View Full Version : Objective look at Spike's SAR Rail
My opinions on what is currently known about this rail...
Pros:
- Light titanium barrel nut makes it the lightest quad rail I believe.
- I don't have the dimensions but I think they're on par with the better rails.
- QD points
- Includes ladder rail covers
Cons:
- (This is the biggest con for me and I know it upsets some people so I wanted some objective opinions)
The flange that clamps the rail to the barrel nut is way too far below and snug against the hinge pin. It looks like it would contact the mag well and prevent the rifle from fully shotgunning open and as such may have the same problems that have been mentioned with Troy/VTAC extreme rails.
- For very little more money I can get a DD Omega X (If all you're looking for is weight savings then this is a moot point)
Mr. Goodtimes
03-09-11, 18:26
I wouldn't buy anything from Spikes. I've done business with them and wont be doing any more in the future. I'd go with something of known quality. The DD rails are really nice as are Larue. I personally love Larue. If weight was a concern I'd go with a DD Lite Rail.
Both the BAR and SAR rails are incredible. I love the profile on the SAR. It's much thinner and very lite. Seekins precision did some job with it's design. I believe you are gonna start to see these rails gain favor in the AR community.
As far as doing business with Spikes. As I have stated in the past. I have only had great results over the course of many products ordered.
An Undocumented Worker
03-09-11, 18:45
The titanium barrel nut alone is enough to turn me off of that product.
Coming from mountain biking, a sport that has a long history of usage with exotic metals. Titanium and Aluminum do not play nice together. Titanium has a habit of galling and siezing up on threaded interfaces, the larger the threads, the worse the issue is. Aluminum also has this issue to a lesser degree. When dealing with bicycle parts made of titanium (all alloys of it) antisieze is mandatory on any threaded interface, as well as press fit interfaces. Otherwise the part may never come apart again without damage. These are all on parts that do not see any heat cycling like you will find on a firearm.
Being that the barrel nut sees some of the most intense heatloads on an AR that makes it an even worse location for exotic and tempermental materials. Not to mention the possibility of the antisieze being cooked off of that junction.
So unless you want to run the risk of having the barrel permanently affixed to the upper reciever, I personally would steer clear of this idea.
Perhaps there are some aircraft engine techs on here who have a better understanding of Titanium, and I could be wrong. If so please let me know.
When I emailed them to ask what wrench fits the barrel nut, the CEO told me to use a "regular old 1 1/8 wrench or adjustable wrench." Seems like a poor suggestion not to use a torque wrench on such a sophisticated barrel nut. A set of crows foot wrenches to fit a torque wrench are not cheap.
The titanium barrel nut alone is enough to turn me off of that product.
Coming from mountain biking, a sport that has a long history of usage with exotic metals. Titanium and Aluminum do not play nice together. Titanium has a habit of galling and siezing up on threaded interfaces, the larger the threads, the worse the issue is. Aluminum also has this issue to a lesser degree. When dealing with bicycle parts made of titanium (all alloys of it) antisieze is mandatory on any threaded interface, as well as press fit interfaces. Otherwise the part may never come apart again without damage. These are all on parts that do not see any heat cycling like you will find on a firearm.
Being that the barrel nut sees some of the most intense heatloads on an AR that makes it an even worse location for exotic and tempermental materials. Not to mention the possibility of the antisieze being cooked off of that junction.
So unless you want to run the risk of having the barrel permanently affixed to the upper reciever, I personally would steer clear of this idea.
Perhaps there are some aircraft engine techs on here who have a better understanding of Titanium, and I could be wrong. If so please let me know.
You are supposed to moly your barrel nuts in general. Titanium is actually very dimensionally stable with respect to moderate heat, aluminum is the stuff that will kink itself in direct sunlight. (I've put a lot of dissimilar metal parts in the freezer to unseize them.)
This is not an endorsement of this product just some info.
My opinions on what is currently known about this rail...
Pros:
- Light titanium barrel nut makes it the lightest quad rail I believe.
- I don't have the dimensions but I think they're on par with the better rails.
- QD points
- Includes ladder rail covers
Cons:
- (This is the biggest con for me and I know it upsets some people so I wanted some objective opinions)
The flange that clamps the rail to the barrel nut is way too far below and snug against the hinge pin. It looks like it would contact the mag well and prevent the rifle from fully shotgunning open and as such may have the same problems that have been mentioned with Troy/VTAC extreme rails.
- For very little more money I can get a DD Omega X (If all you're looking for is weight savings then this is a moot point)
Do you have one?
EzGoingKev
03-10-11, 05:04
Perhaps there are some aircraft engine techs on here who have a better understanding of Titanium, and I could be wrong. If so please let me know.
Not an aircraft tech but have used a lot of Ti hardware when I used to work on race bikes (motorcycles).
We had Ti fasteners on pretty much everything. Stuff that saw heat and stuff that did not. Stuff that came apart all the time and stuff that never came apart. We never had any issues with the Ti fasteners in aluminum or steel.
In most cases a barrel nut goes on and stays on. It is not like you take it off every time after you shoot to clean the rifle. Use a good high temp lube and you will not have any issues with the Ti.
Do you have one?
I don't.
If you are looking for a light weight rail that is high quality, you might want to check out the new one from Centurion Arms. CA stuff is known high quality, no problems there.
If you are just looking for info on the ST rail, I've got no first hand experience.
bullitt5172
03-10-11, 11:40
I picked up a ST-22 complete .22LR upper with the SAR rail and I'm impressed with it so far. Looks good, feels good and seems light. The machining on them is excellent. There is a small tab just below the upper rail that aligns the rail with the upper. Seems to be perfectly aligned, nice touch. It's no better than DD or LaRue, it's no worse either IMO. Only thing I'm not happy with is the QD swivels, they do not have anti-rotation limiters so the QD can spin freely. Other than that, it's a nice rail.
ETA - I have rails from all three, DD/LaRue/Spikes so I am basing my observations on experience with them all.
I picked up a ST-22 complete .22LR upper with the SAR rail and I'm impressed with it so far. Looks good, feels good and seems light. The machining on them is excellent. There is a small tab just below the upper rail that aligns the rail with the upper. Seems to be perfectly aligned, nice touch. It's no better than DD or LaRue, it's no worse either IMO. Only thing I'm not happy with is the QD swivels, they do not have anti-rotation limiters so the QD can spin freely. Other than that, it's a nice rail.
ETA - I have rails from all three, DD/LaRue/Spikes so I am basing my observations on experience with them all.
So will the rifle open on the hinge pin as far as the others? That was my main concern.
I wouldn't buy anything from Spikes. I've done business with them and wont be doing any more in the future. I'd go with something of known quality. The DD rails are really nice as are Larue. I personally love Larue. If weight was a concern I'd go with a DD Lite Rail.
Why dont you like spikes?
Read his thread entitled, "MY TERRIBLE FIRST BUILD THANKS TO SPIKES TACTICAL". He got jerked around pretty good by their CS. I dont blame him for not giving them any future business. Granted, they claimed that the employee he dealt with quit his job in the midst of the transaction, but still. I woulda been pissed.
I ONLY started this thread to discuss the pros and cons of their rail not the company itself. Please keep it related to that.
Read his thread entitled, "MY TERRIBLE FIRST BUILD THANKS TO SPIKES TACTICAL". He got jerked around pretty good by their CS. I dont blame him for not giving them any future business. Granted, they claimed that the employee he dealt with quit his job in the midst of the transaction, but still. I woulda been pissed.
Wow. That woulda pissed me off too. Poor guy. I dont think I could have been that calm. I have what doctors call a little bit of an "anger problem". I feel like a piece of shit now for having a good experiences wit Spikes lol
Mr. Goodtimes
03-10-11, 14:08
Read his thread entitled, "MY TERRIBLE FIRST BUILD THANKS TO SPIKES TACTICAL". He got jerked around pretty good by their CS. I dont blame him for not giving them any future business. Granted, they claimed that the employee he dealt with quit his job in the midst of the transaction, but still. I woulda been pissed.
That wasn't me but I had a similar shity experience.
Why dont you like spikes?
Without derailing this thread too bad, heres why....
I decided to buy my first upper reciever during the huge scare right after the annointed one was elected. I had always wanted an AR-15 and decided that if Obama got elected I was going to go ahead and buy one; even though I didn't really have the disposable income. I figured I would eat some ramen for a month.
My dad had bought a Spikes Tactical complete upper as well as a stripped lower and LPK from them (I'll ellaborate on this later). I saw his and saw that the "fit and finish" was awesome. I read around on TOS and saw all the rave reviews about Spikes. People were saying they were nicer than Colt, much better than bushmaster etc... I didn't know what the hell milspec was but I knew thats what you wanted.
I called up sikes and asked them some questions, one of which was "is your rifle milspec?" They claimed it was. I was trusting in that these people that build these things for a living know what they're talking about. I went ahead and bought my upper from them.
My upper came with:
Barrel: 16in M4 profile 1/7 twist MP w/ M4 cuts
FSB: F marked
Upper Receiver: M4 cut
BCG: AR-15 Carrier, gas key not properly staked, no HP or MPI on the bolt. Blue extractor insert.
Before finding this site I also decided to purchase a Larue 7.0 rail and install it my self. I was not able to hammer out the taper pins; one came out, however, the other was too stuborn.
So I called up my buddies at spikes to see if they could do it. "Sure we can do it, send us the rail and upper and we will have it done within the week." I was quoted a $60 price. This was on a monday morning. Friday rolls around and I have recieved no tracking number that my upper was shipped, no upper, and no phone call about what the situation is on it.
The following monday I call the shop and am told they were unable to get the taper pin out. The only option is a new barrel, or to cut the FSB off and replace with a flip up FSB. Well WTF? I don't have money for a new barrel, and the reason I ordered a 7.0 and not an 11.0 was so I could keep my FSB.
I ask what a good flip up FSB is and the guy recommends a... wait for it... Yankee Hill Machine flip up FSB. I ask "Is this a sturdy option? This is a serious use rifle that needs to be 110% reliable." The rep responded that it was very sturdy and ther was no way the screws would work their way loose. I give them the go ahead.
A week and $180.00 later I have my upper back and take it to the range for a nice day of shooting. 500 ish rounds later my rifle starts short stroking. I check the FSB, it's canted. After letting the rifle cool down I notice three of the four allen screws are able to be removed by hand. They were never even loctited with red loctite or rockset.
I call Spikes back and am told by a different person "Oh no, the Yankee Hill Machine clamp on FSB is not for serious use, there must have been a misunderstanding." Spikes offered to SELL me a new barrel with FSB. I'll pass. I start looking around at Colts and ran across this website when searching for Colt 6920.
It didnt take long to discover that I got raped by Spikes (twice) without even the common courtesy of a reach around. I will never buy ANYTHING from Spikes Tactical again after those experiences.
Here are some other gyms:
- I saw them at a gun show selling DD uppers on their lowers claiming them as their own.
- They told my dad that his 1/9 CL upper with no HPI, MPI barrel or bolt was milspec and that the CMMG 2 stage trigger they wold him was better than an overpriced Gisselle.
-I saw them in the local gun shop sometime last year trying to pimp their garbage to the owner. They were all wearing 9in boots with their chocolate chip camo bottoms bloused. They looked like a bunch of ass clowns.
-There is a thread some where on here where either the owner or one of their reps has a total meltdown after getting called out about no adhearing to the milspec.
So... Thats why I dont buy from spikes, and thats why I think Spikes is a joke.
That wasn't me but I had a similar shity experience.
Without derailing this thread too bad, heres why....
I decided to buy my first upper reciever during the huge scare right after the annointed one was elected. I had always wanted an AR-15 and decided that if Obama got elected I was going to go ahead and buy one; even though I didn't really have the disposable income. I figured I would eat some ramen for a month.
My dad had bought a Spikes Tactical complete upper as well as a stripped lower and LPK from them (I'll ellaborate on this later). I saw his and saw that the "fit and finish" was awesome. I read around on TOS and saw all the rave reviews about Spikes. People were saying they were nicer than Colt, much better than bushmaster etc... I didn't know what the hell milspec was but I knew thats what you wanted.
I called up sikes and asked them some questions, one of which was "is your rifle milspec?" They claimed it was. I was trusting in that these people that build these things for a living know what they're talking about. I went ahead and bought my upper from them.
My upper came with:
Barrel: 16in M4 profile 1/7 twist MP w/ M4 cuts
FSB: F marked
Upper Receiver: M4 cut
BCG: AR-15 Carrier, gas key not properly staked, no HP or MPI on the bolt. Blue extractor insert.
Before finding this site I also decided to purchase a Larue 7.0 rail and install it my self. I was not able to hammer out the taper pins; one came out, however, the other was too stuborn.
So I called up my buddies at spikes to see if they could do it. "Sure we can do it, send us the rail and upper and we will have it done within the week." I was quoted a $60 price. This was on a monday morning. Friday rolls around and I have recieved no tracking number that my upper was shipped, no upper, and no phone call about what the situation is on it.
The following monday I call the shop and am told they were unable to get the taper pin out. The only option is a new barrel, or to cut the FSB off and replace with a flip up FSB. Well WTF? I don't have money for a new barrel, and the reason I ordered a 7.0 and not an 11.0 was so I could keep my FSB.
I ask what a good flip up FSB is and the guy recommends a... wait for it... Yankee Hill Machine flip up FSB. I ask "Is this a sturdy option? This is a serious use rifle that needs to be 110% reliable." The rep responded that it was very sturdy and ther was no way the screws would work their way loose. I give them the go ahead.
A week and $180.00 later I have my upper back and take it to the range for a nice day of shooting. 500 ish rounds later my rifle starts short stroking. I check the FSB, it's canted. After letting the rifle cool down I notice three of the four allen screws are able to be removed by hand. They were never even loctited with red loctite or rockset.
I call Spikes back and am told by a different person "Oh no, the Yankee Hill Machine clamp on FSB is not for serious use, there must have been a misunderstanding." Spikes offered to SELL me a new barrel with FSB. I'll pass. I start looking around at Colts and ran across this website when searching for Colt 6920.
It didnt take long to discover that I got raped by Spikes (twice) without even the common courtesy of a reach around. I will never buy ANYTHING from Spikes Tactical again after those experiences.
Here are some other gyms:
- I saw them at a gun show selling DD uppers on their lowers claiming them as their own.
- They told my dad that his 1/9 CL upper with no HPI, MPI barrel or bolt was milspec and that the CMMG 2 stage trigger they wold him was better than an overpriced Gisselle.
-I saw them in the local gun shop sometime last year trying to pimp their garbage to the owner. They were all wearing 9in boots with their chocolate chip camo bottoms bloused. They looked like a bunch of ass clowns.
-There is a thread some where on here where either the owner or one of their reps has a total meltdown after getting called out about no adhearing to the milspec.
So... Thats why I dont buy from spikes, and thats why I think Spikes is a joke.
The OP was asking about the SAR rail and repeated it. Whats not to get.
Nightvisionary
03-11-11, 03:00
Never mind
The OP was asking about the SAR rail and repeated it. Whats not to get.
Because someone asked him to. Pretty simple, actually.
jklaughrey
03-11-11, 10:53
The OP was asking about the SAR rail and repeated it. Whats not to get.
Vaj quit trolling for arguments!
I'm a thin film metallurgist, and Ti should be extremely stable at hi temp. Al is the one to watch out for at lowrr temperatures. A far as threads seizing, spalling abd the like, that lies outside my area. The only drawback to Ti is it can get pricey. And its ppowder likes to start on fire.
FYI we got Al to flow before its melting point of 600C. It was in high prrssure ovens, but there was serious migration, even at 300c.
Spike's Quality issues and CS issues aside...
The SAR rail looks more like it is designed to look cool vs actual function IMHO.
The side rails do not go all the way to the ends where it would be needed most, instead it has nice purdy contours to look cool.
IMHO The "Lightening holes" are too large and could be a chinese finger trap for those with smaller fingers, especially in a stressful situation, which could have a pretty severe outcome. Again it appears these large holes are for looks and possible bragging rights at being light??.. just a guess.
The quality of the attachment details are sub-standard with welds that looked like I did it (see pics)..LOL
All in all a "Cool" looking rail, and may or may not be the lightest Quad rail available,... but it does appear to be the least functional and least quality of the quad rails available in that category.
I'll pass... :no:
http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_WxlrhdDsogw/TV3g3TPxS1I/AAAAAAAAA2Q/M7O6pAZzqj4/SAR%20rail%202.JPG
http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_WxlrhdDsogw/TV3g3sDWb_I/AAAAAAAAA2U/6T6-GzqHipg/SAR%20rail%201.JPG
Spike's Quality issues and CS issues aside...
The SAR rail looks more like it is designed to look cool vs actual function IMHO.
The side rails do not go all the way to the ends where it would be needed most, instead it has nice purdy contours to look cool.
IMHO The "Lightening holes" are too large and could be a chinese finger trap for those with smaller fingers, especially in a stressful situation, which could have a pretty severe outcome. Again it appears these large holes are for looks and possible bragging rights at being light??.. just a guess.
The quality of the attachment details are sub-standard with welds that looked like I did it (see pics)..LOL
All in all a "Cool" looking rail, and may or may not be the lightest Quad rail available,... but it does appear to be the least functional and least quality of the quad rails available in that category.
I'll pass... :no:
http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_WxlrhdDsogw/TV3g3TPxS1I/AAAAAAAAA2Q/M7O6pAZzqj4/SAR%20rail%202.JPG
http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_WxlrhdDsogw/TV3g3sDWb_I/AAAAAAAAA2U/6T6-GzqHipg/SAR%20rail%201.JPG
Daniel Defense Lite rails have welds. Cleaner and not as noticeable but they are there (as Spikes is quick to point out on TOS)
Could the holes be large enough to allow your fingers to touch the barrel?
I'm guessing the torx mounting screws go into helicoils.
Even if I wanted one which I'm thinking I won't, they are still very pricey with all of these issues.
Daniel Defense Lite rails have welds. Cleaner and not as noticeable but they are there (as Spikes is quick to point out on TOS)
Could the holes be large enough to allow your fingers to touch the barrel?
I'm guessing the torx mounting screws go into helicoils.
Even if I wanted one which I'm thinking I won't, they are still very pricey with all of these issues.
No doubt you can touch the barrel depending on finger size...and even some men less blessed than me could stick their di...... , err, nevermind :-)
Yeah, there is a "slight' difference in welds. I also find it interesting that another Lite rail that comes out long after DD's Lite rail that has to have welds in the same basic area for the same reason (separately machined mounting base)......very interesting indeed.
But I bet they aren't too quick to mention that on TOS. :sarcastic:
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_WxlrhdDsogw/TV3g4H_dJbI/AAAAAAAAA2Y/bC_GKrYWwds/s576/DD%20Lite%20Rail.jpg
Spike's Quality issues and CS issues aside...
The SAR rail looks more like it is designed to look cool vs actual function IMHO.
The side rails do not go all the way to the ends where it would be needed most, instead it has nice purdy contours to look cool.
IMHO The "Lightening holes" are too large and could be a chinese finger trap for those with smaller fingers, especially in a stressful situation, which could have a pretty severe outcome. Again it appears these large holes are for looks and possible bragging rights at being light??.. just a guess.
The quality of the attachment details are sub-standard with welds that looked like I did it (see pics)..LOL
All in all a "Cool" looking rail, and may or may not be the lightest Quad rail available,... but it does appear to be the least functional and least quality of the quad rails available in that category.
I'll pass... :no:
http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_WxlrhdDsogw/TV3g3TPxS1I/AAAAAAAAA2Q/M7O6pAZzqj4/SAR%20rail%202.JPG
http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_WxlrhdDsogw/TV3g3sDWb_I/AAAAAAAAA2U/6T6-GzqHipg/SAR%20rail%201.JPG
I brought up the end rail issue when these were in development and I got told I didn't know what I was talking about.
:rolleyes:
justin_247
03-12-11, 09:12
I have drank the Daniel Defense, KAC, and Troy/VTAC kool-aid, and I like it. Those are some rails for serious users, especially the former two.
It seems like Spike's had two goals with these rails: (1) cut weight, (2) look cool. The piccatinny rails do not look like they are tall enough to meet the spec, they don't extend all the way to the front, and they almost look fragile. I'll pass, especially since we have ultra-light offerings from Centurion Arms now.
I have drank the Daniel Defense, KAC, and Troy/VTAC kool-aid, and I like it. Those are some rails for serious users, especially the former two.
It seems like Spike's had two goals with these rails: (1) cut weight, (2) look cool. The piccatinny rails do not look like they are tall enough to meet the spec, they don't extend all the way to the front, and they almost look fragile. I'll pass, especially since we have ultra-light offerings from Centurion Arms now.
Yes, the new Centurion Arms rails look good from what I have seen in pictures. I like some of the details, especially down in front of the pivot pin area. looks like there will be less interference with the lower receiver than some other rails...and they did a nice job of making it functional and look good.
Yes, the new Centurion Arms rails look good from what I have seen in pictures. I like some of the details, especially down in front of the pivot pin area. looks like there will be less interference with the lower receiver than some other rails...and they did a nice job of making it functional and look good.
It's a phenomenal rail when you see it in person. I bought one but unfortunately I'm having to sell it fairly cheap. It's a 12" over in the equipment exchange.
Some may find the information here (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNGblVaTWtaTkYyRFE&output=html) to be germane to the discussion at hand.
Spike's is good stuff, but there's no beating a DD rail.
I have drank the Daniel Defense, KAC, and Troy/VTAC kool-aid, and I like it. Those are some rails for serious users, especially the former two.
It seems like Spike's had two goals with these rails: (1) cut weight, (2) look cool. The piccatinny rails do not look like they are tall enough to meet the spec, they don't extend all the way to the front, and they almost look fragile. I'll pass, especially since we have ultra-light offerings from Centurion Arms now.
I have no dog in this fight, but what the CEO of the company claims flies right in the face of this. He told me their rail was 30% sturdier than a DD rail and that's from an independent lab. Is that true? I don't know, but what I have noticed is this thread is full of negative conjecture and very little first hand knowledge to back it up. Isn't that exactly what we try to avoid on this site?
I have no dog in this fight, but what the CEO of the company claims flies right in the face of this. He told me their rail was 30% sturdier than a DD rail and that's from an independent lab. Is that true? I don't know, but what I have noticed is this thread is full of negative conjecture and very little first hand knowledge to back it up. Isn't that exactly what we try to avoid on this site?
It's hard for me to trust what the CEO says after he tells me to tighten the barrel nut with a plain/adjustable wrench when it's obvious I can't torque to spec with that.
A blanket "30% sturdier" statement is vague. Is that an average for all rail lengths and is it horizontal/vertical flex at the end of the rail?
It's hard for me to trust what the CEO says after he tells me to tighten the barrel nut with a plain/adjustable wrench when it's obvious I can't torque to spec with that.
A blanket "30% sturdier" statement is vague. Is that an average for all rail lengths and is it horizontal/vertical flex at the end of the rail?
Couldn't tell you! I doubt he lied to me, but I have no empirical evidence. That being said, I'm perfectly happy with the DD LITE rail on my 6920. ;)
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