AAR: Vickers Tactical 1-Day Basic Handgun Class - March 5, 2011 - Carthage, NC

[Watrdawg]

Hopefully this AAR does the course justice. First off a big thanks to Grey Group, LAV and the AI's for putting on this class.

I'd also really like to thank the person who picked up the jacket I left by accident and gave it to the guys at Grey Group. I didn't realize I left it Monday morning. Thankfully it's at the store and I just have to go down and pick it up.

The class started at 8:30am and the weather was perfect. I felt sorry for the next days Basic Carbine class because of the very wet weather forecast for that day. This was my 2nd class with LAV, the first was the Basic Carbine Course last Nov, and as expected I learned a lot. As others have said one of LAV's favorite sayings is "Speed is Fine Accuracy is Final". He really stresses accuracy and TRIGGER CONTROL!!

We started of with the tried and true empty shell casing on the front site dry fire drills and then built upon that basis. The main thing I like so far about LAV's classes is that they all start with a base and then building blocks of instruction are sequentially built upon that base. Each block of instruction is the basis for the next one. By then end of the day you are putting all of that instruction to good use. As stated earlier though everything is built upon TRIGGER CONTROL. Something else that is great about the way LAV teaches. He explains the purpose of every block of instruction and how it relates to the real world. Doing so, at least for me, really helps it sink in

We did dry fire drills, dummy and ball drills. Yes I said that backwards. LAV is the one who switched the terminology for that drill. The Dummy and Ball drills really helped me to realize when I was jerking the trigger. When I did my part I stayed in the X or 10 ring. When I jerked on the trigger, low and left. All of the drills were done at the ready and then repeated drawing frmo the holster. We shot a various distances for each drill. At times we were as close as 2 yards and then as far as 25 yards. 95% of the work was done within 10 yards. We also did various team drills. The great thing about the team drills is that you now have the pressure of not letting your team down. Well, unfortunately I did and more than once. One of the team drills we were shooting steel targets and I JERKED my trigger and missed a couple of times. The other team drill we did was a shooting on the move drill. Well I jerked my trigger again and was the cause of about half of our team points. LAV broke up the instruction with some confidence shooting. We all lined up to shoot 2 steel targets. we got 2 shots to hit the steel. We began at about 25 yards and then moved back. You got 2 shots at each distance. If you missed twice you were out. the last person hit the steel at about 90yards. I went out at about 50 yards or so. I've never shot a defensive handgun at that distance.

We broke for lunch about 11:30 and then got back to work about an hour later. After lunch there were more drills and then Shooting on the Move drills. We started SOTM by walking forward, starting at about 15 yards and then on the BEEP at about 10 yards trying to place 4 rounds in the black of the bullseye targets. This really emphasized how bad my trigger control was. I had a very hard time keeping my rounds in the black. I kept maybe 75% of them in the black. A couple ended up in the cardboard. We did forward SOTM drils about 5-6 times then we did it moving backwards. LAV told us that a lot of people are more accurate walking backwards than forwards. That was definitely the case with me. My sight picture was a lot more steady than moving forward.

Well by 4pm or so all of us were getting a bit tired. Even though this was a basic class it was a lot of detailed instruction that we all really sank out teeth into. It wasn't that we were physically tired. Itr was more of being brain dead.

We had a good cross section of people in class. There was at least 1 LEO and and 1 magazine editor. The rest of us were a mix of civilians and ex military. We even had a woman in class. There were 17 of us total. The LEO and Editor were about the best 2 shooters in the class. We also hada a good cross section of weapons being shot. The 2 main weapons being used were Glocks and M&P's. We had a couple of H&K's a 1911 and a Sig226. we didn't have any real weapons break down. We did have a couple of ammunition related malfunctions though. I don't know what kind of weapons they were shooting but the ammunition was Blazer ammo. Most of the people shot 9mm's but we had a good number of 45's also. I may have missed a weapon or two though. People came from all over to take this class. They came from as far north as Wisc and Illinois. My parter, xarmyguy77 Tom, for most of the class came down from Illinois. He shot pretty well also. He definitley blew me away when we were doing SOTM drills.

Overall it was a great class. Everything flowed smoothly and each step of the way was thoroughly explained and demonstrated. LAV has a great , relaxed, easy to understand way of explaining things. There is at least 1 other Basic Handgun class AAR here and our class went pretty much the same way as that one. That is why I didn't really get into all of the various drills into too much detail about them. I am taking his 2 day Level-1 Handgun class the first weekend in April and i will definitley be doing a lot of dry-firing between now and then. Unfortunately I may not be able to get any range time between now and then to practice a few of the live fire drills we did. I have a lot to work on and hopefully I will shoot a lot better next month.

[VA_Dinger]

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

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Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

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[NCPatrolAR]

Here's a few pictures I took before I had to leave in the afternoon.

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[Bill Lance]

I want to start off by thanking Grey Group for hosting this class, Larry for teaching, the AI's for their work, and my partners in crime for accompanying me to this training class.

I have to echo Watrdawg's comments pretty much to a "T".

I told people before the class that if Larry Vickers was doing a class on how to throw a frisbee, I would want to go. I was not disappointed. Larry is the so efficient and professional in his presentation, it is hard to convey --especially in written form. Every drill, every trigger press, every [I]word[I] has a purpose. Nothing, NOTHING is wasted time or effort. Building block instruction done perfectly.
The real-world safety brief was definitely something I will take away. And the re-enforcement of something I knew in my thick skull----proper trigger press is KING. Mess that up, and you will have a bad shot. With LAV standing at my shoulder, I even snatched on a dry-fire---talk about wilting under the pressure:rolleyes:

The team drills, as described, were excellent at adding a tiny bit of pressure---people are watching, and your team is counting on you!!!!

The class was covered so well in the earlier post, and I do not want to repeat, so I will close by saying this class was most, most excellent.
I know how Larry and Ken Hackathorn work so closely together, so I have signed up for Ken's class this fall. Another instructor I anticipate highly.

Thanks again to Grey Group, Larry A. Vickers, Chris, Amp, and my training partners. You guys did great-----now chime in here!!!:dance3:

Bill Lance

[randyha]

I echo Bill Lance in thanking Grey Group, Larry A. Vickers, Chris & Amp. I traveled from the Seattle area (actually a bit north of Seattle) and was NOT disappointed in quality of the class. The class was casual and fun, yet professionally run, safe, well paced, and extremely well sequenced. Larry packs a lot into one day and knows how much a person can absorb before hitting the wall. He actually pinpoints when the whole class finally hits the wall. There was a range of experience withing the student group, myself being at the beginning part of the learning curve, even though I'm leaning toward the latter part of age curve. Everyone was friendly and supportive. There was never a time where I felt out of place or that anyone was there to show themselves better that another...the message is...enroll in an LAV class!

Larry is not just the best at his skill, but he can teach. He has the combination of unparalleled experience and the unique ability to be able to properly sequence concepts, each building on the other, to explain things in a way that is immediately understandable, and is immediately usable and repeatable. Simple doesn't necessarily mean easy, however. I still punched a lot of holes outside of the black and in white, and sometimes outside the white and in the cardboard. When I did, I could tell what I was doing wrong; usually it was "El Snatcho". Trigger control is the basis for everything.

What I took away was confidence that I could practice on my own and increase my skill level after the class without worrying that I was going to be spending hours and ammo on reinforcing bad technique and not knowing how to improve with practice. I will be putting it, and myself to the test.

Would I take another class from Larry Vickers, the Grey Goup? Yes! In less that a heartbeat. I've already enrolled in another one. If you have ever hesitated, just do it now. You will not regret it.

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By randyha7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/randyha7) at 2011-03-08

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By randyha7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/randyha7) at 2011-03-08

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By randyha7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/randyha7) at 2011-03-08

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By randyha7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/randyha7) at 2011-03-08

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By randyha7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/randyha7) at 2011-03-08

[Bill Lance]

Come on guys-----17 in class, and three reviews:confused:

[Bill Lance]

Oh, and Randyha----excellent pictures....

[xarmyguy77]

I would like to thank LAV and Grey Group for giving me the opportunity to start my formal training with the best in the business. Instead of going through all the drills we did I will comment on some of the on the spot corrections LAV and his AI's gave me personally.
First and most importantly I was pretty well aquainted with Mr. El Snatcho, but after many drills I think I had him under control. Next I was guilty of resting my strong hand thumb on the extended slide release of my glock. Definately a bad habit. Also they corrected my support hand grip right off the batt and what a difference that made! After he told me to firmly wrap up the other hand tight up to the trigger guard I had much more control. Next LAV and Chris corrected me on reloads. I was keeping the glock extended all the way out in front of me. They had me bring it close to my face. This definately improved my reload time and Im positive will help me in matches. Also LAV corrected my use of the strong side thumb to release the slide on reloads.
Couple days before class I broke my rear tritium on the glock. I installed a new rear but brought the wrong allen key to re-tighten it when it came loose late into the steel distance shoot. Didnt stop me from hitting it at 50yds though.
Also I learned a lesson about flying to classes. Airline only allowed 11lbs of ammo, but I didnt want to risk an issue with my gear not arriving. I thought I would have no issue flying in late Friday and grabbing at 24hr walmart. I even called twice to confirm. Wrong no ammo after 10pm in NC. Next time I will definately bring my allotment on plane.

[NCPatrolAR]

Next time I will definately bring my allotment on plane.

You can also look into sending your ammo to the class host/training site prior to your arrival. Just contact the host and ask about doing this.

[xarmyguy77]

Well I wasnt done with the review. Iphone screwed me up.
Anyway I also learned that fobus holsters are crap. I will use mine for matches until it breaks but wont bother replacing. I learned alot about equipment selection in these two classes. Came into play more on rainy carbine day.
Oh also I was one of the people guilty of always keeping trigger to the rear after shots and slowly resetting. Ive always done it this way but LAV pointed out and had us drill resetting it as slide comes back forward. Much faster way of doing things.
Another point Larry brought up and Ive heard it before is not to modify your home defense or cc pistol. Im highly guilty of this. My glock has virtually every part modified. My trigger is probably in 3lb range. I have practically no reset in trigger. Anyway I took it to heart coming from Mr. Vickers. Im gonna pick up another glock and keep it stock for cc and home use. No reason to set yourself up for a lawsuit!
I definately came away from this class with more than I knew going into it. I plan on taking many more Vickers and Grey Group classes. Thanks to my new buddy Jim, i had a blast at class and look forward to more.
So lastly I think no matter your skill level beginner to advanced it never hurts to build a strong foundation from one of the best trainers in the world.

[Watrdawg]

I definitely have a lot to work on to get ready for the Level 1 Class the beginning of April. I'll be doing A LOT of dry firing between now and then. Hopefully "El Snatcho" won't raise his ugly head during that class.

[NCPatrolAR]

I definitely have a lot to work on to get ready for the Level 1 Class the beginning of April. I'll be doing A LOT of dry firing between now and then. Hopefully "El Snatcho" won't raise his ugly head during that class.

Work on that floating index finger you have on your left hand too ;)

[Watrdawg]

Will do!!. Ever since you pointed that out to me on the line I'm very cognizant of it.

[C4IGrant]

Damn, that's a nice shirt "The LAV" is wearing. :D



C4

[Watrdawg]

Grant,

To be honest when I first saw the shirt on site here I kinda thought the design looked a bit hooky. When LAV put it on and I got a real life view of it I completely changed my mind. The design on the back actually looks pretty good! I'm going to have to get me one.

[C4IGrant]

Grant,

To be honest when I first saw the shirt on site here I kinda thought the design looked a bit hooky. When LAV put it on and I got a real life view of it I completely changed my mind. The design on the back actually looks pretty good! I'm going to have to get me one.

"hooky?" We don't do "hooky!" ;)


C4

[GrandPooba]

I echo Bill Lance in thanking Grey Group, Larry A. Vickers, Chris & Amp. I traveled from the Seattle area (actually a bit north of Seattle) and was NOT disappointed in quality of the class.

any advice on traveling to a training course? Did you ship your ammo ahead of time or did you buy it when you arrived in NC? What about checking in your firearm at the airport - any particular airlines to avoid or was it a fairly straightforward process?

[randyha]

any advice on traveling to a training course? Did you ship your ammo ahead of time or did you buy it when you arrived in NC? What about checking in your firearm at the airport - any particular airlines to avoid or was it a fairly straightforward process?

I arrived a day early and purchased ammo in Fayetteville. Usually the same at other destinations. Call ahead and you can get hooked up. There's always someone in the system, class, M4C, etc to help give directions and advise. First time I went to Fayetteville, I called Grey Group for advice. Going to Ohio, I called C4IGrant, etc. If Feyetteville is where you are going, I went to Jim's at 4632 Yadkin Rd. Be sure and stop by Grey Group at 560 N Reily Rd. (Both are in Fayetteville).

I have travelled with ammo, but you need to check your airline and TSA for current regs. There are weight and packing limits. Even though the regs state that ammo should be in their origianl boxes, I have travelled with P-Mags and Glock Mags all full...well, actually downloaded 2 per mag after a Vickers class. :)

I like to carry a lot of mags to class, fill then the night before class, and not worry about loading mags during class.

I have Pelican cases. You will need padlocks that only you can open. When you check a firearm, they will ask you if they are loaded (no being the appropriate answer), ask you to sign a form and place it inside the case that the firearms is in, then you lock it, and keep the key.

I have insured mine occasionally. Depending on what you have in the case, you could easily exceed the maximum value the airline will pay. You should look this up also for your particular airline. The upside is obvious if lost, the downside is paying for it, and getting it. I have found the I know more about this than any attendant I have asked to do it. Only once has the person at the counter even known that it existed. If you want to do this, the first time I recommend you do your research with your particular airline, get to the airport very early for your flight, and be patient and helpful with the person at the counter.

Once are done ticketing and checking bags, and they put all kinds of stickers and tags on your case, the airline attendant ( at least in my experience) takes control of the case, takes it to a TSA scanner (you can walk with them, but not carry or touch the case), then it disappears on a conveyor belt and hopefully gets put on your airplane.

Delta says that you need to pick it up on the arrival side at the excess/oversize baggage office. At smaller airports (which most of them are) this doesn't happen. Often it will be brought out by an airline employee to the baggage carousel, but I've seen it just spit out with the rest of the luggage unattended at small airports. You need to be vigilant and ask a lot of questions, if you can find someone. I've stood around a carousel once and just as my case almost got to me, the guy in front of me picked it up, as a joke it turned out, and quickly put it down. I thought I was going to have a major issue, but all worked out.

The airlines usually keep a pretty good look out since it would be a big hassle for them to loose such an item. But, the airlines are staffed by individual, and it happens. I worry more about a whole case going missing that any one item in a locked case, or in any baggage for that matter.

Check regs at your destination and any stops on the way. Maybe even any reasonably possible diversions. Worst story I read about was in NY where a guy picked up his luggage after the plane was diverted and got arrested because his set up was illegal there. If you have NFA items, check a whole lot more.

All in all it hasn't been a big deal, actually pretty routine. Except for the insurance, it's all a big yawn (in my experience) at the counter. No one cares. I fly a lot....I mean a lot....so I'm pretty used to it anyway.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Randy

[SHIVAN]

I've taken quite a lot of instruction with Larry, including some pretty advanced concept stuff for a civvie. I took LAV's basic pistol last year at Drake's Landing, and as always, I learned something new or different that needed work.

You never stop learning, and no matter how far you go in shooting, you can always use a basic course. Just look at those shooter's on History Channel's Top Shot show...

I recommend this class to just about everyone, as in some cases it may be more important than learning how to shoot rollover prone with a carbine, or how to shoot five variations of kneeling, etc.

Great reviews, thanks guys!

[GrandPooba]

I arrived a day early and purchased ammo in Fayetteville. Usually the same at other destinations. Call ahead and you can get hooked up. There's always someone in the system, class, M4C, etc to help give directions and advise. First time I went to Fayetteville, I called Grey Group for advice. Going to Ohio, I called C4IGrant, etc. If Feyetteville is where you are going, I went to Jim's at 4632 Yadkin Rd. Be sure and stop by Grey Group at 560 N Reily Rd. (Both are in Fayetteville).

I have travelled with ammo, but you need to check your airline and TSA for current regs. There are weight and packing limits. Even though the regs state that ammo should be in their origianl boxes, I have travelled with P-Mags and Glock Mags all full...well, actually downloaded 2 per mag after a Vickers class. :)

I like to carry a lot of mags to class, fill then the night before class, and not worry about loading mags during class.

I have Pelican cases. You will need padlocks that only you can open. When you check a firearm, they will ask you if they are loaded (no being the appropriate answer), ask you to sign a form and place it inside the case that the firearms is in, then you lock it, and keep the key.

I have insured mine occasionally. Depending on what you have in the case, you could easily exceed the maximum value the airline will pay. You should look this up also for your particular airline. The upside is obvious if lost, the downside is paying for it, and getting it. I have found the I know more about this than any attendant I have asked to do it. Only once has the person at the counter even known that it existed. If you want to do this, the first time I recommend you do your research with your particular airline, get to the airport very early for your flight, and be patient and helpful with the person at the counter.

Once are done ticketing and checking bags, and they put all kinds of stickers and tags on your case, the airline attendant ( at least in my experience) takes control of the case, takes it to a TSA scanner (you can walk with them, but not carry or touch the case), then it disappears on a conveyor belt and hopefully gets put on your airplane.

Delta says that you need to pick it up on the arrival side at the excess/oversize baggage office. At smaller airports (which most of them are) this doesn't happen. Often it will be brought out by an airline employee to the baggage carousel, but I've seen it just spit out with the rest of the luggage unattended at small airports. You need to be vigilant and ask a lot of questions, if you can find someone. I've stood around a carousel once and just as my case almost got to me, the guy in front of me picked it up, as a joke it turned out, and quickly put it down. I thought I was going to have a major issue, but all worked out.

The airlines usually keep a pretty good look out since it would be a big hassle for them to loose such an item. But, the airlines are staffed by individual, and it happens. I worry more about a whole case going missing that any one item in a locked case, or in any baggage for that matter.

Check regs at your destination and any stops on the way. Maybe even any reasonably possible diversions. Worst story I read about was in NY where a guy picked up his luggage after the plane was diverted and got arrested because his set up was illegal there. If you have NFA items, check a whole lot more.

All in all it hasn't been a big deal, actually pretty routine. Except for the insurance, it's all a big yawn (in my experience) at the counter. No one cares. I fly a lot....I mean a lot....so I'm pretty used to it anyway.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Randy

thanks for the advice. This is very helpful