View Full Version : ?????Chrome lined barrels are less accurate?????
OneInchPunch
03-14-11, 22:14
i saw this on glock talk, yea i know, while i was searching for info on the new MP15 Sport...is it true or is it shit?
OneInchPunch
03-14-11, 22:16
this was the guys actual post:
"Chrome lined barrels are less accurate, AEBE."
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They are much more accurate than Play-Doh barrels.
...less accurate than what??
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I believe that is actually true but it's not a huge diference.
Against a stainless barrel that is
I guess my question is this. Why is accuracy so absolutely important? I want to hit what I am shooting at, but do you really need a 1" group?
Yesterday, we shot a little video of me in the prone unsupported shooting a 10x14 steel plate at 150 yards using 55gr. steel TAP with ACOG topped 11.5" SBR.
I hit the plate 20 times out of thirty. Was that spectacular? Nope. I missed because I was getting some fatigue, hot, etc....
But, I was still able to hit a plate smaller than a human torso. I think on the next outing I will take my time, relax and put all 30 on the steel.
from a guy who comes from a benchrest background, i'm really impressed with the chrome lined ar's I've played with...most of my experience is with the daniel defense chf but 1-2 moa depending on optics & ammo has been the rule on my very limited tests.
anyone wanna hold their thumb-nail up at 100yds and gamble on the impact??
accuracy is subjective...especially on this site.
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Some say AR's are not accurate in general compared to bolt guns, but I had a 24" les baer heavy varmint I would put up against any factory turn bolt. Sold it cuz it was a boat anchor and a 220 swift vssf is better for that job.
Jake Bauer
03-14-11, 23:11
I think its BS. There's no Credible evidence that I've seen.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-14-11, 23:20
I guess my question is this. Why is accuracy so absolutely important? I want to hit what I am shooting at, but do you really need a 1" group?
Yesterday, we shot a little video of me in the prone unsupported shooting a 10x14 steel plate at 150 yards using 55gr. steel TAP with ACOG topped 11.5" SBR.
I hit the plate 20 times out of thirty. Was that spectacular? Nope. I missed because I was getting some fatigue, hot, etc....
But, I was still able to hit a plate smaller than a human torso. I think on the next outing I will take my time, relax and put all 30 on the steel.
Finally, someone says it. Accuracy is hitting your target, pinpoint accuracy is another thing. My chrome lined barrel will shoot just as well as my stainless barrel in a combat situation. Im not a 1 MOA shooter. I use irons and aimpoints. I want to hit my man/coyote/rabbit sized target everytime, wether or not the rounds go through the same hole matters not to me.
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I think it is pretty much common knowledge that for a precision match barrel - don't get CL'd.
But I also think it is common knowledge that for a rustproof bore, toughness, ease of cleaning, heat resistance, etc. get a CL 4150 CM (or better) barrel.
When I shoot for groups with my AR, I shoot 10-shots and generally in less than 1 minute and quite often get <1.5" groups. Do that with my very accurate 3-shot 1/2" group deer rifle and the barrel would probably sag or the groups would probably be in the 6" size.
I consider my CL'd barrels accurate enough. I tell my "deer hunting accuracy" buddies this, "How accurate do I need to be, if I miss the first shot, that target has got 29 more bullets coming at it!" :) So, on a bad day, I can do at 200-yards, what #4 buckshot does at 30-yards.
But maybe it's just me...
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I just re-zeroed my 6920 on sunday after mounting a new Aimpoint M4s. I zeroed it at 50, checked it at 100 and 200, ammo was Win. Q3131A. I was slightly impressed with the 50yd group, not very impressed with my 100yd group but was astounded with my 200yd group. At 200yd it put 14 out of 15 rounds inside a six inch target circle. To echo 'Gunz, how much accuracy in enough. If working up a precision rifle I would probably lean toward a SS barrel, but on a working carbine I would venture to say that a chrome lined barrel is more than accurate enough. More accurate than most of us I would say. On a working gun I will take the reliability and durability of a chrome lined barrel every time.
All things being equal a stainless barrel would be more accurate than a chrome lined.
But, it is more indian than arrow.
DirectDrive
03-15-11, 00:28
All things being equal a stainless barrel would be more accurate than a chrome lined.
But, it is more indian than arrow.
This pretty well sums it all up. :D
Yes, stainless barrels are more accurate than chrome lined units.
However, you'll never notice the difference unless you put a 4 or better power optic on your carbine/rifle and shoot at ranges longer than 200 yards. If you plan on putting a red dot on top of the carbine go with chrome lined barrels (IMHO)
At 500 yards a 1 moa carbine with 1 moa ammo and a 1 moa shooter will produce about a 5" group. A 1.5 moa carbine with 1 moa ammo and a 1 moa shooter will produce about group 7.5".
GermanSynergy
03-15-11, 06:55
For their intended use (military, LE, defensive), chrome lined barrels are 99.9999% of the time more accurate than the trigger puller.
GT is a haven for assclowns & people who don't train. Take everything posted on there with a shaker of salt.
I think its BS. There's no Credible evidence that I've seen.
Really?? How about empirical evidence of thousands of shooters and decades of use. I'm really impressed with my latest build using a chrome lined Centurion barrrel, but it's not as accurate as my SS Noveske and pales in comparison to my 20" Krieger. My experiences seem to mirror most of the shooting world.
memphisjim
03-15-11, 07:09
Some what on topic. I was reading a website of one of the top ar makers (lmt bmc or Ed. Can't remember which). And they were advertiseing that their hard chrome was twice as thick as colts
What kinnA difference does this make?
Belmont31R
03-15-11, 07:13
Some what on topic. I was reading a website of one of the top ar makers (lmt bmc or Ed. Can't remember which). And they were advertiseing that their hard chrome was twice as thick as colts
What kinnA difference does this make?
It mean you have a few microns more chrome before you burn into the throat.
BCM 16", chrome lined, 1/7 twist, with Remington 55 grain FMJ Wal Mart specials, at 25 yards, with irons. Ten rounds. Add to that the fact that I'm a notoriously lousy shot:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g169/ncc1984/IMG00505.jpg
IMHO, plenty accurate enough.
No question SS is more accurate. You only have to look at what competition shooters are using - if C/L was better or the exact same as a SS barrel...then that is what they'd use.
That is not to say C/L are inaccurate, and for general usage are absolutely fine - however when it comes right down to it a SS match grade barrel will one up a batch grade barrel every time.
I have recently gotten a Lilja SS barrel for my 3 gun rifle - absolutely no question about it, it is inherently more accurate than my regular govt profile barrel. It is not like I'm shooting for groups either - but everything you can do to take any inaccuracy out of the equation is worth it for use in a competition environment. Close range - makes no odds. But when you are shooting plates at 2-3-400 yards, it does matter. If hits on mansize targets is your aim, along with extended barrel life being your priority - not so much.
End of the day, whether it matters or not all depends on what you want it for - but nonetheless, there is some truth to the statement.
A 10 MOA shooter using 4 MOA ammo worrying about 1/2 MOA differences between barrels is non-productive.
Firing five-shot groups (yea, yea) I recorded ~1.5 MOA with a Spike's Tactical 16" M4 barrel and slightly better in a 16" BCM mid-length barrel both with 75 grain Black Hills ammo. I'm quite certain a better shooter with a stainless barrel, or even non-chrome-lined carbon steel barrel, could produce better groups. Group sizes with XM193 and various steel-cased ammo were double the size, and I doubt that the use of a "better" barrel would have done much for them.
A 10 MOA shooter using 4 MOA ammo worrying about 1/2 MOA differences between barrels is non-productive.
The other thing is though (and it drifts away from the topic of the thread a little) is the high end barrels tend to be more consistent as they heat up. Standard barrels will be more apt to suffer shifting POI under a high volume of fire. Consistency is also a big part of accuracy - certainly in my case it is more important to me than splitting hairs over MOA differences. It is a point often overlooked.
lifebreath
03-15-11, 10:17
My understanding is that chrome plating of the chamber and bore originated to make the barrels resistant to corrosion and help eliminate stuck cartridges in field & battle conditions for safety reasons. The very minor degradation in accuracy in combat would be inconsequential.
Here's an interesting insight on the matter from Heckler & Koch on their new MR556A1:
"Like the HK416, the MR556A1 uses a barrel produced by Heckler & Koch’s famous cold hammer forging process. But in a major departure from its HK416 lineage, the 16.5-inch MR556A1 barrel is not chrome-lined. By using the highest quality steel in the barrel manufacturing process, a long service life barrel that provides superior accuracy can be produced without chroming. According to HK engineers, chrome lining may add to barrel life but it does not contribute significantly to accuracy and can temporarily conceal defects in the barrel profile."
This is the rhetoric that RRA used when pimping their non-chrome-lined AR's. There is a link missing here, though, folks. What everyone does is compare a chrome-lined, non-match barrel to a match grade stainless barrel. Of course the stainless barrel is more accurate, but I suspect it has more to do with the conditions/tolerances under which it is produced, than the material (though the material may have some effect on repeatability.) The conclusion many try to draw from this is that chrome-lining is detrimental to accuracy, so, an un-chrome-lined chromoly barrel will be more accurate than a chrome-lined one. I have never seen any evidence to support this (all other manufacturing conditions held constant). Furthermore, it's not worth the tradeoff in reduced life/durability.
This is the rhetoric that RRA used when pimping their non-chrome-lined AR's. There is a link missing here, though, folks. What everyone does is compare a chrome-lined, non-match barrel to a match grade stainless barrel. Of course the stainless barrel is more accurate, but I suspect it has more to do with the conditions/tolerances under which it is produced, than the material (though the material may have some effect on repeatability.) The conclusion many try to draw from this is that chrome-lining is detrimental to accuracy, so, an un-chrome-lined chromoly barrel will be more accurate than a chrome-lined one. I have never seen any evidence to support this (all other manufacturing conditions held constant). Furthermore, it's not worth the tradeoff in reduced life/durability.
Ash that is a very good point and you are absolutely right; it is not usually an apples to apples comparison that is made - there's definitely much more to a barrel than "chrome lined or not". However it still does hold that the chrome lining is *slightly* detrimental to accuracy - if it wasn't, the high power crowd et al would use it to get more mileage out of their barrels. The info is out there as to why this is so.
But back to your point - I do believe that a super high end "match" type barrel with chrome lining would also outperform a run of the mill SS barrel due to the other factors you mentioned.
The simple answer is yes. The bigger question is what are you going to do with the gun and will that difference effect your goal?
I have some with chrome linings and some without. Chrome lining means more to me when firing full auto. I live in the dry desert, so I am not worried about rust. If I lived in an area with high humidity then chrome lined bores and chambers may be more important to me. My two "precision" ARs have stainless steel Lothar Walther barrels.
Not definitive by any means, but a test nonetheless. I was having this very discussion with a Marine 2112 armorer in the Quantico RTE shop one day, many years ago. He agreed to test one of the rifle teams M14 barrels, if I could get the plating done. I contacted a company that did such work, and arranged to have one barrel plated. The armorer then removed the barrel from one of the team's rifles, a rifle that had been tested very thoroughly in the test shed, and for which they had much data.
To make this short, when the rifle was re-assembled with the plated barrel and then run through the same tests again, it was shown to be even more accurate than it was in the beginning. Now, this was a chrome-moly, match-grade barrel, which surely had a great deal to do with the results, but the armorer was still surprised. As far as I know, that is the only M14 the Corps ever had with a chrome-lined, match barrel, and I can tell you this. The team member who was issued that rifle wouldn't give it up.
Not definitive by any means, but a test nonetheless. I was having this very discussion with a Marine 2112 armorer in the Quantico RTE shop one day, many years ago. He agreed to test one of the rifle teams M14 barrels, if I could get the plating done. I contacted a company that did such work, and arranged to have one barrel plated. The armorer then removed the barrel from one of the team's rifles, a rifle that had been tested very thoroughly in the test shed, and for which they had much data.
To make this short, when the rifle was re-assembled with the plated barrel and then run through the same tests again, it was shown to be even more accurate than it was in the beginning. Now, this was a chrome-moly, match-grade barrel, which surely had a great deal to do with the results, but the armorer was still surprised. As far as I know, that is the only M14 the Corps ever had with a chrome-lined, match barrel, and I can tell you this. The team member who was issued that rifle wouldn't give it up.
Wait, you had an existing barrel chrome lined after the fact? and there weren't any signs of overpressure? What thickness was the chrome lining applied? Didn't this reduce the bore size by twice that thickness?
Beat Trash
03-15-11, 17:34
A 10 MOA shooter using 4 MOA ammo worrying about 1/2 MOA differences between barrels is non-productive.
Yes, but how many of us know a 10 MOA shooter who thinks his problem is a hardware issue not a software issue? The reason I can't shoot for shit has to be the gun!
But then these are the same nimrods who will spend a ton of money to get a 1MOA gun and feed it imported wolf ammo because of the cost of decent ammo?
Wait, you had an existing barrel chrome lined after the fact? and there weren't any signs of overpressure? What thickness was the chrome lining applied? Didn't this reduce the bore size by twice that thickness?
When I spoke with the company doing the bore, they said they had the capability of removing material from the bore to compensate for the thickness of the plating. The barrel was not air-gauged before and after, so I don't have an answer for your question of thickness. Signs of over-pressure? Don't really know, since I was not allowed to attend the testing. Didn't set off any alarms for the armorer or the people in the test shed, though, and RTE people are really thorough. This all happened almost twenty years ago, so a lot of the details have been lost to time. All I know is that it worked.
As far as over-pressure goes, the same armorer talked the Corps into letting him take one of their match M14s to H.P. White Labs, to see what it would take to blow up an M14. At first, they used various rifle powders, and couldn't jam enough into a case to cause any damage. This didn't satisfy anybody, so they started using pistol powders. From what I remember, it finally took around 120,000 psi before the gun went kaboom. This was not done for fun - they actually needed to know how much an M14 could take before grenading. Competition was pretty stiff.
This all came about because of the G2 and G3 loadings the armorers were using for long range, and they started to wonder about how much the rifles could really take. Couldn't have one blow up on the 1,000 yard line at Perry. How embarrassing!! Turned out that their "custom" loads were nowhere near dangerous.
Ever hear about the two M14s that were built at Quantico to use Remington 30BR brass(didn't think so). The brass is no longer available, but it was extremely light, large powder capacity, and used small rifle primers. The armorer who did this designed his own custom reamer, and built two 14s using it. Those rifles would not accept M852 or Fed GMM, 'cause the chambers were too small. The final loading for the rifles, which were used solely for 1,000 yard matches, consisted of the old Sierra 180 gr Matchking, a CCI BR primer, and 44.5 gr. of IMR 4064 powder(pretty hot). It worked well enough to win the 1,000 yard Service Rifle matches at Perry the year they were built. There was some really fun stuff going on with 14s in those days.
In addition, do you have any idea how many different sizes .308 barrels can really be? My Obermeyer Palma barrel has a bore and groove of .298 and .3065, respectively. A normal .30 cal match barrel would not be that small, even after plating. That hard chrome is really thin. Nobody was in any danger.
Finally, someone says it. Accuracy is hitting your target, pinpoint accuracy is another thing. My chrome lined barrel will shoot just as well as my stainless barrel in a combat situation. Im not a 1 MOA shooter. I use irons and aimpoints. I want to hit my man/coyote/rabbit sized target everytime, wether or not the rounds go through the same hole matters not to me.
I'd rather them not go through the same hole either in a self defense situation, but hey, that's just me.
Heavy Metal
03-15-11, 21:19
My understanding is that chrome plating of the chamber and bore originated to make the barrels resistant to corrosion and help eliminate stuck cartridges in field & battle conditions for safety reasons. The very minor degradation in accuracy in combat would be inconsequential.
Here's an interesting insight on the matter from Heckler & Koch on their new MR556A1:
"Like the HK416, the MR556A1 uses a barrel produced by Heckler & Koch’s famous cold hammer forging process. But in a major departure from its HK416 lineage, the 16.5-inch MR556A1 barrel is not chrome-lined. By using the highest quality steel in the barrel manufacturing process, a long service life barrel that provides superior accuracy can be produced without chroming. According to HK engineers, chrome lining may add to barrel life but it does not contribute significantly to accuracy and can temporarily conceal defects in the barrel profile."
My understanding is H&K are Nitriding their barrels anyways.
OneInchPunch
03-15-11, 23:05
the way that the thread was stating it was that the melonite coated barrels that S&W are making are somehow better than mil spec barrels of other companies. it was just kind of funny to me. any AR that cost 600 dollars has to be a giant piece of shit...:suicide:...just thought i'd share the latest development in mall ninja tech :haha:
To answer the first post...
I think barrel quality is more important to accuracy than chrome lined vs non chrome lined. For example, I would bet that a noveske chrome lined barrel is far more accurate than an olympic arms stainless.
Secondly, FN makes some pretty darn accurate bolt action rifles that are chrome lined. If this chrome lining screwed up accuracy they wouldn't be able to sell any, and wouldn't have made it standard. The *quality* of the chrome lining has a major role to play in accuracy.
Third, if your rifle's purpose is for self defense, then you are kidding yourself if you think you will be better off with a barrel that is maybe 1/4 to 1/2 moa more accurate. Will you have time to set up your sandbags and squeeze off that perfect shot in a self defense situation? Or would you rather have the better durability and reliability of a CL barrel?
Fourth, ask yourself if you are really gonna shoot $1 per round match ammo or carefully crafted handloads through this AR anyways. If you are shooting cheap ammo like the rest of us, you won't notice the minuscule accuracy "degradation" that a CL barrel may or may not have.
On the flip side, I would say chrome barrels can be more accurate than people give them credit for, and stainless barrels can be more durable than people give them credit for.
Secondly, FN makes some pretty darn accurate bolt action rifles that are chrome lined. If this chrome lining screwed up accuracy they wouldn't be able to sell any, and wouldn't have made it standard. The *quality* of the chrome lining has a major role to play in accuracy.
Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't call one barrel process superior to another. There are fans that will fight to the death of cut, button and CHF barrels. Its not the one singular process that makes a barrel great, but how the manufacturer incorporates all of these things into their product.
My understanding is H&K are Nitriding their barrels anyways.
I'm starting to see more and more of this. Hopefully it becomes more mainstream.
justin_247
03-16-11, 03:24
.I think it is pretty much common knowledge that for a precision match barrel - don't get CL'd.
From what I've read, very few matches even take advantage of the SS barrels (ie, shooting out past 300-400 yards). I doubt that most shooters are going to be able to take advantage of the benefits of an SS barrel the way that match shooters do - I know I don't have that level of ability.
Wait, you had an existing barrel chrome lined after the fact? and there weren't any signs of overpressure? What thickness was the chrome lining applied? Didn't this reduce the bore size by twice that thickness?
P.O. Ackley did tests to see if oversized bullets caused raised pressures. He fired 32 caliber (8mm) bullets through a 30 caliber bore. He found that if he opened up the neck & throat of the chamber, he could fire .323" bullets safely through a .308" bore. The bullets were simply swagged to 30 caliber. What raised pressures to dangerous levels was jamming the .323" bullets into a chamber with a neck sized for .308" bullets. This causes pressure spikes, same as seating a bullet out too far or using a too short leade where the bullet is jammed into the rifling when the cartridge is chambered
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