View Full Version : Re-creation of CCW Incident
Here is a re-creation of the CCW class incident that resulted in a student death in MO. Rather than discussion of why they were doing this, take this as a sobering reminder of the issue of gun safety and the 4 laws of safe firearm handling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7AMMF7WaB8
Original thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=76125
(I don't have enough posts to reply there).
Thanks for posting this, I was wondering what the exact drill was. Now I know.
That is pretty much the stupidest support hand draw I have ever seen. It's only positive is that it would be easy for fat people to use. That doesn't outweigh the minuses, though. Then when you add the trigger finger safety manipulation you have the perfect storm of bad technique and bad muzzle awareness.
Gringop
Thanks for posting this. Im shocked that was the drill being taught. What an avoidable accident.
Why the hell would any instructor think its OK to teach that level of drill at a basic CCW class?
That is just beyond irresponsible.
Off hand draw is in fact taught by many instructors and is something everyone needs to know how to do. The way it was shown in the video though, would not be the way I would do it or teach it (especially to new shooters)!
There are 4 main ways to get the gun out of the holster with your off hand. I will cover the safest to most dangerous.
First way: Draw weapon with off hand and rotate it so that the grip is now facing out. Insert the HG back into the holster and acquire your normal shooting grip. NOTE: This technique also works for mag changes as well.
Second way: Draw weapon with off hand from BEHIND your back. Acquire your shooting grip (if need be) once the weapon is at your side.
Third way: Draw weapon with off hand and position the gun between your legs. Acquire your shooting grip. NOTE: This technique also works for mag changes as well.
Fourth way: Draw weapon with off hand (with muzzle pointing down). Rotate the weapon on your chest until the grip is in the correct shooting position.
As you can see from the above ways to do this, that the fourth way is by far the most dangerous and has the highest probability of dropping the weapon. Why the student attempted to disengage the safety with his trigger finger is also strange. All he had to do is roll his left thumb over and push down.
I was wondering why the instructor would teach noobs the most dangerous way to draw with ones off hand, but my guess is because he didn't know how to do any of the other methods listed. :rolleyes:
C4
Not trying to say anything negative about anyone, but couldn't the incident have been avoided if he did not attempt to hold the weapon against his body, and instead pointed it down range to remove the safety? If he was standing next to other students at the range while he did this, even without the accidental fire he would have been pointing at someone with the safety off. Or, at least that is how I see it according to the "recreation" video.
Grant, i dont disagree that anyone serious about learning to use a pistol in a defensive capacity should at least KNOW how to work that technique but you know as well as i do that most people applying for their CCW permits dont know the pistol grip from the barrel...
Hell, three years ago i was one of those people.
PS, the way in which the video demonstrates the draw is also far more dangerous than the way i was taught. Doing that type of weak hand draw is quite a bit safer with the muzzle in the depressed position and rolling it across the stomach. Granted, you're still liable to blow your dick off but at least you wont shoot the person next to you...
Argghh...this type of situation is upsetting.
Grant, i dont disagree that anyone serious about learning to use a pistol in a defensive capacity should at least KNOW how to work that technique but you know as well as i do that most people applying for their CCW permits dont know the pistol grip from the barrel...
Hell, three years ago i was one of those people.
Agree. I would not be teaching this at a CCW class. In fact, I have NEVER taught off hand draw to anyone. While it is something people need to know, there are FAR more important things to learn FIRST.
C4
Well said, 100% on the money.
Fundamentals are called fundamentals for a reason. :)
John_Wayne777
03-15-11, 12:22
Thanks for posting this, I was wondering what the exact drill was. Now I know.
That is pretty much the stupidest support hand draw I have ever seen. It's only positive is that it would be easy for fat people to use. That doesn't outweigh the minuses, though. Then when you add the trigger finger safety manipulation you have the perfect storm of bad technique and bad muzzle awareness.
Gringop
The trigger finger manipulation of the safety isn't problematic...it's the timing of it. You don't disengage the safety or touch the trigger while the weapon is on/pointed at your chest. You do that when the weapon is indexed on the target.
When it comes to something like a WHO draw an presentation the finer points of how it is done are critical. Getting people to slow down and observe them is sometimes difficult.
If one wishes to teach that in a beginner class, it should be done with blue guns or with dummy rounds after everyone has cleared out all live ammo.
EDIT - and no, I wouldn't teach that in a beginner's class.
I was wondering why the instructor would teach noobs the most dangerous way to draw with ones off hand, but my guess is because he didn't know how to do any of the other methods listed. :rolleyes:
Instructors who stop their development often end up holding dogmatically to sub-optimal practices. If this was taught as a technique I'd wager that the guy teaching it would have argued that he never saw a problem with it before, so why worry? Frankly there's a LOT of that going around among people who label themselves "instructors". The fact that they taught it in the police academy 25 years ago doesn't mean that it's such a good practice with different weapons and different people.
Magic_Salad0892
03-15-11, 12:54
This is the exact reason that the 4 O'clock position (As I weigh about 190 lbs, this would be RIGHT behind the right side of my back - don't know where it would be on somebody larger) was drilled into my head, because I could reach across my back with no difficulty and get a good shooting grip without compromising the safety of myself or others.
The thing I understand the least is why an instructor would teach this to somebody familiar with REVOLVERS which has a completely different manual of arms. (but does mirror a Glock)
Poor student, he probably didn't know what he was doing was as dangerous as it was.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-15-11, 13:04
Why was the gun even loaded?
madisonsfinest
03-15-11, 13:19
Why was the gun even loaded?
x2.
Even if you are trying this out, or learning a new technique it should always be practiced with a unloaded weapon until you are certain you can do the move safely
Off hand draw is in fact taught by many instructors and is something everyone needs to know how to do. The way it was shown in the video though, would not be the way I would do it or teach it (especially to new shooters)!
There are 4 main ways to get the gun out of the holster with your off hand. I will cover the safest to most dangerous.
First way: Draw weapon with off hand and rotate it so that the grip is now facing out. Insert the HG back into the holster and acquire your normal shooting grip. NOTE: This technique also works for mag changes as well.
Second way: Draw weapon with off hand from BEHIND your back. Acquire your shooting grip (if need be) once the weapon is at your side.
Third way: Draw weapon with off hand and position the gun between your legs. Acquire your shooting grip. NOTE: This technique also works for mag changes as well.
Fourth way: Draw weapon with off hand (with muzzle pointing down). Rotate the weapon on your chest until the grip is in the correct shooting position.
As you can see from the above ways to do this, that the fourth way is by far the most dangerous and has the highest probability of dropping the weapon. Why the student attempted to disengage the safety with his trigger finger is also strange. All he had to do is roll his left thumb over and push down.
I was wondering why the instructor would teach noobs the most dangerous way to draw with ones off hand, but my guess is because he didn't know how to do any of the other methods listed. :rolleyes:
C4
Demo of #3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNbXJUI5YuE
Mauser KAR98K
03-15-11, 21:11
Unless you have a 1911 type safety at the dove-tail, you could shoot the weapon inverted with you pinky squeezing the trigger. From the situation described that an off-hand draw is needed, the situation is messed up anyways.
Why was the gun even loaded?
and why did they even have live rounds o.O
Having a whole class of people with loose, live ammo, taking their first basic safety course. Ugh.
How senseless. A very bad instructor and a newb who couldn't keep his boogerhook off the bang button.
SmokeJumper
03-15-11, 23:17
Hmm, interesting rather advanced technique for a basic CCW class.
NCPatrolAR
03-16-11, 07:09
I'm not a fan of the chest roll and the method shown is incredibly unsafe due to muzzle orientation and the increased chances of the user dropping the gun and then trying to catch the gun as it falls.
I'm not a fan of the chest roll and the method shown is incredibly unsafe due to muzzle orientation and the increased chances of the user dropping the gun and then trying to catch the gun as it falls.
Totally agree. There are much better ways to do it.
C4
GLOCKMASTER
03-16-11, 17:57
Totally agree. There are much better ways to do it.
C4
Yes there is. My people were taught this long ago and I have been trying to change it for the last four years. I freaking cringe every time I see someone do it that way. When feasible, I really prefer returning it to the holster to complete the exchange or reload.
Ok, so just how many basic firearms handling rules are violated in doing this?
Jeff Franz
03-17-11, 07:30
Can't believe anyone still teaches this method. And now, when you read the comments below, bunch of idiots posting that you should never carry a "cocked" gun even with a safety. Some of them even claiming to be LEO for 25 years. Scary.
Yes there is. My people were taught this long ago and I have been trying to change it for the last four years. I freaking cringe every time I see someone do it that way. When feasible, I really prefer returning it to the holster to complete the exchange or reload.
Come to think of it, I think I was taught the "chest roll" method as being the preferred way. :no:
I much prefer the "return to holster" method as well.
C4
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