View Full Version : Vltor A5 EMOD on a 14.5" middy???
USNsheepdog
03-12-11, 12:27
I'm going to be ordering the parts to build my AR this weekend. The upper I'm geting is a 14.5" with a mid-length gas system and I was originally going with a milspec carbine receiver extention and an H2 buffer. But I was looking around and found the EMOD by Vltor and it seems like the performance of it is pretty good compared to the A2 stock but that's on a rifle length gas system and a 20" barrel. Does anybody have experience with or know how this system would perform on a mid-length gas system and a 14.5" barrel?
Thanks.
Do a search:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75637
jonconsiglio
03-12-11, 12:45
The EMOD is just a stock, the A5 is the receiver extension. There are numerous threads about it's performance with various set ups.
USNsheepdog
03-12-11, 12:46
I did a search for something on this but couldn't find anything. Thanks for the link though, it really helps.
Iraqgunz and I were at Vltor a few weeks back. In order to use the A5 on a 14.5 middy, you need to run the lighter buffer.
Pretty much every other AR runs perfect with an A5.
Lighter buffer being the H2 or stock 5oz A5?
I'm using an A5 on a 16" with an intermediate gas system. With the A5H3 buffer, I had one fail to lock on empty. No problems with the stock A5 buffer. Mag was a 20 round PMAG, no BAD lever or anything like that.
USNsheepdog
03-12-11, 14:40
Iraqgunz and I were at Vltor a few weeks back. In order to use the A5 on a 14.5 middy, you need to run the lighter buffer.
So which buffer do I need to get? I'm ordering all my stuff from BCM.
So which buffer do I need to get? I'm ordering all my stuff from BCM.
To someone's earlier post, it may depend on your setup. Let me first say that VLTOR's support for their products is fantastic and they've help me through my A5 adoption. With that said, the A5 buffer & tube did not work well on my 14.5 Mid Length (DD) reliably with the default A5 buffer. There just wasn't enough gas to cycle effectively and it short-stroked every 4th round or so.
Using an A5 and a spare Carbine buffer, the folks at VLTOR walked me through various configs until I found the one that worked for me. This involved basically dis-assembling the A5 buffer to reduce weight until I had the right setup, very easy to do.
The A5 starts with 4 weights inside, 2 Steel and 2 Tungsten. Here are some reference configs (using my postal scale, so your weights may vary):
A5 Buffer: 5.3oz
A5 Mod1: 4.5 oz (3 steel + 1 tungsten)
ST-T2: 3.9 oz (reference point, haven't tried this with an A5 buffer)
A5 Mod2: 3.6 oz (4 steel)
Carbine: 2.9 oz
Basically, just swapped out the weights from the Carbine buffer to the A5. With 'Mod1' above, it was much better and only short-stroked once in about 70 rounds. Mod2, 4 steel weights, was the sweet-spot for my 14.5 Mid and it now functions flawlessly.
I've got a local 3 gun event in a couple of weeks, but after that I may try increasing weight (Spikes or Mod1 of the A5 above) and see what I get.
Hope this helps. Again, I like the A5 and I'm sticking with it, VLTOR are great to deal with for customer support, so buy with confidence if you are leaning towards the A5.
jonconsiglio
03-12-11, 15:59
^ thanks for posting that. That may very well come in handy on my 14.5" build. I figured since both my SR15's run fine with it, a 14.5" Middy would too, but maybe not.
What ammo are you using with your 14.5" DD mid-length?
If I had to put that much work into making the A5 function, I would ditch it.
What ammo are you using with your 14.5" DD mid-length?
That's a good reference point, I should have mentioned it. Using .223, no higher power 5.56. Was specifically using PMC Bronze .223 for the above exercise. Using 5.56 was recommended as an alternative, but since I have boatloads of .223, that's what I have to make work if you know what I mean.
Before the A5, I had both a VLTOR iMod carbine buffer / tube and a UBR with ST-T2, both carbine buffer configs on the 14.5 DD Mid functioned perfectly.
I know what you mean about ammo. None of the shops around here carry anything good. It's all PMC Bronze, Wolf or Silver Bear.
I have to order good stuff on my own.
I just wouldn't run on the ragged edge of reliability for the sake of the almost mystic quest at eliminating recoil. While I admit I've been drawn to the A5 based on the statements of how much it helps in that reduction, at some point you're fighting for small incremental changes, sometime at the sake of function.
Iraqgunz and I were at Vltor a few weeks back. In order to use the A5 on a 14.5 middy, you need to run the lighter buffer.
Pretty much every other AR runs perfect with an A5.
I used an A5 with a 6 oz buffer (not the normal 5 oz) with "Green" (ie stiffer than normal) Sprinco spring exclusively at a CTT Solutions class on a 14.5" DD midlength. No issues with Prvi Partizan ammo. No failures to lock back even with Wolf ammo.
Depends on the shooter and ammo. The A5 is more forgiving than other buffer systems.
Robb Jensen
03-12-11, 17:45
To someone's earlier post, it may depend on your setup. Let me first say that VLTOR's support for their products is fantastic and they've help me through my A5 adoption. With that said, the A5 buffer & tube did not work well on my 14.5 Mid Length (DD) reliably with the default A5 buffer. There just wasn't enough gas to cycle effectively and it short-stroked every 4th round or so.
Using an A5 and a spare Carbine buffer, the folks at VLTOR walked me through various configs until I found the one that worked for me. This involved basically dis-assembling the A5 buffer to reduce weight until I had the right setup, very easy to do.
The A5 starts with 4 weights inside, 2 Steel and 2 Tungsten. Here are some reference configs (using my postal scale, so your weights may vary):
A5 Buffer: 5.3oz
A5 Mod1: 4.5 oz (3 steel + 1 tungsten)
ST-T2: 3.9 oz (reference point, haven't tried this with an A5 buffer)
A5 Mod2: 3.6 oz (4 steel)
Carbine: 2.9 oz
Basically, just swapped out the weights from the Carbine buffer to the A5. With 'Mod1' above, it was much better and only short-stroked once in about 70 rounds. Mod2, 4 steel weights, was the sweet-spot for my 14.5 Mid and it now functions flawlessly.
I've got a local 3 gun event in a couple of weeks, but after that I may try increasing weight (Spikes or Mod1 of the A5 above) and see what I get.
Hope this helps. Again, I like the A5 and I'm sticking with it, VLTOR are great to deal with for customer support, so buy with confidence if you are leaning towards the A5.
Very interesting. I was hoping that the lengths in a CAR size buffer and the A5 were the same size. I've been wanting to lighten my 5oz buffer in my main 3gun rifle just a bit to speed the bolt up just a little. I'm very used to it being a bit faster for shooting fast 3gun stages inside of 50yds. I'm thinking I'll try the A5 Mod 2 weight first and then move up if I don't like it.
Depends on the shooter GAS PORT and ammo. The A5 is more forgiving than other buffer systems.
I basically agree. I'm a huge fan of the rifle buffer system and the A5 concept FOR SURE.
eternal24k
03-13-11, 14:02
My DD 14.5" middy cycles and holds bolt with standard A5 buffer, Colt spring, and PMC Bronze
USNsheepdog
03-13-11, 15:02
It seems like there's a lot of guys having no problems with it but some who do. I think ammo is a big factor in how it's gonna perform. Some of you are having issues with it are shooting 223, but has anyone used it with 556?
jonconsiglio
03-13-11, 18:55
I just put mine on within the last two weeks. I have about 800 rounds of xm193 and about 400 or so of .223, mixed. Never an issue and this is on an SR15. I tried my other SR15's upper as well as it has the smaller gas ports. Both ran perfect. I'll be putting this on all my guns soon. 10.5" through 16", carbine, muddy and KAC SR15 gas systems.
Reports of some 14.5" mids being the softest shooting guns ever makes me wonder about gas port size. In my shooting the 14.5" mid feels almost exactly the same as a 16" mid.
I've shot every configuration we make with an A5 (standard weight) without any issue.
Reports of some 14.5" mids being the softest shooting guns ever makes me wonder about gas port size. In my shooting the 14.5" mid feels almost exactly the same as a 16" mid.
I've shot every configuration we make with an A5 (standard weight) without any issue.
Man... Iraqgunz and I were out yesterday shooting the BCM 14.5 middy with an H and H2 buffer... and it shot noticeably smoother than even a 20" A2.
Iraqgunz also built a 16" BCM middy a month back... and it felt just right. The 14.5 is almost too smooth with .223 ammo... to the point that it's almost too much of a good thing.
Were you guys shooting it side by side with an A2?
markm has an A2 style clone musket.
Were you guys shooting it side by side with an A2?
markm has an A2 style clone musket.
We do civil war reinactments when we're out there!! :D
Robb Jensen
03-15-11, 14:00
I made a couple of my 6oz A5H3s in to the A5Mod1 4.55oz (my scale) A5 Mod 1s to try in my KAC SR15E3, BCM 14.5" BFH midlength, BCM 16" midlength 3gun rifle, and my BCM 12.5" SBR.
I have a BCM 14.5 middy L/W with BC w a H buffer . I put it on my Colt RR and dumped a mag with xm193 and can't believe how smooth it is shoot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZBsR8xlgmw
My DD 14.5" LW upper was not reliable with the A5 kit including standard buffer. Weak ejection and a couple of bolt over bullet malfunctions using full (.223) power 77gr SMK reloads. I also had weak ejection with a 55 gr load that's reliable in everything else, (but no malfunctions in limited testing.)
I swapped the complete A5 lower to the 16" N4 Light Basic and all is well. The other lower with CTR, carbine extension, and H buffer went to the 14.5" - which made it 100%. The 14.5" now fits in my M4 soft case as well.
Do you know your gas port size?
Robb Jensen
03-19-11, 10:34
I shot my 16" BCM chrome-lined barrel 3gun rifle and my KAC SR15E3 with a VLTOR A5 Mod 1 buffer (4.55oz) this is just a A5 5oz buffer but with one of the tungsten weights replaced with a steel one. Both rifles felt a bit better and cycled smoother and flatter with the muzzle lift vs using the 5oz buffer. The KAC ran 100% with Black Hills 55gr, PMC Bronze 55gr, Black Hills 62gr TSX red box. It wouldn't run at all with Wolf. It wouldn't even eject the empty 50% of the time. The BCM ran 100% with the all the same Black Hills and PMC and would run and cycle the Wolf just fine but wouldn't lock back with empty. The whole while when shooting Wolf it felt like it wasn't even hitting the back of the buffer tube/receiver extension it felt like the bolt carrier was going rearward enough for ejection, cocking and feeding but buffer didn't feel like it was hitting the back of the buffer tube/receiver extension. The bolt velocity felt very different from round to round using Wolf.
I also made two A5 Mod 1 (4.55oz) buffers from my BCM BFH 14.5" midlength SBR and for my 12.5" BCM SBR and will be testing those to guns next week sometime.
While waiting for Vltor to release their "middy" buffer I rolled my own, actually two. As you know the regular A5 (H2) buffer has two tungsten heavy weights, two stainless. Following suggestions made by other posters, I made an H1 (one tungsten), and an H0 (no tungsten, four stainless), 4.5 & 3.6 oz respectively.
Using a Daniel Defense 14.5in middy with a Battlecomp and the regular A5 H2 buffer, I was having very infrequent failures to hold the bolt back with PMC ammo, no problems with Fiocchi . However with ASYM training ammo, the rifle would not cycle at all, I guess because this ammo is loaded weak on purpose (while being the most accurate and softest shooting of the bunch!).
With the H1 4.5oz buffer, the carbine cycled well with the ASYM ammo, but there was one failure to lock the bolt back in ten full magazines. Going to the H0 3.6oz buffer proved 100% reliable.
Function with the Fiocchi ammo, the hottest tested, was perfect, with no failures to feed or bolt over base failures.
The middy was easier to control with these light buffers than with the slightly heavier A5 H2. The combo of the ASYM ammo and the light H0 buffer was incredibly easy to control! That will be my choice with this ammo. For PMC and Fiocchi I will stay with the H1, but for XM193 the regular H2 would be a better choice.
Have any of you tried similar combinations allready?
What ammo are you using with your 14.5" DD mid-length?
If I had to put that much work into making the A5 function, I would ditch it.
I'll second that motion. seeing as the 14.5 mid swings toward the "soft shooting" end of the spectrum away from reliability, I wouldn't understand the purpose of an A5 on this configuration.
likewise, I also don't understand the modern compulsion for a "soft shooting" 5.56. it can't be the harsh recoil - if it is, there are smaller calibers you know...
so it must be recoil control in rapid fire. to this end I would sooner add a muzzle brake or a compensator or some other device that tames muzzle movement rather than something that affects reliability...
I'll second that motion. seeing as the 14.5 mid swings toward the "soft shooting" end of the spectrum away from reliability, I wouldn't understand the purpose of an A5 on this configuration.
likewise, I also don't understand the modern compulsion for a "soft shooting" 5.56. it can't be the harsh recoil - if it is, there are smaller calibers you know...
so it must be recoil control in rapid fire. to this end I would sooner add a muzzle brake or a compensator or some other device that tames muzzle movement rather than something that affects reliability...
Please don't infer that one is trying to tame a harsh recoiling beast with these maneuvers. The ar15 in it's various guises is far from that.
The reason I did the above mentioned trial was that I had bought this boutique training ammo from ASYM, which did not function at all in the mid length AR with the A5 system and the regular buffer. The latter worked perfectly with Fiocchi ammo, but ASYM ammo is more accurate than Fiocchi and I may use it for classes. It works great in carbine length ar's, even with the regular A5.
IMHO the ASYM ammo , middy gas system, and the lighter modded A5 buffers afford the most control in a rapid fire scenario.
That doesn't mean I am about to ditch my 11.5 carbine systems shooting full throttle XM 193.
I'm pretty much a newb about all of this.
I want to build a 14.5" Middy (Spike's Tactical optimum profile) with a pinned flash hider. Not a compensator / brake.
There are so many possible buffer setups... rifle/carbine tubes, springs, buffer weights. :suicide:
Should I go with a Vltor A5 or a Spike's tungsten powder carbine buffer?
The Spikes powdered buffer is largely regarded as snake oil around here. There are a few videos on YouTube which were posted by a forum member and it's shows to be less effective than a standard H buffer.
On the other hand, there are quite a few people here who love the A5. I don't think it did anything miraculous for my rifle, but YMMV.
I'm just running a standard Vltor receiver extension with a Sprinco white spring and a H buffer. I've started playing around with just a standard carbine buffer as well.
EzGoingKev
08-06-11, 14:29
The Spikes powdered buffer is largely regarded as snake oil around here. There are a few videos on YouTube which were posted by a forum member and it's shows to be less effective than a standard H buffer.
I am amazed at the conclusion that was drawn from watching those videos.
IIRC, the buffers tested were an H, H2, H3(?) and a Spikes.
All the buffers tested that were heavier than the H buffer exhibited bolt bounce. This would make me conclude that there is a mass issue, but the I want to hang with the cool kids crowd came up with the Spike's buffer is snake oil.
FWIW, BCM sells the Spike's buffer on there sight, describing it as "This buffer is one of the softest shooting, smoothest and quietest buffers on the market not to mention it looks awesome."
On the other hand, there are quite a few people here who love the A5. I don't think it did anything miraculous for my rifle, but YMMV.
I put it on my rifle and was not impressed either, personally I think the recoil feels harsher. I did buy the heavier buffer but have not had a chance to try it yet.
Please don't infer that one is trying to tame a harsh recoiling beast with these maneuvers. The ar15 in it's various guises is far from that.
The reason I did the above mentioned trial was that I had bought this boutique training ammo from ASYM, which did not function at all in the mid length AR with the A5 system and the regular buffer. The latter worked perfectly with Fiocchi ammo, but ASYM ammo is more accurate than Fiocchi and I may use it for classes. It works great in carbine length ar's, even with the regular A5.
IMHO the ASYM ammo , middy gas system, and the lighter modded A5 buffers afford the most control in a rapid fire scenario.
That doesn't mean I am about to ditch my 11.5 carbine systems shooting full throttle XM 193.
I wasn't trying to infer anything, at least not to any individual in particular.
I was trying to show that there is always a trend, a fad, a flavor-of-the-month that a certain type of individual reads about and then without testing for themselves, assumes that if a little of something is good, a LOT of that something is gooder...
laying aside discussions of buffers, springs, gas port size, going from a carbine length to midlength is good for a 16" rifle.
going from 16" to 14.5" with carbine gas is good.
so some people take this to mean that 14.5" midlength is gooder.
and that throwing a heavier buffer and/or spring in there is even gooderest yet!
I'm not saying it doesn't work - there are many obvious examples where it does. but understanding the compromises in regard to ammo, and buffer and spring combinations, I believe it can be said the the 14.5" swings the pendulum away from the center of the zone of operating performance toward the less reliable end.
no setup is the wrong setup if you understand the forces and issues involved and take steps to ensure reliability. but how many people do you think are out there running a 14.5 middy with some combination of spring and buffer that they saw kewl pics of on the internet, and are totally bewildered when their gun won't cycle low power ammo?
wolf_walker
08-06-11, 15:27
I've wanted to say that for awhile but figured everyone would get all riled up. Anything that makes a gun less ammo-compatible is bad in my book.
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wolf_walker
08-06-11, 16:27
I've wanted to say that for awhile but figured everyone would get all riled up. Anything that makes a gun less ammo-compatible is bad in my book.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
I am amazed at the conclusion that was drawn from watching those videos.
IIRC, the buffers tested were an H, H2, H3(?) and a Spikes.
[b]All[/] the buffers tested that were heavier than the H buffer exhibited bolt bounce. This would make me conclude that there is a mass issue, but the I want to hang with the cool kids crowd came up with the Spike's buffer is snake oil.
FWIW, BCM sells the Spike's buffer on there sight, describing it as "This buffer is one of the softest shooting, smoothest and quietest buffers on the market not to mention it looks awesome."
I put it on my rifle and was not impressed either, personally I think the recoil feels harsher. I did buy the heavier buffer but have not had a chance to try it yet.
It's comical how many threads are here where the user writes of feed/extraction/locking problems et al and always....somehow...a spikes buffer is involved.
BCM sells a lot of things. I don't want many of them in or on my gun.
I think they have grip-pods on there and a really nice Double Star rail.
As to BCMs description...
This buffer is one of the softest shooting, smoothest and quietest buffers on the market not to mention it looks awesome. It doesn't have any weights to move around or fluids to leak out, it's 100% maintenance free!
It weighs in at 4.3oz. (Depending on the density and size of the HDTP, the weight can vary slightly.)
It's CNC machined from Solid Billet Aluminum Bar Stock.
It's Anodized Matte Black and Laser engraved with Spike's Logo.
So you're probably wondering what's inside to make this thing so great and different?
Each buffer is filled with HDTP "High Density Tungsten Powder" so there is No reciprocating weights inside to make a lot of noise. It also makes for a Very Smooth cycling rifle. It eliminates the chance of bolt bounce and muzzle rise in full-auto. It also cuts down on Felt Recoil. It's a HUGE upgrade from a Standard Carbine buffer! It's designed for .223/5.56 but it works in all Calibers!
After its filled with HDTP it's topped off with a mil spec bumper!
I now direct your attention to the description given on Spike's website....
Looking for a heavy buffer to replace your standard carbine buffer? Well, we came up with something that offers the HIGHEST performance at a reasonable price. The ST-T2 buffer is one of the softest shooting, smoothest, and quietest buffers on the market; not to mention it looks awesome! It doesn't have any weights to move around or fluids to leak out like some other buffers, so it's 100% maintenance free!
The ST-T2 buffer weighs in at 117g/4.1oz. (Depending on the density and size of the HDTP, the weight can vary slightly) and the body is CNC machined from solid billet Aluminum bar stock for strength and durability. To finish it all off, it's Anodized matte black and laser engraved with our Logo.
So you're probably wondering what's inside of this thing to make this thing so great and different?
Each ST-T2 buffer is filled with HDTP which is short for "High Density Tungsten Powder" and topped off with a Mil-Spec bumper. Because of this, there aren’t any reciprocating weights inside to make a lot of noise and it also makes for a very smooth cycling rifle. The ST-T2 eliminates the chance of bolt bounce, helps with muzzle rise when firing in full-auto, and cuts down on felt recoil. As you can tell, it's a HUGE upgrade from a Standard Carbine buffer! It's designed for .223/5.56 but it works in all Calibers!
Get one for your AR-15 today and feel the difference!
NOTE: Actual weight can vary between 4.0oz and 4.2oz.
That's what you call a "cut and paste".
I've fallen victim to this too, the mythical quest to eliminate recoil by changing the gun's configuration. Buffers aren't the way to do it. Changing the gas system is, but it is also the most expensive and most difficult to do.
The lightest recoil i've ever gotten out of an AR15 was with my current, with a 16" SS barrel with an intermediate gas system with a H or carbine buffer and a Sprinco white spring. Making the recoiling system heavier doesn't reduce recoil, because all that extra mass is still slamming forward.
EzGoingKev
08-06-11, 17:23
It's comical how many threads are here where the user writes of feed/extraction/locking problems et al and always....somehow...a spikes buffer is involved. And what is the first peice of advice given...switch out the buffer. Between your smart ass swipes i'm surprised you didn't see that.
I must have missed them all, would you please post some links for me?
I would love to see all the scientific testing used to pinpoint that it was specifically the design of the Spike's buffer itself and not the weight of the buffer.
wolf_walker
08-06-11, 18:45
ST/AIM include those buffers with most if not all of the ST uppers they sell. If they are causing problems in a given application I imagine any same weight buffer would in the same gun. All I ever hear about them is that they aren't any better than a rattley one, no worse. Mine works, it was all but free.
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Google works from your computer just as well as mine.
Being that the weight, and variance of, is a part of the design, I don't see how it's any different than an other ill suited or mismatched buffer. Nor do I see any demonstrated benefit to having the buffer weight powdered.
I am also of the view that probably the biggest significant factor to a weapons perceived recoil is the weapons overall weight and of course the ammunition used. Not the buffer.
I thought I read a while back someone was trying to formulate a way to quantify and measure recoil and it's reduction with certian add on parts. While this hasn't materialized yet, it will be a good read when it does.
Not a cool kid argument, just a product I don't see benefit in.
Run what parts you want.
wolf_walker
08-06-11, 19:45
ST/AIM include those buffers with most if not all of the uppers they sell. If they are causing problems in a given application I imagine any same weight buffer would in the same gun. All I ever hear about them is that they aren't any better than a rattley one, no worse. Mine works, it was all but free.
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I wasn't trying to infer anything, at least not to any individual in particular.
....
no setup is the wrong setup if you understand the forces and issues involved and take steps to ensure reliability. but how many people do you think are out there running a 14.5 middy with some combination of spring and buffer that they saw kewl pics of on the internet, and are totally bewildered when their gun won't cycle low power ammo?
Point taken.
All I did was to run a test using a modded A5 system with a particular low powered ammo that has proven reliable and accurate. I modified the A5 buffer because I understood the forces and issues involved, ensuring reliability, and to my satisfaction the combination worked.
Will I run the super light H0 buffer with any other ammo, no; I don't want a battered AR.
Will I buy more of ASYM training ammo for the next class, yes, now that I can run it on both my middies & my carbine length SBR's.
jonconsiglio
08-07-11, 12:46
I think there's quite a misunderstanding of the A5 here. Does a carbine buffer work with every set or does an H3? Nope, and neither does an A5, but it does a heck of a lot better job, barring the occasional 14.5" middy.
For a while, I was running the A5 on my SR15's. I still do at times, but the standard factory set up works fine. I also run it on my other guns and it makes the 10.5" feel like my SR15, but even better, it allows it to eat anything I run through it, and very well at that.
Try it on a 14.5" carbine or especially a 16" with a carbine gas system, you'll see a difference in all but a few occasions. The softer recoil of the A5 on many systems, not all, is a positive side effect allowing quicker shot recovery. If you are buying the A5 for your middy 14.5" or similar, to make your gun softer shooting, you're not buying it for the right reasons.
If you're buying it because it may make your overgassed, SBR'd or finicky rifle more reliable, then you're headed in the right direction. Another reason one should consider the A5 is if they have one or two lowers (maybe SBR'd?) and a handful of uppers, especially if they range from a 10.5" to a 16" or 18" middy or rifle system and often use those uppers on the same lower or two.
I found that the other weekend when hunting that I used my SR15 on my SBR'd Noveske lower as well as my mk18 (block 2, I guess) upper and just left the KAC lower sit in the house. Both performed equally well for three days suppressed, both felt almost exactly the same and both ran everything from Monarch steel cased to Nosler 77 grain and TAP 75 grain.
I posted this a while back and feel more sure that it's true now -- There's obviously a threshold here with the AR and a particular ammo that once it gets to a certain point, it can't get any softer shooting without sacrificing reliability. Believe it or not, sometimes a carbine or H buffer is all we really need for a particular combination of gas system, barrel length and ammo, not to mention the gas port size from that particular manufacturer.
Rifles I have personally seen work with the A5 with no modifications. Ammo was often xm193 and Winchester 55grain .223, but some (the ones that belonged to me) have had a mix of basically everything.
LMT 10.5" mk18
Noveske 10.5" mk18
KAC SR15 16" (both new and old gas port sizing)
Noveske 14.5" carbine gas system
BCM 18" mk12 mod 1 clone
LWRC PSD 8" (could have used a heavier buffer)
PWS Diablo upper in both 5.56 and 7.62x39
Now, I have not seen it fail in any upper I've tried, but there have been times where a different weight would be preferred. Maybe replace one tungsten with steel on the SR15, especially the older, smaller gas port, and maybe replace one stainless with a tungsten for the 8" PSD.
I don't have enough experience with the 14.5" middy to say, but I do know BCM, for example, uses smaller gas ports than Noveske, also for example.
*BONK*
After posting everything showed up... this forum is drunk!:alcoholic:
I think I basically get the idea now.
I'm kinda new to posting here. Anyone know why i'm getting email updates but when i visit the thread the posts are not there and even on the main forum it shows the person who posted last but when I read the thread its not there. :confused:
I don't have enough experience with the 14.5" middy to say, but I do know BCM, for example, uses smaller gas ports than Noveske, also for example.
That's not the first time I've heard Noveske likes healthy gas ports.
That's not the first time I've heard Noveske likes healthy gas ports.
Is this true? Noveske 14.5" mids have bigger holes than BCM? :p
It seems to me that a good solution would be a highly tuneable version of the switchblock... maybe?.... i dunno...
Dirtyboy333
08-10-11, 01:59
I have a 16" carbine gassed DD. Do you guys who have had time on both middies and A5's think i would benefit more from an A5 or a new mid gas barrel?
If i went with the A5 it would kill 2 birds because i'm already set on purchasing the Emod stock. The DD carbine CHF barrel is basically brand new.
Some say that they cant feel much difference at all between mid and car length gas systems but ive also heard the same regarding the A5. So, would i notice more of a felt recoil reduction with the A5 system or installing a middy barrel??? What do you think
Thanks
For reference, i've never fired an AR with either one of these upgrades/options.
After running the A5 system on everything from an 18" SPR, 16" mid, 16" car, and 14.5 mid, I highly recommend it. I am slowly converting all my lowers to the A5 buffer (I have 3 so far). I really appreciate the smoother shooting characteristics, and have found that it works better than a battlecomp, as far as calming down a carbine gas gun.
Now an A5 and a battlecomp- thats the best of everything. But between the two, I would get the A5 first.
In your case, keep the barrel you've got and put an A5 behind it. You will probably be able to run the A5-3, which will further help your carbine gas system.
After running the A5 system on everything from an 18" SPR, 16" mid, 16" car, and 14.5 mid, I highly recommend it. I am slowly converting all my lowers to the A5 buffer (I have 3 so far). I really appreciate the smoother shooting characteristics, and have found that it works better than a battlecomp, as far as calming down a carbine gas gun.
Now an A5 and a battlecomp- thats the best of everything. But between the two, I would get the A5 first.
In your case, keep the barrel you've got and put an A5 behind it. You will probably be able to run the A5-3, which will further help your carbine gas system.
So you haven't had any problems with the A5 on a 14.5 mid?
What buffer are you using and what brand barrel?
Dirtyboy333
08-11-11, 03:20
After running the A5 system on everything from an 18" SPR, 16" mid, 16" car, and 14.5 mid, I highly recommend it. I am slowly converting all my lowers to the A5 buffer (I have 3 so far). I really appreciate the smoother shooting characteristics, and have found that it works better than a battlecomp, as far as calming down a carbine gas gun.
Now an A5 and a battlecomp- thats the best of everything. But between the two, I would get the A5 first.
In your case, keep the barrel you've got and put an A5 behind it. You will probably be able to run the A5-3, which will further help your carbine gas system.
Thanks alot for the recommendation. That's what I'll do. I dont have a battlecomp but I do have a PWS556 coming.
So you haven't had any problems with the A5 on a 14.5 mid?
What buffer are you using and what brand barrel?
I'm using the standard A5 buffer with a BCM barrel. No issues at all with low pressure ammo.
I'm using the standard A5 buffer with a BCM barrel. No issues at all with low pressure ammo.
Wow, thats interesting. People seem quite leery of that setup because the BCM has a smaller gas port. What low pressure ammo have you used? Also what muzzle device are you using?
I'm interested in this setup to negate the need (want) for a brake. I'd rather have a flash suppressor. But I think I would go with a non BCM barrel to be a little on the safer side of reliability.
Can you post any videos?
Ammo- Bear 55 and 62 grain, Remington UMC 55 grain
Battlecomp 1.5
No videos. I don't really see the point, it makes a loud noise, brass ejects, repeat. It works for me. I'm happy. Try this setup, or don't. It makes no difference if other people are "leery," it's my gun. This single particular barrel works with the A5, every other BCM barrel might not. Take it for the sample of one that it is.
Can you post any videos?
I may have already posted this in this thread... but it shows just how slow the A5 cycles with the 14.5 middy in full auto burst.
I could get almost all hits on the target at 50 yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKTZ6jZhupM
I may have already posted this in this thread... but it shows just how slow the A5 cycles with the 14.5 middy in full auto burst.
I could get almost all hits on the target at 50 yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKTZ6jZhupM
Thanks! I have not seen that video.
I saw a vid of a BCM 14.5 with H buffer and battlecomp in full auto... thats the only vid like this that i've seen.
So do you think a BCM 14.5 with A5 extension is reliable? The BCM 14.5 is already really soft.
I didn't even know you had a channel so i will be subscribing. :D
So do you think a BCM 14.5 with A5 extension is reliable? The BCM 14.5 is already really soft.
No. I wouldn't run that set up for anything serious. Carbine spring with H buffer seems to be optimal.
No. I wouldn't run that set up for anything serious. Carbine spring with H buffer seems to be optimal.
That's what I was thinking. What about other brands with bigger gas ports? Or is the A5 on a 14.5 mid too risky in general? (markm's opinion please) :happy:
markm,
Have you had issues again? I thought that the 14.5 ran good with that A5? Or is my Alzheimers kicking in?
No. I wouldn't run that set up for anything serious. Carbine spring with H buffer seems to be optimal.
Dirtyboy333
08-22-11, 04:32
Anybody here have an A5 on a 16" DD CHF carbine gas gun??? Reason i ask is because i want to know what Vltor buffer your using. Those things are pretty expensive.
If i feel the carrier is still moving too fast with the stock A5 buffer it would probably be counterproductive to experiment with a standard H2/H3 in the A5 system, wouldn't it?
Anybody here have an A5 on a 16" DD CHF carbine gas gun??? Reason i ask is because i want to know what Vltor buffer your using. Those things are pretty expensive.
If i feel the carrier is still moving too fast with the stock A5 buffer it would probably be counterproductive to experiment with a standard H2/H3 in the A5 system, wouldn't it?
Hold on man, don't put a regular carbine length H2 or H3 buffer in an A5 receiver extension!!!! Bad things will happen.
Earlier in this or another post I used terminology that may have misled you; in a trial I conducted with home made reduced mass A5 buffers I called the regular weight A5 buffer an H2 because like the carbine gas system H2 it also has two heavy tungsten buffers. I referred to the light ones I fashioned as H1 and H0. A factory Vltor H3 and H4 have three and four heavy tungsten weights respectively.
A carbine length HX buffer in an A5 extension may result in the BCG jamming into the extension, possibly breaking it or hurting you!
If you feel that your 16 inch carbine length barrel is over-gassed, the A5 system may be for you. Purchase the bare A5 tube, a standard rifle length spring, and a Vltor H4 buffer. Then swap out two of the tungsten weights for stainless ones from a carbine buffer. If you still feel the carrier is moving too fast then male an H3 or an H4 by replacing the tungsten weights back in.
It is very likely that all you will need is an A5 with two tungsten weights, maybe three. In the interest of weak ammo compatibilty you should stick with the lightest weight buffer that will cycle your weakest ammo and hold the bolt back all the time. This is critical if you use the cheaper 223 loads out there.
Do not put a short carbine length buffer in an A5 receiver extension!!!
Dirtyboy333
08-23-11, 01:43
Hold on man, don't put a regular carbine length H2 or H3 buffer in an A5 receiver extension!!!! Bad things will happen.
Earlier in this or another post I used terminology that may have misled you; in a trial I conducted with home made reduced mass A5 buffers I called the regular weight A5 buffer an H2 because like the carbine gas system H2 it also has two heavy tungsten buffers. I referred to the light ones I fashioned as H1 and H0. A factory Vltor H3 and H4 have three and four heavy tungsten weights respectively.
A carbine length HX buffer in an A5 extension may result in the BCG jamming into the extension, possibly breaking it or hurting you!
If you feel that your 16 inch carbine length barrel is over-gassed, the A5 system may be for you. Purchase the bare A5 tube, a standard rifle length spring, and a Vltor H4 buffer. Then swap out two of the tungsten weights for stainless ones from a carbine buffer. If you still feel the carrier is moving too fast then male an H3 or an H4 by replacing the tungsten weights back in.
It is very likely that all you will need is an A5 with two tungsten weights, maybe three. In the interest of weak ammo compatibilty you should stick with the lightest weight buffer that will cycle your weakest ammo and hold the bolt back all the time. This is critical if you use the cheaper 223 loads out there.
Do not put a short carbine length buffer in an A5 receiver extension!!!
Thanks for the reply. I too have made my own weight buffers by buying an H3 and using the tungsten weights to whip up what i needed so i understand what your saying. The difference was that they were the standard buffers with 3 weights. Ive never seen a A5 buffer but its nice to know that the standard buffer that comes in the kit has 2 of 4 tungsten.
I would purchase the parts that you recommended but i think i would save more money just buying the whole kit together considering i want the Emod stock with it.
I agree.
The standard A5 buffer that comes with the Emod kit should be fine with your 16 in carbine.
Skyfire1201
09-06-11, 01:38
Will the standard A5 buffer work well with a DD 16" LW middy setup? I'm considering that setup for my next build and would appreciate any info here.
I put together a BCM LW 16'' middy a couple of months back and I installed a Vltor A5 on it. Absolutely no issues with it at all.
Will the standard A5 buffer work well with a DD 16" LW middy setup? I'm considering that setup for my next build and would appreciate any info here.
bnanaphone
09-06-11, 12:50
I put an A5 on my BCM 16" mid-length, BFH LW gun with BC 1.0 and the combination has made my gun feel like a .22 LR. The only times I had any extraction or cycling issues was with wolf 55gr. Once I got through that crap and used some better ammo(Black Hills, Hornady and PMC X-Tac) it has been flawless.
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