View Full Version : SI Defense
Wondering if anyone has heard of this manufacture. I have never heard of them and just stumbled across them. There stripped lowers seem to be a decent deal and they have a interesting video of one being made.
http://www.sonju.net/about_us.html
I'm interested too. There are some good deals currently on their billet lowers. I've read about tight magwells but that the company quickly took care of the issues.
Still, I'd rather not get a lower that needed a trip back to the factory.
Bump for any feedback to the OP.
TacMedic556
10-17-12, 18:01
Stay away from them. Personally know an officer who had to return out of spec uppers and lowers. Touring the facility, I discussed some specs I had questions on. Individual there who seemed quite in charge had no idea what the difference was between a Full Auto M16 BCG and AR civilian/commercial. Also, another individual/owner re-used a crush washer from an A2 bird cage after removing the A2 to place a Smith Vortex flash hider. Smiths do not require a washer and you never re-use a crush washer. After multiple other reports, I have heard and my experiences, I am much afraid of their product line until they get a grip on what specs are and make a point to get some people there who know a thing or two.
Fidalgoman
10-17-12, 20:07
I don't know too much about them other than they are about a mile or so north of Kalispell, MT. Seem to be doing a lot of business.
There is also another AR manufacturer south of Kalispell who caters mostly to special forces. NEMO is their name.
Littlelebowski
10-17-12, 20:17
There is also another AR manufacturer south of Kalispell who caters mostly to special forces. NEMO is their name.
Be careful what you believe.
lethal dose
10-17-12, 20:26
http://nemoarms.com/guns/
Completely absurd.
lethal dose
10-17-12, 20:29
http://nemoarms.com/portfolio/battle-light-1-0-ar-15-standard/gallery/guns/
MBUS sights for only $95!
http://nemoarms.com/portfolio/battle-light-1-0-ar-15-standard/gallery/guns/
MBUS sights for only $95!
1. If a places sucks so badly, why link to them?
2. How much do you think a set of MBUS sights are?
http://store.magpul.com/prod_detail_list/44
lethal dose
10-17-12, 21:10
Woah. Enhance calm. Guess I stand corrected on the MBUS sights.
TacMedic556
10-17-12, 23:18
Ok, first let's see a special forces Nemo firearm. Not going to happen. I would encourage any one to try to find that documented anywhere. We all know that Colt M4, HK, SR-25 (Stoner) etc. are the primary weapons of the SF.
SI - case closed. Out of spec company that is just another knock off brand. They originally specialized in CNC machining Aircraft parts in Kalispell. They saw the market for ARs and started machining them. Well, I have seen and heard horror stories.
As for NEMO, they are brand new. Read the newspaper articles on them. One of their head guys came out of being a tire salesman before being hired by NEMO. So far they have done a lot of talk, I have not seen any product worth getting excited about.
You want SF guns from the Kalispell area? Look up BlackOps Precision.
Austin_Nichols
10-17-12, 23:24
Stay away from them. Personally know an officer who had to return out of spec uppers and lowers. Touring the facility, I discussed some specs I had questions on. Individual there who seemed quite in charge had no idea what the difference was between a Full Auto M16 BCG and AR civilian/commercial. Also, another individual/owner re-used a crush washer from an A2 bird cage after removing the A2 to place a Smith Vortex flash hider. Smiths do not require a washer and you never re-use a crush washer. After multiple other reports, I have heard and my experiences, I am much afraid of their product line until they get a grip on what specs are and make a point to get some people there who know a thing or two.
You resurrected a year old thread. Sonju is now NEMO for what it's worth.
TacMedic556
10-17-12, 23:30
You resurrected a year old thread. Sonju is now NEMO for what it's worth.
Sonju still exists as far as I know, yet provides/works with Nemo in machining and some parts. Doesn't really matter. Totally over priced out of spec novelty guns. If you find one that has all the appropriate specs as listed in the "Chart" listed on this site let us know. You will never see one that is fully staked where it should be, 100% MPI or HPT, Certified barrel steel, etc. and so on.
yeah, they exist, just checked: http://www.si-defense.com/
Austin_Nichols
10-18-12, 00:19
Sonju still exists as far as I know, yet provides/works with Nemo in machining and some parts. Doesn't really matter. Totally over priced out of spec novelty guns. If you find one that has all the appropriate specs as listed in the "Chart" listed on this site let us know. You will never see one that is fully staked where it should be, 100% MPI or HPT, Certified barrel steel, etc. and so on.
yeah, they exist, just checked: http://www.si-defense.com/
They exist, but NEMO now owns the firearms side, SI Defense, which basically means (as you said) they are now partners with Sonju I guess: http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/nemo_arms_acquires_si_defense/25856
Whatever. I have no experience with either one but I'd love to know how many rifles of any kind NEMO has sold at those prices.
I have a SI Defense matched billet upper lower receiver I built into my 6.8SPC rifle and I have been very happy with it. I did have to tweak a little on my Troy rail to get it to fit flush but aside from that I have had no problems what so ever with the upper and lower. I did actually send the upper back to SI, not because of a problem, but because I had them Fail Zero it for me. I am exceptionally happy with how the rifle came out once completed, and I have received many compliments on the weapon and how it looks and shoots. I have had no problems with tight magwell but then I am running 6.8 mags and they are steel not polymer or aluminum (but i did use a 20 round pmag before I received my 6.8 mags.) Granted I built out the weapon myself, piece for piece, and took my time choosing what went into it. So I cannot speak to one of their completed rifles. The upper and lower though were well made and the treatment of the Fail Zero and color anodizing was great on mine. I'll link to a few photos of it if your interested.
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww66/freelancekilla/IMG_00781.jpg
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww66/freelancekilla/IMG_00801.jpg:shout:
I picked up two SI Defense AR lowers during the Obama craze for $100 each. (It was a good deal at the time)
I can confirm that the lowers were out of spec. Magpul Pmags would not fit in the magwell. GI aluminumn mags fit and dropped fine. I didn't find out until two years later. They took it back and fixed it, and covered shipping both ways.
Keep in mind this was four years ago, and they are very very early production lowers. The stamp mark on them is the old stamp mark they use to have (jolly roger). I don't know if they have gotten their act together since then.
Littlelebowski
10-18-12, 16:59
You want SF guns from the Kalispell area? Look up BlackOps Precision.
Are you saying their guns are being used by SF?
TacMedic556
10-18-12, 22:32
Are you saying their guns are being used by SF?
They manufactured and sold 14 precision bolt guns under contract to I believe the Navy. I do not have any horses in these races, just repeating what a very reliable source from their company spoke of.
They manufactured and sold 14 precision bolt guns under contract to I believe the Navy. I do not have any horses in these races, just repeating what a very reliable source from their company spoke of.
How about Columbia Falls, MT for Black Ops Precision (previous Underground Skunkworks). I can't say who Mike has or hasn't sold to but I have 2 rifles from him. If you have questions ring the office and ask. Mike Bush is one of the best builders in the business, period! He has rifles going in all directions to all different people and departments all over the place.
http://blackopsprecision.com/
First rifle from Mike:
http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo7/moyertr/060.jpg
Second rifle from Mike:
http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo7/moyertr/IMG_1755.jpg
As for SI Defense....... I've read plenty from the past about out of spec forged uppers. I do have a billett lower an am 100% satisfied with it. I bought it a couple years ago from Operations Parts when they still offered them. Would I buy another? Maybe another billett lower if the price was right, otherwise there are plenty of other makers out there with awesome reputations.
SI Defense Billett lower: (Patriot Brown Cerakote by Mike Bush)
http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo7/moyertr/SIDefenseLower_4-1.jpg
http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo7/moyertr/AR02032012_3a.jpg
http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo7/moyertr/ThugAR5.jpg
TacMedic556
11-03-12, 11:24
Totally agree on BlackOps. Mike Bush and Tim Cronin are probably the two best gunsmiths in the state of Montana right now. For sure the highest quality precision rifle makers in the region.
As for SI Defense and NEMO; not interested at all. I will stick with Colt, BCM, Noveske or Daniel Defense for black rifles and actual knowledge on how to build them.
Fidalgoman
11-03-12, 14:06
Totally agree on BlackOps. Mike Bush and Tim Cronin are probably the two best gunsmiths in the state of Montana right now. For sure the highest quality precision rifle makers in the region.
As for SI Defense and NEMO; not interested at all. I will stick with Colt, BCM, Noveske or Daniel Defense for black rifles and actual knowledge on how to build them.I can't defend or condemn any of the ten major gun makers in the flathead valley. Some have good reputations. Some not so good. Some improving. No bone to pick.
It looks however like you might brother. Just wondering what your personal beef was against these people. If any of them did you wrong, I can understand that.
It looks however like you might brother. Just wondering what your personal beef was against these people. If any of them did you wrong, I can understand that.
I am not going to put words in TacMedic's mouth but part of what he is saying is why do people keep trying to branch out from known quality? This boggles my mind.
How many threads lately are labeled, "Anyone have experience w/brand X"? Or something similar.
They may be a few exceptions out there such as Sionics but look who runs it and their website is very clear about materials, testing, dimensions, etc.
Basically what I am asking is why do people keep trying to avert a purchase (that probably is very close in price point) from the KNOWN good stuff like Colt, BCM, DD, and others.
I like to buy new stuff from time to time and try it out. But on something pricey such as a complete upper or rifle I am not going to close my eyes spin the globe and point. They may not be the coolest or the most exciting rifles out there but I am buying from someone that I know that their rifles work.
-Jax
I am not going to put words in TacMedic's mouth but part of what he is saying is why do people keep trying to branch out from known quality? This boggles my mind.
How many threads lately are labeled, "Anyone have experience w/brand X"? Or something similar.
They may be a few exceptions out there such as Sionics but look who runs it and their website is very clear about materials, testing, dimensions, etc.
Basically what I am asking is why do people keep trying to avert a purchase (that probably is very close in price point) from the KNOWN good stuff like Colt, BCM, DD, and others.
I like to buy new stuff from time to time and try it out. But on something pricey such as a complete upper or rifle I am not going to close my eyes spin the globe and point. They may not be the coolest or the most exciting rifles out there but I am buying from someone that I know that their rifles work.
-Jax
To some people, it is more important to be "different". To others, it is more important to have known/proven quality. In some circumstances it may be possible to have both - however, this tends to be the exception.
What's the purpose?
Defensive? Bad idea to risk being different. As mentioned numerous times here by vetted people, there are several proven manufacturers with thousands of proven products in the field. Choose one of those. What I like, and appreciate, is this site is geared towards defensive purposes and, thus, there is not much emphasis on being different just for the sake of it. Just good practical advice from knowledgeable people.
'Cuz I have the dough and want to be different? Ok, if it floats your boat.
TacMedic556
11-03-12, 17:01
I can't defend or condemn any of the ten major gun makers in the flathead valley. Some have good reputations. Some not so good. Some improving. No bone to pick.
It looks however like you might brother. Just wondering what your personal beef was against these people. If any of them did you wrong, I can understand that.
Personal beef? Where did that come from? I don't know any of them personally and have never based my firearms purchases or preferences on whether I like "persons" of a company or have shot pool with them. I base my decisions on interactions with the company, friends and colleagues interactions, personal inspection of their product based on the much discussed TDP criteria found on this very forum and so on. Having seen one too many out of spec upper or lower, mis-fit parts that have to be monkeyed to fit with other parts etc. Then all the whiz bang worship of Nib parts and "tacticool" finishes made for the smooth Operatahs out there. Its just another company that focuses on cool looks and finishes, while leaving the gas key poorly staked, castle nut not staked, low grade materials, Unknown sourced BCG or bolts, the list goes on.
No one there did me wrong. I wish them well. As a matter of fact, I wish they would follow after the likes of Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM) and the likes of Paul Buffoni. If they did that, they would grow, demand would increase for quality, mil-spec, properly built M4 variants and I would love their well made weapons.
Let me ask this question to the forum members: How many of you know the difference between a M16 Mil-spec Bolt Carrier and a Commercial Non Mil-spec carrier? I am guessing nearly 90% of you do. Follow up, what would you do if one of the HEAD GUYS at an M4 variant manufacturing facility, who is in charge of production, QA/QI, assembly etc. had no idea what you were talking about when you discussed the differences between the two in person and even tried to show him by presenting the BCG? That was just ONE of my personal encounters there. The other, was the leaving of a crush washer under a Smith Vortex Flash Hider, which states even in the instructions not to have the crush washer. Not to mention, a crush washer is a one time use only part. If he were removing a damaged A2 Birdcage and replacing it with another, he would need to use a new crush washer, not the old one.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107260&highlight=crush+washer
These above, already mentioned issues, coupled with the fact that I witnessed a guy get uppers and lower halves that literally went together like a square peg in a round whole, have convinced me to steer far away from such companies. Let them make what they are good at, aircraft parts, not everyone is cut out to build fine weapons.
Austin_Nichols
11-03-12, 17:23
Even the good manufacturers/assemblers were an unknown at some point. DD, Noveske, Vltor, etc all had to start from somewhere and only grew because people took a chance in the beginning.
That being said, it's not too hard to spot bullshit marketing, and the nonsense pricing that Nemo's got on their website is laughable.
For a relatively unknown, if I wanted to try a rifle/receiver to have something different, I certainly wouldn't rely on that as my primary until the round count was sufficient to prove reliability. And really, if you might end up in harms way with a carbine, the same should hold true even for well known brands.
Even the good manufacturers/assemblers were an unknown at some point. DD, Noveske, Vltor, etc all had to start from somewhere and only grew because people took a chance in the beginning.
That being said, it's not too hard to spot bullshit marketing, and the nonsense pricing that Nemo's got on their website is laughable.
For a relatively unknown, if I wanted to try a rifle/receiver to have something different, I certainly wouldn't rely on that as my primary until the round count was sufficient to prove reliability. And really, if you might end up in harms way with a carbine, the same should hold true even for well known brands.
I don't disagree with your first statement, but goddamn, I bet who ever worked at BCM or Daniel Defense and was in charge of everything could tell you the difference between a commercial and auto carrier. That's unacceptable.
Austin_Nichols
11-03-12, 19:22
I don't disagree with your first statement, but goddamn, I bet who ever worked at BCM or Daniel Defense and was in charge of everything could tell you the difference between a commercial and auto carrier. That's unacceptable.
Agreed and in no way was my comment in defense of SI. I was thinking more about newer companies like Sionics who are trying to build their reputation and brand awareness. On the other hand, I won't indict a company because of a single story on a forum either. Trust but verify. That's where time, customer experience, field reports, etc. come into play. If a new, up and coming outfit doesn't know the difference between their ass and hole in the ground, that will eventually bear out and usually doesn't take a lot of research.
New companies, products, innovations, are all good for the consumer. This time after the AWB sunset is the golden age of weapons development. Let's hope Tuesday isn't the beginning of the end....
Fidalgoman
11-03-12, 19:53
Stay away from them. Personally know an officer who had to return out of spec uppers and lowers. Touring the facility, I discussed some specs I had questions on. Individual there who seemed quite in charge had no idea what the difference was between a Full Auto M16 BCG and AR civilian/commercial. Also, another individual/owner re-used a crush washer from an A2 bird cage after removing the A2 to place a Smith Vortex flash hider. Smiths do not require a washer and you never re-use a crush washer. After multiple other reports, I have heard and my experiences, I am much afraid of their product line until they get a grip on what specs are and make a point to get some people there who know a thing or two.This is what I was talking about.
Personal beef? Where did that come from?
I am not going to put words in TacMedic's mouth but part of what he is saying is why do people keep trying to branch out from known quality? This boggles my mind.
How many threads lately are labeled, "Anyone have experience w/brand X"? Or something similar.
They may be a few exceptions out there such as Sionics but look who runs it and their website is very clear about materials, testing, dimensions, etc.
Basically what I am asking is why do people keep trying to avert a purchase (that probably is very close in price point) from the KNOWN good stuff like Colt, BCM, DD, and others.
I like to buy new stuff from time to time and try it out. But on something pricey such as a complete upper or rifle I am not going to close my eyes spin the globe and point. They may not be the coolest or the most exciting rifles out there but I am buying from someone that I know that their rifles work.
-JaxThe simple answer is this is a free country (sort of) and a lot of people want to get a piece of the pie.
OK all my AR's are Colts, modified with better triggers, flash hiders, sling mounts, furniture, etc. I am very happy with them. I would not however compare them to a Noveske at twice the asking price. I would however trade with Noveske if they just had to have my rifles. :)
I can remember when a few of the big players today had, shall we say questionable quality control issues. They got over it and now put out acceptible products testified to by the market. IMHO it is best to judge a product by personal examination and make a personal decision.
You could be absolutely right in everything you say, I don't know. It just hit me as sounding like a personal issue. Perhaps I misread you.
This is what I was talking about.
The simple answer is this is a free country (sort of) and a lot of people want to get a piece of the pie.
OK all my AR's are Colts, modified with better triggers, flash hiders, sling mounts, furniture, etc. I am very happy with them. I would not however compare them to a Noveske at twice the asking price. I would however trade with Noveske if they just had to have my rifles. :)
I can remember when a few of the big players today had, shall we say questionable quality control issues. They got over it and now put out acceptible products testified to by the market. IMHO it is best to judge a product by personal examination and make a personal decision.
You could be absolutely right in everything you say, I don't know. It just hit me as sounding like a personal issue. Perhaps I misread you.
I hear ya... but. IMHO it's best to judge a product based upon a large sample batch, years of operational use and vetted operator feedback.. Then, as a hack non-mil/leo dude will I personally feel comfortable trusting my life with the tool.
TacMedic556
12-01-12, 22:09
These guns are all looks and marketing at this point:
http://nemoarms.com/eye-candy/
A scroll through the gallery will reveal things such as unstaked castle nut on what the call the TiONE ($95,000 Rifle made of Ti). $95,000 and they can't even stake the nut? It appears that the BCG in several photos is marked that it is made of 416 Stainless?
No locktite is NOT a fix or replacement for staking. A stainless BCG would wear far faster than the standard 8620 with a Carpentar#158 bolt.
These puurdy rifles would be interesting to see go through a procurement testing process.
TacMedic556
01-20-13, 00:16
Just recently I saw a Colt lower that had Gen 2 KNS pins installed by SI Defense about 5 years ago. I kid you not, the pins were installed in reverse. The trigger pin and hammer pin were swapped places.
When correctly installed the pin that receives the little hex head nut is the pin closest to the safety this is the trigger pin. They had it swapped and the hex head nut receiving pin was installed as the hammer pin, with the anti-rotationals put on as they would be.
Hard to picture but just look at any KNS pin that is installed properly and imagine the little hex head nut in the other hole. It was wrong. No big deal, the guy removed them and put in a Geissele instead.
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