View Full Version : Man shoots himself at CCW class
I feel sorry for his family, I do see this as a tragedy. On the other hand, perhaps a drop of bleach in the gene pool.
http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-story-accident-shooting-class-kills-mountain-grove-police-department-employee-20110309,0,4494185.story
Condolences to his family, that's a damn shame.
I'm having a very hard time visualizing how he managed to turn it so that the muzzle was pointing at his own chest.
Belmont31R
03-10-11, 17:34
CCW classes are stupid. Ill continue carrying on my WA permit in TX for as long as I can.
I feel sorry for his family, I do see this as a tragedy. On the other hand, perhaps a drop of bleach in the gene pool.
http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-story-accident-shooting-class-kills-mountain-grove-police-department-employee-20110309,0,4494185.story
That sheriff sounds like an idiot. So it's "normal" to point a loaded and cocked gun at yourself while fumbling for the safety? Whether it's "correct" or not, I NEVER point a gun at myself, especially while using it at a range.
I wonder why they were shooting weak hand in an entry level class (ccw).
From the article...
"When you put that gun in the opposite hand, you always want to try and use [your index finger] to negotiate the safety but, in order to do that when you're doing it, you end up turning the gun toward yourself to make your finger reach," said Degase.
"It was a complete freak accident," said Degase. "Anytime you have a death like this, it is very unfortunate.
And I couldn't disagree more.
You most certainly DO NOT end up turning a gun towards yourself to operate a safety. If you do, you are doing it wrong and you'd be far safer not engaging the safety at all if you can't do it without pointing a gun at your own chest.
And it was hardly a freak accident, this is what is to be expected if you point a gun at yourself. That is why you never, never, never do it. Sounds like some real questionable training going on up there.
Rmplstlskn
03-10-11, 18:29
People shoot themselves in the oddest of ways that boggle the mind... Sad for all those involved... One never wants to see a friend die in front of them...
Another lesson to always be aware...
Rmpl
Sounds like some real questionable training going on up there.
Yep.
Basically a bunch of rubes instructing people how to behave in an inherently unsafe manner in a class that is probably mandatory and in the name of safety.
:rolleyes:
I really don't get the whole CCW class thing. If a state as liberal as WA does not require them why do these fly over states? At best they provide an illusion of being prepared, when the reality is that many times the number of hours of professional training is needed at running the gun and marksmanship before you can be truly competent. At worst you get this story. The mere fact you require this kind of class for so many people means by definition that some instructors of dubious qualification will be out training people. Here you have somebody under supervision pointing a loaded firearm at themselves!
Yep.
Basically a bunch of rubes instructing people how to behave in an inherently unsafe manner in a class that is probably mandatory and in the name of safety.
:rolleyes:
I really don't get the whole CCW class thing. If a state as liberal as WA does not require them why do these fly over states? At best they provide an illusion of being prepared, when the reality is that many times the number of hours of professional training is needed at running the gun and marksmanship before you can be truly competent. At worst you get this story. The mere fact you require this kind of class for so many people means by definition that some instructors of dubious qualification will be out training people. Here you have somebody under supervision pointing a loaded firearm at themselves!
And IF you are gonna make such classes mandatory. They should focus on 4 things.
http://www.bobtuley.com/safety_rules.htm
Rule # 1
Treat all guns as if they are loaded.
Unloaded guns cause the more accidents than loaded ones. Always treat all guns as if they are loaded.
Rule # 2
Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill.
This rule is especially important for those supervising novice shooters. When a child holds a rifle for example, if he hears a noise to the side, and turns his head, the weapon tends to follow. Similarly, if you make a great shot, and look back to brag to your friends, don't let the weapon follow your gaze.
Rule # 3
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger.
At all times you must keep your trigger finger straight, and off the trigger. Only once you have aimed and have your target in the sights should you permit your finger to gently rest on the trigger. This prevents accidental discharges should you stumble, trip, or be subjected to some unexpected event.
Rule # 4
Be absolutely sure
of your target, and
what is behind it.
Hitting a target even under the best conditions is a very challenging thing. If TV and movies were real, the good guys would kill far more innocent bystanders than bad guys. Bullets tends to miss, ricochet, penetrate through, and fall from the sky at velocities just as deadly as when the bullet left the barrel. If your bullet misses that deer or shoots over the top of that hill, you can't bring it back.
Dead is a forever deal. Once a bullet leaves the muzzle, you can't bring it back. You must read, and follow these rules ALWAYS!
kaiservontexas
03-11-11, 08:29
*shakes head* so that is what they teach in those classes? (no I have not gone through the process yet, time issue)
I wonder if the family can sue for wrongful death? I do not know the laws concerning such situations.
I feel bad for that family. Prayers to them . . .
While I absolutely agree with training being required for concealed carry permits there has got to be competent instruction. This is a failure of the shooter and the "instructor". Crawl, walk, run. You don't start off running.
I wonder why they were shooting weak hand in an entry level class (ccw).
Different states, different requirements. Colorado requires weak hand shooting as part of the training/qualifying.
*shakes head* so that is what they teach in those classes? (no I have not gone through the process yet, time issue)
I wonder if the family can sue for wrongful death? I do not know the laws concerning such situations.
I feel bad for that family. Prayers to them . . .
Sue for wrongful death? The man knowingly picked a firearm w/the intent to shoot it. You should know that mistakes can happen & I'm pretty sure that before the instructor allowed live rounds to be chambered he taught them the 4 rules of firearm safety. He violated three of them shooting himself in the chest. How is the instructor liable? Why is this country sue crazy?
Condolences to the family.
IDK but it may be that his first mistake was taking a weapon he was unfamiliar with to a class.
Primarily, I would hold the instructor liable for teaching an inherently dangerous manipulation of the weapon.
I have never fired a pistol with a safety from my weak hand. Sounds a bit awkward.
Showed this to my son in hopes he can learn from this tragedy too.
Buckaroo
My condolences to the family but that really makes me hesitant to take the class soon. Who will I be shooting beside?
Why is this country sue crazy?
Because the Dem party has repeatedly blocked tort reform legislation in Congress over the past 20 years.
As far as liability, I have difficulty imagining a jury finding the instructor or the range liable. But that does not mean the deceased fellow's family will not sue and hope for an insurance settlement. Is that wrong? Yes.
Because the Dem party has repeatedly blocked tort reform legislation in Congress over the past 20 years.
As far as liability, I have difficulty imagining a jury finding the instructor or the range liable. But that does not mean the deceased fellow's family will not sue and hope for an insurance settlement. Is that wrong? Yes.
It's one thing to be stupid, but its entirely another if someone was training them to handle the gun that way. The sheriff's comments seem to reflect that it is. I think the sheriff's office can (and potentially should) be sued if that is their SOP for offhand safety manipulation. It's blatantly dangerous.
Yep.
Basically a bunch of rubes instructing people how to behave in an inherently unsafe manner in a class that is probably mandatory and in the name of safety.
:rolleyes:
I really don't get the whole CCW class thing. If a state as liberal as WA does not require them why do these fly over states? At best they provide an illusion of being prepared, when the reality is that many times the number of hours of professional training is needed at running the gun and marksmanship before you can be truly competent. At worst you get this story. The mere fact you require this kind of class for so many people means by definition that some instructors of dubious qualification will be out training people. Here you have somebody under supervision pointing a loaded firearm at themselves!
I've taken these classes in two States - Tennessee and Missouri. At no time were we required to fire with the "off" hand.
Not all of us here in the "fly over states" are a bunch of rubes. I've witnessed range safety violations in each of the 7 states in which I've lived. The CCW classes are mandatory in MO - weak hand shooting is not. CCW instructors must be certified by the state, the "instructor" in this case should have his certification revoked (at minimum).
Condolences to the family - another object lesson to everyone to take firearm safety seriously.
Sad incident nonetheless. However, most states require some kind of proof of training with the firearm that demonstrates safe handling of the weapon. I do support this, as there are many people who have no experience with a firearm and want to conceal carry. I support them in this as I think we all should. However, they need to have some kind of familiarity class and should fire the gun a few times. I have seen it numerous times in my career, in training people for watch how have never fired a pistol. Now the M9 is very controllable, however, I have seen the recoil scare the bejesus out of people and drop the pistol, which can be very dangerous to them and everyone else around them.
Nothing wrong with CCW classes in general. But this one should have done a better job. I feel there should be at the least an investigation.
The guy had a revolver but the instructor had him switch to a semi-auto. Why? He obviously was not familiar with a semi-auto and preferred a revolver.
:fie:
Nothing wrong with CCW classes in general. But this one should have done a better job. I feel there should be at the least an investigation.
The guy had a revolver but the instructor had him switch to a semi-auto. Why? He obviously was not familiar with a semi-auto and preferred a revolver.
:fie:
I agree with Evil. A standard CCW class is fine but why were they doing this drill in a basic, entry level class?
Not all of us here in the "fly over states" are a bunch of rubes.
No, but the people teaching this class were. I did not say people in the fly over states are all rubes, so why are you acting like I did?
What I did ask is why in some of the most conservative areas of the country (fly over states) do we see bad gun laws like requiring everyone who gets a concealed carry permit to take some stupid class, banning guns in churches (1st and 2nd Amendment violation in one), etc.?
Nothing wrong with CCW classes in general.
I think there is. I think they provide the illusion of safety and competency to those who take them, and because they are required they are in such high demand that a bunch of unqualified people end up being the instructors.
People who truly want to be competent (or better) are going to seek training that is going to be of a much higher quality and far more time intensive (and more expensive) to actually learn what they need to learn.
The safety class requirement is a poor bandaid for the problem that the vast majority of gun owners and carriers WILL NEVER dedicate any significant time to training formally and practicing in an organized fashion to develop/maintain competency.
I don't believe states with the requirement for these short little classes are any better off safety wise than states like mine that do not require them.
ca_fireman19
03-26-11, 19:16
"When you put that gun in the opposite hand, you always want to try and use [your index finger] to negotiate the safety but, in order to do that when you're doing it, you end up turning the gun toward yourself to make your finger reach," said Degase.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your THUMB used to acuate the safety in most if not all circumstances?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your THUMB used to acuate the safety in most if not all circumstances?
Doesn't matter, if you can't operate it without pointing it at your chest or other people you don't intend to shoot, then don't even engage the safety.
ca_fireman19
03-26-11, 21:04
Doesn't matter, if you can't operate it without pointing it at your chest or other people you don't intend to shoot, then don't even engage the safety.
Granted. After reading the article, I thoroughly cleared my Beretta 96 and tried to figure out how the hell the guy managed to pop himself in the chest and for the life of me (thankfully only a pun in my case, not so much in his) I could not figure it out...
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