Is the "MYTH" of the cycling trigger pulls really a myth???

[theblackknight]

I just got asked on a team from a different company to go shoot the Division matches out at Stone Bay,NC. When turning weapons in, I over heard a bunch talking about the infamous "cycle of triggers" myth/superstition I've hear bouncing around since I got on station here at Lejeune.

For those not familiar, the "theory" is that the A2,A4, M4, whatever has a "cycle" of three(maybe more, **** IDK) different trigger pulls, soo that the shooter, not knowing, can't fudge that shot by his own doing. (I guess?)

When I first heard, I dismissed this almost as fast as I heard it.

Is this truth, some percent of truth, or just competitor mindfudging, along the same lines as lucky underwear on game day, and not eating charms in your MRE(I still won't do THAT:no:)? And if not, since this is the technical forum, why soo? Thanks in advance guys.

PS,search isnt working for me, and I don't trust the rest of the internet with such matters.

[BooneGA]

ETA- I was wrong.


Rick

[ForTehNguyen]

isnt that what a 3 round burst FCG feels like, you are basically cycling through 3 different settings on the FCG. When you shoot it semi and the trigger pull doesnt always feel the same

[Cagemonkey]

An M16A2/A4 or M4 has (3) different trigger pulls ranging from approx 6 to 9 pounds. I'd have to check my manual for specific weight specs. This is do to the spring tension in the burst cam. When I went to the range for annual rifle qualification, you'd see guys cycling their action to set up for the light trigger pull, then load and fire. Being an Armorer, I'd just remove the Burst Cam Spring in my rifle and not have to worry about it. Depending which notch you set the Burst Disconnector on the weapon would either shoot semi or full auto on the Burst setting. SO ITS NO MYTH.

[theblackknight]

So the burst cam is always cycling/engaged, even on semi????

[Cagemonkey]

So the burst cam is always cycling/engaged, even on semi????Yes. The Cam is on the right side if the hammer. It has (6) notches in it. (4) shallow and (2) deep. Its a ratchet type design. The shallow notches disengage the Burst disconnector, the deep notches engage the Burst disconnector. If you remove the hammer and remove the cam from the hammer, you'll see a small round spring in the center of the cam. Remove this spring and put cam back on hammer and reassemble. Depending on which notch the burst disconnector is engaging, the rifle will either fire semi or full auto in the burst position.

[QuietShootr]

I just got asked on a team from a different company to go shoot the Division matches out at Stone Bay,NC. When turning weapons in, I over heard a bunch talking about the infamous "cycle of triggers" myth/superstition I've hear bouncing around since I got on station here at Lejeune.

For those not familiar, the "theory" is that the A2,A4, M4, whatever has a "cycle" of three(maybe more, **** IDK) different trigger pulls, soo that the shooter, not knowing, can't fudge that shot by his own doing. (I guess?)

When I first heard, I dismissed this almost as fast as I heard it.

Is this truth, some percent of truth, or just competitor mindfudging, along the same lines as lucky underwear on game day, and not eating charms in your MRE(I still won't do THAT:no:)? And if not, since this is the technical forum, why soo? Thanks in advance guys.

PS,search isnt working for me, and I don't trust the rest of the internet with such matters.

Not bullshit at all. But when I was in a SARTS unit we used M16A1 triggers by preference for that very reason. The difference in the two points of view, I suspect, is that once you get past the need for a regular surprise break and get to where you're using 'the nudge', three different pulls would be detrimental. At least, that's the way I feel about it.

[Grumpy MSG]

Dumbest sh*t Ive heard in a while. Do you realize what it would take mechanically to do that? The only thing I can think of that they may have mixed up is how the 3 round burst function works.

Not true. If anyone believed this I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

Rick

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnhhhhhh!!:no: Wrong answer. There are actually 6 different pulls, 3 on each side of the burst counter. They aren't hugely different but not having a consistent trigger pull is annoying and that is why early on in the M16A2's efforts in to replace the M14 in Service Rifle Competition, they used M16A1 triggers.

You lose and thank you for playing the game.:haha::haha::haha:

[theblackknight]

Awesome guys, thanks. I guess I'll be running a empty mag and single loading rounds.

[SpaceWrangler]

When I went to the range for annual rifle qualification, you'd see guys cycling their action to set up for the light trigger pull, then load and fire.

Yeah, I used to do that shooting KD.

[Smuckatelli]

Remove this spring and put cam back on hammer and reassemble. Depending on which notch the burst disconnector is engaging, the rifle will either fire semi or full auto in the burst position.

We didn't have any luck getting the rifle to work without the cam spring, when we were first issued them in 84. We also found out that if you put the spring in 'upside down,' the first time you pulled the trigger, the hammer would work, the second time you pulled the trigger, the hammer would only go half way. It was due to the tension I think.

We were lucky that the armor had no clue because we would have been nailed had they found out that we had disassembled the lower receivers.

To the OP, you would probably be better off not worrying about cycling the trigger. You can do this at the beginning of each string of fire but you don't have the time to do it while the targets are up and the clock is running. Something else to keep in mind is that knowing which trigger pull you will be getting could be a double edged sword. You could quickly get to the point where you are anticpating the round and wearing the same underwear.......

If you go the route of high power competition, the armorer could take the burst cam completely off and replace the hammer spring with the type of hammer spring that we have on the civilian AR-15s. this should take out the tension problems. The USMC Rifle Team currently replaces the insides with Geissele two stage triggers.

For a Division Match, I recommend just shooting and not worrying about the trigger pull and have a good time. Don't sweat the small stuff ;)

[seb5]

Yup 6 pulls. To me the aggravating thing about burst is pulling the trigger and gettiing 1, or 2, or 3 rounds the first pull of the trigger. After the first "burst" you get 3. I have no use for the burst. Total waste IMHO. At least in the Navy we aren't saddled with that crap. In the sheriffs office we are issued burst weapons, so there I am. That's where my opinion comes from after performing the armorer's job for several years. Also add extra unneeded parts and it's a fail.

[Sgt_Gold]

I've shot many TAG and MAC matches with the A2\burst trigger rifles. The issue of finding the 'right' trigger in the burst ratchet is largely a mental issue. I've dry fired more M16\M4's than I can remember, and I never found a trigger that had enough variance in felt weight to have any effect on actual accuracy. The 'cycle of triggers' is just another thing that way too many shooters get into their heads, and let it effect their shooting in terms of blaming bad results on something that in reality has no effect on weapon performance.

[theblackknight]

We didn't have any luck getting the rifle to work without the cam spring, when we were first issued them in 84. We also found out that if you put the spring in 'upside down,' the first time you pulled the trigger, the hammer would work, the second time you pulled the trigger, the hammer would only go half way. It was due to the tension I think.

We were lucky that the armor had no clue because we would have been nailed had they found out that we had disassembled the lower receivers.

To the OP, you would probably be better off not worrying about cycling the trigger. You can do this at the beginning of each string of fire but you don't have the time to do it while the targets are up and the clock is running. Something else to keep in mind is that knowing which trigger pull you will be getting could be a double edged sword. You could quickly get to the point where you are anticpating the round and wearing the same underwear.......

If you go the route of high power competition, the armorer could take the burst cam completely off and replace the hammer spring with the type of hammer spring that we have on the civilian AR-15s. this should take out the tension problems. The USMC Rifle Team currently replaces the insides with Geissele two stage triggers.

For a Division Match, I recommend just shooting and not worrying about the trigger pull and have a good time. Don't sweat the small stuff ;)


Yeah, after the first day of seeing guys drilling golf tees at the 500, i knew i wouldnt be winning any rifles:sarcastic:. So I shot the whole thing sans any type of sling, and didnt do too bad. I did ok with the pistol, i think I was target 26 going into the first match day. I could have done a lot better if I hadnt been asked to shoot the match the thrusday before it started. We got 3rd in team pistol behind both Parris Island teams, if we would have had the practice time they did, or any, we would have been Rowdy.

It was lots of fun tho, and cool shooting w the Brits.

[Smuckatelli]

It was lots of fun tho, and cool shooting w the Brits.

That's the most important thing, to have fun and learn.

Target 26, that's pretty good shooting especially since you were basically voluntold and probably changed your underwear everyday;), congrats.

I managed to work myself into target 2, relay 1 at my first division match. Being as cocky as I was.......by the time I was at the 500...I was concerned about losing my expert. Moving from the 200 to 300, I looked at the wrong side of the rifle. I dialed in 600 yrds instead of 300....:rolleyes:. I lost the first two rounds on the slow fire, finally realized how stupid I was, hit the V ring and then there was...cease fire cease fire.....I lost 4 rounds and totalled screwed up my attitude.

[usmc1371]

I saw a few guys working the bolt to get to the "sweet" trigger pull when I shot at camp Hanson in Okie, when the scores came in it seems to me that while they were jacking around with the trigger they should have been watching the range flags. I used my time to get a feel for the flags that went from limp to full value and never stayed in one place for long. I left the range company high shooter for 9th ESB.

I did alot of double action revolver shooting befor the Marines tried to re-teach me how to shoot and I think that really helped with the trigger control. To this day I can't stand the trigger in the M16, 9 pounds... why? (I know why) But it still bugged me.

Twice I went to the range, twice I was company high, twice got invited to shoot division matches, Bothe times the matches were during elk season. There are two elk who wish I had shot the matches.

[rsilvers]

One of many problems with the burst trigger. Others are:

1. More complex.
2. If you release the trigger mid-burst, then the next burst will only have the remaining shots.
3. No useful reason for it anyway. If you can't train people to shoot fewer shots then give them semi autos.

[CAVDOC]

the Army put in it's rules for matches you could not put an a2 upper on an a1 lower to improve trigger pull/consistency so it is no myth

[Scorpion]

Just because the Army says it doesn't mean it isn't a myth.

In my limited experience, I was too focused on fundamentals and didn't notice a difference when firing.

[usmcvet]

So no issue with the FA FCG?