View Full Version : Being able to reach the slide stop - How important?
I'm left handed and taking a Vickers course soon. I can use either a G19 or M&P9, I shoot both guns equally well but prefer the G19.
Reloads aside, am I at a major disadvantage if I cannot easily manipulate the slide stop on my Glock? I thinking of failure drills, perhaps.
Nope, not at all. In fact as a rule of thumb don't use the slide stop.
I'm a rightie and don't use the slide stop at all. In particular on Glocks. Just reach over the slide with your non-shooting hand, grab the rear of the slide between all your fingers and the heal of your palm to release the slide.
IMHO it's the way to go. It's a course motor skill you can do under stress.
John_Wayne777
03-18-11, 07:31
I'm left handed and taking a Vickers course soon. I can use either a G19 or M&P9, I shoot both guns equally well but prefer the G19.
Reloads aside, am I at a major disadvantage if I cannot easily manipulate the slide stop on my Glock? I thinking of failure drills, perhaps.
Part of what you will learn in LAV's course is how to deal with being wrong-handed when it comes to running the Glock.
As a bonus, you can ask LAV to give you his read on the "fine motor skill" debate about using the slide stop to release the slide from lock. ;-)
Part of what you will learn in LAV's course is how to deal with being wrong-handed when it comes to running the Glock.
As a bonus, you can ask LAV to give you his read on the "fine motor skill" debate about using the slide stop to release the slide from lock. ;-)
And please take video for us :no: As JW said (who is remarkably consistently on point) after you spend some time with LAV you will have a firm grasp on how to overcome your disadvantage without having to use HOT... Ask him, don't be afraid to pull him aside and ask him for help. He is a great dude and IMHO one of the best instructors in the industry. You will be in great hands and will walk away with a LOT to work on after your class is finished.
TAKE NOTES AND WRITE THINGS DOWN! Depending on your skill level you could be drinking from a fire hose and you WILL forget things if you dont take notes. IMHO any serious student should take notes at class...
Nope, not at all. In fact as a rule of thumb don't use the slide stop.
I'm a rightie and don't use the slide stop at all. In particular on Glocks. Just reach over the slide with your non-shooting hand, grab the rear of the slide between all your fingers and the heal of your palm to release the slide.
IMHO it's the way to go. It's a course motor skill you can do under stress.
this. and in addition, most of the time when i slam my mag in there the slide drops with it.
Call_me_Tom
03-18-11, 10:27
I'd be more concerned about the slide release getting in the way. As in pushing up on it when firing. It happens to folks with extended slide releases during competition shoots.
NCPatrolAR
03-18-11, 10:46
most of the time when i slam my mag in there the slide drops with it.
Never count on the gun auto-forwarding.
NCPatrolAR
03-18-11, 10:48
In fact as a rule of thumb don't use the slide stop.
Thats a matter of personal preference really. I'm a huge advocate of using the slide stop whenever possible.
this. and in addition, most of the time when i slam my mag in there the slide drops with it.
Stop this shit! Because you guys use HOT does NOT mean that its the most effective technique in charging your weapon. It simply means thats what you do. Who taught both of you guys this technique?
Learn both and then determine what technique works best for YOU.
Kyle Defoor wrote about going from HOT to SR below. If you guys (like the OP is obviously doing by seeking out training) are truly interested in learning, then take the time to research what the top instructors out there teach and WHY they teach and use it.
I just spoke to Looey briefly this morning about this thread. I'm under a bit of a time crunch, so forgive me if this is repeatative, I just can't sift through the whole thread right now.
Firstly, I do not use the slingshot method anymore. I switched over permanantly around summer of 2005. The reason is fourfold.
Number one- I now grip all handguns with my strong hand thumb laid over on my support hand, just a smidge. This is mainly for Sigs, as the release lever is so far to the rear. I keep it the same on all pistols so that I always get slide lock. We have to shoot different pistols sometimes weekly. Bottom line is its simpler, and faster.
Number two- I've measured the size of an average mag release button and an average slide release button. The slide release is at a minimum 3X bigger. I no longer buy the argument that you can hit the mag release, and then .005 seconds later you lose your mind and can't find the slide release. Doesn't hold water.
Number three- Around 2005, when I started shooting with Bill Go a lot getting ready for IDPA/IPSC type functions, I realized that my biggest weakness was emergency reloads. I simply could not keep up, even though I would be ahead on hits. I can?/could slingshot as fast as I think is possible just because of the fact that's what the Teams do, but, I can use the slide release and at a minimum its .65 sec faster.
Number four - As far as I know, John (Shaw) started this whole thing in the early eighties when the Teams started going there. All the old timers have told me that it was mainly because at that time we didn't spend a lot of time on pistols, flight gloves were the tightest glove around, and water/cold (remember, this is pre-9/11) on shipboardings were the biggest worry in regards to reloads. In comparision, Jerry (Barnhardt) would cringe when the training department at each Team, especially The Command, would ask him to teach it to us that way.
I equate this to bypassing the bolt release on an M4. Just not the best idea. We shoot/teach here more than most (96,000 rds for me last year) and see it all on a weekly basis, and I'm a firm beleiver in using the slide release now, no matter how you do it (support thumb on 1911, master thumb on others)
As far as what to teach, it depends on the weapon (1911's are different), and the desire, physical limitations and experience of the student. In the end, just like gear, simpler, less movement is going to rule.
Hope this helps,
Kyle
_________
I'm left handed and taking a Vickers course soon. I can use either a G19 or M&P9, I shoot both guns equally well but prefer the G19.
Reloads aside, am I at a major disadvantage if I cannot easily manipulate the slide stop on my Glock? I thinking of failure drills, perhaps.
What class are you taking and where?
I don't think you'll have to worry about advantage or disadvantage (it's a class, not a competition). Show up and do what you're used to, and if you learn to do it a different way in class and the new method works for you, then train with it.
this. and in addition, most of the time when i slam my mag in there the slide drops with it.
that's pretty chancey to rely on.
not a verbatim quote, but what I wrote in my notes from a Vickers basic pistol class:
"anyone that tells you that the overhand slide rack is THE way to perform a reload....stay the F___ away".
circumstances can vary, but in generall using a slide release is the better option. Much faster, and less prone to induce a stoppage.
What class are you taking and where?
I don't think you'll have to worry about advantage or disadvantage (it's a class, not a competition). Show up and do what you're used to, and if you learn to do it a different way in class and the new method works for you, then train with it.
I wont go into the tired mantra of train like you fight but well...train like you fight.
If the class has a component covering all manner of malfunction clearing then why come to the class with a gun that is going to inhibit your ability to learn those techniques?
Now, if the student carries, competes or works with a G19 then he would be doing himself a disservice in not taking that gun to the class so he could apply those techniques to his chosen weapons platform.
If clearing malfunctions couldnt be done on a glock with your reaction hand no one would be carrying Glocks so to the OP i think you're over thinking this one.
Choose whichever gun you enjoy using more, carrying more, shooting more and run with it and dont look back.
Also, the HOT method versus Slide release method is about consistency, its not about gross motor skills versus fine. I really do wish people would drop this tired argument.
Pick whichever works better for you and roll with it, there is no universal "better" way.
Part of what you will learn in LAV's course is how to deal with being wrong-handed when it comes to running the Glock.
Is there a thread or a link with more info where I could possibly read about "wrong handed" manipulation? Because I certainly am, but I've managed so far.
Thanks.
that's pretty chancey to rely on.
not a verbatim quote, but what I wrote in my notes from a Vickers basic pistol class:
"anyone that tells you that the overhand slide rack is THE way to perform a reload....stay the F___ away".
circumstances can vary, but in generall using a slide release is the better option. Much faster, and less prone to induce a stoppage.
Yeah, but what does he know? I mean come on, its the internet. I much prefer to get my firearm TTP's from those who quote "this" ...
What possibly could a SEAL and a Unit guy know?
John_Wayne777
03-18-11, 13:23
Is there a thread or a link with more info where I could possibly read about "wrong handed" manipulation? Because I certainly am, but I've managed so far.
Thanks.
I don't think that there's a particular thread that sums it all up, unfortunately.
I can say that one of the recommendations I've heard from Mr. Vickers (and others) is for a lefty to install the extended Glock slide stop....or, even better, the new Vickers designed Glock slide stop....and to then use the trigger finger to operate the slide lock/release as needed for reloads or malfunction clearance, etc.
Also, the HOT method versus Slide release method is about consistency, its not about gross motor skills versus fine. I really do wish people would drop this tired argument.
Agreed.
Folks, for the record, the concept of "fine motor skills" was conceived of in the study of human development to describe refined motor functions in developing children like the ability to grasp and manipulate objects with the hands and fingers. How it became a staple of those in the "tactical" world who seem to think that you can operate a mag release and a trigger but not a slide release is anyone's guess. Suffice it to say that while it's true that under extreme stress you may experience some degradation in manual dexterity, it is not true that you will lose all fine motor skills or else you couldn't operate a firearm at all.
The extent to which your manual dexterity will be lost is also often overblown. If you dedicate deliberate effort into training to perform a certain task under stress, you will probably be able to perform that task under stress. This is an entirely different phenomenon than attempting an unfamiliar task under stress. This is as provably true as anything possibly can be, and is the foundation of all training ranging from training a short-order cook to training astronauts for missions in space. Our brains have an enormous capability to be programmed to deal efficiently with repetitive tasks to the point where they require absolutely no thought. In psychology it is referred to as implicit or sensorimotor memory. With the proper practice it is possible to ingrain skills useful for combat as deeply as the skills we ingrain for locomotion...aka, walking, running, etc.
The notion that under extreme stress someone will be able to draw a handgun and use the sights and trigger with sufficient precision to place accurate fire on a threat and yet somehow not be able to use the very same hands and very same digits to effectively use a slide release is absolute nonsense. It is, however, oft-repeated nonsense...and oft repeated nonsense is frequently elevated to the status of an article of faith that receives zero critical analysis of the type seen in Mr. Defoor's quote above. As such it becomes "conventional wisdom" which in many cases is just a code word for tidbits of "wisdom" that are unburdened by any link to reality.
I'll say again for the sake of clarity that under extreme stress you will do what you have trained to do. If you properly train to use the slide release to drop the slide from lock, you'll be able to do it under stress. If you train to use the overhand or slingshot methods of releasing the slide from lock, you'll be able to do those under stress as well. If you don't train to do any of them, you're pretty well screwed because, as I mentioned before, attempting to perform unfamiliar tasks under extreme stress generally isn't very successful.
Those arguing that under stress you won't be able to operate a slide release when fractions of a second before you were presumably able to orchestrate a mag change are wrong. Some of them may mean well and may only be repeating bad information they were given by a pseudo-authoritative source, but they are still wrong. Some of them may throw kettlebells around in the desert and think that they are some sort of warrior superman who exists on a higher plane than anyone else teaching guns, but they are still wrong.
not a verbatim quote, but what I wrote in my notes from a Vickers basic pistol class:
"anyone that tells you that the overhand slide rack is THE way to perform a reload....stay the F___ away".
circumstances can vary, but in generall using a slide release is the better option. Much faster, and less prone to induce a stoppage.
Hmmmm. I heard that Hackathorn teaches running the slide, as opposed to the slide release button. Maybe you should call him out on it, or avoid him altogether?
Many teach racking the slide with the idea it gives you an extra 1/2" or so of slide travel, and stronger spring pressure, to ram the round home in case one is slightly oversized or you have a dirty chamber. They might be thinking combat vs. competition shooting.
Does it help that much? I'm no expert, and I don't elevate other human beings to God status either.
JW...
Yet another fantastic post.
Well said brother.
With Glocks I use the rack method as I don't run extended slide releases, and I have proven to myself I can easily miss the stock slide release at speed/under pressure/wearing gloves, with wet hands....
I'm OK either way really.
I do note that many of my troops who are wrong handed have factory extended slide releases on their Glocks at work, that I installed, to facilitate reloads, for locking the slide open when needed, etc.
I have seen the Glock extended slide releases cause right handed shooters many issues, not so the leftys.
JW...
Yet another fantastic post.
Well said brother.
Sure wish he would post more... This is just par for the course with JW. I think he is even funnier in person especially if you catch him with a full stomach after Cracker Barrel... :p
Sure wish he would post more... This is just par for the course with JW. I think he is even funnier in person especially if you catch him with a full stomach after Cracker Barrel... :p
I havent had the pleasure of meeting him in person yet, hoping to eventually get out to a class that hes in so i can shake his hand and thank him for being the voice of reason.
John_Wayne777
03-18-11, 14:26
Sure wish he would post more... This is just par for the course with JW. I think he is even funnier in person especially if you catch him with a full stomach after Cracker Barrel... :p
You are probably the only person on the planet who believes I don't spend enough time on the internet.
Great thread and input!
One of the biggest lessons I took away from a class with Kyle Defoor last year was this very topic - use the slide release. thanks for including his quote. That's now the way I train and shoot.
I havent had the pleasure of meeting him in person yet, hoping to eventually get out to a class that hes in so i can shake his hand and thank him for being the voice of reason.
I will simple say he is a very solid dude, great to train with and funny as hell, especially when he tells stories... And he shoots kinda good.:D
You need to come north a little and run some classes up this way... It would be great to train with you. Hoping he makes an appearance at Blackwater in June and Nov :D JW... Thats a hint.:cool:
You are probably the only person on the planet who believes I don't spend enough time on the internet.
Nope, not enough! We need MOAR!:haha:
Hmmmm. I heard that Hackathorn teaches running the slide, as opposed to the slide release button. Maybe you should call him out on it, or avoid him altogether?
Many teach racking the slide with the idea it gives you an extra 1/2" or so of slide travel, and stronger spring pressure, to ram the round home in case one is slightly oversized or you have a dirty chamber. They might be thinking combat vs. competition shooting.
Does it help that much? I'm no expert, and I don't elevate other human beings to God status either.
Think you missed the point. Not that HOT or slingshot can't be valid ways of performing reloads. They are not however THE way, as in "THE ONE TRUE WAY".
I've used Glocks and M&Ps where the slide release could not drop the slide (even with 2 fingers). If I was stuck carrying those guns, I'd use HOT too. If I had to carry an unfamilar gun I hadn't practised with....I'd probably rack the slide there too.
And yes, I've seen video of Hackathorn using HOT (with an M&P). And I'd train with him in a hearbeat, never have, long wanted to. Doubt he'd blow a gasket if he caught somebody using the slide release.
TwoSqueeze
03-18-11, 14:38
Hmmmm. I heard that Hackathorn teaches running the slide, as opposed to the slide release button. Maybe you should call him out on it, or avoid him altogether?
Darr,
When LAV said that about the slingshot method he as not saying stay away from anyone who teaches that he was saying stay away from any instructor that says it is the "only" way it should be done. LAV is quoted in the class I attended as saying "Stay away from any instructor that teaches with absolutes outside of the four safety rules, those are always absolutes."
A good instructor will show you the way that works for them and the way that they believe works the best but will never tell you that it is the only way a task should be accomplished.
Cheers,
-TS
ETA: Damn LHQuattro, beat me to it.
A good instructor will show you the way that works for them and the way that they believe works the best but will never tell you that it is the only way a task should be accomplished.
Cheers,
-TS
ETA: Damn LHQuattro, beat me to it.
Well put, and I know Vickers and Hackathorn are great friends. I know neither would say, in this case, one method is the "only" method.
John_Wayne777
03-18-11, 14:48
Well put, and I know Vickers and Hackathorn are great friends. I know neither would say, in this case, one method is the "only" method.
Correct. Both will teach you that different people/weapons/situations may call for different approaches.
On a Glock where on a good day you struggle to hit the almost vestigial slide release, it may make sense for you to use the overhand/slingshot method. On a Beretta 92/M9 where use of the overhand/slingshot method runs a significant risk of unintentionally engaging the manual safety it's probably best to use the slide release whenever possible.
Differences in physiology also need to be factored in.
The problem only arises when someone insists that there is only one way to do it and that only one way will work reliably under stress. Those guys are out of their lane.
Hmmmm. I heard that Hackathorn teaches running the slide, as opposed to the slide release button. Maybe you should call him out on it, or avoid him altogether?
Numerous people in this thread have trained with Hack, myself included. From what I remember, he advocated HOT for guns with small slide stops which people had trouble reaching (genericly Glocks). Ken most certainly used the slide stop on his 1911 though, as it's larger and easier for him to use.
To sumarize, Ken recommended the most reliable way of doing things, given what the shooter has to work with (hands and firearm in question).
Many teach racking the slide with the idea it gives you an extra 1/2" or so of slide travel, and stronger spring pressure, to ram the round home in case one is slightly oversized or you have a dirty chamber. They might be thinking combat vs. competition shooting.
Those people are retarded.
Does it help that much? I'm no expert, and I don't elevate other human beings to God status either.
Most people here don't, we just pay attention to guys with experience to know about these things, better than us.
Great input guys, thanks.
Being left handed, I've always used the slingshot method as it works on every gun for me, though it sounds like I may learn something better in LAV's class. I was mainly concerned about failure drills where I may need to lock the slide to the rear which usually requires me to change hands. I just didn't want the gun to get in the way of the training but it sounds like a non issue.
What class are you taking and where?
Level 1 Handgun April 2-3 in Carthage, NC.
I can say that one of the recommendations I've heard from Mr. Vickers (and others) is for a lefty to install the extended Glock slide stop....or, even better, the new Vickers designed Glock slide stop....and to then use the trigger finger to operate the slide lock/release as needed for reloads or malfunction clearance, etc.
That sounds like a good option. Though it doesn't look like I can get the Vickers piece before the class.
NCPatrolAR
03-18-11, 14:58
When it comes to left hand shooters, Glocks, and slide stops; LAV recommends use of the factory extended slide stop versus the new TD slide stop.
John_Wayne777
03-18-11, 15:01
That sounds like a good option. Though it doesn't look like I can get the Vickers piece before the class.
In your case I would purchase the Glock factory extended slide stop and use that as NCPatrolAR mentioned above.
When it comes to left hand shooters, Glocks, and slide stops; LAV recommends use of the factory extended slide stop versus the new TD slide stop.
Not asking you to speak for Larry, but can you elaborate as to why?
Not asking you to speak for Larry, but can you elaborate as to why?
I'm not LAV, but it's likely because they can reach it with the trigger finger due to size and design of that part.
I know it works for my leftys.
Never count on the gun auto-indexing.
lol, i dont. it just happens a lot. :agree:
Sorry, forgot to add get the gun in your "work space" when you reload. I breezed through the thread, sorry if someone already brought it up.
By work space I mean get the handgun up in your peripheral vision as you reload so you can see your target yet also see what you're doing.
And to add to what others have said, there is no one/right way to do things. No matter who recommends what YOU need to test drive the technique. Using a timer is a good way to objectively measure the success of a particular technique.
Have fun.
One of the most proficient Glock shooters I've met, who is a lefty, a member here, and an endorsed VSM regional instructor, showed a method where he releases slide stop lever with his right hand going underneath the frame, while he is reacquiring right hand grip position. He does it lightning fast. It is generally considered slightly more reliable than using left hand's trigger finger, slightly slower, but still quite faster than HOT. This is how I do it when I practice with my Glock left-handed; try it - you may like it.
One of the most proficient Glock shooters I've met, who is a lefty, a member here, and an endorsed VSM regional instructor, showed a method where he releases slide stop lever with his right hand going underneath the frame, while he is reacquiring right hand grip position. He does it lightning fast. It is generally considered slightly more reliable than using left hand's trigger finger, slightly slower, but still quite faster than HOT. This is how I do it when I practice with my Glock left-handed; try it - you may like it.
I've seen that as well, and several of the left handed students that I have shown it to use that method.
It can be very fast.
When I first started shooting handguns I was taught to use the slide release. It wasn't until I started shooting DoS quals where they were preaching grab the slide method.
My reload times are slower doing it and I will always use the slide lock/release whenever possible.
Bottom line is do whats comfortable to you. Hitting the slide stop/release with a finger is a fine motor skill, that under stress, maybe even wearing gloves may not be as easy as just using the hand over method. Hand over method is a gross motor skill that may be alot easier under stress. I try to use the same skill sets on any handgun im using. Muscle memory is real impotant. I take into consideration what the Pros like LAV have to say, but i do what i can easily perform safe and fast under stress.
Guns-up.50
03-19-11, 08:43
I switched to the s/r several years ago, it seems to flow better and more fluently for me . I try to do the same technique for all pistols wether it be a glock or 1911 it doesnt matter. If i had trouble hitting the s/r i would switch it out(not change my technique for one gun). the new vickers s/r looks to be modeled after the M&P. Do what works for you, best of luck
-Justin
Bottom line is do whats comfortable to you. Hitting the slide stop/release with a finger is a fine motor skill, that under stress, maybe even wearing gloves may not be as easy as just using the hand over method. Hand over method is a gross motor skill that may be alot easier under stress. I try to use the same skill sets on any handgun im using. Muscle memory is real impotant. I take into consideration what the Pros like LAV have to say, but i do what i can easily perform safe and fast under stress.
Take the time to read the thread before chiming in... The highlighted area is complete BS. Read JW's post, he does a great job explaining it and if you don't like what JW had to post read my post where I quoted Kyle Defoor and his thoughts.
This type of internet rhetoric has to stop, all it does is to continue to regurgitate the myth.
tfltackdriver
03-19-11, 10:48
Take the time to read the thread before chiming in... The highlighted area is complete BS. Read JW's post, he does a great job explaining it and if you don't like what JW had to post read my post where I quoted Kyle Defoor and his thoughts.
This type of internet rhetoric has to stop, all it does is to continue to regurgitate the myth.
Personally, I don't care a hoot what technique someone else chooses to use. I think it's foolish to attempt to disregard the difference between fine and gross motor skills, especially if you've ever experienced trying to fight against three million years of evolution and a tremendous adrenaline dump when instantly confronted with a life-or-death self-defense situation.
I can't adequately explain it. It's sort of like operating your body by remote control, poorly. Training and training under serious stress will improve the outcome, but I don't believe anything will ever get it exactly right.
Do you have any idea where the terms fine and gross motor skills come from? perhaps you should do a bit of research before simply repeating what you have heard over and over again.
JW covered this very well. The quote from Kyle Defore also makes the point. If you can activate the mag release why can you suddenly not activate the slide stop? Three million years of evolution? Hell we've only been shooting handguns for about 200 or so...maybe a bit of training is in order. If humans were as incapable of functioning as some folks like to claim nobody would be able to fly a plane in combat or even race a motorcycle.
If you don't want to use the slide stop, DON'T! But don't claim that it's because of some defect in human physiology.
I teach one of 3 methods and leave it up to the shooter. Overhand, slingshot and slide stop / release. I have been to numerous schools that I would call "classic" defensive type of mindsets where they pushed only the overhand or slingshot and preached the fine / gross skills arguments, which I personally find to be BS when it pertains to this particular topic. I readily admit that I push the overhand release method as my crowd is wearing gloves.
I acknowledge arguments for using an overhand technique, such as slide stop size or location, gloved hands or just shooter preference. Also for lefties, the slingshot might be a preference to keep things inline with malfunction manipulations.
I personally use the slide stop when possible and tend to cut off the index and thumb portions of my gloves. I train enough on various types of weapons that I really don't get confused in which method I will use, even when wearing gloves with full fingers. I will say that I am far far faster with the slide stop / release with no less consistency than an overhand type method. I can also see the merit to keeping the same movement that can be translated to loading, reloading and malfunctions, but again that is to keep things simple and consistent but is also a direct relation to training.
It basically boils down to shooters proficiency, training and preference. I will very much agree with the arguments which are attempting to debunk the fine vs gross motor skills and how they apply to this topic. If you are not limited by shooting hand, slide stop type etc, it is purely a training issue and not a limitation due to body mechanics under stress.
GLOCKMASTER
03-19-11, 13:05
This thread has drifted into another this is how you're suppose to release the slide thread. It has already been discussed enough here.
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