View Full Version : Future Army Officer. Do I Need to Train with a Beretta 92FS?
I'll be graduating college in August and heading to Basic and then Office Candidate School after that. I was wondering if it would help my proficiency to go ahead and pick up a 92FS (civilian M9) and shoot with it instead of my Glock 21SF. I want to do everything possible to do really well through my training to make me a great officer for the US Army (already working on APFT score and studying materials), and I thought that shooting pistol with the issue hand gun would help. I haven't really seen in the SOPs I have read that we will do a lot of pistol work, but it's better to be over-prepared, right? I've read that they may be phasing them out soon. Any truth to that?
Cagemonkey
03-11-11, 17:31
Its my opinion that would be a good idea. The M9 is the weapon you will qualify with and take into harms way along with the M4.
I'll be graduating college in August and heading to Basic and then Office Candidate School after that. I was wondering if it would help my proficiency to go ahead and pick up a 92FS (civilian M9) and shoot with it instead of my Glock 21SF. I want to do everything possible to do really well through my training to make me a great officer for the US Army (already working on APFT score and studying materials), and I thought that shooting pistol with the issue hand gun would help. I haven't really seen in the SOPs I have read that we will do a lot of pistol work, but it's better to be over-prepared, right? I've read that they may be phasing them out soon. Any truth to that?
I went through Basic Training and OCS three decades ago, so take all these comments with a grain of salt.
I never touched an Army handgun until I was issued a 1911A1 as a platoon leader at my first duty station in Germany. Never even saw one at Basic, at OCS, or at the ADA Officer's Basic Course. We did qualify with the M16A1(!) at Basic but not IIRC at OCS.
It's not a bad thing to shoot a 92 but I think you should prioritize. Analyze what tasks you'll be asked to perform at Basic and OCS, under what conditions, to what standards. Then assess how well you can perform them now. Prioritize your time and resources now on the ones where you are furthest from the standard.
I saw more people go home from basic and OCS for a lack of physical conditioning/injuries than anything else. Second most common cause of discharges at Basic was unwillingness/inability to submit to authority. My guess is that won't be an issue for you, but be warned, it will be for some folks in your basic training company. Oddly enough, night land navigation was a big killer in my OCS company (51st Co.). Some folks had never learned to find their way around in thick woods, like the ones at Benning, at night and IMO were just overwhelmed.
The things that mattered the most in getting through basic and OCS IME were keeping a positive attitude, wanting to succeed, being a team player, and being in the best possible physical condition. Physical conditioning helps one to ward off illness, heal from injuries, maintain a good attitude, think clearly when fatigued, etc. I wasn't in great shape, but I wanted awfully bad to succeed so that carried me through.
Good luck to you.
Its my opinion that would be a good idea. The M9 is the weapon you will qualify with and take into harms way along with the M4.
+1 If you want wicked skill levels with issued small arms.
Oddly enough, night land navigation was a big killer in my OCS company (51st Co.). Some folks had never learned to find their way around in thick woods, like the ones at Benning, at night and IMO were just overwhelmed.
Well I spent the majority of my youth playing in the dense woods of North Carolina so hopefully Benning won't be too different in respect to the terrain. And I'm working on the Army Land Nav Manual to be prepared for that part. I've definitely heard horror stories so I want to be prepared.
The things that mattered the most in getting through basic and OCS IME were keeping a positive attitude, wanting to succeed, being a team player, and being in the best possible physical condition. Physical conditioning helps one to ward off illness, heal from injuries, maintain a good attitude, think clearly when fatigued, etc. I wasn't in great shape, but I wanted awfully bad to succeed so that carried me through.
Good luck to you.
Like I said, I'm working on the physical conditioning, with a 5K in the morning to see where I am for that part. I'm up to about 50 push ups, with a ways to go. And I'm in the same boat for sit ups. I'll be upset if I don't get a 300 or more. And OCS is something I've strongly considered for over a year now so I definitely want to succeed.
The reason I'm considering picking up and training with a M9 is the fact that I'll be shooting pistols between now and then and I figure I might as well use what I'll be using, even if it is sparingly, in the future.
Thanks for the advice. Did you go from enlisted or the college route?
I would say it's a good idea to train with what you'll be issued.
It's a waste of time.
Physical conditioning should be your goal.
Federal OCS is all about running.
If you can't run a 13:00 two mile and a 40:00 five mile then you will lose opportunities to those that can.
My issue weapon is an M16A2.
And don't think that playing in the woods has anything to do with OCS.
Imagine being freezing cold in the pissing rain and having to run through mud that is twelve inches deep to find some signs in the dark and you will begin to understand how miserable I was during land nav on Yankee South.
The route you are taking is well trod, but not enjoyable. A handgun is the least of your concerns.
Any extra training you can get cant hurt. But most importantly is mental strength. With special operations in my past with the 160th SOAR A, i can tell you they will teach you what you need, your buggest hurdle will be staying mentally strong. If you can do that, you can complete anything they throw at you. Most military training is more mental than anything else. Dig deep and Never Quit. NSDQ!
Don't waste your time. We'll teach you how to shoot should your job require it.
As nice as it is to want to prepare the most you can, you'll more than likely learn some ****ed up tacti-cool method of shooting that isn't going to do shit for you anyway.
You should heed SethB's advice and PT. A lot. While you're at it, become familiar with SH 21-76.
RogerinTPA
03-11-11, 20:18
While having a like pistol is not a bad thing, like others have said, there are other things to concentrate on. PT should be your number one priority (running, swimming, push ups, situps, rope climb) to include ruck marching over various terrain and distances, in a set time. The standard 12 mile road march with rucksack (40-50lbs), under 3 hours minimum, is a good gut check. Practicing land nav and all that entails (map reading, pace count, finding the correct points in day and night, over long distances and various terrain), listening and the ability to follow simple instruction, will be a larger benefit. If you can't come close to maxing your PT test when you show up, you'll probably get smoked during the course. If you wanna stand out, do so for great performance in all areas, instead of a mediocre one or bottom 1/3rd of your class. If you want to be a leader, you need to lead from the front of the pack in all events and not falling out of runs or failing events because you failed to prepare.
Always remember, it is a leadership course where your leadership & teamwork is under constant evaluation, and not a pistol course.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-11-11, 20:24
Yes. Please learn your job, it will make your NCO's job a lot easier.
My son just reported in to his unit as a new second LT. The army has not let him even touch a handgun. His weapons training was entirely with m16A2. Running, push-ups, and sit-ups are what you need to work on.
given that you said that you'll be shooting a handgun in the meanwhile anyway, I would say that any training you do with the one you'll eventually be issued would be beneficial in the long run.
a 92 and a Glock are enough apart in function that developing coordination and memory with one is going to prepare you for that.
now drop and give me twenty... :haha:
I bought a 92FS as a new 2LT at my officer’s basic course many years ago specifically so I could learn to shoot a pistol before arriving at my first duty station. I’d say it wasn’t a waste of money, but I believe there are more important things for you to focus you time and money on than proficiency with the M9. I think in my 6 years in the Army I had to qualify with the pistol only twice and each time I thought of the pistol qualification was super easy. In fact, I watched my driver qualify with a malfunctioning M9 that required an immediate action drill between each shot.
I’ll echo the earlier advice to focus on physical conditioning and avoiding injury. Invest in some good running shoes and good insoles for your issue boots and learn to take care of your feet. Foot injuries seem to be a huge problem for many young soldiers. The M9 is the least of your issues right now.
Good luck.
CJ
As nice as it is to want to prepare the most you can, you'll more than likely learn some ****ed up tacti-cool method of shooting that isn't going to do shit for you anyway.
If defensive carbine classes teach ****ed up tacti-cool methods then I'm in trouble.
now drop and give me twenty... :haha:
I just finished my push up workout for the night. Does that count?
While having a like pistol is not a bad thing, like others have said, there are other things to concentrate on. PT should be your number one priority (running, swimming, push ups, situps, rope climb) to include ruck marching over various terrain and distances, in a set time. The standard 12 mile road march with rucksack (40-50lbs), under 3 hours minimum, is a good gut check. Practicing land nav and all that entails (map reading, pace count, finding the correct points in day and night, over long distances and various terrain), listening and the ability to follow simple instruction, will be a larger benefit. If you can't come close to maxing your PT test when you show up, you'll probably get smoked during the course. If you wanna stand out, do so for great performance in all areas, instead of a mediocre one or bottom 1/3rd of your class. If you want to be a leader, you need to lead from the front of the pack in all events and not falling out of runs or failing events because you failed to prepare.
Always remember, it is a leadership course where your leadership & teamwork is under constant evaluation, and not a pistol course.
That's some of the best advice I've read. Thanks! I thought the ruck march was with 60lbs?
Guys, from all the advice, especially from the OCS grads and other .mil guys, I think I'll just stick with my Glock 21 for now, unless a great deal comes along and I'll snag it anyways. I'm still working on my physical training (I may do the next APFT with the ROTC kids to see where I stand) and trying to balance my regular school work while studying the land nav, etc, material to prepare for OCS. I really appreciate everyone's input and can't wait to be a strong officer. I'll keep shooting my AR to make sure I keep those skills sharp, but don't worry, it won't get in the way of more push ups :D
:thank_you2:
I just finished my push up workout for the night. Does that count?
Then you need to go do more and stop worrying about the small things...ie shooting a pistol, the weight of ruck sacks on marches, etc.
As for your classes...that's fine, but you're still a cherry and you don't even have an OCS slot yet. I don't know what you seem to think you're gonna be doing as an officer, but my former PL never fired his weapon when we got into contact. He had other things to do.
We'll teach you how to shoot. We'll teach you how to ruck. We'll teach you how to be a soldier. Between now and then, get your PT score up and prepare your mind for The Suck that is to come.
QuietShootr
03-11-11, 21:42
It's a waste of time.
Physical conditioning should be your goal.
Federal OCS is all about running.
If you can't run a 13:00 two mile and a 40:00 five mile then you will lose opportunities to those that can.
My issue weapon is an M16A2.
And don't think that playing in the woods has anything to do with OCS.
Imagine being freezing cold in the pissing rain and having to run through mud that is twelve inches deep to find some signs in the dark and you will begin to understand how miserable I was during land nav on Yankee South.
The route you are taking is well trod, but not enjoyable. A handgun is the least of your concerns.
This.
ehcarl2983
03-11-11, 21:58
I agree with much of above. PT and overall mental toughness is the first step. This goes far beyond the APFT. If you'd like to get ready for land nav, look for a local orienteering club.
I disagree though that purchasing a 92 would be a waste. With the caveat that you don't sell your glock to fund it. If you already have a m16/m4 (this weapon purchase should definitely come first) platform rifle and the money won't be a problem, go get a 92. No offense to the experience of the members who have posted so far but the Army's emphasis on pistol training is pretty low. The army will teach you battle drills, land nav, but will not teach you how to proficiently use a pistol.
Do you need one? No way, but if money isn't an obstacle go for it. Real proficiency will small arms is a valuable skill set if you have the time.
My .02
Bobert0989
03-11-11, 22:32
Wont the M9 shoot itself? Lol...
If you have any experience with firing a handgun, you should be able to put rounds on target with the M9. Its an excellent platform. Very user-friendly.
Get in shape and get your mind right. The shooting will become second nature with minimal practice.
Combat_Diver
03-12-11, 09:52
Concur with Bobert above, IE your previous pistol skills will carry over as fundementals are the same. Only thing different would be the safety and trigger which you get when ever your issued one. Concenrate on your phyiscal and mental conditioning. The Army can train monkeys any task but you have to be willing to learn and good luck to you.
CD
Hey OP, do you like to shoot? Do have the desire to be just ridiculously good with one? For it's own sake. Not because it makes you a better LT cause it's largely irrelevent. If so then yeah, master the M9.
I am pretty damned confident you can't afford enough ammo to seriously inroad on your 05:00 PT time so I wouldn't fret too much about mistakes in prioritizing M9 shooting above getting your PT in for crissakes. :rolleyes:
If your question is will M9 skill and familiarity help you advance in any way whatsoever, then no. Other than someday making you alive.
But some approach this craft with a desire for serious excellence with their issued small arms. ("quals" have nothing to do with high degrees of excellence).
Go find the thread on this board named "lessons learned in combat" and read it carefully. You will find some important insights in there.
**** it, here it is: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540
As Pat McNamarra is quoted: "Your pistol is your secondary, until it becomes your primary."
The shooting will become second nature with minimal practice.
[editted for orig posting taking this out of context; and misunderstanding the point] If you are an accomplished pistol shot, picking up a new platform shouldn't be that tough. Except plenty of folks cannot manage the DA pull on the M9.
Bobert0989
03-15-11, 09:09
Not meaning no trouble but that is astoundingly false. Especially with regards to pistol shooting.
I was only referring to the point of, given any previous training with a handgun, he shouldn't feel obligated to spend the extra time/money on a new handgun platform when those resources would seem better spent on the physical preperation. When you take that statement out of context then, yes, it's obviously not true. We all know that you cant pick up a gun and be an expert shooter. But if he is training with a Glock right now, he shouldn't have too much trouble shooting the M9 when the time comes. My pet rock could probably qualify with that pistol! ;)
Spurholder
03-15-11, 09:37
Not meaning no trouble but that is astoundingly false. Especially with regards to pistol shooting.
Actually, he's sort of correct. Ever shot the Army's Combat Pistol Qualification Course? IMHO, it's the most "false-confidence inspiring" course of fire the Army's ever developed.
Then again, maybe that's the entire point of the exercise...:(
Then you need to go do more and stop worrying about the small things...ie shooting a pistol, the weight of ruck sacks on marches, etc.
As for your classes...that's fine, but you're still a cherry and you don't even have an OCS slot yet. I don't know what you seem to think you're gonna be doing as an officer, but my former PL never fired his weapon when we got into contact. He had other things to do.
We'll teach you how to shoot. We'll teach you how to ruck. We'll teach you how to be a soldier. Between now and then, get your PT score up and prepare your mind for The Suck that is to come.
Are you really serious with your last two posts?
Who is the "we" you speak of? I hope its not the Army you are referring to. If you think that you cant greatly improve your weapon proficiency by seeking outside training you don't have a clue about todays training industry. Many would argue that you can receive far better training from outside the military than from the inside. Do you even know any of the major players in todays training industry? Have you ever researched the bios of many of those instructors? Take the time to do so... To make these comments "
you'll more than likely learn some ****ed up tacti-cool method of shooting that isn't going to do shit for you anyway" is wayyyy off base, and has no place on this forum.
A member wrote a great article discussing this topic to some extent and came to the conclusion that if he had received the training that he received from the training industry after he left the military he might not be in a wheelchair because of a 7.62x39 projectile...
Are you really serious with your last two posts?
Who is the "we" you speak of? I hope its not the Army you are referring to. If you think that you cant greatly improve your weapon proficiency by seeking outside training you don't have a clue about todays training industry. Many would argue that you can receive far better training from outside the military than from the inside. Do you even know any of the major players in todays training industry? Have you ever researched the bios of many of those instructors? Take the time to do so... To make these comments " is wayyyy off base, and has no place on this forum.
A member wrote a great article discussing this topic to some extent and came to the conclusion that if he had received the training that he received from the training industry after he left the military he might not be in a wheelchair because of a 7.62x39 projectile...
Thanks for that, king. I thought he sounded out of line but what do I know, I'm just a civie; for a few months more anyways.
Are you really serious with your last two posts?
Who is the "we" you speak of? I hope its not the Army you are referring to. If you think that you cant greatly improve your weapon proficiency by seeking outside training you don't have a clue about todays training industry. Many would argue that you can receive far better training from outside the military than from the inside. Do you even know any of the major players in todays training industry? Have you ever researched the bios of many of those instructors? Take the time to do so... To make these comments " is wayyyy off base, and has no place on this forum.
A member wrote a great article discussing this topic to some extent and came to the conclusion that if he had received the training that he received from the training industry after he left the military he might not be in a wheelchair because of a 7.62x39 projectile...
I was pointing out that there are far bigger things to prepare for than shooting a pistol if his true ambition is to be an Army Officer.
As for the tacti-cool comment...I didn't say he would learn that in a class. I'm very aware of the professional backgrounds of many of the key players in today's training environment and personally knowing a few of them I will vouch for their worth. Everyone can benefit from classes if they apply themselves and have good instructors. However, if his priority is to be a stud with an M9 instead of things like first aid, TLP's, battle drills, etc...then it's my opinion that he's not focused on what's important for his task at hand.
variablebinary
03-15-11, 10:49
This is not important. You'll have plenty of other things to keep you busy and shooting anything will far down on the importance list. Start running and getting fit.
This is not important. You'll have plenty of other things to keep you busy and shooting anything will far down on the importance list. Start running and getting fit.
This has been discussed and is the general consensus. I'm working on it, don't worry.
I was pointing out that there are far bigger things to prepare for than shooting a pistol if his true ambition is to be an Army Officer.
As for the tacti-cool comment...I didn't say he would learn that in a class. I'm very aware of the professional backgrounds of many of the key players in today's training environment and personally knowing a few of them I will vouch for their worth. Everyone can benefit from classes if they apply themselves and have good instructors. However, if his priority is to be a stud with an M9 instead of things like first aid, TLP's, battle drills, etc...then it's my opinion that he's not focused on what's important for his task at hand.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your thoughts. I agree completely that PT is first priority. I just wanted to clarify the other comments regarding training. Thanks for your professional response.
Also, t42beal13t,
I'm heading to an M9 range in a couple of hours. It's our second pistol range in the past two weeks. As the rest of the community will agree, Army-wide pistol training is pretty weak. However, if you wind up in a unit that requires you to be proficient with an M9, you'll get enough trigger time and you'll learn what works for you. Learning the POA/POI with an M9 can't hurt, however IMO practicing reloading and transitioning can't really be accomplished until you get your first line set up how you'll keep it so you can start to develop muscle memory around that kit.
You're a smart guy and you understand what to work on. I won't talk shit about anyone who wants to be more proficient with anything because, to be honest, that's what we all should be doing every single day.
Drive on.
As others have said, at this point it is not needed. Depending on your branch, you may never even see an M9 during your career.
Army leadership training was all about PT and management skills (most military officers end up being managers more than leaders). The ability to excel in areas such as tactics, shooting, land nav, and the like will get you less far than preparing an exciting OPORD for your tac officer/nco and getting 300 on the APFT. Hell, even after you get your commission, the ability to shoot well really means nothing (unless you have to use it for real). This may seem a little cynical and it is, but at the same time, as a combat leader your job in combat is not as a trigger puller, it is to insure that your commanders intent is being carried out by maneuvering your unit and reporting to higher. You won't have much time for trigger pulling, but you will be running around like a mad man and that is where your physical and mental toughness will come to bear.
Now, if you are looking for an excuse to buy a new handgun or attend some high speed training, then by all means - it may very well save your life and give you props with your troopies (your troops will appreciate your shooting/technical skills far more than your superiors) . But other than that, it won't make much of a difference in your officer career.
I was only referring to the point of, given any previous training with a handgun, he shouldn't feel obligated to spend the extra time/money on a new handgun platform when those resources would seem better spent on the physical preperation. When you take that statement out of context then, yes, it's obviously not true. We all know that you cant pick up a gun and be an expert shooter. But if he is training with a Glock right now, he shouldn't have too much trouble shooting the M9 when the time comes. My pet rock could probably qualify with that pistol! ;)
Sure your right. I took that out of context and didn't appreciate that your point was - you're already a pistol shooter so you'll pick up the M9 soon enough.
I'll edit that post appropriately. Thanks for the tune up. ;)
variablebinary
03-15-11, 12:49
Army leadership training was all about PT and management skills (most military officers end up being managers more than leaders). The ability to excel in areas such as tactics, shooting, land nav, and the like will get you less far than preparing an exciting OPORD for your tac officer/nco and getting 300 on the APFT. Hell, even after you get your commission, the ability to shoot well really means nothing (unless you have to use it for real). This may seem a little cynical and it is, but at the same time, as a combat leader your job in combat is not as a trigger puller, it is to insure that your commanders intent is being carried out by maneuvering your unit and reporting to higher. You won't have much time for trigger pulling, but you will be running around like a mad man and that is where your physical and mental toughness will come to bear.
Agreed.
I'll take it a little further, none of your men are going to care how well you can shoot an M9. Everyone hates butterbars to begin with, so spend your time learning your job and EARNING the respect of your men, and worry less about being Delta.
Depending on the branch, you could easily get an M16A2 and get no where near a pistol except for once a year qual.
Get through OCS first, get a unit, then figure out the little stuff like what to do with an M9.
Also, the M9 is a turd, so get a Glock :p
If you end up in the Infantry, you'll be carrying an M4/M16 instead of a pistol for the near future anyway.
Shoot for fun, while you can, but concentrate on PT and rifle fundamentals.
It sounds as if a Lt might complete training without knowledge of the service pistol, including safe handling. Where does the young officer learn pistol skills if not in basic or OCS?
Now, if you are looking for an excuse to buy a new handgun or attend some high speed training, then by all means - it may very well save your life and give you props with your troopies (your troops will appreciate your shooting/technical skills far more than your superiors) .
I think you hit the nail on the head, Cobra.
variablebinary
03-16-11, 04:16
It sounds as if a Lt might complete training without knowledge of the service pistol, including safe handling. Where does the young officer learn pistol skills if not in basic or OCS?
You'll be given mags and ammo and forced to stand out in the sun for as long as it takes till you qualify. The longer you take, the more of a retard the enlisted guys will think you are. Expect to have an E6 or above to take the M9 from you at least once and say "Like this, Sir".
sixgun-symphony
03-16-11, 07:44
I agree with much of above. PT and overall mental toughness is the first step. This goes far beyond the APFT. If you'd like to get ready for land nav, look for a local orienteering club.
I disagree though that purchasing a 92 would be a waste. With the caveat that you don't sell your glock to fund it. If you already have a m16/m4 (this weapon purchase should definitely come first) platform rifle and the money won't be a problem, go get a 92. No offense to the experience of the members who have posted so far but the Army's emphasis on pistol training is pretty low. The army will teach you battle drills, land nav, but will not teach you how to proficiently use a pistol.
Do you need one? No way, but if money isn't an obstacle go for it. Real proficiency will small arms is a valuable skill set if you have the time.
My .02
Agreed
You'll be given mags and ammo and forced to stand out in the sun for as long as it takes till you qualify. The longer you take, the more of a retard the enlisted guys will think you are. Expect to have an E6 or above to take the M9 from you at least once and say "Like this, Sir".
Will I be able to keep shooting after I qualify? That sounds fun :cool:
Will I be able to keep shooting after I qualify? That sounds fun :cool:
In my experience the faster you qaulify the less you get to shoot.
Now, if you are looking for an excuse to buy a new handgun or attend some high speed training, then by all means - it may very well save your life and give you props with your troopies (your troops will appreciate your shooting/technical skills far more than your superiors) . But other than that, it won't make much of a difference in your officer career.
+1 that was my experience.
168 hours in a week. More than enough for PT, Land Nav and pistol work. ;)
learning to shoot a pistol well is not all important to the Army. Its also not a priority to becoming a competent officer. It should be way down the food chain of your list of priorities....but still on the list.
But...regardless, you'll likely get one, and should feel an obligation to be proficient with it (and all the other weapons as well). Not just for your own personal safety, but for the fact that you'll probably have a platoon of guys that look up to you, and will notice every little thing you do. Do something unsafe with a pistol...they'll notice, and may decide your unsafe act is okay. Handle it well, shoot it well, fast and efficiently...joe is also going to notice. It won't make a difference on your OERs, but that little area of competance should be encouraged...as well as other areas.
And big Army sure as hell isn't going to teach you to use a pistol well.
168 hours in a week. More than enough for PT, Land Nav and pistol work. ;)
In one of my classes (Intro to Tactical Leadership) we're currently going over land nav. I pretty much have the basics down and now I'm looking to either do lab with the ROTC guys or link up with the local orienteering club.
In one of my classes (Intro to Tactical Leadership) we're currently going over land nav. I pretty much have the basics down and now I'm looking to either do lab with the ROTC guys or link up with the local orienteering club.
Once again, this is good if you have the time, but you need to make sure you have the Army basics down. Most orienteering sportsmen do no do land nav the Army way. They do no use army maps or MGRS maps. Eight digit grid coordinates mean nothing to them. They can help you with terrain association and the like but it will not be the Army way.
Your best bet is to get a local military map (or you can use USGS maps), get a couple of your classmates together, and/or go out on your own. Practice finding points, doing reverse azimuths, orienteering, terrain association, resections, and the like. Use a GPS as a way of checking your answers. Take a ruck and it will also serve as physical conditioning.
Good luck to you. I know the GWOT has changed officer training to a degree since I went through in the 1990s, but don't be surprised to qualify expert with the M16/M4, get E's on your STRAC lanes and tactics, ace your land nav, and still get ranked center of mass behind the chipper and bouncy spotlight rangers who say "hooha" every other word. :rolleyes:
theblackknight
03-16-11, 18:01
YES
Don't listen to this "uncle sam will teach you everything you need to know" bullshit. This initiative killing elmer fudd mindset part of the reason youll see more clueless jokers at the range then average shooters.
Dips then weighted dips will do more for your pushup score than pushups ever will. Before my last PT test (6 years ago) I was up to 5 sets of dips 15 reps with 2 45lbers hanging off the belt 3 times a week. I knocked out 65 pushups in the first minute and completed 97 before the 2 mins were up, didn't matter since I didn't max the run.
YES
Don't listen to this "uncle sam will teach you everything you need to know" bullshit. This initiative killing elmer fudd mindset part of the reason youll see more clueless jokers at the range then average shooters.
I don't think anyone is telling him that the Army will do a good job teaching him to shoot. We all know it won't unless he ends up in a very specialized unit. He will get far far more from a weekend with Larry Vickers, 1000 rounds, and a 92FS then ever will in 30 years as an officer.
What people are saying is that devoting a bunch of time to mastery of the M9 is not going to do much in the way of preparing him for his officer training or really in his officer career. I wish I could say I had a bunch of OER comments that praised me for being the only officer in the Squadron with EIC leg points, or the officer who always qualified expert, or the officer who would spend his money on high speed classes etc but I honestly don't remember a single OER that even mentioned anything to do with small arms other than maintaining 100% accountability of sensitive items and running a couple successful weapons qualifications. Hell, I got much more mileage out of organizing a staff ride and family fun day than I ever did for shooting.
Obviously, obtaining a high level of mastery with ones issued firearm is a goal that every soldier should pursue, especially as an officer who is expected to "set the example," but the Army does not reflect that. In the end, unless he is called upon to use one in direct combat (which he very well may be), a good set of marksmanship skills will only provide indirect benefits to his officer career and at this point in the game it is not going to help him excel in OCS. He won't even see an M9 until he reaches his Officer Basic Course (if even then) and other than having to qualify, it won't affect him there either.
Guys, from all the advice, especially from the OCS grads and other .mil guys, I think I'll just stick with my Glock 21 for now, unless a great deal comes along and I'll snag it anyways. I'm still working on my physical training (I may do the next APFT with the ROTC kids to see where I stand) and trying to balance my regular school work while studying the land nav, etc, material to prepare for OCS. I really appreciate everyone's input and can't wait to be a strong officer.
Good call. Often, the JO's that come through the course exibit poor PT habits and inexperience in any movement with a ruck. The result is fatigue, internalizing, and possibily becoming a liability to the team. Nothing will torpedo your commands morale faster than being the anchor not able to keep up, display poor nav skills that get people lost (or worse) or worry about your own quality of life over those in your charge.
By all means, continue honing basic marksmanship, but that's WAAAAAY down on your priority list for honing your leadership skills.
By all means, continue honing basic marksmanship, but that's WAAAAAY down on your priority list for honing your leadership skills.
I've been working on the leadership skills for years. Do you think a public speaking class would be beneficial? I'm debating it for summer school.
I've been working on the leadership skills for years. Do you think a public speaking class would be beneficial? I'm debating it for summer school.
Absolutely. Confidence and the ability to effectively communicate is one of the key aspects of your prospective career. That and being able to dumb-down your vocabulary for us Bravo's.
You'd probably laugh if you would've heard the OPORD my PL dished out before our last jump. He completely lacks the ability to talk in front of others. I think that'd be not only a good skill, but a great skill for you to posess.
When I was in WLC, the CSM gave us a lecture about making decisions. He told us that the Army doesn't necessarily need you to make the right decision every time, but to just make a decision period.
If you walk in with a commanding presence and convey yourself with confidence, you'll instantly set yourself ahead of your peers.
The best thing a new O can do is listen to the GOOD NCO's below him. Hopefully you get a great PSG to start you off right.
sixgun-symphony
03-16-11, 22:01
Since you are an avid shooter, it would make sense to practice with the Beretta 92FS pistol.
Other soldiers will know that you are an avid shooter, they will expect nothing less than "Expert" from you when your unit goes to the range for qualification.
Since you are an avid shooter, it would make sense to practice with the Beretta 92FS pistol.
I just looked and saw that a local pistol range, one I haven't had the chance to visit yet, allows people to rent a 92FS, so I may try theirs out so it's not completely new and I still don't go out and spend not completely necessary money on a new pistol (even though I want to). Wonder if they'll let me practice field stripping it...
variablebinary
03-17-11, 05:41
In my experience the faster you qaulify the less you get to shoot.
We are lucky in the sense that my commander ensures we fire every drop of ammo we are allocated.
I qual'ed on my first run, and he let me go back several times to improve my score. When that was done, we just did mag dumps on burst till all the ammo was gone. Fun day.
Someone has already said to focus on BRM, and in my experience the PL spends most his time on the radio, so you need to know just about everything needed to talk to the CDR or an adjacent unit. You also need to know where you’re at with map and compass as well as new gadgets we have.
One of the things I was told as a young soldier was the PSG gets you out of the fight you're in; the PL gets you ready for the next one. Good luck and thanks for doing your part.
The absolute worst, asinine, antiquated, and mind-numbing "training" I have received was in military, esp US Army schools. The infrastructure is geared toward pushing people through with the bare minimum of capability at the end.
The absolute best shooting, driving, mountaineering, orienteering, skydiving, medical, etc. training was from civilians who live & love that one slice O pie. If they can make a living from it in the free market... assuredly better than some douche assigned to a training command.
I would heartily recommend garnering experiences from civilian enthusiast in the afore mentioned areas. For military leaders.. navigation will be key. Confident public speaking will set one well for any career path, esp in leading men. In shooting, I would recommend finding an instructor with experience in a premier unit.
As far as pistol choice.. use what you will be carrying for work... thorns and all.
So I went to the range today and used the 92FS. Due to time constraints I was only able to shoot 125 rounds. It was a bit to get used to shooting it, with the smaller grip and closer trigger compared to my Glock 21, but overall I found it fairly comfortable. That double action is still something I'm not used to. After about 10 shots of getting the rust out, I, shooting at the silhouette target at 10 yards, had a almost all of my head shots in the 9 ring or better, with the rest in the 8 ring. For the chest target I increased my tempo a bit and still had similar results as the head shots, just with a few more 8-ringers. I'm far from successful with the pistol but I think with enough practice I will be able to handle it pretty well.
I've been working on the leadership skills for years. Do you think a public speaking class would be beneficial? I'm debating it for summer school.
I found this thread a couple days late, but I'm glad you mentioned this. I've just been where you want to be. I'm a new LT, freshly finished at the school house and working on getting orders to my first unit.
To answer your original question, working on your skills with a Beretta won't hurt, but don't go too far out of your way to do it unless you just want to. You'll fire live rounds from individual weapons during Basic Training (M16 qualification, and M249/M240B/M2 familiarization), and during the fundamentals track of your branch course (M16 or M4 qualification, depending on your MOS). At OCS, you will not fire live rounds. It's a leadership school, not a tactics school.
To get through Basic without issue, just do what you're told to the best of your ability. There really is no reward for future officer candidates for excelling at Basic.
For OCS, Land Navigation and exams get a lot of people recycled. What you have probably not been told is that your physical performance in the first half of the course is what will get you the MOS you want. PT your butt off if you want to take chance out of getting the job you want.
For BOLC, you need to be able to COMMUNICATE, speaking and in writing. Nothing the Army teaches you at BCT or OCS will prepare you for giving OPORDs at BOLC if you are not a comfortable public speaker. This is the number one thing I have seen guys recycled for at BOLC. My experience is with Armor, but I would imagine other branches are the same.
theblackknight
03-18-11, 17:31
I don't think anyone is telling him that the Army will do a good job teaching him to shoot. We all know it won't unless he ends up in a very specialized unit. He will get far far more from a weekend with Larry Vickers, 1000 rounds, and a 92FS then ever will in 30 years as an officer.
What people are saying is that devoting a bunch of time to mastery of the M9 is not going to do much in the way of preparing him for his officer training or really in his officer career. I wish I could say I had a bunch of OER comments that praised me for being the only officer in the Squadron with EIC leg points, or the officer who always qualified expert, or the officer who would spend his money on high speed classes etc but I honestly don't remember a single OER that even mentioned anything to do with small arms other than maintaining 100% accountability of sensitive items and running a couple successful weapons qualifications. Hell, I got much more mileage out of organizing a staff ride and family fun day than I ever did for shooting.
Obviously, obtaining a high level of mastery with ones issued firearm is a goal that every soldier should pursue, especially as an officer who is expected to "set the example," but the Army does not reflect that. In the end, unless he is called upon to use one in direct combat (which he very well may be), a good set of marksmanship skills will only provide indirect benefits to his officer career and at this point in the game it is not going to help him excel in OCS. He won't even see an M9 until he reaches his Officer Basic Course (if even then) and other than having to qualify, it won't affect him there either.
You guys are acting like he can only pick one activity to improve himself. I know most troop types will respect a staff type way more for being a stud at the range then organizing a poker run for the bike club.
RogerinTPA
03-18-11, 18:20
The absolute worst, asinine, antiquated, and mind-numbing "training" I have received was in military, esp US Army schools. The infrastructure is geared toward pushing people through with the bare minimum of capability at the end.
The absolute best shooting, driving, mountaineering, orienteering, skydiving, medical, etc. training was from civilians who live & love that one slice O pie. If they can make a living from it in the free market... assuredly better than some douche assigned to a training command.
I would heartily recommend garnering experiences from civilian enthusiast in the afore mentioned areas. For military leaders.. navigation will be key. Confident public speaking will set one well for any career path, esp in leading men. In shooting, I would recommend finding an instructor with experience in a premier unit.
As far as pistol choice.. use what you will be carrying for work... thorns and all.
Agreed. My O training in firearms was abysmal to say the least. Most if not all training was geared towards check the block and not proficiency.
Yes, but worry more right now about your ability to PT.
Once you get commissioned and finish your OBC (or what ever it is called now) seek additional training and unfortunately much of it is not service provided.
You guys are acting like he can only pick one activity to improve himself. I know most troop types will respect a staff type way more for being a stud at the range then organizing a poker run for the bike club.
EXACTLY!!!
You guys are acting like he can only pick one activity to improve himself. I know most troop types will respect a staff type way more for being a stud at the range then organizing a poker run for the bike club.
You are correct.
I think the guy has gotten a bunch of advise, most of it good, and a good picture of what to expect in OCS and his career with regards to small arms training. Him becoming good with a pistol WILL make him a better officer and soldier, it just won't help him get through OCS nor will his raters likely care what he can do with his pistol.
Spurholder
03-19-11, 11:55
You are correct.
I think the guy has gotten a bunch of advise, most of it good, and a good picture of what to expect in OCS and his career with regards to small arms training. Him becoming good with a pistol WILL make him a better officer and soldier, it just won't help him get through OCS nor will his raters likely care what he can do with his pistol.
Ain't that the truth - only additional advice I could give the OP is to master PowerPoint early. :)
Ain't that the truth - only additional advice I could give the OP is to master PowerPoint early. :)
So these years of pointless high school and college PPT presentations are actually going to pay off? like
Spurholder
03-19-11, 12:07
So these years of pointless high school and college PPT presentations are actually going to pay off? like
Oh, Grasshopper, if you only knew...:D But for goodness sakes, don't tell anyone unless you have to. It's not a skill to advertise, lest you be "THAT GUY" that updates the dailies.
My final exam for ILE (Command and General Staff College) back in early 2009 was a monster PowerPoint slide show. I shit you not.
I am an Officer as well. Absolutely no NEED to practice with the M9. I didnt even carry one down range except for on the FOB. Learn to LEAD and dont let any of your guys out PT you and you will be well on your way to earning their respect and trust.
Although, it doesnt hurt to outshoot them on the range either.
The top PFT scores and Weapons Quals (M4, no one gives a shit about M9) at my unit are ALWAYS the four officers followed by everyone else. It does help to set the standard and they know you arent some fat kid who plays WOW and casts spells all weekend.
Rick
Focus on being able to communicate (both written and verbal) via OPORDs and Land Nav. Physical fitness is a given for anyone in the Army, it is very important and you should be spending enough time throughout the week on it. The new PT tests starting next fiscal year will be harder and require more than just push ups, sit ups, and running 2 miles so be prepared for all around fitness and not just acing that PT test. Also be prepared for death by powerpoint. Good luck and train hard.
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