View Full Version : Who Shoots at 50 Yards?
I do fairly often. Anyone else train at this distance regularly?
Okie John
NC Buckeye
03-13-11, 19:54
If I have a target at that distance for some reason (e.g. getting a rifle on paper, target shooting the 10/22, some AR drills), I typically will fire 3-5 shots, but I don't train for that distance.
I do once in a while. Typically only when I have the steel out. More often then not I just do it while at matches, as there's often some steel at 50+ yards we have to hit with handgun.
GLOCKMASTER
03-13-11, 20:06
I practice from 50 and 100 yards on a regular basis.
I do it a couple times a month on average out at the PD range. This was from last trip. 4 rounds of American Eagle 180 grn .40 out of my duty Glock 22.
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/50yardtarget.jpg
As a civilian training for home or self defense I would have a hard time convincing a judge that I was defending myself and didn't have the option to escape if I shot someone at 50 yards. Therefore why train at a range I will never likely use. That said once in a while I will try 50 yards just for fun or to diagnose a subtle zeroing problem.
Yes I do as our departmental qualification ranges from the 1 yard line out to the 50 yard line. A number of years ago a guy in the department had to engage an active shooter at 80 yards with his Glock 21C and dropped him. Since then, the department has insisted on maintaining some distance training in addition to the increased up close training.
I have shot steel out to 50 yards during classes but rarely train at those distances. When I do shoot at those distances it us usually a supported position; prone, bumper of a vehicle, tree etc.
ZGXtreme, Bravo on your colleague taking care of business. That is impressive!
Absolutely. As often as i am able.
Shooting at distance with a handgun requires PERFECT fundamentals.
Sight alignment and trigger press must be done absolutely perfectly in order to hit your target.
Shooting at distance will magnify any deficiencies in your fundamentals whereas shooting at 3 yards can very easily mask issues.
I do in field shooting in remote areas with the proper backstop and sometimes stretch the range to 100 yards.
Eurodriver
03-13-11, 20:46
As a civilian training for home or self defense I would have a hard time convincing a judge that I was defending myself and didn't have the option to escape if I shot someone at 50 yards. Therefore why train at a range I will never likely use. That said once in a while I will try 50 yards just for fun or to diagnose a subtle zeroing problem.
I can completely understand where you are coming from, but practicing with 100 rounds at 50 yards will help your fundamentals infinitely more than 1000 rounds at 5 yards.
Also, I don't ever see it happening. But if a guy is 50 yards away and is shooting at me, I don't want to wait until then to figure out my kentucky windage.
I can completely understand where you are coming from, but practicing with 100 rounds at 50 yards will help your fundamentals infinitely more than 1000 rounds at 5 yards.
My local range is only 25 yards but I usually put a few mags through at this distance for this very reason. The challenge is fun too. I'll have to try 50 yards out in the desert to see how I do.
Absolutely. As often as i am able.
Shooting at distance with a handgun requires PERFECT fundamentals.
Sight alignment and trigger press must be done absolutely perfectly in order to hit your target.
Shooting at distance will magnify any deficiencies in your fundamentals whereas shooting at 3 yards can very easily mask issues.
Great point. Realizing what a great diagnostic tool it is I suppose I should do it more often. Shooting from the supported position as I have been doing at that distance would aid in hiding any poor trigger habits I have formed.
As a civilian training for home or self defense I would have a hard time convincing a judge that I was defending myself and didn't have the option to escape if I shot someone at 50 yards.
Have you consulted with an attorney on this or is this mis-guided gun forum bullshit?
What about defending others?
50yds isn't as far away from things as people may think. While statistically unlikely to be an actual engagement distance, folks should have an ability to hit targets from that yard line.
I shoot at 35, 50yds, and beyond. Not as well as I'd like, but that's the point.
Even as a plain old un-official CCW person, shooting at distance can happen.
Think active-shooter at your local mall. How far is one of the hallway commons in that building?
How far across is the parking lot?
Look up the train station pics of the Mumbai attack. There is one where one of the bad guys is in profile, AK in hand, like this one;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1239345/England-manager-denies-claims-country-pull-2010-Commonwealth-Games-Delhi.html
Anyone telling me they wouldn't try and take that shot if it was given to them instead of the guy there that day with the camera?
I sure as hell would, and be glad I practiced at distance as I did so.
OK, so a lot of us train out to 50 yards.
What are your typical groups like at that range? I ask because I'm all over the paper (20"x21") with a G19, but I can hold 6-10 inches with a BHP, a 1911, or a Smith revolver from the Weaver stance.
It's driving me nuts...
Okie John
OK, so a lot of us train out to 50 yards.
What are your typical groups like at that range? I ask because I'm all over the paper (20"x21") with a G19, but I can hold 6-10 inches with a BHP, a 1911, or a Smith revolver from the Weaver stance.
It's driving me nuts...
Okie John
Are you shooting stock trigger and sights?
UXO Bombtech
03-13-11, 22:02
I'm new to the forum and I was recommended from a friend. I shoot at 50 yrds when I know I want to miss lol. I am more accurate at 30 range but I believe that proficiency at 50 is a must so I continue to work on it. I have been favoring my Springfield XD Sub-Compact 40. I'm interested in any more pointers that you all that are more proficient at 50 are willing to give.
but practicing with 100 rounds at 50 yards will help your fundamentals infinitely more than 1000 rounds at 5 yards.
No, not necessarily. I was shown an exercise by a retired Navy SEAL where he demanded 5 rounds in one hole at 5 yards. Not holes touching, but one single hole. He gave 5 attempts to do so. Many students didn't get it, and few more could only get holes to touch but no superimpose. Those who got it right had their enthusiasm curbed pretty fast when he proceeded to demand the same with strong and weak hands only.
One hell of a fundamentals builder, I use it quite often now.
OK, so a lot of us train out to 50 yards.
What are your typical groups like at that range? I ask because I'm all over the paper (20"x21") with a G19, but I can hold 6-10 inches with a BHP, a 1911, or a Smith revolver from the Weaver stance.
At this distance, I don't shoot for groups. I print an 8 inch circle on a regular 11 inch piece of paper (eats a lot of printer ink) and then count hit ratio. I get anywhere from 2/3 to 3/4 hit ratio with 1911 and high quality ammo, and about 50% with regular ammo, although sometimes I do as poorly as 1/3. Haven't done this with G19, but I am sure my hit ratio will go down.
Are you shooting stock trigger and sights?
Stock trigger and Trijicon night stghts.
Okie John
Stock trigger and Trijicon night stghts.
Okie John
The I would say try it off a benchrest (bags) to see what the pistol is capable of.
Based on the other handguns you named, I suspect it is the Glock trigger that needs to be mastered. First time I fired it I hated it... reminded me of a rat trap getting sprung. For all my range sessions after I got the G19, I practiced with it and nothing else to learn the trigger.
Good luck!
The I would say try it off a benchrest (bags) to see what the pistol is capable of.
Based on the other handguns you named, I suspect it is the Glock trigger that needs to be mastered. First time I fired it I hated it... reminded me of a rat trap getting sprung. For all my range sessions after I got the G19, I practiced with it and nothing else to learn the trigger.
I tried it off the bags at 25 yards today and got a 9" group. Doubling the range would at least double the group, which is about what I've been getting.
I've got about 3,500 rounds through this one, with a focus specifically on mastering the trigger. I can keep an entire magazine in a cluster the size of a nickel at 10 yards, but greater distance remains an issue.
If anyone has drills that would help, I'm all ears.
Okie John
I tried it off the bags at 25 yards today and got a 9" group. Doubling the range would at least double the group, which is about what I've been getting.
I've got about 3,500 rounds through this one, with a focus specifically on mastering the trigger. I can keep an entire magazine in a cluster the size of a nickel at 10 yards, but greater distance remains an issue.
If anyone has drills that would help, I'm all ears.
Okie John
Did you zero the sights at 10 yards? That can be an issue. I bought my M&P and got the DCAEK installed at the same time I bought it and had to re-zero the gun. I was able to to keep great groups at 7 yards but when I went longer distances (15-20 yds) It was a disaster. I zeroed the M&P at 25 yds and I am able to keep very good groups. I keep them around 5-6 inches now at that distance which is great for me.
……………..Shooting at distance with a handgun requires PERFECT fundamentals.
Sight alignment and trigger press must be done absolutely perfectly in order to hit your target.
Shooting at distance will magnify any deficiencies in your fundamentals whereas shooting at 3 yards can very easily mask issues.
Slam dunk, touch down, and home run.
I shoot at 50m with my USP45c about once a month. Even in the absence of the benefits for fundamentals, I would still shoot at this distance. I do believe a non-LE civilian could find him/herself in a situation where some BG at that distance needed to be killed.
I tried it off the bags at 25 yards today and got a 9" group. Doubling the range would at least double the group, which is about what I've been getting.
I've got about 3,500 rounds through this one, with a focus specifically on mastering the trigger. I can keep an entire magazine in a cluster the size of a nickel at 10 yards, but greater distance remains an issue.
If anyone has drills that would help, I'm all ears.
Okie John
You might try a 6 'oclock hold on a bullseye target off the bag (if you haven't already).
You might try a 6 'oclock hold on a bullseye target off the bag (if you haven't already).
Doing that, too.
Okie John
QuickStrike
03-14-11, 05:19
I wish I had access to a pistol range that big (preferably outdoors).
Probably wouldn't suck too bad with my 1911(SA PRO), but with others, I dunno...
And this is despite me shooting the others a lot more, because of the price of .45ACP.
wetidlerjr
03-14-11, 05:52
I do some shooting with my 22LR pistols at 50 yds. and I often find I do better at that distance than at some of my 25 yd. shooting. :confused:
:D
I shoot at 50 about a 10-20 sessions per year, quite a bit more than that at 25 yds. Its brutally difficult too with my chosen Glock weapons. Smith and Wesson revolvers are much easier to use at that distance in my experience.
Sights really factor in as I've found it very common that 9mm guns striking 10 ring on a 8" bull at 25 yds sometimes are hitting way high at 50. Like a couple of feet. I've got a Gen 4 G19 with Warren carry sights that's high like that at 50 but zero'd for 100. ;) And once managed a 10 shot group at 100 about a foot in diameter - rested.
But typically, if I can shoot an 8" group at 50 yds, offhand with a Glock 17, I'm pleased, and I'm probably pleased no more than half of the time.
It's no joke about 50 yds exposing flaws. Even 25 yds doesn't so much. I have lately been keeping 5 on a 3x5 card at 25 yds offhand slowfire with a RTF2 G17 but no better than I described at 50.
When I last had my TRP which would shoot rested 25 yds groups under 2" - rested or otherwise, I couldn't shoot it any better at 50 than I could my Glocks. One of many several reasons I parted ways with the 1911.
I love going to Angeles Shooting Range and ringing out the steel swingers at 35 and 60 yards. For me its a piece of cake with a handgun. For the rest of the people there, they have trouble doing it.
I forgot what the results were when I shot a CSAT target at 25 yards.
I'll try it at 50 and post it here.
decodeddiesel
03-14-11, 15:05
Hitting a 1 gallon milk jug at 50 yards is harder than many people think. I did it last weekend with my new P30 and was impressed with myself and the pistol (well the accuracy anyways...)
As a civilian training for home or self defense I would have a hard time convincing a judge that I was defending myself and didn't have the option to escape if I shot someone at 50 yards. Therefore why train at a range I will never likely use. That said once in a while I will try 50 yards just for fun or to diagnose a subtle zeroing problem.
We've has civilians in phoenix take shots at murders from those distances. I can think of a specific incident several years ago where some loser ambushed a phx pd cop, killing him.
A civilian was near by and fired several rounds at the killer... eventually wounding him. Not only could the civilian helped us all out by being able to shoot at long range, he decided to carry a spare mag from then on.
Never say never.. and never assume you know the script and setting for every lethal force encounter.
R3V3LATIONS
03-14-11, 15:59
Markm and magz bring up good points.
Okie, it may just be the mechanical accuracy of your glock or ammunition, probably a combination of both. I would start off with doing two 5round groups at 7yds slowfire indoors to test the handguns mechanical accuracy. Also I would see, if you are still using the glock for this distance, if could get your hands on a match barrel and look at different ammunition if you have not already. (that option has helped match shooting friends of mine but I have never done it)
50 yards is pushin it for a handgun IMHO, but I still infrequently practice at that distance for previously mentioned reasons. but at distances of 50+, you are testing both the capabilities of the firearm and the shooter. Good luck to you, and IHTH.
I tried it off the bags at 25 yards today and got a 9" group.
Not sure why nobody has said anything about it, but 9" at 25 yards off bags is way below what one would expect from Glocks. They should be able to print half that - which is what I typically get and I ain't a marksman.
Doubling the range would at least double the group, which is about what I've been getting.
While one would expect linear relationship of distance and accuracy, my experience it is not, and I even know why, but that's a long write-up.
I suggest ball and dummy drills for self-diagnosis, but I think you may need an external expertise to solve this.
abanks8245
03-14-11, 16:57
this is my groups at 15 and then at 25, i consider myself a decent shooter but my mistakes were amplified at 25 yards, i got to keep stressing to myself the FUNDEMENTALS always, always always. i tried to diagnose the issue and have been told everything from trigger placement , milking the grip, and others, will try to get more groups at 50 once i tighten my groups at 25
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk39/datruthab123/IMG00138-20110307-1245.jpg
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk39/datruthab123/25yardsthirdstring.jpg
I do it every time I can. Unfortunately, the two national forest ranges I know about in FL are a frigging hike. Shooting paper plates at 50 yards offhand with a pistol is fun. :)
Didn't the School Resource Officer at Columbine engage one of the shooters, at like 80 yards??
Up until about a year or so ago, my organization still had quals at 50 yards. I was sorry to see it go. 50 yards is where you separate the shooters for the qualified.
I will say this, many of the officers thought they needed work at the 50. That was rarely the case. Most couldn't shoot a one hole group at 3-5 yards. If you cant do that, there is little use in extending the range. If you can, and have issues further out, that's different. Things like your position, and sight picture, can give you issues. I found I shoot better, standing unsupported, then I do in any type of prone position, no idea why.
Also, resting the gun, can often cause problems. If done incorrectly, the gun recoils differently, bounces of the rest, or the rest moves.
LAV recommends zeroing offhand for this reason.
So, yea, the 50
Bob
I would start off with doing two 5round groups at 7yds slowfire indoors to test the handguns mechanical accuracy. Also I would see, if you are still using the glock for this distance, if could get your hands on a match barrel and look at different ammunition if you have not already. (that option has helped match shooting friends of mine but I have never done it)
5-shot 7-yard groups are one ragged hole with several types of ammo in 115-gr., 124-gr., and 147-gr. flavors. I’m leery of match barrels, as I’d rather use OEM parts for reliability and in case I end up in court.
Not sure why nobody has said anything about it, but 9" at 25 yards off bags is way below what one would expect from Glocks. They should be able to print half that...
Exactly. Minutes later, I shot several sub-1.5” groups with a K-22.
Didn't the School Resource Officer at Columbine engage one of the shooters, at like 80 yards??
I think so, and that’s not the only recent instance of someone shooting a pistol for blood at longer-than-usual distances. I’ve killed deer with iron-sighted handguns at surprisingly long range, so I know it’s possible.
I just want to know if it’s possible with a G19, and I’m beginning to have my doubts.
Okie John
I just want to know if it’s possible with a G19, and I’m beginning to have my doubts.
Most definitely. People are ringing 10 inch steel up to 75 yards on walkback drills all the time; that is, people who are good. Last walkback I shot in class was informal, and dudes went to 110, although the target was torso-size. You need to have somebody who is really good to confirm that your sample of Glock is good enough, and get back to a drawing board, so to speak.
An accuracy standard at 5-7 yards should not be a one ragged hole, it should be a one smooth hole.
Fairchild AFB, 1994, another instance where long range handgun shooting ended an active shooter incident.
http://www.fairchildhospitalshooting.com/
Shooting at distance will magnify any deficiencies in your fundamentals whereas shooting at 3 yards can very easily mask issues.
Absolutely true statement.
One holing 3-5 rounds at five to seven yards is isn't even close to shooting a sweet 2"-4" group at twenty-five yards.
One holing 3-5 rounds at five to seven yards is isn't even close to shooting a sweet 2"-4" group at twenty-five yards.
I disagree, Paul. Certainly, there are some additional difficulties that play in when one extends a distance. Many can shoot all rounds touching or ragged hole whatever than means, but if one is talking a true single hole, with maximal possible overlap of 5 rounds at 5-7 yards, then it is very challenging.
Especially if you're shooting 9 and not 45.
Quote:
As a civilian training for home or self defense I would have a hard time convincing a judge that I was defending myself and didn't have the option to escape if I shot someone at 50 yards.
Have you consulted with an attorney on this or is this mis-guided gun forum bullshit?
What about defending others? :)
Okie, 9" groups @ 25yds are IME definitely not the norm. Not knowing you or your abilities (nor disparaging either) I would suggest a mechanical rest or known shooter, a variety of ammo and more than one G-19. Good luck on the quest.
I shoot 3-200yds when able to get out.
Keith
RogerinTPA
03-14-11, 22:01
Absolutely. As often as i am able.
Shooting at distance with a handgun requires PERFECT fundamentals.
Sight alignment and trigger press must be done absolutely perfectly in order to hit your target.
Shooting at distance will magnify any deficiencies in your fundamentals whereas shooting at 3 yards can very easily mask issues.
Agreed.
I shoot on a 50 yard range all the time, with both pistol and carbine, for quite a few years now.
Agreed.
I shoot on a 50 yard range all the time, with both pistol and carbine, for quite a few years now.
Where? Manatee? Wyoming Antelope Club? Is there a 50 yard pistol range reasonably close?
I dunno? 10" center on a popper. This isn't my best outing as I missed a couple, but this isn't really slow aimed fire either and somewhat rapid given the distances. No excuses however. Glock Gen4 G17 25, 50 and 70 yards on a 10" circle. Glocks seem to be accurate enough for me.
I often go out to 100+ yards on 10" steel with many of my weapons. I will say that going out to distance is a good test, however I look at it no differently then shooting a very small target say 1" at 7 yards. Most people get mentally hung up on the distance issue. When in reality if you just thought of it as shooting a small target up close you would probably do better. Yes there are environmental factors, but the concept is sound. Aim small, miss small, no matter the distance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMdKfZJry18
Aim small, miss small, no matter the distance.
That is EXACTLY what I needed to see. What ammo, sights and trigger setup are you using?
Okie John
Magic_Salad0892
03-15-11, 04:59
I've gone to 75m.
I can usually put 12-15 shots out of 17 on an 8x8'' plate.
Once :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/ryusekai?feature=mhum
As a civilian training for home or self defense I would have a hard time convincing a judge that I was defending myself and didn't have the option to escape if I shot someone at 50 yards. Therefore why train at a range I will never likely use. That said once in a while I will try 50 yards just for fun or to diagnose a subtle zeroing problem.
It's a great training tool. Small marksmanship errors are greatly magnified at 100 yards. Breathing and follow through issues REALLY show up.
Eric Shelton
03-16-11, 02:22
I recently realized just how lousy I am with a shotgun when I shot my first 3 gun match. Luckily, I've put in enough pistol work that I was able to feel like I made up for it. Shooting while moving, a texas star, and even some very small targets further away than I would have thought I was capable of. I was dang proud of myself.
Why do I mention all that? Because one stage was all pistol, I'd been doing well and thought I was s*** hot, and I completely fell apart. I stood at the different barriers emptying magazine after magazine trying to ring each steel twice and I kid you not, my time would have been better if I would have just attempted each one and moved on. When taking the penalty for "did not neutralize" (as opposed to "did not engage") would yield a better score, it's pretty obvious that I blew it.
Yeah, that was just a game. But if I'm going to be responsible for the terminal resting location of each bullet I fire in the real world (and I'm far more likely to be playing by civilian rules than military in that instance), then I figured real quickly that I better take that as a clue. Absolutely no offense intended to "5 rounds in the exact same hole" thinking, but it strikes me as just a little too Robin-Hood-splitting-the-arrow, y'know?
I'm making shooting at 50 yards a regular thing. I'll even shoot at 100 from time-to-time. Glock 19 with standard trigger and 10-8 Performance sights, and yeah, I'll "cheat" and go prone. But learning bullet drop, and my own failure points has become all kinds of instructive to me. I fell into a mindset when I was a new shooter of doing everything at 7 yards, because that was the magically declared distance. I've since met Dennis Tueller, and you know what? He never said that was the only distance to be prepared for- that was all me and my search for training dogma. Branching out to new experiences and quests for expertise has been the best thing I've ever done, and 50-100 yard shooting is the newest and most exciting to me right now. It's challenging, and there are days I really stink at it. But when I get off that perfect trigger squeeze and do what so many others think is impossible? That's a reward you just can't buy without time invested, and that's what makes it so worth it.
I hope to God to never be in a situation like that in real life, but it's a heck of a tool in the tool box.
John_Wayne777
03-16-11, 07:25
I just want to know if it’s possible with a G19, and I’m beginning to have my doubts.
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww204/synergy303/LAV%203%20Day%20Pistol%20USTC%202010/IMG_0735.jpg
That's LAV shooting a Glock 17 (stock except for the red dot sight) at an estimated 135 yards. The target is that steel silhouette just to the right of the majority of the plates visible in the picture.
He hit the target. I hit it at that range with my P30, as did another student. After we took our turns the walkback drill was stopped because we were already back in the parking lot and it didn't seem prudent to go back any further. Other students took their chances at that distance, several of them using Glock 19's. Most managed to make a hit.
The previous day we were on the same range and I watched people shooting Glock 19 pistols hit the 6" steel plates from 100 yards once they figured out the dope on their sights and ammo.
A Glock 19 that doesn't have anything wrong with it will hit what you aim it at from 1 yard out to over 100 yards...if you can do what is required on the sights and the trigger. The key to accuracy at distance is, as many have already said, the fundamentals. You have to really understand how to use iron sights well and you have to be able to manipulate the trigger without disrupting the orientation of the sights.
I've shot a lot of handguns over the years and I've done a little bit of training with handguns over the years. I have yet to find a decent quality handgun that isn't capable of greater performance than I can wring out of it with my meager skills.
………..Why do I mention all that? Because one stage was all pistol, I'd been doing well and thought I was s*** hot, and I completely fell apart. I stood at the different barriers emptying magazine after magazine trying to ring each steel twice and I kid you not, my time would have been better if I would have just attempted each one and moved on. When taking the penalty for "did not neutralize" (as opposed to "did not engage") would yield a better score, it's pretty obvious that I blew it.
Yeah, that was just a game. But if I'm going to be responsible for the terminal resting location of each bullet I fire in the real world (and I'm far more likely to be playing by civilian rules than military in that instance), then I figured real quickly that I better take that as a clue. …………
My current focus on handgun proficiency, including the longer distance shooting, also stems from an epiphany experienced immediately after a stage. Par time with 5 required hits on 3 targets at progressively greater distance, with emergency reload between targets. Felt pretty good. Checked out the first target. :D Checked out the second target. :blink: Checked out the third target. :confused: Check out the third target again. :( One more time just to verify I do indeed suck. Yep, I suck. :mad:
John Hearne
03-16-11, 10:49
Fundamentals are fundamentals. Smaller targets or greater distances will reveal poor fundamentals that are often hidden. All modern service pistols have the ability to shoot well - probably better than 90% of their owners.
For instance, the FBI Firearms Instructor course requires that you pass a bullseye course that you must pass at 86.6%. The 9 and 10 rings are 5.25" inches. You need to keep the vast majority of your rounds in the 9 and 10 to pass. The course is shot with a duty pistol and people pass it all the time. If you take that ability to 50 yards, you should be able to hit a 10" target fairly regularly.
In another course, we shot at a mail box at 200 yards. Most shooters could hit it once they figured out their holdover. When you jerk a shot and see the round hit at 50 yards, you know you have a fundamentals problem.
If you're not practicing some form of precision shooting, you're missing part of the equation.
DDgunslinger
03-16-11, 10:58
On a normal day of training I engage most of my targets from 5-25meters. I practice my draw, reflexive fire, target acquisition, and etc. I spend majority of my time focusing on my fundamentals while preforming the above drills. Then at the end of the day, if I have time I will put a target out at 50 meters and expend a few mags. So to answers the OP's question yes I train at 50m, however it is not my primary focus.
CarbonCycles
03-16-11, 11:10
Not as often as I'd like to but mainly to work on slow-fire, fundamentals. As others stated above, shooting a handgun as distance requires very sound fundamentals.
GLOCKMASTER
03-16-11, 18:08
I just want to know if it’s possible with a G19, and I’m beginning to have my doubts.
Okie John
It can easily be done at 50 yards and even further. Last year I was in a walk back contest with a gun rag writer. I was the last one standing, he says at 150 yards, but of course I remember it being a little further than that. His article with that contest being mentioned was recently published in a major publication. Just last week I was hitting steel with a G23 at 100 yards so much it was almost boring.
It can easily be done at 50 yards and even further. Last year I was in a walk back contest with a gun rag writer. I was the last one standing, he says at 150 yards, but of course I remember it being a little further than that. His article with that contest being mentioned was recently published in a major publication. Just last week I was hitting steel with a G23 at 100 yards so much it was almost boring.
DAG GUM!!!! Love it!!!
OK guys i'm convinced. I'll spend more time shooting at 50 yards. You are right that subtle errors in fundamentals will show up dramatically at long range.
sixgun-symphony
03-16-11, 22:03
I do when I visit the Renton Fish & Game Club back hom.
Six Feet Under
03-17-11, 00:09
I did it a few range trips ago with paper plates stapled to the target stands. Draw, fire one shot and try to make first-round hits.
Most of the time it works.
I do when I visit the Renton Fish & Game Club back hom.
That's where I shoot.
Okie John
We have had officers shoot both fifty and 100 yards with their handguns. With instructor classes we will demonstrate shooting out to 200 yards with service handguns.
Magic_Salad0892
03-17-11, 02:26
demonstrate shooting out to 200 yards with service handguns.
.... What caliber?
9x19mm? I know .45ACP can do it, but doesn't 9x19mm Para not have sufficient ballistic coefficient to combat wind drift to that range?
(Granted, if I were to emulate this I would use meters (m) instead of yards (yds).
Its pretty rare that I shoot out to 50 yards. Honestly I should probably do it a hell of a lot more then I do. Problem is that the ranges I go to the most only go out to 25 yards. I shoot at 25 almost every time I'm at the range.
80% of my shooting is at 50 with 10% closer and 10% at 100. When you gain controll of your pistol enough to hit targets consistantly at these longer distances, you will see just how fast you punch the X out of a target at say 7 to 10 yds.
NavyDavy55
03-19-11, 18:16
I went to the range today and shot 15 rounds from 50 feet.
No target to show, but they were all good hits.
Next time I'll take a picture.
transition2secondary
03-27-11, 09:29
With the understanding that different loads and different sights will change the equation, and everyone will have personal DOPE, my general question is this:
When shooting at 25 and then out to 50 yards, what is the approximate holdover you guys have found to be effective for making these shots with good groupings (assuming trigger control and sight alignment are good - running iron sights)?
For the record, I'm running a stock Gen4 Glock 17, set up with a front sight that is a .140" wide front blade and a .180 rear notch (Ameriglo, Hack style).
With 9 mm and assuming that pistol is zeroed at 25, I don't hold over at all at 50.
With 9 mm and assuming that pistol is zeroed at 25, I don't hold over at all at 50.
Ditto, 9mm shoots rather flat.
Even at the 100 a shoulder level hold drops them into the upper torso area nicely.
Robb Jensen
03-27-11, 10:14
I shoot at 50yds everytime I'm shooting rifles at the range. If I'm shooting outdoors I also am shooting at 100yds and 200yds. If you think your 50yd zero is good fine tune it at 200yds and you'll be really GTG at 50yds.
I shoot at 50yds everytime I'm shooting rifles at the range. If I'm shooting outdoors I also am shooting at 100yds and 200yds. If you think your 50yd zero is good fine tune it at 200yds and you'll be really GTG at 50yds.
Pistol Robb, not rifle. :sarcastic:
NC Buckeye
03-27-11, 10:42
With the understanding that different loads and different sights will change the equation, and everyone will have personal DOPE, my general question is this:
When shooting at 25 and then out to 50 yards, what is the approximate holdover you guys have found to be effective for making these shots with good groupings (assuming trigger control and sight alignment are good - running iron sights)?
For the record, I'm running a stock Gen4 Glock 17, set up with a front sight that is a .140" wide front blade and a .180 rear notch (Ameriglo, Hack style).
You would still have hold under at 50yds. The amount is inside my wobble zone though. If you called it 2" high you wouldn't be off by much.
Robb Jensen
03-27-11, 11:14
Pistol Robb, not rifle. :sarcastic:
Doh, every once in a while I shoot pistol at 200yds too, definately shoot at 50yds with pistol.
As mentioned my G17, no hold over at 25y and 50y.
I shoot out to 220yards often enough. I have a plate at 220yards that I use to confirm my rifles 50yard zero. I shoot pistol at that plate quite often.
I shoot at both 50 and 100 yrds with my M&P 357sig. One nice thing about the round is that it excels at longer shots.
It is not a regular practice of mine, but I have done it before on my own and in a few pistol classes. It really stresses the fundamentals in order to make good hits at longer distances like that.
Match this . . . with a stock gun!
http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45#p/u/25/zFd3kF6LHz4
and
http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45#p/u/57/n1xj_3RvP2E
The range I go to only goes out to 25 yards. So far, I haven't tried to rea ch out all the way, but I did try 20 the last time. I'm a craptastic shot with a pistol at range, so I have a few things to work on.
Combat_Diver
04-15-11, 05:57
50 and 100 yds with a handgun whenever I can.
CD
CD...What kinda handguns are you shooting out to 100yds with, and what generally are good reference groups when doing that type of LR handgun shooting?
You inspired me to try and humiliate myself next time out to the range. I will shoot the most accurate handgun I own which is a usp40c.
On a side note I watched a pal stone a yote @ about 65yds using my P2000SK in .357sig....He had the .357sig's extra inherit accuracy perhaps over most common handgun calibers working for him, and he is indeed a crack shot on a pistol which I'm very far from. He impressed the hell outta me with that little trick.
eta...I do see from time to time guys hitting some pretty targets @ 100yds w. wheel guns.
Combat_Diver
04-16-11, 02:48
Trident82,
I used to shoot my M9 at 100yds several times a week. I was the range NCOIC for CJSOTF-AP and had a 485yd KD range. Still didn't figure our the hold over for 300yds.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/9809Combat_Diver-114.JPG
When home used to shoot 100m with my .357 Coonan or Smith N frames in .41/.44. This is all off hand shooting too. My target is COM on a E type silohuete.
CD
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/9809Combat_Diver-114.JPG
I got to shoot my M-9 at longer ranges ONE time when I was on active duty, but it worked like a charm. Good sights, crisp trigger, and being too heavy to kick very hard made it good for the task.
On 100m targets, I held high in the chest. For farther ones, I used the Elmer Keith method of holding up extra front sight.
Okie John
Magic_Salad0892
04-17-11, 04:56
I'm still trying to work out a method for shooting at 200m with a Glock 19. Eventually I want to be able to make 300m shots.
But it's kind of lower on my to do list. :|
I've shot my G22 out to 110yds, and my G27 out to 100yds against a torso silhouette.
Both with department mandated NY1 triggers.:mad:
Excellent exercise for sight alignment and trigger control. Makes qualifying out to 25 yards seem much more tame.
As a civilian training for home or self defense I would have a hard time convincing a judge that I was defending myself and didn't have the option to escape if I shot someone at 50 yards. Therefore why train at a range I will never likely use. That said once in a while I will try 50 yards just for fun or to diagnose a subtle zeroing problem.
If it is a justified shooting, it is a justified shooting.
The reason why you shoot at 50yds or farther (I shoot at 100yds often) is because it emphasizes the fundamentals. So if you can perform well at 50yds, you will be fantastic at more common gun fighting distances.
Change subjects for a minute, many people only practice moving and shooting at about 10yds and in. I have started doing moving and shooting drills at 15-20yds. Why? Because it is MUCH harder and if I can do it at those distances (well), then I will be much better (read faster and more accurate) at closer distances.
Remember to plan for the worst and hope for the best.
C4
Change subjects for a minute, many people only practice moving and shooting at about 10yds and in. I have started doing moving and shooting drills at 15-20yds. Why? Because it is MUCH harder and if I can do it at those distances (well), then I will be much better (read faster and more accurate) at closer distances.
Remember to plan for the worst and hope for the best.
C4I agree and have preached this in a couple of threads, especially the SOTM thread. I personally progress my training to exaggerated distances / speeds that are outside of what might be considered practical engagement ranges / speeds. By doing so, this keeps me pushing my own skills and pushing me outside of my comfort zone. When you can perform the skill with a certain set amount of accuracy (I chose around 90%) then it is time to either start pushing the speed, or pushing the distances or both. When you finally get up to practical or distances that are more of the norm in gunfights, things are gravy.
Sounds crazy to many but I do a lot of moving and shooting drills with a pistol pushing out to 40-50 yards on a regular basis using standard sized 10" center poppers. I also incorporate the mindset that the distances are not further out, just that the targets are smaller in hit zone size. Kinda like shooting ping pong ball sized targets on the move from 10 yards. Much of shooting is a mental game. Get over the mental blocks and things get much easier.
condition 1
04-17-11, 18:10
Shooting tin cans at 50 yards is a lot of fun, its not easy, it takes a few shots to walk it in, people look at you kinda funny when you tell them, 9mm or 22LR is what I use...
I need to shoot at distance far more often than I do. Practicing at longer distances reinforces confidence that you can 'stay in the fight' with a pistol at distances others might consider rifle territory. If your long arm is disabled, it is good to know that your pistol can still deliver effective fire at longer ranges.
I do fairly often. Anyone else train at this distance regularly?
Okie John
Not as often as I should. As stated numerous times, when shooting at 25 yards or more, you have to concentrate on the basics.
Elsewhere in the thread:
As for whether the Glock 19 can do it - it can.
9mm point blank is about 100 yards IIRC, so don't worry about hold over until that point.
Not as often as I should. As stated numerous times, when shooting at 25 yards or more, you have to concentrate on the basics.
Elsewhere in the thread:
As for whether the Glock 19 can do it - it can.
9mm point blank is about 100 yards IIRC, so don't worry about hold over until that point.
I haven't tried my G19 at 100 yards, I'll have to bring it next time I go out that far.
What I can tell you is a 173 gr. Keith bullet in front of 12.5 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case in my 5" 27-2 is a frigging laser beam. Hold over? What's that. :D
John Hearne
04-20-11, 22:13
If it is a justified shooting, it is a justified shooting.
I'm familiar with a shooting in a large southern city, last year that occurred at 74-76 yards. The officer pulled up at the end of a long apartment building for a home invasion call. 3 bad guys were fleeing and engaged the officer as they fled. The officer cranked off 2 quick shots then settled down and head shot one of the suspects. For the curious, the background was a wooded lot.
9mm point blank is about 100 yards IIRC, so don't worry about hold over until that point.
Agreed. The 22 LR and the 9mm have remarkably flat trajectories.
Okie John
threeheadeddog
04-21-11, 15:49
I used to(meaning before last winter, I have not had much chance to shoot from winter until now) shoot the plate rack at 35ish yards after almost every match. I could clean it with my p229 but am still getting there with my M&P9L. I wish I could shoot 50yds more often but then I would have to pay for more range visits(different range than where I have matches).
I have however printed quite impressive groups with the M&P .45 I used to have at 50yrds.
Interesting thread. I shoot at 25-50 yds regularily. Not very well, but am improving :p Mostly Makarov and Tokarev. The cheap Tok ammo lets me play around a bit more with distance but with the nice ammo in some buddies' guns and my CZ82 sees a little closer range.
"The 22 LR and the 9mm have remarkably flat trajectories."
- Yea, it's not from a handgun but my .22lr gets shot at 50 yds and 100 as well. I agree, the .22lr shoots flat and then kinda arcs before it goes down (in my experience). I've shot it pretty far too but you gotta aim high. The 9X19 seems to arc down a tad to me but that's shooting at 25+yds.
Yep, should do more of it.
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