack the ability? They know what decade (asking the year would be too much) or at least the century the Civil War began, but they lack the drive or the ability to go and find out the finer details should they need them. Why? What are we doing wrong?
John_Wayne777
03-07-11, 06:56
Getting people to think critically has never been an easy task.
I don't even know that I'm asking for critical thinking. Just an ability to intellectually work for something. Just like the car one works to pay for themselves is much more valuable than the one given for nothing, so goes knowledge.
I was talking with a friend recently about child-rearing, and in the context of another discussion I said "if I were running a kindergarten I'd measure the reach of the tallest kid in class and put EVERYTHING on shelves 6-12" higher than that reach. Then I'd scatter step-stools of 6-18" all over the room".
I think this concept could equally applied to information.
Rmplstlskn
03-07-11, 08:14
I think one aspect is the well-intentioned (what do they say about good intentions?) goal to have kids perform well on TESTS. With that focus, you are fed facts, figures and data, not the ability to think, rather the ability to remember.
In hindsight, I now know why some of my teachers, back in the day, would gives us OPEN BOOK tests... At the time, I thought this to be just a time-filler exercise, as who would not score well on a test where you could SEARCH THE BOOK to find the answers. Now (actually decades ago), I understand the BRILLIANCE of this tactic...
Yes, we are in a bad state of educational affairs, and I dread the generations that will rule the world as I am old and feeble... (decades off still) Not sure how to solve it as the "SYSTEM" is well entrenched. Home school is the best option for SOME, but I do not think our family is best suited for home schooling (just one child). I hope to find a home school family to JOIN with. That is one aspect of my plan to ensure that my daughter has the best education possible, but the MAIN aspect is MY PARTICIPATION. I hope to get her to think and to FIND answers while her school system pumps her full of facts...
It is a sad thing indeed to see it unfold before our eyes in the kids we see and know...
Rmpl
jklaughrey
03-07-11, 08:14
Critical thinking and problem solving have been replaced with everything being score/test based in regards to education. Sure a kid can memorize and pass a test, but is the child really learning the material...no! It is even occurring in our universities sadly. No longer is your performance taken into account as a whole being but rather an arbitrary number on a spreadsheet. We, "society" have devalued the ability of self reliance. Now if you choose to accomplish tasks on your own you are considered not a team player and shunned. This inherently stifles the critical and cognitive skills since you now in order to fit in have to adhere to the collective groups wishes.
Getting people to think critically has never been an easy task.
Agreed...after all, Obama got elected, and that is a representation of people's critical thinking skills, or I should say...lack of them.
The saddest part is it has never been easy to look stuff up than it is right now with google, etc.
This is a huge problem in my field. Professionally I'm a P&C underwriter, but for the last eight years I've worked as an analyst in the software field designing products for my old profession.
We are having a hell of a time finding new employees under the age of thirty that has any measurable reasoning skills.
The saddest part is it has never been easy to look stuff up than it is right now with google, etc.
This is both a blessing, and a curse. Part of the problem we're seeing, is that people are so used to finding answers instantly with a quick query, that when they don't receive an instant, concise, useful answer their minds just sort of implode.
jklaughrey
03-07-11, 08:36
Perhaps a reasonable way to increase the chances of our future children getting better "life skills" and critical thinking coupled with the application thereof is to have mandatory military service of some kind. With an emphasis in leadership and problem solving skills. I know for a fact that there will be some asshats and they can just be discharged and go do highway cleanup. But for the rest it should instill at least some semblance of being a well rounded thinking adult.
jklaughrey
03-07-11, 08:39
"their minds just sort of implode".
Like this!
7656
Perhaps a reasonable way to increase the chances of our future children getting better "life skills" and critical thinking coupled with the application thereof is to have mandatory military service of some kind. With an emphasis in leadership and problem solving skills. I know for a fact that there will be some asshats and they can just be discharged and go do highway cleanup. But for the rest it should instill at least some semblance of being a well rounded thinking adult.
Wow, really? Do you know Rahm Emanuel?.....
Or maybe the government should get out of education, and let teachers TEACH. Teachers cant get into critical thinking skills, they have to teach to mandatory standardized tests. Parents and Teachers arent worried about their kids learning, they are worried about them passing. Two totally different things.
Same goes for college. Thank god i had a few professors that required you to actually THINK, instead of being a "note-drone" (copy and regurgitate)
jklaughrey
03-07-11, 08:50
Wow, really? Do you know Rahm Emanuel?.....
Or maybe the government should get out of education, and let teachers TEACH. Teachers cant get into critical thinking skills, they have to teach to mandatory standardized tests. Parents and Teachers arent worried about their kids learning, they are worried about them passing. Two totally different things.
Same goes for college. Thank god i had a few professors that required you to actually THINK, instead of being a "note-drone" (copy and regurgitate)
No I don't know Rahm. It was merely an opinion of mine. Seems to work quite for Israel. Please don't ever use my opinion in the same context with a known communist ever. Thank you.
And I do agree let the teachers teach. My wife teaches HS English and she and I fully understand the issues the education system faces.
This is both a blessing, and a curse. Part of the problem we're seeing, is that people are so used to finding answers instantly with a quick query, that when they don't receive an instant, concise, useful answer their minds just sort of implode.
I completely agree; many can give you an immediate answer, but further questioning on details shows they are completely lost. Unfortunately, my wife who is 28, is like this. I dont get it, and I urge her to read the paper, watch the BBC news, anything so we have a topic of substance to discuss over dinner other than wtf Jenny said to Julie on Bookface. Pop-culture and the mass flooding of bs creates a slippery slope for kids, if we as parents dont become their bs filters when they are young. Thank heavens for PBS.
m24shooter
03-07-11, 09:00
I agree Rob.
My kids are in elementary school. Friday we were getting some stuff for a camping trip (their first) and looking at the map for the park.
My son asked "What's a foot bridge?" and "What's a filter funnel?" At his age I had already learned root words and at least some critical thinking. Questions in my house were met the same way as mentioned: look it up. I told him to look at the words in the name and figure it out. He got it, but I was amazed that I had to point out the obvious.
I got our kids netbooks for their birthdays last year, and I tell them we have taught you how to read, we've taught you how to use Google, there is no reason you can't find out pretty much anything you would ever want to know in a much quicker time than I ever dreamed of. That doesn't mean I've cut them loose to wonder on their own when it comes to learning, but I think we have devolved to the point that knowing facts is more important than understanding the process that those facts fit into.
Or maybe the government should get out of education,
I agree here.
and let teachers TEACH. Teachers cant get into critical thinking skills, they have to teach to mandatory standardized tests. Parents and Teachers arent worried about their kids learning, they are worried about them passing. Two totally different things.
teachers do not have to teach to the test. Kids can pass the standardized tests if they were to be taught to think. Lazy or dumb teachers "teach to the test."
We had standardized tests when I was a kid in the early 70s. There is nothing new there. But the teachers taught us to think and be able to find info and figure stuff out and comprehend. Then we could answer the questions on the test, not from memorized stuff, but because we figured it out.
Don't blame the tests.
I agree here.
teachers do not have to teach to the test. Kids can pass the standardized tests if they were to be taught to think. Lazy or dumb teachers "teach to the test."
We had standardized tests when I was a kid in the early 70s. There is nothing new there. But the teachers taught us to think and be able to find info and figure stuff out and comprehend. Then we could answer the questions on the test, not from memorized stuff, but because we figured it out.
Don't blame the tests.
I see your point, but also think about this. Back in the 70's, teachers wouldnt lose their jobs if their students didnt get good scores. Thanks to "no child left behind" teachers are now punished if they dont get EVERY student to a certain level (in theory thats a great idea, but guess what, some kids are just stupid...fact of life). That means most teachers are going to focus 95% of their time and effort on making sure their class scores high enough to either A. Keep their job, or B. Get more money...
Plus now the gov. mandates what teachers can teach anyway. And usually how to teach it...."cant do this" "can do this". Basically I blame the P.C. government protocall b.s.
I went to college to become a teacher/coach, but i cant. I see so many things going on that i cant/wont be apart of, and the above is just one small thing.
Don't blame the tests.
I don't, (not 100% anyway). I blame the parents that let the school do all the teaching. Everything is a teachable moment and parents need to teach the practical applications of the facts and figures the kids are memorizing in school. Personally, I opted for Montessori for my son before he was legally kidnapped from me by a biased & broken family court system.
Cagemonkey
03-07-11, 10:35
IMHO, they don't teach kids to think because of the Political implications. Nowadays, our learning institutions are more interested in indoctrination than education. Since most of the teachers are overwhelmingly Liberal, do you really think they can restrain themselves from preaching at the pulpit? You hear horror stories all the time about teachers scolding children for expressing views or beliefs learned at home.
You want an honest answer Rob?
Here it is:
Standardized Testing for the purpose of student advancement and teacher/school accountability.
The result is an entire generation of people that rather then think critically about any one given situation, they are simply trained to find the "right" answer for the purpose of "success", then simply move on. I deal with the fallout of this every single day I am in the classroom, and let me tell you it is amazing how much coddling and hand holding is required because of this approach.
Critical thinking requires drawing from multiple sources of experience and knowledge to form one's own conclusions and answers to a problem. If students are taught that every answer is standardized, they are less likely to think creatively about how to approach problems.
Furthermore in relationship to the common rebellion I see against your chart and other things online, it seems that people that are educated in this way feel they can poke holes in information simply by saying "well what if A, B, or C." They are however incapable of making an argument past this point, ie past their general hypothesis. It is as if at some point they realized there is more to life then a standardized answer, but they haven't figured out how to access that knowledge, or use it to their advantage. As a result they simply rebel against anything that is structured or scientific, like your chart. In a totally postmodern and nihilistic approach towards information, their attitude is simply: "There are too many what ifs in life to draw any conclusions and therefore everything in the world has the same level of disprovability. Because I am smart enough to observe this it is therefore evident that I can assume my own truths, and draw my own conclusions about everything and anything I want to. These personal conclusions and truths, simply due to their existence, are as valid as every other conclusion out there despite my experience."
We can bitch and moan as much as we want about "liberal" this "conservative" that but the real problem is the standardization of everything students deal with. And in truth this approach was originally designed by conservatives, then adopted by both sides as a way for .gov to have more control over the information being taught in public schools.
We could then, after discussing the above go on to talk for hours and hours about how infotainment has further perverted people's access to knowledge, and when combined with places like internet forums where dog pack mentality runs rampant, we encourage people to do the opposite of critical thinking. But that is another conversation entirely.
You want an honest answer Rob?
Here it is:
Standardized Testing for the purpose of student advancement and teacher/school accountability.
The result is an entire generation of people that rather then think critically about any one given situation, they are simply trained to find the "right" answer for the purpose of "success", then simply move on. I deal with the fallout of this every single day I am in the classroom, and let me tell you it is amazing how much coddling and hand holding is required because of this approach.
Critical thinking requires drawing from multiple sources of experience and knowledge to form one's own conclusions and answers to a problem. If students are taught that every answer is standardized, they are less likely to think creatively about how to approach problems.
Furthermore in relationship to the common rebellion I see against your chart and other things online, it seems that people that are educated in this way feel they can poke holes in information simply by saying "well what if A, B, or C." They are however incapable of making an argument past this point, ie past their general hypothesis. It is as if at some point they realized there is more to life then a standardized answer, but they haven't figured out how to access that knowledge, or use it to their advantage. As a result they simply rebel against anything that is structured or scientific, like your chart. In a totally postmodern and nihilistic approach towards information, their attitude is simply: "There are too many what ifs in life to draw any conclusions and therefore everything in the world has the same level of disprovability. Because I am smart enough to observe this it is therefore evident that I can assume my own truths, and draw my own conclusions about everything and anything I want to. These personal conclusions and truths, simply due to their existence, are as valid as every other conclusion out there despite my experience."
We can bitch and moan as much as we want about "liberal" this "conservative" that but the real problem is the standardization of everything students deal with. And in truth this approach was originally designed by conservatives, then adopted by both sides as a way for .gov to have more control over the information being taught in public schools.
We could then, after discussing the above go on to talk for hours and hours about how infotainment has further perverted people's access to knowledge, and when combined with places like internet forums where dog pack mentality runs rampant, we encourage people to do the opposite of critical thinking. But that is another conversation entirely.
Good post. Let's take it a step further: where does this "standardization" mentality come from? It's a pretty simple (and obvious) answer: the public education system.
The same system that's been teaching that the civil war wasn't about slavery, that minorities need to be helped to succeed, that the reason Obama isn't popular is because people are taught the wrong things about "socialism" and that they should be re-educated, et cetera, is the same system that's doing away with critical thinking. They want everyone to believe what they teach because it's "political correctness" and you'll be darned (or diagnosed with ADD) if you don't conform to their mold.
What ever happened to teaching kids to think for themselves? It's no secret, the kids that could think for themselves blatantly outperformed the "special" kids whose parents hadn't taught them to think or reason. Instead of fixing the problem (telling the parents that they're crap parents who aren't raising their kids to deal with life), the school system has decided that every child is special and that no child should receive more attention than another; therefore, if one kid is dragging the class down, simply lower the expectations for the entire class to meet that single child at his level. It's the systematic, politically-correct approach to turning our population into feudal serfs who are too dumb to know what their rights and heritage are.
They don't teach crap either. When I took the ASVAB in 2002, I had just transferred to the public school system after being home schooled for the previous 10 years. Know what I got in the mail the for next 6 months? Handwritten card after card, personal invitations from recruiters alerting me that I scored a 97 AFQT and that I was the second-highest scoring person in my high school of 1200. The median for my school was like a 60-70. That's public education for you.
Thank God I was home schooled and got to bypass this pathetic crap. And now with the push to diagnose every energetic kid with ADD, and then bar those same kids from military membership and gun ownership, I'm sure as heck going to home school my kids as well.
We allow an illegal unconstitutional government operated and controlled public indoctrination system; er, ah- I mean "education" system...
k-12 is just a place to group these little kiddies together and figure out who will not conform; and separate them into groups accordingly. Teach them just enough to become "Productive" members of society (Productive memebrs being those that do not question, those that do not know, those that do not care; but go to work and pay taxes). If they do not conform, throw them out/away.
Public schools, are a black hole of ignorance and stupidity. Out of every single public school teacher I had (I went to home, public and private schools) only (2) every taught me anything (Actual KNowledge/Wisdom), the rest just regurgitated BS they could barely comprehend from "lesson books". I knew more about hte subject matter than most of my teachers through college even; and it wasn't fun at all.
We dumb down our kids plain and simple; you either allow it or you don't. Think of how much time you allow them to sit in front of the idiot box, play video games, eat shit for food, and mediate their reality through Phones and the interenet? I bet for most the answer would be (OR if honest to themselves it should be) "TOO MUCH".
If you aren't teaching your kids everything you know, teaching them to apply it; teaching them to think & do for themselves; your being a shit parent. Period.
Get over the left and the rigth BS; they both are playing directly agaisnt us citizens anyways; gholding hands across the perceived political isles. How long does it take for you people to figure out the real sides here?
The same system that's been teaching that the civil war wasn't about slavery, that minorities need to be helped to succeed, that the reason Obama isn't popular is because people are taught the wrong things about "socialism" and that they should be re-educated, et cetera,
Minor point here....throughout my 12 years of public school system we were taught very little in history, mainly about how the Civil War was soley about slavery and we were taught about the civil rights movement (and not given the whole truth of either). That was it. NOTHING about the rest of our history as a nation (well, nothing other than a bit about the Pilgrims and a bit about Paul Revere and George Washington). The various wars we've been involved with, economic troubles, labor crisis, expansion, settling of the West, NONE of that was taught. Nor were we taught anything about the rest of the world.
The ONLY reason I am as educated as I am is that I read a whole hell of a lot of books. Basically, I educated myself...
If you love your children, don't send them to public school. If you can't avoid this, then be sure to spend an hour or two each night teaching them the real truth and some real knowledge. Make sure they know how to read and encourage them to read books they like (instead of what the teacher forces upon them, my teachers made us read horribly boring books, no wonder so many of my classmates hated reading). It will be difficult for the first few years because they will hold high regard for teachers and authority figures (because you taught them to be respectful), but for their own sake sooner or later they need to learn that people in authority aren't always right and that they should always examine and investigate what they are told.
Beware that if your kid is of the inquisitive nature and tries to do actual learning, as well as actively questions what they are taught in class, using their critical thinking skills, the teacher can be quite likely to try to get you to put your child on Ritalin.
We allow an illegal unconstitutional government operated and controlled public indoctrination system; er, ah- I mean "education" system...
k-12 is just a place to group these little kiddies together and figure out who will not conform; and separate them into groups accordingly. Teach them just enough to become "Productive" members of society (Productive memebrs being those that do not question, those that do not know, those that do not care; but go to work and pay taxes). If they do not conform, throw them out/away.
Public schools, are a black hole of ignorance and stupidity. Out of every single public school teacher I had (I went to home, public and private schools) only (2) every taught me anything (Actual KNowledge/Wisdom), the rest just regurgitated BS they could barely comprehend from "lesson books". I knew more about hte subject matter than most of my teachers through college even; and it wasn't fun at all.
We dumb down our kids plain and simple; you either allow it or you don't. Think of how much time you allow them to sit in front of the idiot box, play video games, eat shit for food, and mediate their reality through Phones and the interenet? I bet for most the answer would be (OR if honest to themselves it should be) "TOO MUCH".
If you aren't teaching your kids everything you know, teaching them to apply it; teaching them to think & do for themselves; your being a shit parent. Period.
Get over the left and the rigth BS; they both are playing directly agaisnt us citizens anyways; gholding hands across the perceived political isles. How long does it take for you people to figure out the real sides here?
Brother, you said it. I've said much the same thing before. There are a few real, dedicated teachers out there, but they are far and few between (and are often hamstrung by the school administration). Education majors at the university I went to were being taught to teach poorly, too.
Good post. Let's take it a step further: where does this "standardization" mentality come from? It's a pretty simple (and obvious) answer: the public education system.
The same system that's been teaching that the civil war wasn't about slavery, that minorities need to be helped to succeed, that the reason Obama isn't popular is because people are taught the wrong things about "socialism" and that they should be re-educated, et cetera, is the same system that's doing away with critical thinking. They want everyone to believe what they teach because it's "political correctness" and you'll be darned (or diagnosed with ADD) if you don't conform to their mold.
What ever happened to teaching kids to think for themselves? It's no secret, the kids that could think for themselves blatantly outperformed the "special" kids whose parents hadn't taught them to think or reason. Instead of fixing the problem (telling the parents that they're crap parents who aren't raising their kids to deal with life), the school system has decided that every child is special and that no child should receive more attention than another; therefore, if one kid is dragging the class down, simply lower the expectations for the entire class to meet that single child at his level. It's the systematic, politically-correct approach to turning our population into feudal serfs who are too dumb to know what their rights and heritage are.
They don't teach crap either. When I took the ASVAB in 2002, I had just transferred to the public school system after being home schooled for the previous 10 years. Know what I got in the mail the for next 6 months? Handwritten card after card, personal invitations from recruiters alerting me that I scored a 97 AFQT and that I was the second-highest scoring person in my high school of 1200. The median for my school was like a 60-70. That's public education for you.
Thank God I was home schooled and got to bypass this pathetic crap. And now with the push to diagnose every energetic kid with ADD, and then bar those same kids from military membership and gun ownership, I'm sure as heck going to home school my kids as well.
Great response, and great expansion on what I'm talking about! I agree with you 100%. I have to go to work now, so I will think about how to expand on it, and read through everyone else's responses when I get back tonight.
The larger issue here is, what are we teaching our kids? Names, dates, times-tables, various languages... but where are the thinking skills? And where is the training in seeking out facts and figures and teaching the ability to weigh same and decipher them? Something I just posted in another thread:
Independent problem solving is counter productive to the social indoctrination of most public schools. They want children to think in the "accepted and proscribed" manner and they will toss in a few facts and figures to mask it as an "education."
If people can think for themselves, that leads to problem solving. That leads to the ability to solve your own problems and less need for government. And more problematic, it leads to critical evaluation which results in criticism of government.
This is of course the last thing most schools today want.
Like the environment that Rob was brought up in, I too am raising a house hold like the one you were brought up in. They have a question, they are told to not only look up the answer, but they then have to tell me what they found and then we will discuss it if necessary. But it has not been easy. The school system tried to do the same thing with them but I don't think they are able to pull it off. So with out parental involvement I do believe they lack the ability.
Like John Wayne said I don't think it is a problem limited to the current generation. Some folks either don't know how or are too lazy to do the research. If they weren't then we wouldn't have folks working behind the counter at McDonald's. That doesn't mean that they are bad people, but they have reached their zenith of intellectual ability.
One other thing that comes to mind...we adults have been for ages so damned busy that the time available for research is limited, so we tend to depend on trusted subject matter experts to get the data we are looking for.
Perhaps a reasonable way to increase the chances of our future children getting better "life skills" and critical thinking coupled with the application thereof is to have mandatory military service of some kind. With an emphasis in leadership and problem solving skills.
I think a less dramatic move would be for parents to get their kids back into the service organizations like Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts or the CAP and other organizations. Those organizations do stress individual initiative and self started research among other skills. The kids that make it to the upper echelons of these organizations I feel are better prepared for real life and are more independent.
David Thomas
03-07-11, 14:09
I was talking with a friend recently about child-rearing, and in the context of another discussion I said "if I were running a kindergarten I'd measure the reach of the tallest kid in class and put EVERYTHING on shelves 6-12" higher than that reach. Then I'd scatter step-stools of 6-18" all over the room".
I think this concept could equally applied to information.
sounds like the first year of law school.
I will look it up with them talk about it
the other thing I notice is sometimes googling answers finds you answers that are kinda typical lefty answers for things ?
so knowing where the answer is coming from is important and talking about it is important
lucky our school is pretty good
Pledge of Allegiance every day and seem to be good study habbits and such but this is the 1st grade :) so we shall see how it goes moving forward
I would highly recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Underground-History-American-Education-Investigation/dp/0945700040
If you're interested here are a bunch of short writings by the same author concerning the same subject: http://www.lewrockwell.com/gatto/gatto-arch.html
I think a less dramatic move would be for parents to get their kids back into the service organizations like Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts or the CAP and other organizations.
The Obama Youth? More government indoctrination? No thanks. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?_r=2&hp
I am not sure what exactly prompted your post, Rob, but I don't have a similar experience. In raising my own kid, I've come across many brilliant, inquisitive, curious children who had more aptitude for critical thinking that many people of my day and age. I'd see 5-10 wiki pages open on my kid's laptop regularly - not the best source, but shows desire to learn. He'd take his mac with him anywhere we traveled and learned about places from online sources and then compared it with personal on-hands experience.
There always will be lazy and unmotivated people; the question is what proportion of population belongs to each group. I don't know if I have data to say one way or another.
The Obama Youth? More government indoctrination? No thanks. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?_r=2&hp
I got to say I don't think mandatory service in any way (whether it be boyscouts or the military) is a good idea. It's just not what America's about.
Now, maybe make those service organizations and the military more accessabile and visible to the public, and then you've got something. Give incentives for joining stuff.
What are we doing wrong?
Rob I believe this is a mentoring issue. I have to teach, coach, and mentor my kids on how to research and seek different viewpoints. It has worked so far for my 19 year old daughter. She kicks ass in her College classes because she knows how to research and can approach a problem from several different ways.
Through the years I have taught many young NCOs and a few officers how to research and think critically. Critical thinking is crucial in the soldiering business. Especially for medics tasked to be flight crew as well as medical personnel. Bottom line up front, if you make the individual do the research themselves and solve the problem with you a step back coaching them they will learn.
Smuckatelli
03-08-11, 00:07
This is an issue I've been experiencing first-hand for the last several years, but came to a head for me personally, and in context of this site, with regards to the Chart. Feel free to go read the various threads on that topic to see what I'm talking about.
Are you PWI?
This has nothing to do with today's education...mentoring, smentoring..it doesn't f***ing apply.
If you buy something without understanding and then you are pointed to a chart that explains what you want to think about BEFORE you buy. What is your choice?
I dropped 50 grand on a new Volvo in 2003...it had camoflaged power, good to go price wise in October 2003 but by March 2004 you could buy it for 45 grand. My answer was simply...my wife loves the stationwagon.
I ditched my Mustang and now I drive the Volvo...
Soooo, from a man's perspective do you admit that you didn't see the chart, or from this site's perspective do you say the chart is BS.....or ......do you just man up and say that your rifle has never failed you in the past two years and 234 rounds?
BTW...the Volvo is still kick ass. My 6920 and my 17 year olds RRA Match Rifle/stool/scope/databook.......all the CMP competitiion sh!t fits in the manwagon. :sarcastic:
Get over the left and the rigth BS; they both are playing directly agaisnt us citizens anyways; gholding hands across the perceived political isles. How long does it take for you people to figure out the real sides here?
Preach it! I've been wondering that very question on here for a while. Most people however seem to be pretty well plugged into a side, and specific way of "thinking".
Minor point here....throughout my 12 years of public school system we were taught very little in history, mainly about how the Civil War was soley about slavery and we were taught about the civil rights movement (and not given the whole truth of either). That was it. NOTHING about the rest of our history as a nation (well, nothing other than a bit about the Pilgrims and a bit about Paul Revere and George Washington). The various wars we've been involved with, economic troubles, labor crisis, expansion, settling of the West, NONE of that was taught. Nor were we taught anything about the rest of the world.
LOL, you bring back memories of my very liberal elementary school in Montgomery Co. MD back in the early 70's.
From the education I received there, I would have thought this country's founding fathers were Harriet Tubman, George Washington Carver, and Cesar Chavez.
But then again, we didn't have grades, desks, or class schedules. Rather we had "stations" of various activities tenuously connected to learning, and we could float between them at our leisure. And this was up to 4th grade, not kindergarten.
Fortunately, I was judged to be gifted and given even more freedom to do whatever I wanted, so I stayed in the library reading books about WWII.
When my parents realized the insanity of this arrangement, they put me in private school for the rest of my school days.
LOL, you bring back memories of my very liberal elementary school in Montgomery Co. MD back in the early 70's.
From the education I received there, I would have thought this country's founding fathers were Harriet Tubman, George Washington Carver, and Cesar Chavez.
Although my education was in relatively conservative upstate SC in the '90s. GWC was a pretty cool dude, but one lesson would have covered him, not spending two weeks on him, same goes for the others. Spending a couple of weeks actually learning about the founding fathers would have been nice
But then again, we didn't have grades, desks, or class schedules. Rather we had "stations" of various activities tenuously connected to learning, and we could float between them at our leisure. And this was up to 4th grade, not kindergarten.
Fortunately, I was judged to be gifted and given even more freedom to do whatever I wanted, so I stayed in the library reading books about WWII.
Montessori style? (I don't know much about that method)
By the time the '90s rolled around, gifted kids were identified and marginilized, like I mention Ritalin earlier? My teachers tried to get Mom to dope me up on that shit so I would stop asking questions. I spent as much time in the library as possible and also read during recess, eating, etc to try to get in as much real learning as possible
When my parents realized the insanity of this arrangement, they put me in private school for the rest of my school days
While I realize private schools can have their own problems, and are costly, they or home schooling are really the best ways to go right now. The local private schools here have MUCH harder classes than the public schools and overall the students are much more prepared for the real world coming out. They also don't have behavioral problems (every day at my schools there were fights, idiots running screaming up and down the halls, idiots disrupting class)
.
About the only thing that went right about my education is they started a "gifted and talented" program about my 4th grade year and I was in that. We actually learned a bit in that, but it could have been expanded quite a bit.
Both of my kids go to a private Christian school for this very reason. My wife and I are involved in their school work everyday. I also make it a point to ask them what they have learned that day and have challenged them quite often. When we discuss things they have learned and I challenge what they are saying may be true my response/challenge is, "Prove me wrong". This is something my son really likes to do! He'll do everything possible to find out the correct info and prove me wrong. When he gloats and brags about it to his mother I can only smile in satisfaction. I've done my job! I've told him many times that part of my job as his father is to make sure I raise him and give him the tools to be better and more accomplished than me. I have to be more subtle with my daughter and challenge her in different ways to achieve the same results.
I also tell them to challenge what they are being taught and if they have doubts about what they are being told to prove the teachers wrong. If they come up with conflicting information I encourage them to go to their teachers and present it in a respectful manner.
The point of all of this is that we as parents must also teach our kids to be critical thinkers and to search for answers on their own. If we do not do our part then it is as much our fault as the systems fault for not doing so. All part of not being sheep.
jklaughrey
03-08-11, 10:27
The GATE program in CA in the late 70's early 80's was an affirmative action chest beating platform. I was in the gifted program from 2nd grade until 5th when it was determined that not enough "minorities" were in the program in our area. In our area "whites were the minority! Anyways half way through 5th grade all of the white male students, yeah 18 of us out 20 in the program were lined up and given a number 1-18. Then the "Hispanic" principal drew a number. Then said number 11 can stay in the program the rest of you will be placed in regular glasses according to grade. My friend Dan who was rather a cocky and well read politically, even at that age said. How come only one gets to stay. The principal said, "Well we have to keep one of you whites, now don't we". The next week the program was filled with hispanic and black boys/girls. Yeah, I told my parents about it, and I did the after school private tutor thing for awhile.
Quality teachers can absolutely make one hell of a difference. It's no coincidence that my second through fifth grade teachers (all were nationally recognized over the next decade) teaching classes that averaged 16 in size: have had their former students go on and eclips ENTIRE STATES for lists of accomplishments - to include two one perfect SAT/ACT student, and three within a point on the ACT that year (myself included), not to mention making up our state's contingent of MathCounts, Science Bowl, Science Fair, and other top accomplishing groups for years.
They taught so far and above beyond the standardized testing that they started giving our elementary classes the middle school achievement tests and we were still creating answer keys.
Our entire class could have taken an ASVAB at age 12 and been in the top quartile.
My high school experience was such a wash by comparison, I just stopped caring entirely. I got withdraw/failed from half my classes my senior year because I decided I'd be better off working on my science fair project and going to graduate seminars instead of reading To Kill a Mockingbird for the seventh god forsaken time. Only after learning how many high schoolers are stoned off their arses did I begin to comprehend why the entire student body demand better teaching.
Only learning how it's a systematic failure have I understood how incredibly unique and shaping my good teachers have been, and how much I owe the handful of great teachers.
IMHO, they don't teach kids to think because of the Political implications. Nowadays, our learning institutions are more interested in indoctrination than education. Since most of the teachers are overwhelmingly Liberal, do you really think they can restrain themselves from preaching at the pulpit? You hear horror stories all the time about teachers scolding children for expressing views or beliefs learned at home.
This, plus the desire from the government and corporate America for good drones to fill mind numbing positions where critical thinking would be disruptive to management goals. As a critical thinker, I'm continually considered a thorn in management's side when they want to implement something that's utterly ignorant. Almost every time a new policy is implemented, it's so they can check a box on a form that says they did something, while completely glossing over the fact that what they did was meaningless and ineffective. :(
Cagemonkey
03-09-11, 10:56
This, plus the desire from the government and corporate America for good drones to fill mind numbing positions where critical thinking would be disruptive to management goals. As a critical thinker, I'm continually considered a thorn in management's side when they want to implement something that's utterly ignorant. Almost every time a new policy is implemented, it's so they can check a box on a form that says they did something, while completely glossing over the fact that what they did was meaningless and ineffective. :(I agree. Using these tactics, their trying to divide society into two classes. The Elite and the Masses. Theirs no room in their minds for us Black Sheep.
Wow, really? Do you know Rahm Emanuel?.....
Or maybe the government should get out of education, and let teachers TEACH. Teachers cant get into critical thinking skills, they have to teach to mandatory standardized tests. Parents and Teachers arent worried about their kids learning, they are worried about them passing. Two totally different things.
Same goes for college. Thank god i had a few professors that required you to actually THINK, instead of being a "note-drone" (copy and regurgitate)
I'm certainly "blessed" with professors who are more interested in teaching us to learn and adapt to situations rather than simply regurgitate. :o off to study some calc :suicide:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.