View Full Version : Non-US citizen Training in the US
Hi all,
as this is my first post, I'll fisrt introduce myself.
My name is Paulo Marcondes, I'm brazilian, 33. I currently live in Brazil.
I am thinking about going to the US and enroll in a defensive handgun, maybe shotgun training class.
I am an absolute begginer to firearms. I think I know how to handle one safely, but that is subject to further scrutiny.
I did take some very basic course here, from a guy that was former LE firearms instructor in Rio de Janeiro.
Last february, I went to see a friend in Utah, then one day I went to Rangemasters of Utah and had some trigger time with an M4 and a Kimber .45.
My wife asked if that was not enough... No need to answer that =]
In short, my question is: is there any company or instructor that would take as a student? I mean, I see here and there mentions to "due to ITAR regulations... only US citizens..."
Bear in mind that due to current laws here, it is getting increasingly difficult to obtain a firearm legally (illegally, of course is asways easy - they say). So, in this current state of affairs, is also difficult to get good information, and in turn to know who are good trainers.
This is why I am looking for a training class in the US. I know that brings additional challenges: going into a course with gear I am unfamiliar with, getting ammo... Then, getting back to Brazil and adapt the training to the gear I have...
That may as well be a bad idea. I am willing to take advice against going too.
ITAR is the big road block on that, unfortunately.
Non US citizens who are getting training here in the US from legitimate trainers and facilities are members of their gov't organizations.
I don't know if there is a work around for that for a foreign national who is not sponsored by his home gov't.
Unless you're a permanent resident [or have dual US-Brazilian citizenship], you cannot purchase firearms here, so this would be the first hurdle. I believe - but not 100% sure - that you can handle and shoot one legally if gun's owner is with you. I don't know if you can rent one.
As far as training is concerned, I think this would be at a discretion of individual trainer/school. I have looked at ITAR awhile ago, and I couldn't find anything about training but I didn't dig deep.
Unless you're a permanent resident [or have dual US-Brazilian citizenship], you cannot purchase firearms here, so this would be the first hurdle. I believe - but not 100% sure - that you can handle and shoot one legally if gun's owner is with you. I don't know if you can rent one.
As far as training is concerned, I think this would be at a discretion of individual trainer/school. I have looked at ITAR awhile ago, and I couldn't find anything about training but I didn't dig deep.
ITAR is an acronym that stands for International Traffic in Arms Regulations (22 CFR §§120-130) that are administered by the U.S. Department of State through the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) under authority of the Arms Export Control Act (22 USC §2778). ITAR places strict controls on the export of "defense articles" and "defense services." Defense articles include any item, software, or technical data on the United States Munitions List (USML). Defense services include the furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether or not in the United States, with respect to defense articles, and the furnishing of any technical data associated with a defense article. Any defense article, service, or related technical data found to be on the USML requires an export license to be exported; i.e., given to a foreign person, whether or not in the United States.
Defense Service:
1. The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United
States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing or use of defense articles;
2. The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data controlled on the USML (see 22 CFR §120.10), whether in the United States or abroad; or
3. Military training of foreign units and forces, regular and irregular, including formal or
informal instruction of foreign persons in the United States or abroad or by correspondence courses, technical, educational, or information publications and media of all kinds, training aid, orientation, training exercise, and military advice. (See also 22 CFR §124.1.)
ITAR references training. Apparently they do make a distinction between weapons-handling and tactics, but the tolerance for the kind of State Department scrutiny of that difference might represent is going to vary from course to course. I'd recommend the OP start calling around. I'd probably start with MagPul or one of the other big-name courses that might be more likely to have dealt with training foreign nationals. Might be some paperwork involved.
I believe - but not 100% sure - that you can handle and shoot one legally if gun's owner is with you. I don't know if you can rent one.
It's a Weapons Possession charge in most states unless you're a permanent resident or have a hunting permit regardless of ownership, also varies by city in some places.
If you find a provider you will likely be asked to fill out a DOS DSP-83, this is a "type" of end user certificate, there is a $250 fee and it is approved by the DOS.The trainer submits it on your behalf.
I can give you an example that ITAR's reach extends outside the US border.Glock offers an armorer's course in Toronto Canada for the Toronto Police Service.All the members must submit and be approved on the DSP-83 in order for Glock to run the course. No if, ands, or buts.
Even as Ex soldier and now Federal LE its not enough, all non US persons are required to have a DSP-83 in order to train.Some organization like the US Training Center(aka Blackwater) have a TTA(Technical Training Agreements) with certain Defense Forces or GOV agencies, which let there members attend without the DSP-83 approval. Membership has its privileges.
Non US citizens who are getting training here in the US from legitimate trainers and facilities are members of their gov't organizations.
There have been some publicized courses, mainly SWAT type, run in the US and here, more recently, with US instructors.
If you find a provider you will likely be asked to fill out a DOS DSP-83, this is a "type" or end user certificate, there is a $250 fee and it is approved by the DOS.The trainer submits it on your behalf.
Now this is interesting information =]
I can give you an example that ITAR's reach extends outside the US border.Glock offers an armorer's course in Toronto Canada for the Toronto Police Service.All the members must submit and be approved on the DSP-83 in order for Glock to run the course. No if, ands, or buts.
I was already aware of that repercussion (for lack of a better word), when I was looking into immigration tho Canada.
ITAR references training. Apparently they do make a distinction between weapons-handling and tactics, but the tolerance for the kind of State Department scrutiny of that difference might represent is going to vary from course to course.
Now I know why Magpul does not export it's DVDs. They are available elsewhere. Makes me wonder if an US person was responsible for the first release... They might get hit with both DMCA and ITAR violations....
I'd recommend the OP start calling around. I'd probably start with MagPul or one of the other big-name courses that might be more likely to have dealt with training foreign nationals. Might be some paperwork involved.
I guess big name courses would be subject to a higher level of scrutiny, or they might want to take the risk.
But, I'd take your advice and start asking.
There is the DSP-83 form, the weapons and ammo that the trainer would have to arrange for me.
Hmac - thanks, I've seen that before. While it may be a subject to an interpretation, that line when training is mentioned uses words "military training" or "military advice". I have always wondered if this restriction would apply to a handgun course explicitly designed for civilians, something like CCW class or like.
Hmac - thanks, I've seen that before. While it may be a subject to an interpretation, that line when training is mentioned uses words "military training" or "military advice". I have always wondered if this restriction would apply to a handgun course explicitly designed for civilians, something like CCW class or like.
I don't know. My only involvement with ITAR was extremely peripheral and involved some Canadian SWAT-types coming down for a joint training thing. Ultimately, both sides determined that it was too big a headache. One of our biggest problems IIRC was never getting the same answer twice from the State Department. The problems that I see would revolve around some newbie DOS staffer deciding how ITAR is to be applied, and maybe making that decision after the fact. "Sure, go ahead and let him take the course, and we'll let you know afterward whether or not your business broke the law". I mean, if you're a firearms trainer running courses, what's in it for you to risk that kind of potential headache for non-organizational foreign individuals? Easier to just say "US citizens only". If we're talking a contract to train the entire Brazilian army, that's one thing. If we're talking teaching one curious guy from Brazil, well, that would be another.
But, I don't have any definite answer. The OP is gonna have to call around.
One of our biggest problems IIRC was never getting the same answer twice from the State Department.
Yeah, I got to DoS site and find that non-binding answers, even on headlined paper is a big NO for me.
If were running a company, I would certainly say "only US citizens"
I mean, if you're a firearms trainer running courses, what's in it for you to risk that kind of potential headache for non-organizational foreign individuals? Easier to just say "US citizens only". If we're talking a contract to train the entire Brazilian army, that's one thing. If we're talking teaching one curious guy from Brazil, well, that would be another.
Well, some guys in the Brazilian army have gone through Army Sniper School (I have seen the name of the lieutenant published somewhere official) and I have seen photos of Br Army (presumably SOF) types doing joint FTX with SEALs.
But, I don't have any definite answer. The OP is gonna have to call around.
I will, when the time comes for my next trip. I guess calling with 6mo advance would be enough.
I consider myself answered.
Thank you guys.
Well, some guys in the Brazilian army have gone through Army Sniper School (I have seen the name of the lieutenant published somewhere official) and I have seen photos of Br Army (presumably SOF) types doing joint FTX with SEALs.
I was under the impression you were a private citizen of Brazil seeking weapons training from a private US training company for your own edification, not as part of organized military training. Naturally, if you're an Army sniper or other military personnel, the concepts behind training in the US fall under a whole different category and likely would be arranged through a whole different set of channels, way outside of ITAR.
sixgun-symphony
03-20-11, 04:09
I advise sending an email to the various shooting schools to find out. I am sure that there are plenty of competition shooters that come here for training and practice.
http://www.gunsite.com/
http://www.thunderranchinc.com/
I would start with these two shooting schools.
I was under the impression you were a private citizen of Brazil seeking weapons training from a private US training company for your own edification, not as part of organized military training. Naturally, if you're an Army sniper or other military personnel, the concepts behind training in the US fall under a whole different category and likely would be arranged through a whole different set of channels, way outside of ITAR.
No, your first impression was right. I am just a concerned civilian.
When I was young, I wanted to pursue a career in the military, but was turned down for a variety or medical reasons.
However, my interest in all things military still persists.
The joint Brazilian SOF/SEAL photos I mentioned are in [link=http://www.amazon.com/U-S-Navy-SEALs-Action/dp/0879389931this book[/link]
As per the brazilian LT going to US Army Sniper School, all gov. entities here are required by law to make public announcements of (almost) everything. I am not sure if that appeared on the internet by mistake, but I don't believe it was the case.
Also, it happened at the time Brazilian Army was setting up its own sniper school.http://www.amazon.com/U-S-Navy-SEALs-Action/dp/0879389931
I understand. Your problem with getting training in the US is different than theirs.
Well, some guys in the Brazilian army have gone through Army Sniper School (I have seen the name of the lieutenant published somewhere official) and I have seen photos of Br Army (presumably SOF) types doing joint FTX with SEALs.
Well this sounds like to me that they have a TTA in place
(Technical Training Agreement) with the US forces for the foreign military organization. You may find some more answers, as this forum has a section for the US Training center.
US Training center provides training for the CF and employs some of our best CF personal.
If you're a US citizen with clean background, you can train at the facility on most of the open enrollment courses. LE and Military can take other specific courses (Sniper, SWAT 1) with credentials. We have had some foreign nationals take open enrollment courses after there was approval granted from on high. Contact Angela at 252 435 2035 for further. Hope that helps.
Here is quote from the US Training section in this forum.
Here is quote from the US Training section in this forum.
Thanks for the heads-up, mildot.
Thanks for all of you who cared to answer the newbie here.
I just came from a trip to the US in february, and won't probably be back until late 2012/2013...
So, I will have to look at this issue in that time frame again.
The important thing that I learned is: It is possible, it has been done before, just follow the propper steps.
Well, some guys in the Brazilian army have gone through Army Sniper School.
We've had Brazilian, Canadian, and Brit types come through the course (and have a Brit on staff). I have no idea what hoops have to be gone through, but it happens.
Oh, and we go up to Canada for training occasionally, and there's no drama to it at all.
Can anyone comment if as a UK citizen they are exempt for the purpose of ITAR for training?
I don't believe it makes any difference. This is based on discussions elsewhere, not direct personal knowledge.
Can anyone comment if as a UK citizen they are exempt for the purpose of ITAR for training?
I believe the restrictions apply to "all non-US citizens" or "non-resident aliens", but it really doesn matter how anyone here interprets ITAR, it only matters how the various training organizations interpret it, and how willing they are to wade through State Department regulations, accept advice from a nameless, faceless State Department functionary, and take a chance that they won't incur some massive fine after some other nameless, faceless State Department functionary opines that they've broken the law.
Gonna have to call around, I suspect.
Your correct, too bad the process for countries like mine can't be "streamlined" and cost neutral.No problem with the "checks and balances" on who gets training but at least make it accessible. Thanks for the comment.
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