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View Full Version : AAR Vickers Tactical Advanced Tactics 19MAR2011



M4Guru
03-19-11, 20:29
I was lucky enough to attend LAV's Advanced Tactics class today at Trigger Time in Carthage, NC. I live about 15 minutes away so I love it when trainers come out here, it's a great facility and the owner is a good friend. AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO PICK UP BRASS! Major win for Trigger Time. We had very few gun issues, the only one I recall being an improperly installed Glock slide release on one student's G19 that I fixed on lunch.

We started out the day with a refresher on shooting on the move. There were a few iterations moving forward and a few moving backwards. Once everyone demonstrated some proficiency in this we moved to shooting around barricades. We then put the two together and moved between barricades while shooting and moving between cover.

There were a number of unique parts of this class, starting with shooting around vehicles. Larry demonstrated shooting positions around the vehicle and what the safest parts of the vehicle were. We also discussed the fact that being shot at and being around a car sucks and you should get away from it ASAP. We paired up and practiced bailing out, moving to a hard part of the vehicle, and engaging targets from cover.

After a lunch break, we put the first three elements of the class together, and moved as pairs from the cab of a vehicle, providing cover for our partners as they moved to the next barricade or vehicle.

From there we moved one to engaging targets from the back of a moving vehicle at 5MPH. This proved difficult for some shooters...as it should be. Shooting at stationary targets from a moving platform is a hard task...in the real world targets don't stand still which only compounds the problem. Everyone had a blast doing this. We culminated in a team drill using the moving vehicle.

We wrapped up the afternoon with a few weapon-specific familiarizations. Larry talked about the UMP45, a gun I am very familiar with at work so it was cool to hear some of the history and technology involved with "the modern=day grease gun". Larry gave us a short class on the miniature red dot next, and we had the opportunity to shoot his Glock 17 with a Leupold Deltapoint. Last but not least, our very own Clynch gave a very detailed class on the history and design of the SCAR, followed by a chance to shoot both the Light and Heavy variants.

I shot my 416 and a Glock 35. No issues, as I expected.

Lessons Learned:

Watch your offset. A hood got creased, a door frame got shot, a tire got flattened. The cars were bullet riddled already but it was a good learning point for all.

Weapons setup is important. It's easier to fight with your gun rather than against it.

Shooting from a vehicle on the move sucks. Hooray belt feds.

In summary, we had a great crowd, a great range, and a great instructor. Hopefully Larry gets this class on the calendar a few more times this year as you get to do a lot of unique stuff you might not see at other classes.

TOrrock
03-19-11, 20:39
Sounds like an excellent day spent training.

Thanks for the right up.

And I agree.....hooray for beltfeds!

If it's off topic, would you mind starting a thread about the UMP45 and what you and LAV have to say about it?

nikuraba29
03-20-11, 09:41
+1 for the class had a great time. Plus the history at the end was just like being on set in one of LAVs television shows. Also CLynch's history of the SCAR helped me appreciate mine even more.

S/F

29

d90king
03-20-11, 10:11
**** ME! That sounds like it was an outstanding class. I hope he does another soon as I won't miss out again. Did I say **** ME for missing this yet... Ughh :suicide:

nikuraba29
03-20-11, 10:23
M4Guru forgot to mention that LAV drove every participant in his personal truck to do the firing from a moving vehicle. It seemed to be the highlight for the class, and it defintly was a flashback from riding in an 1114 with a 240B in baghdad....

S/F

29

VA_Dinger
03-20-11, 10:30
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

Photos should start going up Monday morning.

Thank you to everyone who attended. Sounds like you guys got one hell of a class.

nikuraba29
03-20-11, 10:55
All tongue and cheek aside, it was a good class and was nice to meet fellow M4C members.

S/F

29

Uglyguns
03-20-11, 12:44
AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO PICK UP BRASS! Major win for Trigger Time.

What you didn't like picking up brass last time? :sarcastic: I thought everyone had a good time doing it, Dinger even had a nifty tool for the job. :laugh:

Sounds like an awesome class. I hope he will offer it more often.

V/r
Uglyguns

ROGOPGEAR
03-20-11, 13:28
Here are a few of the many concepts I took from the class. Since I am new to the training environment, I had a lot more to glean than most, but I thought I would share. Enjoy the iphone pics as well.

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The Basics

Shooting on the Move
1. Heel-toe, heel-toe moving forward, the opposite when moving to the rear.
2. Use your legs as shock absorbers, keep your knees bent and legs together.
3. Must have positive pressure to the rear on your rifle with your support hand.
4. This is an art that requires practice, Larry was ringing steel with every shot while demoing.

Shooting from behind Cover
1. Expose yourself incrementally to the threat (pieing).
2. Keep the rest of your body behind cover, only expose what is absolutely necessary to make the shot. “No gaming while training.”
3. Always be muzzle aware especially when canting your rifle, this came up a few times in the class as some were hitting barricades, hoods, and fenders.
4. If you are going to shoot ambidextrously, be able to operate ambidextrously. Larry mentioned how some schools want you to shoot from each shoulder but don’t really train you how to completely operate from each shoulder. Ex. I was shooting from my left shoulder and ran dry, I had to switch shoulders to mag change because I suck with my left side. Lesson learned.

Shooting while moving to Cover
1. Don’t spend too much time out in the open engaging, especially if you are being covered by your buddy, move quickly with a purpose to cover.
2. When moving to the rear for cover, the same thing, but be especially careful. Look quickly to your rear, don’t just blindly move into your unknown.


Shooting and Vehicles
If engaged while in a vehicle, Larry mentioned that the first and best option is to put the pedal to the metal and get away from the threat. But that would be a boring drill, so our vehicles were disabled etc. He explained how that the only decent cover offered by a vehicle is behind the engine block, everywhere else is a “crapshoot.” So he recommended to initially seek cover behind the front wheel/engine block area, but then to get away from the vehicle to better cover as quickly as possible.

Vehicle facing the Threat
1. Buddy team bail out each door and head to the rear on contact.
2. In this scenario the best place to seek cover is at the rear corners of the vehicle where you will still receive some cover from the engine block/wheels, but you are still somewhat exposed underneath. So again, seek better cover ASAP.
3. Stay low (crouched), you receive no cover from the topside of the vehicle.
4. Close the doors behind you when you exit the vehicle, this is vital. If the door is left open, it will obstruct your field of view/ability to neutralize the threat since you will be crouched, and it also offers absolutely no cover.
5. This is how to operate with a two man team, it gets more complicated with more people, a scenario that was discussed briefly. This is something that should be worked out with your team.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp238/ravenwulfe101/iphonepicsandvideos022.jpg?t=1300644989

Vehicle parallel to Threat
1. The best option is to bail out on the non-contact side, but Larry explained how this is often not practical for the contact side operator with radios/gear blocking his exit.
2. The last resort is to bail out on the contact side. If you do, head to the rear for two reasons: one, because it is with the flow of the door, and two, to avoid crossing your buddy’s line of fire who is now engaging the threat over the hood.
3. Begin engaging the threat over the hood or around the front of the vehicle using the engine block/wheels as cover. Be muzzle aware! We punched a few holes in the hood of one vehicle.
4. Keep a low profile. Some were laying their rifles sideways, which helped, but then remember the height over bore issue. Larry also mentioned that you can crouch a little ways away from the vehicle with your rifle rotated and engage over the hood too. I found that placing my rifle sideways on top of my hand on the hood helped me balance the issues of keeping a low profile and being muzzle aware. I also discovered that having my stock collapsed for travel in the vehicle made it more difficult to shoot with my rifle rotated, oh well. Larry mentioned a few times that “there is no free lunch.”

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Shooting out of Larry’s Truck
This was probably the highlight of the day for all of us and Larry too I believe. He got to drive around in circles in his air conditioned truck while we got to shoot out of the back of his truck. Who ever gets to do that? Haha. We put one of the wooden bench seats in the bed and each team would make a rifle pass by a line of steel targets at about 20-25yds. Then we would make a second pass with our handguns at about 10-15yds, both team members blazing away. Each team went twice before we started a team drill. Having never done this before, I found it more difficult than I thought but very fun at the same time. It was a great learning experience.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp238/ravenwulfe101/iphonepicsandvideos025.jpg?t=1300645265

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Lecture Fun
Larry then let us have fun with his HK UMP 45 and his Glock 17 with a Leupold Deltapoint. We also were schooled on the development of the SCAR and had a chance to shoot multiple SCAR configurations afterward, which was a blast. Mixed in throughout this session was Larry’s trivia on weapon systems parts and development, which if you watch his TV show you might do well with. I suck at weapon development history though.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp238/ravenwulfe101/iphonepicsandvideos033.jpg?t=1300645433

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Summary
Overall I think this was an excellent class and well worth the day and the money. I found Larry’s teaching style/instruction very helpful and easy to understand, and appreciated the lack of high pressure antics. He would call you out on your crap though, he got me a couple of times, but it helps you to laugh at yourself and learn an important principle at the same time. Thanks to Larry and Grey Group for letting me come and play, I will definitely be attending more classes in the future as time and money allow.

VA_Dinger
03-21-11, 06:20
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

The start of the photos;

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VA_Dinger
03-21-11, 06:26
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Vickers%20Tactical%20Advanced%20Tactics%2019MAR11/IMG_2331.jpg

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VA_Dinger
03-21-11, 06:26
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Vickers%20Tactical%20Advanced%20Tactics%2019MAR11/IMG_2309.jpg

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VA_Dinger
03-21-11, 14:02
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Vickers%20Tactical%20Advanced%20Tactics%2019MAR11/IMG_2302.jpg

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VA_Dinger
03-21-11, 14:06
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Vickers%20Tactical%20Advanced%20Tactics%2019MAR11/IMG_2262.jpg

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Amp Mangum
03-21-11, 14:27
This was without a doubt one of the best classes I've ever been in. Getting to work around vehicles and shoot from a moving vehicle was a great experience.
As was stated by others, the class on the SCAR and UMP was an added bonus to an already outstanding day on the range.

I know everyone got their money's worth and then some.

NCPatrolAR
03-21-11, 15:33
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Vickers%20Tactical%20Advanced%20Tactics%2019MAR11/IMG_2300.jpg

LAV sending AMP to time out. :sarcastic:

Shawn.L
03-21-11, 16:15
looks like it was one hell of a day !

Thanks for all the great notes and details guys, much obliged .

Theres A LOT to be said for being able to get a student base vetted and able to dive right into stuff like this and be actually able to cover ground in such a short format.

randyha
03-21-11, 18:01
Duplicate Deleted

randyha
03-21-11, 18:07
I really feel lucky to have been able to attend this class, and fortunate to have been able to train with such exceptional people. This stuff is not easy folks! It looks easy, especially when watching most of the others in the class, and LAV. There is a LOT going on that can only be garnered by experience, and there was a lot of experience evident in those I was fortunate to train with. Thank you to all of you. But actually doing it???...Well, it makes me appreciate even more those of you that have served, or are serving in the military, law enforcement, etc. I came away from this rare opportunity with some limited experience in situations in which I really hope I don't find myself (but I know that others in this class have been in and could be in), some reinforcement of fundamentals needing to be honed, bright lights shined on bad habits I need to eliminate, and even more respect and gratitude for LAV and all of you in the class that have "paid your dues" in various ways. Thanks for your patience with me and for the tips you shared with me. I learned a lot and had a lot of fun.

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randyha
03-21-11, 18:10
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http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/8214/07lavadvancedtactics.jpg

http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/2288/08lavadvancedtactics.jpg

http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/3258/09lavadvancedtactics.jpg

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1189/10lavadvancedtactics.jpg

randyha
03-21-11, 18:13
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/6079/11lavadvancedtactic.jpg

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7648/12lavadvancetactics.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1174/13lavadvancedtactics.jpg

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2015/14lavadvancedtactics.jpg

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4827/15lavadvancedtactics.jpg

randyha
03-21-11, 18:15
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6022/16lavadvancetactics.jpg

http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/1571/17lavadvancedtactics.jpg

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1632/18lavadvancedtactics.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9748/19lavadvancedtactics.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5237/20lavadvancedtactics.jpg

Amp Mangum
03-21-11, 18:59
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Vickers%20Tactical%20Advanced%20Tactics%2019MAR11/IMG_2300.jpg

LAV sending AMP to time out. :sarcastic:

It's because you keep telling on me!

gunboy3
03-24-11, 15:30
Sounds like a good experience, sorry I had to miss it. I hope LAV repeats this class at Blackwater

C4IGrant
03-24-11, 16:13
Great looking class and with a lot of well known shooters in it.



C4

infidelprodigy
03-24-11, 16:36
Looks like a bunch of talented shooters at a great facility! These types of classes seem to be overlooked in the mainstream training industry unfortunately. Glad to see so much learning done in one day!