View Full Version : How to convince my Father to buy a good AR?
turdbocharged
03-16-11, 09:04
I've been trying to convince my Father to sell his xyz and buy any of the tier1 AR's but he just won't listen and I respect him too much to be rude about it. I learned the hard way years ago with my xyz and quickly sold it to fund a 6920 which has been flawless for me.
I try to point out the lack of quality in his 500$ 6 year old xyz and the 30$ tasco/bsa red dots he loves to buy but he just won't let it go. His philosophy seems to be buy as many guns as possible instead of getting a few quality pieces.
Anybody have similar problems with their close friends/relatives?
I don't even try... I have a Brother in law who loves his DPMS.
I wouldn't even talk to him if he owned an OLY or LWRC though... :mad:
QuietShootr
03-16-11, 09:09
Yup. My FIL is a crap gun collector. He probably buys four to six guns a month from his local dealer (who no doubt has him pegged for a sucker years ago). Every once in a while the blind hog does find an acorn - he bought five of the SIG P6s when they were cheap and gave me a couple of them, but by and large his collection is hundreds of pieces of shit that I'm going to have to sell in bulk when he croaks.
I don't even mess with him. I'll get to sort through it and pick out the few jewels soon enough.
.
Here is a Thread with the same concerns and some good discussion that may help. LINK (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66385&highlight=Father).
.
turdbocharged
03-16-11, 09:25
Yeah, my FIL is even worse in that he hates polymer guns period.
I at least got him to sell his kimbers for some colts. But neither of them will touch a Glock, M&P, or H&K. I get tired of having the discussion with them about how their Olympics are the most accurate guns they own and my FIL has this hatred for 5.56 and thinks his SKS is the best battle rifle even better than an AK.
It's just frustrating because I love them both and they are wonderful people.
Why even try?
If he likes them, great.
If he asks your advice, give it.
Enjoy hanging out and shooting together.
turdbocharged
03-16-11, 10:47
Why even try?
If he likes them, great.
If he asks your advice, give it.
Enjoy hanging out and shooting together.
Good point.
Moose-Knuckle
03-16-11, 10:49
Yes, I can relate. I just leave it alone and worry about my own kit.
Good luck, in my experience it is nearly impossible to put these people on the right track. They normally seem to buy from what is in stock at a local dealer for the best price. For the past few months a co-worker has been asking my opinion on M4s. I gave him the whole spill and recommended nothing less than the S&W M&Ps. A couple of weeks ago he chased me down to brag about his new BM:suicide2:
You can lead them to water but you can't make them drink.
I've had the same problem with my dad, first he bought a Mini 14, even though i told him how inaccurate it would be, he didn't believe me till we went to the rang with it and he saw first hand that it was a pos. Then he decided to get a AR i told him not to get a Olympic because it will more then likely fail him(i offered to build him a rifle but he didn't want to wait for it) , again he didn't listen to me and bought a Olympic. Instead of arguing with him or trying to persuade him i just accept that he is happy with his purchase and at least he has a reguler capacity gun that he can bring out to the range and we can spend time together shooting. I know that eventually if we shoot enough he will see why it is that i pay more for my guns and he will upgrade and if he doesn't then oh well at least we get to shoot together.
turdbocharged
03-16-11, 11:07
Ya there is nothing like quality time at the range with your father.
I wouldn't even talk to him if he owned an OLY or LWRC though... :mad:
I could understand the Oly but why the LWRC? You'd be too jealous?
My family has come to me with purchase decisions since high school, mainly for computers and electronics. In the past few years I've steered most gun purchases as well. My brother has a revolver he took to Alaska for a vacation as where he was staying had grizzlies regularly, my sister has a couple handguns, and my mom got a gun for her purse since none of us can convince her to carry on her body. Since it's been going on for a while it's become a simple process, they just tell me what they want it for and their requirements and I produce a few recommendations, usually after a bit of research, and then usually have a discussion explaining my reasoning behind each one.
Though some members of my family are extremely pig headed, of course... I just know which ones and let them tell me how great their Bushmaster or Philippines-sourced gun is, because I know I'm not going to convince them so there is no point in forcing an argument.
I've been trying to convince my Father to sell his Olympic and buy any of the tier1 AR's but he just won't listen and I respect him too much to be rude about it. I learned the hard way years ago with my DPMS sportical and quickly sold it to fund a 6920 which has been flawless for me.
I try to point out the lack of quality in his 500$ 6 year old olympic and the 30$ tasco/bsa red dots he loves to buy but he just won't let it go. His philosophy seems to be buy as many guns as possible instead of getting a few quality pieces.
Anybody have similar problems with their close friends/relatives?
Does he even shoot it (or shoot under 500rds a year)? If so, then just let him be (as he won't know the difference).
Not everyone needs a quality AR.
C4
I could understand the Oly but why the LWRC? You'd be too jealous?
:no: Oh no you didn't, Shaniqua!!!
Right, not everyone needs a top tier AR.
However, if you ever even so much as think about counting on your plinker-grade AR in the event of a home invasion or disaster scenario, you're fooling yourself.
Just realized that you are in Ohio (about 1.5-2hrs from me). We teach defensive carbine (for free) just about every month so come on down and bring your Father and his gun. We will push it and see if anything breaks. That will change his mind. ;)
C4
turdbocharged
03-16-11, 12:35
Just realized that you are in Ohio (about 1.5-2hrs from me). We teach defensive carbine (for free) just about every month so come on down and bring your Father and his gun. We will push it and see if anything breaks. That will change his mind.
That would be awesome!
kubmiester
03-16-11, 12:35
This is just as difficult as giving your opinion to your wife on how she is accessorizing her outfit for the evening. It’s not going to go anywhere but down for me! I’d like to think I know better at this point in life.
Moose-Knuckle
03-16-11, 12:43
Right, not everyone needs a top tier AR.
However, if you ever even so much as think about counting on your plinker-grade AR in the event of a home invasion or disaster scenario, you're fooling yourself.
Agreed, people who own Bushmaster, RRA, etc think that there is no differance.
bsmith_shoot
03-16-11, 12:45
Just realized that you are in Ohio (about 1.5-2hrs from me). We teach defensive carbine (for free) just about every month so come on down and bring your Father and his gun. We will push it and see if anything breaks. That will change his mind. ;)
C4
Ill take that offer. :haha: Im in E. KY, and been using Tactical Response, down in Camden, TN for about 2 years now, I need a change of scenary. Where you located? Where do I find a class schedule?
Oh yeah! On the subject at hand. My father is a collector of many fine firearm, original S&W model 29's, a German MP43, a couple custom 1911's, some custom revolvers, and a whole slew of other very nice firearms. He owns a Bushy for an AR. He shoots probably 250-400 rnds a year with it, and loves it. He knows the differance between his AR and mine. He doesnt care.
In short, if he enjoys his rifle, and it isnt the only weapon he has for defensive purposes, then let it go.
That would be awesome!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=941182#post941182
C4
Ill take that offer. :haha: Im in E. KY, and been using Tactical Response, down in Camden, TN for about 2 years now, I need a change of scenary. Where you located? Where do I find a class schedule?
Oh yeah! On the subject at hand. My father is a collector of many fine firearm, original S&W model 29's, a German MP43, a couple custom 1911's, some custom revolvers, and a whole slew of other very nice firearms. He owns a Bushy for an AR. He shoots probably 250-400 rnds a year with it, and loves it. He knows the differance between his AR and mine. He doesnt care.
In short, if he enjoys his rifle, and it isnt the only weapon he has for defensive purposes, then let it go.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=941182#post941182
Classes will start next month. Typically 1 day classes so I am not sure it is worth the drive.
C4
A "good AR" is one that will work when you need it. If it's an Oly, then so be it. My Oly runs just as good as my Colt. And I don't mind feeding it Wolf ammo.
A "good AR" is one that will work when you need it. If it's an Oly, then so be it. My Oly runs just as good as my Colt. And I don't mind feeding it Wolf ammo.
Let's not start this again. You're glazing over enough details that your statement is completely invalid. Especially in the context of having a gun that will run if you really "need" it to run (outside of statistically insignificant small sample sizes).
Let's not start this again. You're glazing over enough details that your statement is completely invalid. Especially in the context of having a gun that will run if you really "need" it to run.
Then maybe you can enlighten me as to how I'm "glazing over enough details".
Gimme a break. This is turning into a Oly bashing thread.
I will say again, slowly this time....my..Oly..runs..as..well..as..my..Colt.
Sorry if you have a problem with that.
Moose-Knuckle
03-16-11, 17:00
Then maybe you can enlighten me as to how I'm "glazing over enough details".
Gimme a break. This is turning into a Oly bashing thread.
I will say again, slowly this time....my..Oly..runs..as..well..as..my..Colt.
Sorry if you have a problem with that.
Okay I'll bite, just how hard have you run your Olympic Arms rifle? How about your Colt?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you haven't run it as hard as Joe runs his. I'm sure it works for what you use it for.
I wish I had the budget for the ammo to run mine hard all the time....;)
When my Dad wanted to get an AR, we had many long discussions on brands & features etc. He eventually realized that for a similar cost he could buy a top quality rifle. I spent hours finding good stickie posts and compiled links into a few emails so he could spend some time reading for himself as well. He eventually bought two complete LMT lowers and topped them off with a Noveske N4 basic middie and a BCM middie + DD Omega rail from Grant. He loves those rifles.
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Just realized that you are in Ohio (about 1.5-2hrs from me). We teach defensive carbine (for free) just about every month so come on down and bring your Father and his gun. We will push it and see if anything breaks. That will change his mind. ;)
C4
I have never wished I lived in Ohio until just now. Jealous.
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Okay I'll bite, just how hard have you run your Olympic Arms rifle? How about your Colt?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you haven't run it as hard as Joe runs his. I'm sure it works for what you use it for.
I've ran the Oly a lot harder than I've ran the Colt. 6000-7000 rounds and NEVER a problem. The Oly is the most forgiving AR I've ever owned. That's why it stay's in the truck. I base my opinion on whether I would trust my life with the weapon. If I ever run into a problem, most likely it will be on the road. That's why the Oly is behind the seat.
The Colt (LE6920) on the other hand is not quite as forgiving. It's picky about what I feed it, It doesn't run well unless it's clean, and I will probably get rid of it.
The CMMG LEM4 hasn't had enough range time yet to make an honest judgement, but I think it will be a better rifle than the Colt.
I'm not an AR God, or expert by any means. You are correct in stating that it really depends on what you're using it for.
3-Gun matches? Nope.
Competition? Nope.
Trusting my life with the Oly? Yep.
I've ran the Oly a lot harder than I've ran the Colt. 6000-7000 rounds and NEVER a problem. The Oly is the most forgiving AR I've ever owned. That's why it stay's in the truck. I base my opinion on whether I would trust my life with the weapon. If I ever run into a problem, most likely it will be on the road. That's why the Oly is behind the seat.
The Colt (LE6920) on the other hand is not quite as forgiving. It's picky about what I feed it, It doesn't run well unless it's clean, and I will probably get rid of it.
The CMMG LEM4 hasn't had enough range time yet to make an honest judgement, but I think it will be a better rifle than the Colt.
I'm not an AR God, or expert by any means. You are correct in stating that it really depends on what you're using it for.
3-Gun matches? Nope.
Competition? Nope.
Trusting my life with the Oly? Yep.
How long of a time frame was that 6-7k rounds?
My department runs mostly Colt 6920s, except for one batch of Bushmasters, and from my experience they run great. Our 40 hours rifle school runs somewhere north of 3000 rounds in 4 days. My Bushmaster broke twice during the class. The Colts just got dirty.
As to the OP question, I have given up for the most part. My best friend is a great shooter. He doesnt mess around when it comes to handguns or shotguns, but he uses a BM with crappy TAPCO type accessories.
Im close to getting him to switch though. We are gonna go run some IDPA style range sessions with our rifles soon and maybe he will see the light of day then.
How long of a time frame was that 6-7k rounds?
My department runs mostly Colt 6920s, except for one batch of Bushmasters, and from my experience they run great. Our 40 hours rifle school runs somewhere north of 3000 rounds in 4 days. My Bushmaster broke twice during the class. The Colts just got dirty.
Not nearly the time span that you have had with yours. The hardest I've probably ran it was 1500-2000 rds. over a weekend. All steel-cased ammo, and I didn't clean it until we were done.
I realize Oly is not very popular with the AR masses, but I can honestly say it's probably one of the best $650.00 investments I've made in a gun. Which by the way, makes it a lot easier to chuck it behind the seat and forget about it.
Kinda like owning an AK. Shoot it, don't clean it, don't worry about it because it only costs a few hundred bucks.
Not nearly the time span that you have had with yours. The hardest I've probably ran it was 1500-2000 rds. over a weekend. All steel-cased ammo, and I didn't clean it until we were done.
I realize Oly is not very popular with the AR masses, but I can honestly say it's probably one of the best $650.00 investments I've made in a gun. Which by the way, makes it a lot easier to chuck it behind the seat and forget about it.
Kinda like owning an AK. Shoot it, don't clean it, don't worry about it because it only costs a few hundred bucks.
No one is saying the Oly cant be reliable. Hell my Bushmaster duty rifle has never malfunctioned firing or cycling wise. But that dorsnt really matter when the safety breaks and wont switch to fire or the trigger breaks.
The lower tier companies make good sporting rifles. They cut corners here and there to lower cost. If something breaks because it was made inferior, during a range trip, oh well. But if it breaks during a firefight with armed bank robbers, youre in a much worse situation.
Many of the people on this sight are military, LEO, PMC or people who are serious about their rifles. To me and the others here, the AR-15 is a fighting tool first.... and thats how I treat all of them.
No one is saying the Oly cant be reliable. Hell my Bushmaster duty rifle has never malfunctioned firing or cycling wise. But that dorsnt really matter when the safety breaks and wont switch to fire or the trigger breaks.
The lower tier companies make good sporting rifles. They cut corners here and there to lower cost. If something breaks because it was made inferior, during a range trip, oh well. But if it breaks during a firefight with armed bank robbers, youre in a much worse situation.
Many of the people on this sight are military, LEO, PMC or people who are serious about their rifles. To me and the others here, the AR-15 is a fighting tool first.... and thats how I treat all of them.
Nothin' wrong with that!
turdbocharged
03-17-11, 05:38
Wow I definitely did not intend for this to be a bash thread about xyz rifle. Guess I should have chosen my words more carefully. I have no problem with xyz brand I just learned through experience that there were better options.
I've been trying to convince my Father to sell his xyz and buy any of the tier1 AR's...
Don't. Time with your father is too short to spend it arguing (unless it's just good natured and you're both having fun).
Best thing to do is either buy him a complete rifle as a present or buy all the right parts (preferably two of each) and build it (them) together. I can guarantee it will become his favorite (and yours if you use the two of each option)
If he asks then give him advice and if he doesn't then keep it to yourself.
If I was driving my car and my buddy walked up and started telling me how inferior my car was and I should have bought xyz...I would be less than receptive. People are so darn quick to jump all over a fellow shooter. Its counter productive no matter how you look at it.
I say less time nit-picking and arguing and more time shooting.
-J
Then maybe you can enlighten me as to how I'm "glazing over enough details".
Gimme a break. This is turning into a Oly bashing thread.
I will say again, slowly this time....my..Oly..runs..as..well..as..my..Colt.
Sorry if you have a problem with that.
Your Oly may in fact run as long and as well as your Colt. In fact, there is a chance that your Colt will fail you before your Oly. :eek:
With that said, the odds are stacked against your Oly (if it is factory built and you have not done any upgrades tot it).
I would run your Oly in a few carbine schools (keeping the Colt as a Hot Spare) and see what you get. If the Oly makes it, then you may have a good one and should consider buying a lottery ticket. ;)
C4
I have never wished I lived in Ohio until just now. Jealous.
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LOL, well I would like to think that the training was SO GOOD that it would cause people to move to another State, but that just isn't true. :no:
C4
Smuckatelli
03-17-11, 10:18
I've been trying to convince my Father to sell his xyz and buy any of the tier1 AR's but he just won't listen and I respect him too much to be rude about it.
Keep your respect for him intact, stop trying to convince him. Step back and look how many people get butt hurt over weapon choices. The moment that someones choice gtg weapon is questioned, the person has a couple of answers:
This weapon never stops.
That is a bunch of internet BS.
I modified and corrected the problems.
Those issues were solved years ago by the manufacturer.
This weapon is good for my budget.
There are many answers that can be used, on the internet, not a big deal.....everybody be much more smarter on da internet....getting butthurt is not that big of a deal.
Time with your dad is more important, if you get range time with him....even better.
Screwing up your relationship isn't worth it. Get enough time on the range, wait for the gun to breakdown and offer advice when and if he asks for it.
I've had the same problem with my dad, first he bought a Mini 14, even though i told him how inaccurate it would be, he didn't believe me till we went to the rang with it and he saw first hand that it was a pos. Then he decided to get a AR i told him not to get a Olympic because it will more then likely fail him(i offered to build him a rifle but he didn't want to wait for it) , again he didn't listen to me and bought a Olympic. Instead of arguing with him or trying to persuade him i just accept that he is happy with his purchase and at least he has a reguler capacity gun that he can bring out to the range and we can spend time together shooting. I know that eventually if we shoot enough he will see why it is that i pay more for my guns and he will upgrade and if he doesn't then oh well at least we get to shoot together.
My father was the same way with the Mini-14. He wanted one for years and my mother and I finally bought him one for Christmas. Then he discovered it wasn't accurate, particularly fun to shoot, and magazines were either junk, limited capacity Ruger brand, or hard to find (and very expensive) Ruger brand 20s and 30s. Didn't take him long to get an AR after that.
Right, not everyone needs a top tier AR.
However, if you ever even so much as think about counting on your plinker-grade AR in the event of a home invasion or disaster scenario, you're fooling yourself.
I'm sure anyone on this site would shake in their boots if they the OP father was pointing his loaded plinker grade AR at them. Just because it is not a heavy duty use rifle doesn't mean it can't handle the job as a home defense weapon. While not intended for heavy duty use most of the plinker grade rifles if cared for still go bang when the trigger is pulled.
I would also do the same if you pointed a Hi point at me. Your analogy is silly and irrelevant.
I'm sure anyone on this site would shake in their boots if they the OP father was pointing his loaded plinker grade AR at them. Just because it is not a heavy duty use rifle doesn't mean it can't handle the job as a home defense weapon. While not intended for heavy duty use most of the plinker grade rifles if cared for still go bang when the trigger is pulled.
I would also do the same if you pointed a Hi point at me. Your analogy is silly and irrelevant.
That argument pops up a lot on forums and it's annoying. It's always related to caliber or reliability arguments. I don't let people point air guns or thoroughly rusted guns at me, that doesn't mean they are both sufficient and reliable.
BufordTJustice
03-18-11, 00:05
That argument pops up a lot on forums and it's annoying. It's always related to caliber or reliability arguments. I don't let people point air guns or thoroughly rusted guns at me, that doesn't mean they are both sufficient and reliable.
Holy Shit.
I don't let anybody point even a known empty gun at me unless I am training with a select few trusted souls.
Had a dumbass sweep the line (and me) at my agencies annual quals recently. DA got angry cuz I jumped down her throat about it. She said sarcastically, "It's EMPTY. Don't freak out!"
I asked her what she thought would happen to a mope who did that to me on the street...and what made her feel so much different from the mope at that point.
After some quiet time, she came back out to the range and finished her business...away from me.
Hmbeal, analogies about pointing some questionably reliable gun at ANYBODY is fuggin stupid. Do that to me or others here and you'll get shot right-quick. Empty, loaded, rusted, high quality, or gun-show-special....a guy points it at me and he's a dead man.
Slow your obnoxious roll and check yourself. This is a distraction from the discussion at hand.
Sit down and talk to him man it's your Dad. I would not beat your head against the wall but give it an honest try. Look him in the eye and tell him you care about him and you can save him money and headaches by pointing him towards a hand full of high quality guns. Try the Colt name, that might work just because of the name recognition.
I would also do the same if you pointed a Hi point at me. Your analogy is silly and irrelevant.
Please explain to me then how a Bushmaster or DPMS or OLY are not capable of being a home defense weapon. More often then not around here people seem to think a Bushmaster or the like will explode into pieces the minute it is used in a self defense situation and that is complete BS. The point is if you have a Bushmaster or whatever bottom tier AR if it is cared for and kept lubed up there is no reason it can't be considered a home defense weapon.
Please explain to me then how a Bushmaster or DPMS or OLY are not capable of being a home defense weapon. More often then not around here people seem to think a Bushmaster or the like will explode into pieces the minute it is used in a self defense situation and that is complete BS. The point is if you have a Bushmaster or whatever bottom tier AR if it is cared for and kept lubed up there is no reason it can't be considered a home defense weapon.
Getting shot hurts. Doing the most you can to minimize even a small chance of getting shot is PRUDENT.
Doing the most you can to ensure reliability of something your life depends on is PRUDENT.
Prudence is the ability to govern oneself by the use of REASON.
GermanSynergy
03-18-11, 03:22
I bought my dad a Noveske a few years ago just so we wouldn't ever have this conversation.
Right, not everyone needs a top tier AR.
However, if you ever even so much as think about counting on your plinker-grade AR in the event of a home invasion or disaster scenario, you're fooling yourself.
I disagree. You don't even NEED an AR to defend against a home invasion. You can fend off robbers with a Hi Point.
turdbocharged
03-18-11, 05:16
I bought my dad a Noveske a few years ago just so we wouldn't ever have this discussion.
This sounds like a wonderful solution!! Thanks.
Whatever you say. You're the expert.
Please explain to me then how a Bushmaster or DPMS or OLY are not capable of being a home defense weapon. More often then not around here people seem to think a Bushmaster or the like will explode into pieces the minute it is used in a self defense situation and that is complete BS. The point is if you have a Bushmaster or whatever bottom tier AR if it is cared for and kept lubed up there is no reason it can't be considered a home defense weapon.
QuickStrike
03-18-11, 05:58
It's almost impossible to convince a dude of anything, especially if that dude is your dad.
You can sign him, and yourself up for a high round count class and have this face:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTupuSAfpMR9SgdyWpito1PRr3_3eIfh29gwRP3ZRGReR9rwhib&t=1
every single time his gun malfs.
After he disses out the highly probable ass whuppin', he might be interested in a better AR.
turdbocharged
03-18-11, 06:43
It's almost impossible to convince a dude of anything, especially if that dude is your dad.
You can sign him, and yourself up for a high round count class and have this face:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...GReR9rwhib&t=1
every single time his gun malfs.
After he disses out the highly probable ass whuppin', he might be interested in a better AR.
Hahahaha that face is hilarious. Anyhow I don't want his gun to malfunction I do want it to work. I think I'll just buy him a 6920 and be done with it and he can still use his wxyz brand for a backup.
Don't. Time with your father is too short to spend it arguing (unless it's just good natured and you're both having fun).
Best thing to do is either buy him a complete rifle as a present or buy all the right parts (preferably two of each) and build it (them) together. I can guarantee it will become his favorite (and yours if you use the two of each option)
I completely agree.
Source Parts from one of the qaulity venders and spend some time with him building one. Once you guys are done, give it to him as a gift and be done with it. He'll have something that he'll love because you two spent the time togeather on it and you'll know it has qaulity parts and will not fail him if he ever needs it.
MHO
I've been trying to convince my Father to sell his xyz and buy any of the tier1 AR's but he just won't listen and I respect him too much to be rude about it. I learned the hard way years ago with my xyz and quickly sold it to fund a 6920 which has been flawless for me.
I try to point out the lack of quality in his 500$ 6 year old xyz and the 30$ tasco/bsa red dots he loves to buy but he just won't let it go. His philosophy seems to be buy as many guns as possible instead of getting a few quality pieces.
Anybody have similar problems with their close friends/relatives?
If he only plinks with it or shoots semi-competitively, and will never trust his life on it, what's the point????
If he's a LEO, or works in a combat zone, or shoots at the highest competition levels... Sure. Otherwise, let him spend his money where he wants. He's a big boy...
Jeff
I could care less what my Dad shoots
at almost 80 he can shoot what he wants
Enjoy your Pop while he still around
It goes quick.
I'm just as happy to get mine out on the back patio shoot'n the old Daisy when I can....
Please explain to me then how a Bushmaster or DPMS or OLY are not capable of being a home defense weapon. More often then not around here people seem to think a Bushmaster or the like will explode into pieces the minute it is used in a self defense situation and that is complete BS. The point is if you have a Bushmaster or whatever bottom tier AR if it is cared for and kept lubed up there is no reason it can't be considered a home defense weapon.
I don't know about bushmaster or oly, but my first AR was a $750 dpms that refused to eject properly and had the gas key detach on my second magazine. I'm sure it was a lemon but it definitely turned me off from any bargain guns.
RogerinTPA
03-18-11, 10:23
Hahahaha that face is hilarious. Anyhow I don't want his gun to malfunction I do want it to work. I think I'll just buy him a 6920 and be done with it and he can still use his wxyz brand for a backup.
Good decision, HOWEVER...just because you buy him a top notch weapon doesn't mean it will not fail at a certain point. Buy a top grade weapon is just the first step. If you don't set it up for reliable use, then malfunctions WILL occur.
The set up is equally important:
1. Inspection and cleaning of the new weapon to insure no manufacturing defects.
2. Proper lube applied & ensuring it is sufficiently lubed while in use.
Especially in a carbine course.
3. Quality mags.
4. Quality ammo.
5. Proper maintenance.
6. Quality professional instruction.
I'm sure there are more, but that list covers the basics.
Well said. I am qualified to say this is good advice as my Father is gone and I miss him everyday. The man had a Colt Detective Special and insisted on getting a Taurus ... whatever. I just gave him some .38spl hand loads and we went shooting.
Keep your respect for him intact, stop trying to convince him. Step back and look how many people get butt hurt over weapon choices. The moment that someones choice gtg weapon is questioned, the person has a couple of answers:
This weapon never stops.
That is a bunch of internet BS.
I modified and corrected the problems.
Those issues were solved years ago by the manufacturer.
This weapon is good for my budget.
There are many answers that can be used, on the internet, not a big deal.....everybody be much more smarter on da internet....getting butthurt is not that big of a deal.
Time with your dad is more important, if you get range time with him....even better.
Screwing up your relationship isn't worth it. Get enough time on the range, wait for the gun to breakdown and offer advice when and if he asks for it.
Please explain to me then how a Bushmaster or DPMS or OLY are not capable of being a home defense weapon. More often then not around here people seem to think a Bushmaster or the like will explode into pieces the minute it is used in a self defense situation and that is complete BS. The point is if you have a Bushmaster or whatever bottom tier AR if it is cared for and kept lubed up there is no reason it can't be considered a home defense weapon.
You can use what every you'd like as a HD weapon. As long as you walk into it with your eyes wide open and know what you have.
There is a photo I've seen many times in gum mags with Clint Smith holding a double bbl shotgun with a flash light attached with rubber bands, zip ties or duct tape. If that is what you have that is what you have. I think the double bbl shotgun in Clint's hands would work for most HD issues especially if he is well trained with the weapon. That said I would be more comfortable with my 870 pump and I am sure he would too.
Make sure your stuff is staked and lubed and carry on. There is a big difference between the quality of parts and quality control out there in the AR world. It is the same with anything. I have Craftsman tools they work great for me and so do my DeWalt power tools. Some of my tools are well over twenty years old. They probably do not have six months of full time use on them it the past twenty years. If you’re a professional mechanic or carpenter my tools would probably not cut it or hold up to the heavy duty use. I know what I have and it’s limitations. That said if I could buy Snap On tools for the same price as Craftsmen tools I would that is a no brainer. So why not buy a BCM, LMT, DD or Colt instead of a BM, Oly, Delton…….?
Please explain to me then how a Bushmaster or DPMS or OLY are not capable of being a home defense weapon. More often then not around here people seem to think a Bushmaster or the like will explode into pieces the minute it is used in a self defense situation and that is complete BS. The point is if you have a Bushmaster or whatever bottom tier AR if it is cared for and kept lubed up there is no reason it can't be considered a home defense weapon.
If all you have is a shrubmaster, you might as well pull it out when something goes bump in the night. I could use a plastic fork as a home defense weapon. Doesn't mean it's the most reliable or effective choice.
Earlier in this thread, I believe I said if you plan on counting on your plinker-grade AR, you're fooling yourself. Having blind faith in a low-tier gun is very different from making an informed decision to use the weapon anyway due to circumstances.
This argument goes round and round in circles. I think the clincher, though, is that people can't help but bring price into the discussion, but can't seem to do so realistically.
Look at who purchases these rifles, where they buy them, and how much they pay for them. You see it over and over again.... some guy you know is talking about buying an AR. You make some recommendations, explain some things, same old drill. He goes to the shop and sees Bushmaster, Oly, and DPMS. He fiddle-****s around with them, plonks down money, and walks out with one.
And you know what? Probably 9 times out of 10, for the amount of money he paid for that rifle he could have bought any servicable lower and a nice BCM upper. Gun store prices generally suck - so "this is a good gun for my budget" really doesn't have anything to do with this. They ended up with a DPMS or Oly because they weren't willing to wait a week to have something better delivered, or because he doesn't know how to use that there interweb, not because it was cheaper.
Smuckatelli
03-18-11, 16:22
From my perspective, some of us are missing the point. I think the most important aspect is keeping communication going with the father.
This thread, and many like it are examples of how people get butt hurt. The worse thing that can happen is the OP shuts himself off from his dad because his dad doesn't appreciate being schooled by his son regarding weapons.
Right now the talks should be lazy laid back days on the range talking about first loves, first cars, feelings and all that other crap that we pretend that we don't care about.
Too many times we sit and wonder 'what if,' destroying a relationship with a parent is something that might not be able to be fixed.
OP, your dad probably would have bought it by know if he wanted it. If you want him to be proud of you, sit down and listen to his stories while you both are on the range. Buy him a rifle for his next birthday but don't tell him how to spend his own money. Stop talking trash about his weapons selections, he probably doesn't appreciate it.
I think smuck covered that pretty well. I would only tell him because I wanted to share with him. It should be done out of love and respect for your Dad. Like I said I would mention it but not nagg him at all. I think protecting the ones we love is important. Protecting the relationship is important too. My 3, 5 & 8 year old teach me stuff all the time.
christcorp
03-18-11, 20:07
You shouldn't try and convince your FIL that he needs something "Better". Maybe he doesn't. As for home defense; an AR wouldn't be my 1st choice, but whatever you use, there's only 1 requirement. Reliability.
I don't give a crap about price. Whether it cost me $1500 or $500. I don't care if it's made by Colt, S&W, or Mattel. I don't care if it's using FMJ, SP, HP, etc... I don't care if it has D&H or Thermold magazines in it. If I've owned a gun for what I consider to be a decent amount of time; if I've shot a shiite load of ammo through it; if it's totally reliable; if it's never failed me (Even if it's only been at the range); and I have total confidence in it; then it will make a fine home defense weapon. And honestly; if someone argues that point and says it wouldn't, because of the name on the rifle; they they obviously don't know anything about what their talking about. And if they throw their "Experience around" as credibility, then they are B.S.ing those listening.
I can understand the argument when buying a brand new rifle. You are taking a "Chance". But if a person's owned a weapon for a number of years; have shot a considerable amount of ammo through it; and they know what it will do; then they AREN'T TAKING A CHANCE. They know whether they can rely on it or not. And that's all that matters. I have a Saiga chambered in .223 that I am 100% confident in. And anyone who would argue with that because it only costs $350 for a saiga, is an idiot. On the other hand, I had a true Colt 1911A1 that I wouldn't even consider pulling out if there was trouble. It was never reliable. So if his father is comfortable and confident in his gun, that's what matters. Anyone disagreeing simply because of the name on the rifle, is simply wrong.
Silver_2325
03-18-11, 20:21
Take him to the range and let him shoot one of your quality ARs with a quality optic. If that doesnt convince him then there is no hope...
Thomas M-4
03-18-11, 21:15
Geez this thread got derailed.
If he doesn't want to get rid of it then don't wast time trying to convince him otherwise. Just bring it up to spec we have a sticky on how to bring up XYZ brand to better specs. Put a H-1 or H-2 buffer in it with a new quality buffer spring, BCM extractor upgrade kit re-stake everything down and have the chamber reamed to true 5.56 spec. Make sure he has good USGI mags with magpul followers. Just doing that little bit will go a long ways to improving it.
christcorp
03-19-11, 00:57
Did I miss something here? He's had the gun for 6 years. I assume he shoots it. Has he had any problems with it? Does it have a problem with ammo? If not, then why do people believe it needs to be fixed in order to make it an effective home defense gun.
As I said previously, when you are "BUYING" a new gun, there are many things to consider. You are taking a risk. "Sometimes, even with a quality brand, you're taking a risk you didn't get a lemon". But once you own a gun; and you've shot it sufficiently; you know if it's reliable and dependable. If it is, then it doesn't matter if it's an olympic, bush, s&w, BCM, or tonka. That's not to say that all, or the majority of a particular brand isn't lower quality. But this one particular firearm seems to be reliable and dependable. Doesn't matter if he got lucky and it's a fluke. Point is; it's reliable and dependable. You don't need to fix something that isn't broken. Especially if the need is for home defense at 30-50 feet away.
I learned from real experience. I carry a colt on duty. My company made the mistake of going cheap and bought bushmasters about 2 years ago. I can tell you from exp that i would never again trust my life behind a bushy. I personally broke Two of them during stress fire. It was something like 8 were broken within the first week we put them to the test. We now carry colt's and i couldnt be happier. If your going to use this weapon to defend your life, why would you skimp? get the best you can afford. Our 150+ bushys are now miles rifles.
christcorp
03-19-11, 13:33
I learned from real experience. I carry a colt on duty. My company made the mistake of going cheap and bought bushmasters about 2 years ago. I can tell you from exp that i would never again trust my life behind a bushy. I personally broke Two of them during stress fire. It was something like 8 were broken within the first week we put them to the test. We now carry colt's and i couldnt be happier. If your going to use this weapon to defend your life, why would you skimp? get the best you can afford. Our 150+ bushys are now miles rifles.
The OP isn't talking about "Purchasing a Weapon" and all the things you need to take into consideration. He's talking about a weapon that is already on hand; has already been shot; already has experience using. In this scenario, ALL PRE-PURCHASE CONSIDERATIONS go out the window. Your experiences with a bushmaster mean absolutely nothing when speaking about 1 particular gun/serial number. All manufacturers make an individual great gun; and all manufacturers make a lemon. If this particular; individual; serial number gun that his father in law owns is reliable, dependable, and he is confident in it; then it doesn't matter if it's a bushmaster, colt, S&W, or made by Hasbro. This one particular gun can be totally satisfactory for home defense.
All the arguments about certain manufacturers, risks, taking a chance, etc... are all valid arguments when in the process of purchasing a weapon. But if a weapon is already on hand; already has experience; already has a track record; etc... then such arguments are totally meaningless. I have more than 2000 rounds through a 9mm Hi-Point pistol (Price=$159). You can give all the anecdotal evidence and examples you want about Hi-Point. But this particular 9mm C9 Hi-Point; serial number: XXXXX; with 2000+ rounds through it; has proven to be 100% reliable and dependable. So for that reason, I have no problem with it in my truck, garage, camping, in a spare bedroom, etc... for a self defense gun. And anyone who would argue against this INDIVIDUAL GUN'S ability to reliably and dependably serve as a self defense weapon, doesn't understand performance at all. They only understand "BRAND NAMES. And that is very narrow minded.
Again; all the arguments against a Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, or ANY brand during the "SHOPPING PHASE" are totally legitimate. But a gun that's already bough, been used, has a history and track record of being reliable/dependable, etc...; such arguments have NO VALIDITY.
Now; if the OP wants to say that his FIL's gun DOES HAVE PROBLEMS!!!! Then great; whole new ball game. But he has no reason to believe that it's been anything but reliable according to the person who actually OWNS IT. Not trying to dog you trizz, or silver, or anyone else. But "Pre-Sale" arguments against a brand that's already got a track record don't hold any water.
This thread has run it's course and it's up to the OP now.
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