View Full Version : For the M&P Owners- A Few Pre-buy Questions
So I've (mostly) decided I want to go with M&P's for my handguns.
However, I'm kind of at that point where I know what I want, I just don't know how I want it...
I figured it might be good to get some fresh/more current info as well.
The M&P9-C will be the first one I'm going for, so I can carry.
There are plans for (eventually) a full size 9mm, and possibly a .45 as well.
Onward:
Safety- yay or nay?
Seems about 50/50 - some folks say it's to loose/stupid, others like it...
What kind of interference am I likely to get with a holster in the Raven/KC-25/Kaluban Cloak style (if using safety)?
I am used to shooting guns both with and without a safety (AR/Glock), although I do kind of like having it.
However, I believe it could be removed later on...
APEX parts- I am leaning in favor of doing these, given the positive reviews they have gotten. I am a little confused though, between the Sear and DCAEK- I would be correct to say that the DCAEK includes everything, and I wouldn't need to get the sear seperately?
Would it be better to get it with the kit installed? Or separately? (In case of a major 'send it to s&w' issue) Will I need a gunsmith to install if separate?
I'm assuming, given the rampant use of these handguns, that the current production models have most of the kinks worked out?
Would there be any general things I may have missed to do/not do when ordering?
I realize some of this has already been discussed in depth (and have read a lot of the related threads, which led to my current decision)- just was hoping to get some more current, real- time info...
Well, the APEX website gives a complete list of everything that comes with the DCAEK:
The APEX Duty/Carry Action Enhancement Kit (DCAEK) was designed to provide the M&P (9 mm, .357 Sig & .40 only) pistol owner a smooth, consistent 5 - 5.5 lb trigger pull with the advantages of shorter over-travel and reduced reset. The kit includes:
* APEX Hard Sear (9 mm, .357 Sig & .40 series) - NOT FOR .45 ACP
* APEX M&P Ultimate Striker Block Kit (USB kit)
* APEX M&P Increased Rate Sear Spring** (very small) & Trigger Return Spring
**Two sear springs of different sizes are included with kit
Everything in the kit can be installed yourself. If you have the option of getting one with the kit already installed, that would be a logical route to take assuming the place knows what the hell they're doing.
Personally, I have no desire to have a safety on this type of handgun. Opinions are split because it's largely a matter of preference. Both camps will probably argue their side until the cows come home.
I like the safety to a degree. I have ZERO issue with a non thumb safety M&P, in fact my daily carry is setup as such...however the M&P is also one of the few handguns with thumb safety that I can use without interference trying to flip off the safety, and my next handgun purchase will probably be a TS .45 M&P. Mostly because I can...again, I don't find it necessary in the least bit, but I also find the safety a nice place to index my thumb when getting a firing grip on the gun. In short, don't overthink it...
As far as trigger goes, a local shop by me does really good trigger work. Better then the Apex stuff, but only because it's a tuned trigger job and not a simple drop in. Can also do some reset work. Overall FANTASTIC trigger in my opinion. Prices aren't too bad either, save for having to ship out the pistol (shipping sucks...). I can forward his contact info to you. He's done a TON of local M&P's and quite a few around the country as well.
I have a 9L. I put about 350 rounds through it and still hated the trigger so I put in a DCAEK. I did leave out the trigger return spring that came in the kit. That kit made it into a completely different gun for me and I highly recommend it right out of the box.
I'm in the no-safety camp.
I see no real need for the safety, and I only recommend it for those coming from a 1911 background where safety manipulation is already part of the draw. I definitely do not recommend it for people who spent most of their time with Glocks.
As for the APEX parts, you need to order the DCAEK (smooths and lightens trigger) and RAM (provides a distinct trigger reset and allows manuel trigger reset). These are not optional and I would not use the M&P platform without them. Most people can handle the install with a 1/8" punch, vice, hammer, and fine forceps. You can find APEX install videos on Utube to see if it is something within your capability. If you can't do it, make sure that you send it to a competent M&P armorer, and not some gun shop clown who will attempt it for the first time while watching the Utube video. You can also send the weapon to APEX to get it done by the pros for about $160 - I think this includes parts.
You will also need some quality night sites, but these can be installed with the DCAEK since the procedure involves removing the rear site.
As far as trigger goes, a local shop by me does really good trigger work. Better then the Apex stuff, but only because it's a tuned trigger job and not a simple drop in. Can also do some reset work. Overall FANTASTIC trigger in my opinion. Prices aren't too bad either, save for having to ship out the pistol (shipping sucks...). I can forward his contact info to you. He's done a TON of local M&P's and quite a few around the country as well.
I've handled a few different trigger jobs and the APEX stuff is pretty unbeatable - despite being a drop in.
The DCAEK is a very good investment. I would also look for an M&P with the "stepped" rear sight when buying one. I understand this was the last modification done by the factor - so it will contain the improved striker and other upgrades.
Another easy way to tell is to look for the date code on the box. It's a 4 digit number underneath the serial number. Look for the white sticker and it's to the bottom right (if memory serves me right). The first number is the "year" it was made and the next three numbers are the day of the year. So for example - "9013" means it was made January 13, 2009. Or "0140" would be somewhere in May 2010.
Hope this helps some...
Buy it with a thumb safety.
If you do not like it you can always remove it and plug up the frame holes. You will be buying a gun with the ability to have a safety should you decide you want it whereas the other way around...you're screwed.
IF you're going for a 9c i would without a doubt recommend the thumb safety over one without for one reason alone.
The safety gives you a ledge to hold on to while manipulating the handgun. Without that ledge i found it VERY hard to work with the gun to do anything but shoot. Reloads, malfunction clearing were all difficult because of the fact that when there is no magazine in the gun my pinky hangs in space. There is simply not enough grip length to get an effective hold on the gun.
The safety lever allows me to add tension to the frame by pushing down with my thumb while manipulating the firearm.
Now, the one downside to going this route is that some of the APEX parts, such as the RAM will currently not work but the platform does NOT NEED APEX parts. The parts merely help, significantly but they are not required.
On top of that, Randy has said that he will be releasing a safety equipped sear housing version eventually (at least i believe he did).
Plus, IF you decide down the road you dont want to work with a safety you can always swap your sear housing out for a non safety version, the reverse is NOT true. The swap would cost you less than 30 dollars so its kind of a no brainer in my eyes.
Before purchasing a gun pick a model that was produced after September 2010. There has been alot of rumblings that the sear housing, spring and plunger were modified and that all guns after September of 2010 come with this upgrade.
Some people are still receiving guns without the upgrade that were produced after 9/2010 so im not sure exactly what is happening there. Still, buying a recent, up to date gun will minimize your chances of getting the older sear housing. Truthfully, its not that big of a deal but if you can get the best bang for your buck...definitely do so.
Enjoy the M&P platform, i think you're going to love it.
John_Wayne777
03-20-11, 10:52
As far as the safety goes, it its a personal preference dependent upon your needs and physiology. I never got along well with the safetied versions of the M&P I tried. Others love them. I'd suggest playing with one to see if the safety fits you.
As for the trigger components, I've tried almost every trigger configuration out there and I've come to thus conclusion:
Run the gun in the stock configuration for a while before you worry about trigger mods. A trigger job is not a requirement. If you invest time and effort into learning to run the gun before you futz with it, you may find that you don't really need to play with the weapon's guts.
If after a while you do decide you want the change the trigger pull, the Apex kit is the way to go.
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walkingbush
03-20-11, 11:14
Buy it with a thumb safety.
If you do not like it you can always remove it and plug up the frame holes. You will be buying a gun with the ability to have a safety should you decide you want it whereas the other way around...you're screwed...
Only one question here. Are you willing to say. "Yes Mr. Prosecutor, I decided to remove factory safety features from my handgun because I know more about how it should work than the manufacturer? " Decide which one you want and stick with it.
Michael Coffman
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Up until the XD and M&P, the industry standard for single action pistols was to have a manual safety. Add a mushy trigger pull, be vague on the features, let gun magazine hacks do the analysis and most will assume they are double action. It may not be a problem for your particular use. Changing the factory trigger pull with after market parts is likely more of a problem, but in reality, most legal actions will look at what your actions related to the act and why. Equipment and ammunition may come up in a legal process, but don't play out in the final analysis and decision.
Only one question here. Are you willing to say. "Yes Mr. Prosecutor, I decided to remove factory safety features from my handgun because I know more about how it should work than the manufacturer? " Decide which one you want and stick with it.
Michael Coffman
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Please provide evidence that this has EVER been an issue. I would like to be educated on this as i hear it all the time yet no one ever seems to cite an instance where a good shoot has been deemed a bad shoot because of the removal of a piece off of an inanimate object.
This line of logic could be applied to Glocks. They dont have safeties, therefor they are inherently dangerous and ANYONE that purchases a Glock is looking to shoot someone.
Please try to stay on topic and avoid the scare tactics...
I have a late-model 9c with manual safety. It also has an Apex Sear and USB, but it has the stock trigger return spring. My trigger is in the low 4lb range, and I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying such a light trigger with no safety. The safety/no safety argument is moot, and comes down to a matter of training and personal preference.
The engagement of the M&P safety lever is a bit on the light side, and it is more easily bumped off than safeties on other pistols. Its action can be improved with some simple gunsmithing. I've not had any significant issues with holsters, but I did cut a groove into the thick base of my MTAC for the safety lever. It allows the pistol to lay flatter in the holster and keeps the safety from disengaging from accidental bumps.
Installation of the Apex components is simple and takes just a few minutes. Randy Lee has an excellent video on Youtube that walks you through it. I found the trigger improvement to be significant, with roughly one pound taken off the pull weight and shorter reset. I've not short-stroked mine since installing the sear, and the pull is quite 1911-esque.
Overall, think the 9c is the best in class among the compact-sized service pistols. Its short in the grip where it needs to be for concealment, but they left just enough length in the barrel, slide and sight radius to make it an exceptional shooter. Capacity and ergonomics are excellent, and they seem to be quite durable.
As a shooter of an M&P in .40 S&W for the last three years, my 2 cents is this:
thumb safety – I could take them or leave them, so I don't use it. Just my preference.
Apex kit – maybe down the line, but I HIGHLY recommend YOU shoot your firearm several hundred rounds first. If the stock trigger isn't to your liking then go for it.
Something else to consider; grip stippling. The result is HUGE and you do it yourself.
NeoNeanderthal
03-20-11, 12:23
Get it with the safety. Why? because after using, if you decide you dont like it you can just take it off and get the filler plug. This is the way to go in my opinion if your not sure.
better yet try someone else's with/without a safety and make up your mind before hand.
One day I was in the local gunstore discussing with the owner why I didn't like Glocks, main issue being an external safety.
He says to me "TXBob (not my real name), don't you carry and shoot revolvers all the time?" I said yes, and he then asked me "Where is the external safety on a revolver" [lightbulb moment]
It largely a matter of personal preference. I know I have a heck of a time switching from my Beretta 96 to my 1911 and that's because the safeties operate in different directions. Pick a method and stick with it. If you have glocks and such, go no safety. If you are a 1911 person, get it with a safety that "fire" is down and not up. If you have TDA than go with a safety that is "fire" up. (I don't k now which way it is, I got mine sans safety).
How many police carry Glocks without safeties? How many Police carried revolvers without safeties for many many years?
Its not a bad feature, I think its just used as an excuse by many people. Get one how you want it configured and learn it like the back of your hand.
the safety is kind of cheesy. I'm not a fan of thumb safeties anyway, but if i had to have one i'd want it to be large, and very positive feeling like a nice 1911 safety.
personally i think the gun is useable without the apex parts, but they do make the trigger quite a bit nicer.
I've had a non-safety 40c for about four years. If the thumb safety model had been available at the time, I probably would have bought one.
In fact, it wasn't until just recently that I gave up my desire for a TS equipped M&P. When I started shopping for a 9 FS I handled as many TS equipped M&Ps as I could - and found I just didn't like them. I ended up getting a 9 FS without TS in the end.
When I picked up my 40c it was intended to replace my long-time G23 but the crap trigger really made it hard to adapt. I did install a new Burwell modified striker block which helped the reset a little, but the trigger was still pretty miserable compared to my old G23 or my current G36.
Two weeks ago I finally decided to go full Apex on my 40c plus pick up a RAM for the new 9 FS. (I don't want to modify the 9 FS for a few months in case it needs to go back to the Mother Ship for warranty work.) When I did my 40c I also had Apex drill out my sear block for the newer design large diameter sear spring, my 9 FS will need the same.
The resulting trigger in my 40c is everything I could have hoped for - much smoother, negligible overtravel, and a very Glock-like audible and tactile short reset. I'm a convert.
Even adding just the RAM to the 9 FS made a huge difference in the reset feel - now it feels like a bad Glock trigger instead of the spongy mess that is a stock M&P trigger. I'm really looking forward to adding a DCAEK to it.
Yeah, I'm an Apex convert.
Everything in the kit can be installed yourself. If you have the option of getting one with the kit already installed, that would be a logical route to take assuming the place knows what the hell they're doing.
I just watched both the videos for the DCAEK on Utube. It's one of those things I know I could do, but wouldn't attempt unless with someone who knows what they're doing... if that makes any sense. Simply put- I am Murphys Law.:laugh:
(which is what's eating at me if I do get it pre-installed)
I will say that I liked the look of how the gun/trigger handled after the installation, and it seems to be what I would want. I agree, it's something I should probably try for myself. But it did look promising.
I am going to try and order from G&R if possible. So I would have the option of getting it with or without both the safety or Apex parts installed. Kind of what started this whole line of thinking, as I am not going to be able to purchase one of each.
I have shot both the Compact and full size M&P's, as well as just about every other current handgun I could lay my hands on a while back when I was picking out my first handgun (ironic- it was actually the first gun I picked to go with before I got sidetracked by others...:rolleyes:). I was never able to handle one with the safety, as none of the shops/ranges I went to ever had one in with it. Maybe I should take that as a clue....
Either way, I'll be going back to the range to re-checkthe handling/trigger against my current gun. Also have a gunshow coming up, so maybe I can find a model with safety there I can examine.
I would also look for an M&P with the "stepped" rear sight when buying one. I understand this was the last modification done by the factory - so it will contain the improved striker and other upgrades.
Before purchasing a gun pick a model that was produced after September 2010. There has been alot of rumblings that the sear housing, spring and plunger were modified and that all guns after September of 2010 come with this upgrade.
:confused:
So are you saying that the factory installed Apex parts after a certain date? Or S&W came up with their own upgrade?
:confused:
So are you saying that the factory installed Apex parts after a certain date? Or S&W came up with their own upgrade?
As I understand it (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), the factory has started transitioning to the Massachusetts version of the sear block which uses a larger diameter sear return plunger and spring. I believe this is a product improvement meant to correct/prevent "dead trigger", which I think is the result of sear flutter. Apex gives you both size springs in the DCAEK, so it's not an issue. I chose to have Apex drill my sear block to accept the larger diameter plunger and spring, but it's an optional procedure.
Hi,
Smith began using the larger 1/8" diameter sear spring and plunger in about Sept 2010. This drastically reduces the chance of sear flutter.
While Smith is not currently shipping guns with our parts, we are hopeful... :)
-Randy
I have the full size .40 and the full size .45 love them both. I have the apex DCAEK in both and have the back straps stippled (one I did myself and the other I got from Grant and like alot). I do not have safeties on either of them but that is personal preference. If you have ranges available in your area that you can rent them to try out before you buy one that may be a good idea. While I don't have the safeties on mine I have handled some that did and find them easy to manipulate from either side so you should be happy which ever way you decide to go. Good Luck!
The M&P is a good pistol and I like the ability to modify them to meet my needs. If you are going to carry the pistol for uniformed duty, if you are going to ever carry AIWB, or if you come from a 1911/Hi-Power background, then definitely get the M&P w/ambi safety.
Recent M&P triggers have been pretty good right from the factory; you might want to shoot your M&P a while before deciding whether or not you need the Apex parts--FWIW, all the M&P's I am currently using have Apex Duty Kits installed.
Getting the pistol stippled made a HUGE difference in control for me.
The most important thing you can do is invest in good initial training. Officers in our area have reported outstanding training from Magpul Dynamics, Trident Concepts, EAG, PistolTraining.com, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, Fulcrum Consulting, ITTS, and TigerSwan––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them. Some other folks offering good training include: Pat Goodale/PFT, Louis Awerbuck/Yavpai Shooting Academy, LMS Defense, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla/Redback One, Pat Mcnamara/TMAC, Mike Pannone/CTT Solutions, Jim Smith/Spartan Tactical, Dave Hall, Don Lazzarini, and Rob Haught on shotguns. A lot of these classes are available through Grey Group Training.
I performed the sear/trigger work myself and it now feels wonderful. Not difficult to do if you are familiar with how the platform works. Although I don't have any stock parts to reinstall should the need arise (don't forsee that happening).
I am primarily a 1911 shooter but, given the choice, I'd rather not have to worry about taking the safety off when it counts. Knowing now that you can just as easily remove the thumb safety or reinstall it, I recommend you going with one if it is a question for you.
The M&P is a good pistol and I like the ability to modify them to meet my needs. If you are going to carry the pistol for uniformed duty, if you are going to ever carry AIWB, or if you come from a 1911/Hi-Power background, then definitely get the M&P w/ambi safety.
Recent M&P triggers have been pretty good right from the factory; you might want to shoot your M&P a while before deciding whether or not you need the Apex parts--FWIW, all the M&P's I am currently using have Apex Duty Kits installed.
Getting the pistol stippled made a HUGE difference in control for me.
The most important thing you can do is invest in good initial training.....A lot of these classes are available through Grey Group Training.
Yes- that's why I'm going to be getting the Compact first, as it will be my carry gun, and will mostly like be IWB.
Have been keeping an eye on the classes, and they are in the plans- just got to get my guns squared away...
They're kind of like shoes for me. :laugh:
As I understand it (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), the factory has started transitioning to the Massachusetts version of the sear block which uses a larger diameter sear return plunger and spring. I believe this is a product improvement meant to correct/prevent "dead trigger", which I think is the result of sear flutter. Apex gives you both size springs in the DCAEK, so it's not an issue. I chose to have Apex drill my sear block to accept the larger diameter plunger and spring, but it's an optional procedure.
Smith began using the larger 1/8" diameter sear spring and plunger in about Sept 2010. This drastically reduces the chance of sear flutter....
I see.
*edit*
I watched all the tube vids of the install process. This is something that I don't think I'm going to be confident doing myself....
RancidSumo
03-21-11, 00:04
Safety- Its personal preference. I got it, had no use for it, and removed it.
APEX Kit- In my opinion, it is a HUGE improvement over the stock trigger. I added it after 2000rds and I can definitely say I like the gun better now that it has the APEX parts but it wasn't awful before I got them. It is an easy upgrade to do with a punch, hammer, small vice, and a pair of tweezers.
My M&P 9c with a date of 1 28 2011 came with the older small sear block.
I was a little bummed when I opened it up to install the APEX kit last week and found this out. It has a thumb safety and maybe due to the lower sales, they were still using up the old parts.
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