PDA

View Full Version : Usefullness of a Laser on an AR?



toddackerman
09-20-07, 20:45
I'm posting this here because it's not intended to be a discussion about a Laser product, but the viability of using a Laser in a tatical situation.

So my question is two-fold....

1. Do you believe that a laser for general civilian use/ home defense is a good tactical tool to have on your AR. Is it necessary? Why, or why not?

2. Do you currently have a laser on your AR, or have you ever had one on your AR?

I run an EOTech 512 "F" series, and a SF 9V Millenium 962 light, so I am prepared for low light situations, but I have found that it's really, really easy and fast to hit with a Laser in the dark, as I'm sure many of you have expereienced with the Laser pistol grips.

For information purposes. I have an OTAL, in a LaRue Mount with a tape switch on my TD VFG. My light is in a LaRue offset mount that I operate with my weak thumb off the VFG.

My concern...I think I have too much on the rifle, and that it may over complicate things in a real fight. I.e., what button to hit...or not hit? Thinking about selling it all, which will be the second time I have bought and sold a laser for my AR.

What say you?

Thanks for your constructive inputs!

Tack

Pat_Rogers
09-21-07, 07:23
I'm posting this here because it's not intended to be a discussion about a Laser product, but the viability of using a Laser in a tatical situation.

So my question is two-fold....
I will broadly assume that you are talking about a visible laser???

1. Do you believe that a laser for general civilian use/ home defense is a good tactical tool to have on your AR. Is it necessary? Why, or why not?
Yes
That depends on your level of training/ competence
See above
2. Do you currently have a laser on your AR, or have you ever had one on your AR?
Yes- multiple

I run an EOTech 512 "F" series, and a SF 9V Millenium 962 light, so I am prepared for low light situations, but I have found that it's really, really easy and fast to hit with a Laser in the dark, as I'm sure many of you have expereienced with the Laser pistol grips.
Not bad- but remember that you will have to access those tiny and difficult to reach "on" button to activate the RDS. I run Aimpoints on most of my guns- i do not ever turn them off)


For information purposes. I have an OTAL, in a LaRue Mount with a tape switch on my TD VFG. My light is in a LaRue offset mount that I operate with my weak thumb off the VFG.

My concern...I think I have too much on the rifle, and that it may over complicate things in a real fight. I.e., what button to hit...or not hit? Thinking about selling it all, which will be the second time I have bought and sold a laser for my AR.
A very distinct possibility. Proper initial training and sustainment training is the key

What say you?

Thanks for your constructive inputs!

Tack
Consider that a vis laser is a supplement rather then a substitute for other conventional sighting systems. It is extremely useful from asymetrical shooting positions, or when shooting from a moving platform, at a moving platform (or a combination of both) as well as under other specific circumstances.
Most who own guns have very little time behind it in low light. Fewer still understand the dynamics of fighting a gun in low light- that is painfully apparent when reading some posts.
Fewer still have time with vis laser.
When you consider that probably less then 5% of the gun owning population has any training at all, you can see the problems.
Hope this helps Todd!

toddackerman
09-21-07, 09:05
Pat,

Thanks so much for your expert input!

Tack

Pat_Rogers
09-21-07, 09:39
You're Welcome Todd.
FWIW- I have vis lasers on those pistols i carry, and on those carbines that i use for teaching.

markm
09-21-07, 11:03
I'm not a big fan of the visible lasers personally.

I guess I'm a product of the instructors that I've trained under. So lasers and optics are not really found on any of my fighting carbeans.

The thing with the laser is that if you have more than just yourself beaming, you need to make sure you know which laser is yours. Otherwise you get several shooters on a threat wiggling their gun to find out which beam is theirs. I know in the home D role, it may just be you. But something to be mindful of.

Patrick Aherne
09-21-07, 11:38
Lasers are a tool. They work real well when you are wearing an NBC protective mask, or when you are using techniques to effectively shorten the carbine in entries and the like.

When my agency ran 92Fs with CTC lasers, our night qual scores went up, across the board.

Visible lasers can also help you in dry practice; they make it real easy to see poor trigger control.

I place my order of importance for accessories on a rifle like so: 1) sling, 2) light, 3) optics, 4) laser, mag carriers, etc.

I would be more concerned about your Eotech than the laser. I have had a number crap out on me. My Aimpoint and Compact ACOGs are much more reliable.

If I were you, I would keep the laser because you might not be able to turn the Eotech on in time. Just practice, with an UNLOADED carbine (hopefully you have purchased a safety device like safe-stix), activating the laser and checking out the angles in your house. Do this lighted and with the lights out.

Remember, if you walk along with that beam on all the time, everyone around a corner or in another room will know there's something with a laser attached over yonder.

Practice illuminating with the light and laser at the same time, then moving. Hard to do in most small houses.

toddackerman
09-21-07, 12:15
Good input Pat. Thanks!

Tack

Pat_Rogers
09-21-07, 12:49
halfgod- your comments are disturbingly common. In Memphis a few weeks ago two guys had fixed stock A2's, gooseneck Aimpoint rails and carry straps. Both stated that "their" instructors liked/ didn't like.
One was a former student of mine from a long time ago. He has never had any experience, so his comments about what works/ not works are limited to feed back from students (which can be good or bad) and conjecture.

The other instructor may be stuck in another decade.
(they both requested info on how to have a more useful gun by the end of the class.

We know maybe 1000 times more about fighting with guns now then before 9/11.
We knew maybe 100,000 times more then before 1983.
We knew maybe 1,000,000 more then we knew in WW2

The point is this. We need to be able to kill those POS more efficiently.
The optic is a force multiplier, and assists in that.
The IR laser also assists in that. The white light also assists in that. The vis laser also assists in that
The tactical sling also assists in that.

I carried iron sighted, wood and steel guns in combat. I would not want to do that now.

You may need to seek out some other instructors who have more relevant experience.:D

Pat Ahearne is correct. The Aimpoint is the most prolific and useful RDS out there. The EO works. The Aimpoint is (subjectively and otherwise) better.

markm
09-21-07, 13:32
The point is this. We need to be able to kill those POS more efficiently.
The optic is a force multiplier, and assists in that.
The IR laser also assists in that. The white light also assists in that. The vis laser also assists in that
The tactical sling also assists in that.

I can definitely agree on the IR laser, White light, and Tac sling. Those have painfully obvious advantages.

With the Aimdots and such, my near sighted eyes blurr the dot to the point that I'm not confident in making a 50 yard head shot with 100% confidence.

With Vis lasers it just gets too complex for me. I'm not good at thinking about multiple systems... especially under stress. I'll be lucky to remember the light, charging handle, and trigger.... let alone another button or pressure pad for a laser. That's just me.... I don't multitask extremely well!

I have been considering doing 1 AR with the intention of adding an Aimpoint. I'm a humble and professional student and always ready to be exposed to different or better ways... But I've never been thru a class or any event where I felt that I was at a disadvantage for not having an RDS. If it ever got to the point where the instructor said "Alright. Make safe, and let's go check your targets" and I found that I was being outshot by the Dot guys, I'd definitely be whipping the credit card out.

Pat_Rogers
09-21-07, 14:04
If you think working switches is complicated, be really glad that you are only punching paper and not dealing with bad guys.

It is not about how a target looks- that is pure marksmanship. It is about much more then that.
Anyone can shoot. And with very little training. some can shoot real well.

If that is all that is in your future, have at it and enjoy. But please refrain from commenting on what others need to do to keep the hate train rolling.

markm
09-21-07, 14:24
If you think working switches is complicated, be really glad that you are only punching paper and not dealing with bad guys.

I'm capable of working a switch.... the light switch is all I feel I need though. My carbean will likely only serve for Home Defense purposes. To me, my carbean is somewhat cumbersome as it is with a mag grip and two lights. There's a lot of items that can be added to the AR, and I picked the ones I feel are most valuable... ammo and light.



It is not about how a target looks- that is pure marksmanship. It is about much more then that.
Anyone can shoot. And with very little training. some can shoot real well.

Agreed. Firing on paper is not the same as engaging an living moving threat.


If that is all that is in your future, have at it and enjoy. But please refrain from commenting on what others need to do to keep the hate train rolling.


I don't recall tellin anyone what to do, and I don't know what the "hate train" is. I just posted my prefereces.

Pat_Rogers
09-21-07, 14:28
Whatever Dude...

markm
09-21-07, 14:48
Whatever Dude...

Well I don't want to derail this guys thread too much... but I am interested in anything constructive...

Do you feel that students who run irons are at a disadvantage to students with RDS or even a Vis laser? (all things equal)

Robb Jensen
09-21-07, 14:51
Demigod,

Consider this a warning

You need to swerve back into your own lane and revisit rule No. 3:

3) Industry Professional – This forum designates a very choice few members with the title of Industry Professional. These are individuals who have extensive first hand experience with the deployment of small arms, execution of proper tactics, or development of the past or current military weapons platforms. Generally speaking, they are well compensated for the information that they provide; and providing information on a free internet forum is a service to us all. Often in an internet forum other posters may not recognize the individual behind certain screen names or have checked their screen name bio. This title is a helpful tool for a viewer to identify such individuals. You are welcome to disagree with their opinion (debate is one of the best ways to fully understand and exchange information), but please take a moment to recognize where their experience and information comes from.

Derek_Connor
09-21-07, 15:00
Do you feel that students who run irons are at a disadvantage to students with RDS or even a Vis laser? (all things equal)

as much time as you spend on the internet degrading others and you do not know the answer to this question? Or are you just asking for Pat's personal opinion?

once again you show your worth...

markm
09-21-07, 15:00
I'm not even in complete disagreement. I'm just responding to the original debate. I'm completely willing to see any perspective on the subject.

My only replies represent what works for me. And I'd love more constructive info on the subject. I'm not claiming that anyone is right or wrong.... just kicking around ideas. :confused:


Or are you just asking for Pat's personal opinion?


Exactly!! He's seen/taught many more classes than I've taken. I want to gain any input possible!

Christ! You'd think I called him an ASS or something.:eek:

Derek_Connor
09-21-07, 15:13
Exactly!! He's seen/taught many more classes than I've taken. I want to gain any input possible!

Christ! You'd think I called him an ASS or something.:eek:


reading is fundamental.




The point is this. We need to be able to kill those POS more efficiently.
The optic is a force multiplier, and assists in that.
The IR laser also assists in that. The white light also assists in that. The vis laser also assists in that
The tactical sling also assists in that.

I carried iron sighted, wood and steel guns in combat. I would not want to do that now.


hopefully you can distract your answer from the underlined segments above.

Renegade
09-21-07, 15:14
At what ranges and light conditions are visible lasers effective on an AR?

Hawkeye
09-21-07, 16:01
Lets keep this one profitable... :)



I always shot with iron sights. When I was young and starting out on AR's, there werent any RDS like Aimpoints. So irons it was. During my time in the Army/Natl Guard, it was all irons. My awards and such were all won with irons.
When I started shooting in defensive oriented competitions, I still ran irons, and hung with, and often beat, guys running various optics. Finally, I broke down and put together one carbine with an Aimpoint on it, just to see how I liked it. I sighted it in, practiced with it, and still didnt feel anything special for it. Still kept shooting irons in defensive matches. Finally decided to force myself to use it in one, and it was a very eye opening experience. I was faster, and more accurate, than I EVER thought I could be. The Aimpoint completely changed things for me.
When I put together my first KISS type carbine for a truck gun, I went with an A1 iron sight setup. It worked, and worked well. But, I found that I was NOT as fast, holding to the same level of accuracy, with it as I was my Aimpoint guns. It was around this time that I noticed having trouble with the front sight being a bit blury on me, and it really showed in a class I was in. I also found that the Aimpoint dot was fuzzier to me than what others described it. Eye Dr. found that I had an astygmatism in my right (dominate) eye. A contact lense in that one eye made things much better. Still, with and without the contact, astygmatism and all, I was CONSISTENTLY more accurate, FASTER, with an Aimpoint than just irons.
I rebuilt the KISS gun I had and put an Aimpoint on it.

My boys are starting with irons. As soon as they have them down, and I feel they have the fundamentals squared away, they will be moving to Aimpoints post haste.

As for lasers, I used to not care for them one way or the other. As of late though, I am begining to see some usefulness.

markm
09-21-07, 16:22
That's the info I was trying to "distract".

I have a lower half of an carbean that is sitting in my safe. As I get around to it, I plan to piece by piece do a flat top with the LMT rear sight and an Aimpoint cowitnessed!

Hawkeye, did you opt for the 4MOA or 2MOA??

My though was that since the dot is somewhat blurry without my glasses, the 2MOA would be better.

KevinB
09-21-07, 16:22
Admittedly my only experience with a vis laser is the Insight 7500 (A PEQ2B with a vis laser).
The vis could go out FAR. I found it (.mil) a good intimidation tool as well.

I know I used to worry about multiple lasers on a tgt - and with the PEQ-2A in a det+ setting it is confusing - but if you are aiming the sytem from muscle memory its not as big an issue -even in a Platoon size setting as one may think. Pattern Generator are a wonderful thing in that respect - and one usually has a pretty good schmick about where you are aiming anyway. The IPIM and Atilla solve that issue with different blink rates if one feels thats an issue.

I have zero experience with lasers in a "lone actor" scenario.

markm
09-21-07, 16:30
but if you are aiming the sytem from muscle memory its not as big an issue -even in a Platoon size setting as one may think.

Do you mean that you can tell which is yours by it being where you "expect" it to be?

toddackerman
09-21-07, 18:13
At what ranges and light conditions are visible lasers effective on an AR?

About 20 yds. Max. in full daylight. Some have been able to see it for 1/2 mile with optics.

Tack

KevinB
09-21-07, 18:21
Yes and no,
WRT IR
Given direction etc one aims at the target, using different techniques (movement, pulse etc) one can tell who is who in the zoo even with similar lasers in a confined area.
If I am somewhat uncertain which is mine - then I default to my perscribed pattern, or crank to high - or flip my pattern genny.

In a vis laser situation you can do the same thing - if you not able to adopt a position you have muscle memory with - but if its in the shoulder you can pretty much known where you are by where you point the weapon.

M4Guru
09-21-07, 20:34
I've heard of soy beans, red beans, lima beans, pinto beans, and even jumping beans. But never carbeans. The strange thing is you had to type CARBINE to even get here.:D

I've never had an issue with me and 10 of my closest buddies pointing PEQ-2As at the same target when steering the "hate train" at it. I never even thought about it til now, actually, so it must not really matter. I would never want to go out hunting at ight without an IR laser.

The visible laser can be great to designate targets for my LBGs who have little to no night vision capability.

On a pistol they are a great training tool/aid for asymmetric shooting positions/intimidator.

markm
09-21-07, 21:01
I've heard of soy beans, red beans, lima beans, pinto beans, and even jumping beans. But never carbeans. The strange thing is you had to type CARBINE to even get here.:D


They're the low carb alternative to the other beans!:D

I guess in certain environments not knowing which laser is yours isn't critical.

Thanks.

Hawkeye
09-21-07, 21:09
That's the info I was trying to "distract".
Hawkeye, did you opt for the 4MOA or 2MOA??

My though was that since the dot is somewhat blurry without my glasses, the 2MOA would be better.

I have both. Best I can advise, is to see if you can find one of each to look at, and see which works the best for your eyes.

John_Wayne777
09-21-07, 21:39
My concern...I think I have too much on the rifle, and that it may over complicate things in a real fight. I.e., what button to hit...or not hit? Thinking about selling it all, which will be the second time I have bought and sold a laser for my AR.

What say you?


Well Pat pretty much knocked the question out of the park....

But the answer to knowing what to use when is training, training, training.

If you learn good techniques and practice them properly, you'll likely be able to do what you need to do.

Pat_Rogers
09-22-07, 10:51
When i was young(er) and ignorant in the reality of emerging technology, i too believed that several shooters using lasers simultaneously might make for a "whose laser is whose" scenario.
Like Kevin and M4Guru, experience and training has shown that to be pretty much of a non issue.

If you are in a stable firing position, you have a pretty valid idea of where your laser is. If you are using a ballistic shield and are not behind the pistol, there may be an issue, but not insurmountable with training.

You can generally assume that those who "teach" without experience may be basing their doctrine on anecdotes, conjecture or what they glean from watching the no history channel or other media representations.

There is reality, and there is discovery channel reality. We can take it to different levels, but you get the point.

taliv
09-22-07, 11:10
Pat, do you have any carbine classes in '08 that will cover shooting with lasers at night?

I'd love to attend something like that.

Last year, I had a decent civvie type gen 3 scope and an unmarked (but amazingly powerful) IR laser. I used them on my AR about a year and a half, but sold them because i came to realize some combination of me and the gear was just flat ineffective.

now that I know people who can tell me what to buy and how to use it, i'm getting a little excited.

Robb Jensen
09-22-07, 12:02
Like I said on another forum:

A well rounded shooter can shoot both irons and things like Aimpoints (my favorite) or EOTech (my fastest)..........it's like kind of like walking vs. running.........it really shouldn't take conscious thought. If it does then you need a lot more training/trigger time IMHO.

Pat_Rogers
09-22-07, 12:08
Pat, do you have any carbine classes in '08 that will cover shooting with lasers at night?

I'd love to attend something like that.

Last year, I had a decent civvie type gen 3 scope and an unmarked (but amazingly powerful) IR laser. I used them on my AR about a year and a half, but sold them because i came to realize some combination of me and the gear was just flat ineffective.

now that I know people who can tell me what to buy and how to use it, i'm getting a little excited.

No open enrollment classes are scheduled. The reality is most who own AR's won't train, and few of them have Vis/ IR lasers.

GotM4- that is a quote worth keeping. Of course, you know what you are talking about, so it makes sense...:p

markm
09-22-07, 12:40
Like I said on another forum:

A well rounded shooter can shoot both irons and things like Aimpoints (my favorite) or EOTech (my fastest)..........it's like kind of like walking vs. running.........it really shouldn't take conscious thought. If it does then you need a lot more training/trigger time IMHO.

Good point. I'm seriously thinking of finishing that lower half I have with an aimpoint over the next year.... KevinB's input has me motivated to try one out.

Probably should have started a separate RDS thread instead of derailing this one so much... but the info is good.

John_Wayne777
09-22-07, 16:47
Pat, do you have any carbine classes in '08 that will cover shooting with lasers at night?

I'd love to attend something like that.


Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn are doing an all low light class that talks about lasers and lights and optics. The folks in the inaugural session said it was awesome. I'm going to session #2 in November.

MX5
09-26-07, 11:30
I agree that visible lasers are an effective supplement to a handgun and they're an effective instructional tool on any weapon. I don't use them on long guns as the RDS addresses my needs there. Thanks and a tip of my hat to both Pats.

taliv
09-26-07, 11:50
Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn are doing an all low light class that talks about lasers and lights and optics. The folks in the inaugural session said it was awesome. I'm going to session #2 in November.

yeah, i've been eyeballing that thread for a few days. I've taken Ken Hackathorn's handgun class before and enjoyed it. Would love to meet Larry Vickers. And as I stated previously, could definitely use some low-light training.

Other than a G2 I carry around in my pocket, I have no flashlights, lasers, etc. If there was overwhelming consensus on what I should buy for the class, I'd probably go. (if there's a spot left) (especially if there's going to be a b-day party on the 10th)