A few questions for the FFLs here

[tiger seven]

These questions stem from a discussion I was part of on another forum. (Not TOS...)

We were talking about building on stripped lowers, and one guy said that since you are buying a "receiver and not a rifle" that you could build an AR pistol legally. I countered that you could only legally make a pistol out of a lower that was registered as a pistol on the Form 4473 when it was purchased. He claimed that he had puchased lowers that were listed on the 4473 merely as "receivers" and that meant that he could do whatever he wanted with them. I was a bit incredulous, but another member (whom I know to be well-informed on most things) confirmed that the place that he works at had indeed sold several receivers (both AR and AK) that were listed on the 4473 as just "receivers" and that the BATFE auditors had never had a problem with this.

So my questions are:

How can a person buy just a "receiver" when the 4473 clearly specifies whether the item being purchased is a handgun or long gun?

How and why would the BATFE allow the sale of a registered item (such as an AR lower) that is, for all legal intents and purposes, a firearm with no record of whether it is a handgun or long gun?

If this is allowed, how does the BATFE know what the receivers are being used for? This is where I'm really confused, as it would seem to be the sort of thing they'd be very concerned with. It looks to me like this would open up the serious potential for someone to make unregistered handguns.

I'm obviously approaching this from a consumer's point of view, and I'm sure there are countless things about being an FFL holder that I am completely clueless about. However, in almost 20 years of buying guns I have never heard of such a thing as this. I would appreciate any input and clarification that those of you who deal in firearms for a living may provide.

Thanks.

Derek

[markm]

In my opinion, building and/or buying an AR pistol should be a per se jailable offense. ;)

[Nathan_Bell]

I have spoken to the ATF about this, and the judgment of the inspector was that it would have had to be logged at the manufacturer as a pistol lower reciever.

Describing a long gun as a pistol on a 4473 would not be a good idea, this from Industry Operations folk at the ATF.

The law might be parsed so that you can do it that way, but those who enforce the law see that as an NFA item.

[tiger seven]

I have spoken to the ATF about this, and the judgment of the inspector was that it would have had to be logged at the manufacturer as a pistol lower reciever.

Describing a long gun as a pistol on a 4473 would not be a good idea, this from Industry Operations folk at the ATF.

The law might be parsed so that you can do it that way, but those who enforce the law see that as an NFA item.

That's what I always thought too. It has to come from the manufacturer to the dealer registered as a pistol, and then from the dealer to the individual as the same. I can't imagine it would look good for a receiver to come to a dealer logged as a rifle and then for them to sell it as a pistol. I would imagine that the paperwork wouldn't match up and that it would invite trouble. I have never heard of anything being listed as "just a receiver" and was under the impression that when a dealer gets lowers in they will be logged as pistols or rifles respectively and then sold as such. Am I wrong on that? :confused:

For the record, I have no interest in building or buying an AR pistol. :) I was just trying to keep some of the other, less experienced members of that forum from doing anything illegal, and what was being discussed certainly didn't sound good. Then I got a bit flummoxed by the whole thing and came here help!

Derek

[AR15barrels]

How and why would the BATFE allow the sale of a registered item (such as an AR lower) that is, for all legal intents and purposes, a firearm with no record of whether it is a handgun or long gun?

The feds are only concerned with the buyer's legal ability to purchase/own a firearm.
The feds do the background check via the NICS system.

There is no "registration" at the federal level.
Some states (including CA where I live) require registration of handguns.

I suppose that some states might also register long guns, but my state does not.
My state has determined that AR's built with certain features are "assault weapons" and those have to be registered.
They closed the registration in 2000 though so you can't build any more "assault weapons" here. :(

[tiger seven]

The feds are only concerned with the buyer's legal ability to purchase/own a firearm.
The feds do the background check via the NICS system.

There is no "registration" at the federal level.
Some states (including CA where I live) require registration of handguns.

I suppose that some states might also register long guns, but my state does not.
My state has determined that AR's built with certain features are "assault weapons" and those have to be registered.
They closed the registration in 2000 though so you can't build any more "assault weapons" here. :(

I am aware of all that, and of the many unfortunate pitfalls of living in CA. I guess the weather and the cute Asian girls help alleviate some of the pain. :)

The use of the word "registration" was a poor choice on my part. I simply meant that the lower receiver does have a serial number on it, just like a complete firearm, and that the serial number is on record and is put on the 4473 when it's puchased. It's not like buying just any old gun part. It just seems baffling to me that the BATFE would allow it to be sold as "just a receiver" and not be specified as a either a rifle receiver or pistol receiver, since many states and locales treat the two very differently (such as a waiting period for handguns and no wait for long guns) and I was under the impression that this was a significant detail.

Derek

[aloharover]

You can't sell it as "just a receiver"
When an 07 manufacturers some thing it gets logged as a rifle, pistol, revolver, or shotgun. They sell it and ship it to a dealer. It comes in and logged in the bound book as a rifle, pistol, revolver, or shotgun
It gets marked on the 4473 at the time of sale the same way.

[aloharover]

(Not TOS...)


What is TOS?

I have seen this same discussion on a couple site recently.

[tiger seven]

You can't sell it as "just a receiver"
When an 07 manufacturers some thing it gets logged as a rifle, pistol, revolver, or shotgun. They sell it and ship it to a dealer. It comes in and logged in the bound book as a rifle, pistol, revolver, or shotgun
It gets marked on the 4473 at the time of sale the same way.

Thank you. This was my impression of how the process worked, but it's good to get a clear answer.


What is TOS?

I have seen this same discussion on a couple site recently.

TOS = The Other Site = AR15.com

Again, thanks for the info.

Derek

[hags]

You can't sell it as "just a receiver"
When an 07 manufacturers some thing it gets logged as a rifle, pistol, revolver, or shotgun. They sell it and ship it to a dealer. It comes in and logged in the bound book as a rifle, pistol, revolver, or shotgun
It gets marked on the 4473 at the time of sale the same way.

Absolutely correct, if it's not marked pistol, then guess what, it's a long gun.

[Robb Jensen]

Receivers logged in the bound book where I work are logged in as 'stripped rifle receivers' unless on the invoice they're marked as pistol receivers.

And then they're sold and logged out as such unless they were received as pistol receivers.

[tiger seven]

I appreciate everyone's responses. I bowed out of the original discussion on that other forum, as it was clearly a lost cause. I wasn't so much concerned with proving that I was right but rather with simply keeping anybody from getting into trouble. There was a whirlwind of misinformation going around over there and I'm sure some of them will wind up doing something illegal. All I got for my good intentions was headache. Maybe I'll have better luck next time.

Thanks again for the help and the information.

Derek

[onmilo]

We ask the buyer the intended end result and mark the form accordingly.
In the description box we mark "receiver only" in the same box with the Manufacturer name.

Remember too, if you mark the 4473 that the receiver will be used to build a handgun and you sell to buyer 21 years or older, the receiver can also be used at any time to build a rifle instead of a pistol, this is not illegal.
However,if you mark the form as a rifle, the buyer cannot at any time use the receiver to build a pistol version of an AR, this would be a violation of Federal law.
There is a Federal statute preventing a rifle from being converted into a handgun unless you have a manufacturers exemption licensing permit from the BATFE and those are not easy to aquire any longer.

The whole thing gets complicated and I sometimes think this is done to trip up dealers.
If you really want to play it safe, mark the form as "both", make sure the buyer is 21 years or older and sell the receiver as you would a handgun, same waiting period and so forth.
This however, may not be prudent or desireable in states that make purchasing a handgun a nightmare of state red tape.