Backup guns....do you train with them?

[Flork]

Picture this....You're bomin' around on a back road in (Add dream car here) and you get a flat tire. You have an idea what to do, but really never changed a tire before, you have a spare, but are't sure that it's right because of how small the tire is compared to the original one....

Now translate that over to your carry guns. You carry a full size gun daily, you draw it in defense of your life, get a shot off and the gun takes a round in the slide, it's completely useless, you go for your backup J-frame....the one you never practice with because the trigger pull is in the 14lb range. You pull the trigger.....keep pulling, keep pulling and finally it goes off but you miss.....

This is a bad situation all around, but it could happen to any of us. Bottom line is, when you go to your backup tire/gun you need it to work and you need to know what to do with it and that's why I'm here.

I personally like J-Frame S&W revolvers, I think they're great little guns, but the trigger pulls on them are so bad that I couldn't imagine trying to train with one enough to get proficient with it if it has a 12+ pound trigger pull.

Since my arrival at Apex a year and a half ago, I've been working on revolvers under the masterful hand of Randy Lee. He's built on the lessons I learned from Bruce Gray while I worked under his direction and I consider myself lucky to have worked under such Masters of their respective crafts.

Part of what Randy and I have been working on is trigger work for the J-Frame revolvers. We're able to produce a trigger pull in the 8lb range that works every time, but that requires a certain amount of modification to parts and our time. I've been working on the principals used within the J-Frame to come up with a drop in kit that will reduce the trigger pull weight of the J-Frame revolvers, smooth out the trigger that feels like you're pulling a dumpster across a gravel parking lot and cause people to train with their J-Frames as much as if not more than their full size guns.

I'm presently in the process of Beta Testing my drop in J-Frame kit that produces a 9lb trigger pull that is smooth as silk and fires with every ammo, every time. The test results are good so far. I pumped 300 rounds through the little gun last Saturday after strictly dropping in the parts and the results are promising. I'm hoping to complete the beta testing process and get the kits ready for debut at the NRA Show in Pittsburgh at the end of April.

I'll post more news as I have it available.

[rathos]

I train more with my backups then I do with my primary. This is mainly due to the fact that proficiency with the backup guns drops off so much quicker and the trigger control I get from that j-frame makes shooting my m&p seem easy.

A j-frame mod that would lighten up the trigger that much would make my practice sessions so much better.


Would this mod be something someone not to mechanically inclined could do? Any idea on a price point yet?

[fnforme]

There is a reason my backup and primary are so similar. I find transitioning from radically different platforms to be detrimental to me.

I carry a K9 with a PM9 as a backup (and often as a primary when I'm in a suit) and even though I shoot the K9 slightly more than the PM9 I still try to run a few mags through the PM9 during each range visit to maintain proficiency with it.

Flork, I've tried a j-frame and learned they just weren't for me as the fatal double-helix characteristics of wicked recoil and horrendous trigger pull made me question the utility of a gun I couldn't hit anything with, that I hated shooting and which was more anemic and fatter than my PM9. But, if you can pull off a pull in the 8 lb range in a j-frame you may have my money and I may give the little revolvers another chance.

[SeriousStudent]

Absolutely yes, I do train with the backup.

Like you, I frequently use a J-frame, most often a S&W 642 with Crimson Trace laser grips. I went as far as to buy a stainless steel Model 60 in .357 to practice with. That way I do not beat my Airweight to death with longer strings of fire.

For me, a J-frame is a pistol that requires a lot of work to gain proficiency with. I literally cringe when I see some Fudd in a LGS recommend "just buy a 642 for the little lady."

The G26 is not as difficult to train with. Like many here, mine seems to shoot quite well. Maybe it's because it really forces me to concentrate on grip, sight alignment, etc.

Flork, I'm definitely interested in your and Randy's J-frame kit when you get it ready. If you get it to drop in, you will have truly done a great thing. But judging from your previous work, I am sure you folks can do it. :)

[John_Wayne777]

I purchased a S&W 317 specifically for more economical practice with a J frame trigger and sights. It's made a significant difference in my ability to use my S&W 442...which I also practice with regularly.

I would welcome a high quality drop-in trigger kit for a J frame. With such a light, small revolver even small modifications can make a world of difference.

[willowofwisp]

I purchased a S&W 317 specifically for more economical practice with a J frame trigger and sights. It's made a significant difference in my ability to use my S&W 442...which I also practice with regularly.

I would welcome a high quality drop-in trigger kit for a J frame. With such a light, small revolver even small modifications can make a world of difference.

I totally agree, I put at least 120 rounds through my PPC guns a week, which have roughly a 4lb break but a perfect smooth long pull, when i transition to a j frame..the long pull is stil lthere but damn like you said pulling a dumpster across gravel.

can you give us a rough ETA or price?

[Flork]

Thanks for all your support guys. We're planning to release the kit as soon as we have enough of the proof we need that it works every time.

I'm thinking mid April for a release time, but possibly the end of April at the NRA Show in Pittsburgh, PA.

As for price point, you're looking at under $40 for the spring kit that will give you the dead reliable 9lb pull. We'll be releasing a deluxe version of the kit that will include a Rebound Slide and a Cylinder Stop made by Apex. We don't have a time frame for the release of the Deluxe Kit, but it's in the works.

Scott

[GTF425]

I try to keep a 2:1 ratio of trigger time between my main rifle and my sidearm. In my personal range time, I practice malfunction drills and transitions since they take the least amount of live firing to become proficient at.

This is how I also feel about BUIS.

[SeriousStudent]

Forty clams? Done.

Please let us know when they are ready. I'll be happy to buy one, install it on a 642, and send you a report after a range session.

Thanks for the heads up!

[exitinyourhead]

I'll second that emotion, 40 would be a great price and I'd cetainly buy and try.

[RyanB]

I shoot my Kahr better than a class full of cops shoot their G19s. Yeah I shoot my backup.

Mostly it's a J, and I'd go for 2/3 the trigger if it ignites reliably.

[Bourneshooter]

I chose the Glock 27 as my backup as I have to carry a Glock 22 on duty (issued with no choice for anything else). Having the same type of trigger and sights helps with muscle memory.

I would like something smaller with a Glock trigger though (Single stack 9mm anyone?) as it would be easier to conceal in uniform.

[skyugo]

i shoot all my carry guns consistently.
I don't carry a "backup" though.

[Roy]

I train with my BUG's

I go as far as to primarlary shoot my J frame left handed because i carry it in my left front pocket. I shoot my G 27 each time I shoot my 22. I carry the 27 on the left side of my vest for a right hand draw so I shoot that strong hand mostly

[markdh720]

I'll echo what others have stated.

I'm probably around a 2:1 round count between my primary (Sig P229) and my 442. While I could probably go a while without firing my primary and suffer little in accuracy, the 442 is a small beast that demands consistent training.

My plan is to try the G19 and G26 combo for more consistency between my carry weapons, which is exactly what I don't have now.

[Surf]

I haven't carried a wheel gun while working in many many years. My back up gun is my main work pistol Sig P226 if my M4 primary goes down. ;) If not carrying an M4 as a primary my back up is a very familiar platform of pistol with a lighter trigger then my Sig. I train enough to not have an issue under stress training. Of course in all fairness, I haven't had to pull my back up while being shot at either.

I do get a lot of time with a lot of my handguns that I may use for work, carry, or just for fun. Many people may not subscribe to shooting a lot of different weapons, but I have the time to spend training different weapons with enough regularity that I don't confuse things. I am definitely a bit spoiled when it comes to range time and ammo and someday in the not too distant future, I will look back and realize how fortunate I was. The young bucks always stay young as there are dozens more waiting to get their shot and we continue to get wiser. Getting wiser isn't always easy. :(

[operator81]

It depends. When I was using a G27/G26 to back up a full-size Glock, not as much. Maybe 1 out of every 4 range trips would I put a few mags through it. When I was using my S&W 442 to back up my back up, or non-Glock pistol, I tried to shoot it a lot more. I can usually put all 4 rounds in the A-zone from 10 yards shooting rapidly. 15 yards out and further I have to slow down a bit. While I don't rely on it as a primary piece, I'm confident in my abilities with using it quickly should my primary go down.

[willowofwisp]

Thanks for all your support guys. We're planning to release the kit as soon as we have enough of the proof we need that it works every time.

I'm thinking mid April for a release time, but possibly the end of April at the NRA Show in Pittsburgh, PA.

As for price point, you're looking at under $40 for the spring kit that will give you the dead reliable 9lb pull. We'll be releasing a deluxe version of the kit that will include a Rebound Slide and a Cylinder Stop made by Apex. We don't have a time frame for the release of the Deluxe Kit, but it's in the works.

Scott

Scott,

I remember reading somewhere there was an issue with the j frame firing pin being to short or something? is that an issue this kit addresses?

[NC Buckeye]

As others have said I don't carry a backup and as a civvie my pistol is my primary. I do split my training time between my 19 and pm9 in about the same split that I carry them. 80/20

[f.2]

Just back from the range with my 342 AirLite Ti and 642-1. I've been looking at your employer's / Apex Tactical's $150 action work for J-frames and am also curious about the firing pin specs / mod and the new spring kit work.

[ST911]

I endeavor to shoot, train, and qualify with my BUGs as often as my primaries. Keeping them of a similar type keeps divergence between systems to a minimum.

I've found that in developing skill with my J-frames, my shooting with larger primaries has improved as well.

JW777's idea to use a .22LR for additional training is a good one.

All of my J-frames came with triggers in need of improvement. I wouldn't call any of them intolerable though, and they smoothed out nicely over many hundred dry-fires.

A drop in solution that made the trigger even better, without compromising function, is one I'd like to learn more about.

[Dienekes]

Having used J-frames a long time (a dehorned M37 and a stock 442) I find them sufficiently smooth from use. I also prefer full weight springs and a hard grip. Smoothness is more important to me than pull weight. In any event familiarity is a good thing.

One thing I do a lot of with any revolver is 'ball and dummy', using fired cases to absorb the hammer impact on the empty chambers; it's easier in the alloy-framed guns.

Never got a .22 J-frame 2" practice gun, but wish I had.

[FotoTomas]

I regularly train with both the full/medium size pistols and the smaller compact/sub-compact models. In addition I "qualify" both left and right handed with them all.

My 638 J frame's trigger is heavy but after 30 plus years of shooting the little buggers I am happy with them as they are.

[tpd223]

I regularly train with my J frames.

My "standard trigger job" for a new J frame is 1000 dry fires.

I also bought a S&W 317 as has been noted above, to use as a sub-caliber trainer.


I am very interested in this development.

[SWATcop556]

If you need some Beta testing done just send me a 442 with kit installed and a case of ammo and I'll wear it out for you as we have spring firearms coming up for the dept. :big_boss:

[Deputy25]

I train regularly with my back-up, a Glock 33. My agency specifies the 33 as the only authorized back-up to our Glock 31s. I do occasionally carry a 442 in a coat pocket as a 3rd. I haven't had any problems putting rounds where they will do some good with the j-frames, but a lighter (reliable) trigger would be great.

[mbacelonia]

I make sure to throw in at least couple boxes of .380 through my LCP at every range session. Someone else already noted that the skill you have with a backup deteriorate much faster than that of your primary.