Member Survey: Non-Free-Float Handguards

[rob_s]

Since the other threads seem to be going well, and since my original thread titles "official" got changed to "member survey" I'll start this one that way.

This is NOT the place for the "I need a 13 in. rail system for accuracy". The discussion of free-float handguards is here (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=944869#post944869).

This thread should be seen as all-inclusive of any non-free-float handguard systems, from four-rail, top-rail, to no-rail M4 handguards and everything else. If it has rails, but isn't free-float, it goes here.

Include what you use, what you used before, why you like what you use now, why you didn't like what you used before, etc. Posts such as "I like the MOE" aren't worth the time it takes to type them and should be avoided.

[HeavyDuty]

What I've used:

A2 carbine corncob (unsurprisingly I have the most time/experience with these)
MOE in both carbine and midlength
Ergo Z Rail

I like all three, but would have to give a preference to the MOE.

A2 corncob - I still love the way these feel in the hand, plus it's a bit of a nostalgia trip - the majority of my ARs wore them until the last few years. Upsides: compact, comfortable, cheap. Downsides: not the most friendly for light or sling attachment, but it's getting easier with IWC Mount N Slot's new stuff. I'll probably always have at least one carbine with A2s.

MOE carbine - I don't have these any more since I've made a concerted effort to go midlength. Great hand feel, good opportunities for light and sling attachment especially with IWC gear. Upsides: light, compact, comfortable. Downsides: none.

MOE midlength - I have two mids running these now. I really prefer the extra room they provide over the carbine length, but that's not really a handguard issue. Upsides: light, they somehow feel more solid than the carbine MOEs (different material?), comfortable. Downsides: the slot positioning makes rear of handguard sling point mounting a slight challenge, easy to overcome with Mr. DeWalt and IWC.

Ergo Z Rail - this was a nice non-freefloat quadrail that I was running on my carbine length rimfire so it would feel the same as my then-primary 7" Omega-equipped carbine. Upsides: price, shape (the same oval as an Omega within a few thou), light weight. Downsides: none.

[Dunderway]

I currently have two 14.5 carbines with double heat shield, M4 handguards. Each has a GG&G QD Slic thing on the FSP with a BFG sling mounted on the port side, and an M952 mounted starboard. A strip of velcro is bonded to the forward most center portion of the handguard to secure the SF pressure pad.

I like this setup because:

- It is very cost effective.

- It seems reasonably light weight.

- The M4 handguards seem to do a good job of keeping the heat off of my hands.

- I have all of the hand space that I need, while still having a completely ambidexturous light set up.

One of my previous carbines was a mid-length that closely resembled your BCM build Rob. The BCM had Cavalry Arms C8 handguards with a small rail section on the port side which held a SF P6. A Colt side sling swivel held a BFG sling.

I didn't like this set up because:

- After a fair amount of use, the handguards became extremely loose and almost floppy. Every time that P6 was bumped it really torqued on the HG. They just were not designed for this application.

- Overall, I just felt like I had too much stuff that was too far forward on the gun. I really did not like the balance of this set up and it felt very front heavy.

- The single heat shield handguards get hot.

One of the aforementioned 14.5 carbines previously had a KAC RAS with SF M952 mounted on the starboard side, and a Colt side sling mount holding a BFG sling.

I did not like this setup because:

- It was just too cramped with the SF on the rail. The weapon was very difficult to use on my weak side.

- The weight seemed noticeable. If I was going to move the light to the FSP anyway, why deal with the weight/complication of a RAS?

- It wasn't very comfortable, with KAC rail covers or ladder covers.

- Cost was $150 vs. $22 for M4 handguards. I decided to standardize both of my carbines, so going with two M4s saved me quite a bit over buying a second RAS.

Sorry if this diverged into lights, slings, mid vs. M4 etc., but the handguards were really the basis for all of my decisions in these configurations.

[Kyohte]

I used to use a Surefire M85. It was very solid in it's attachment, and held up to being dropped and banged around (both on the range and in soft cases). I never mounted an optic on it, so I don't know if it would have held zero.

I swapped it out for a Troy TRX extreme (but that's for another thread).

[Cagemonkey]

I have a set of Troy drop in rails on my LMT upper. Went on easy and have a nice solid feel. Being carbine length, they don't weigh too much. I tried some Troy drop in rails on a mid length I have and did not like them. They were heavy and had a tension arm that you tightened against the barrel. I also have a Knights rail on my A4 clone. Being a A4 clone, I'm stuck with this rail for authenticity sake. If it wasn't for that I'd get something else. Its my view that if the rail doesn't need to free float and you want to mount a light or VFG, I'd go with MOE handguards.

[Frens]

KAC RAS M4
I think it's one of the most common non-FF handguard. Super easy to install of course and the locking mechanism on the top piece makes it rock solid.
I like the fact it's pretty KISS and there're no screws that can come loose over time (except the one on the locking mechanism but the rail will work even without it).
Machining is perfect and KAC was able to save as much weight as possible.
Being a 2pieces drop in rail system the bottom part can be esily removed for cleaning/maintenance.
There aren't built-in QD attachment points for a sling so you need to get an adapter from KAC or any other manufacturers.
The shape is more round than oval: 55.15mm wide, 58.45mm tall.
Weight: 246.8gr

[TXBob]

I went with MOE midlength as I don't have a strong desire to start hanging accessories off of it, but may put a verticle or angled foregrip in the future.

I also wanted to add some individual flavor to my rifle as all I see nowadays is quadrails.

I wanted something light, inexpensive with some attachment capability, without looking like everyone else.

[mkmckinley]

I've used the KAC RAS on my work gun for years. Here's my assessment:

Pro:

The top rail is solid enough to mount a laser onto and have it hold a zero

Cons:

Cost, weight, and I've seen two of them break at the rear of the top rail where it interfaces with the barrel nut.

In my opinion the only reason to go with something like a RAS is if you're going to mount a laser. Otherwise a MOE or standard handguard is cheaper and lighter and will do the same things for you.

[AMMOTECH]

I've only used two types of non free-float rails. Take note that I'm not a flavor of the week type and don't change parts out on my gun just because. It has taken a few years to work thru these standard rails and then move on to a free-float set.

1) First rail set was from Yankee Hill. Had them on a Bushmaster upper 14.5" with pinned Phanton FH. (I ordered this upper from BM the day after the AWB went away)
--Rails felt very "fat" in my hands even with ladder style covers. The snap on rubber covers from BM felt better but was still to large. I removed and sold them after a couple years.

2) KAC RAS - I had these on the same BM upper until my new BCM upper arrived in Mar '10. I moved them over to the BCM and continued to use them with no issues. They had always felt a little big but not as fat as the YHM set but in the back of my mind I kept thinking of a thiner, free floted set-up. LaRue and Daniel Defense were on my short list.

.

[MistWolf]

Round A2 type handguards. What I liked about them is that they came on my Colt A2 HBar, felt better than the old triangular style and rattled less. What I disliked was they still felt awkward and slick, and they still rattled. I also didn't like not being able to sling up without pulling on the barrel. If I still had these, I'd replace them with rifle length MOEs or a free float tube (unless shooting Service Rifle).

Triangular handguards. What I liked about them is they looked cool. However, they seemed flimsy and the vent holes were uncomfortable. Didn't like how the taper felt in the hand. They also rattled a lot. I wouldn't use them again

[jhs1969]

I've used;
A2
CAR
M4 and
KAC RAS handguards.

The A2 and CAR have a good 'feel' to me but heat up quicker during rapid fire strings.

The M4 still felt good to me even with the larger dia., and offer better insulting from a hot barrel.

I'm on my third set of KAC rails, mounted to my 6920. I find it is solid enough for my use. I have a TD vertical grip and a Surefire G2L mounted to it, I use the standard side sling mount for sling attachment. I think it is better ventilated than the above handguards and I have not had any problems with heat build up. I got this third set of KACs much cheaper than my previous two but now they can be found at some very attractive prices.

[polymorpheous]

M4 Double heat shield.
Magpul MOE midlength.
Knight's RAS.

I don't like the MOE, never have. I will be replacing it with a LaRue rail when funds allow.
I really think they messed up the middy by not putting slots near the receiver.
I was thinking of running one of those BFG universal sling loops just in front of the delta ring.
But I'm paranoid of it slipping back behind the ring and messing with the gas tube.
I do like the options for adding rail section where you need them.
It's a functional, inexpensive piece of kit.
But it may not work with what you want to do without mods.

The KAC RAS is a good railed handguard.
Pretty heavy compared to some of the free floating one out there.
It's solid and very functional.

I'm hoping someone can weigh in, (no puns, please), on Daniel Defense's EZ Carbine rail. If it follows suit with every other DD rail I've encountered, it should be pretty light.

[rob_s]

Harder to make links here on these.

I've used:

Carbine (skinny, 7.0, single heat-shield)
came on my first carbine. not a whole lot of time on these by themselves. I almost immediately went to an M4 on the bottom for heat shielding and carbine on top to clear an ARMS extended rail for a scout scope. Worked well for what it was. I also used them on the 6520 I kept stock and they worked fine on there as well.
M4 (fatter, double heat-shield)
once I got rid of the scout scope I went to the double heat shields. I also used them stock on the 6933 I kept more stock. Never had an issue with them, but prefer the MOE (see below).
KAC RIS/RAS (forget which, the older one, clamped on at the handguard cap).
Had no use for it at the time, and it began my hate-affair with 7.0-length rails which I find near useless for my purposes, especially with what else is on the market now. With other FF rail options on the market now I see no reason to use antiques.
Cavarms carbine & mid (http://www.cavalrymanufacturing.com/C6.html) (fatter, single heat-shield)
No real issues, other than I do not like the version with no taper and prefer the tapered mid-length. Single heat-shield is problematic IME.
RRA mid (single heat-shield)
Same heat issue as with the Cavarms single-shield listed above.
A2 (rifle length)
Had actually never spent much time with these until I used a BCM mid-length Dissipator prototype in a class. I wrapped a BFG UWL around it as close to the delta ring as possible and attached the BFG VCAS that way without issue.
Magpul MOE (http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG405/50) (carbine length only, but have mid- and rifle-length on order)
Game changer IMHO. I personally see no reason to use any other. Combined with the various rail parts as well as Mount-N-Slot products they *nearly* replace FF systems for me entirely. I like the little downturned lip at the muzzle end and I hook my booger-picker around it to pull the stock in and have even replicated that function on FF rails that are shorter.

[warpigM-4]

I am running The Colt (Fat) M4 double heat shield Guards
I have tried a friends weapon that had rails (Unknown maker) and just did not like the Feel of them .I could feel the heat And I wear gloves when i shoot. Bare handed The edges felt sharp he did not have the Covers.

I looked at the MOE set up On a weapon at a Gun Show but didn't like them .

I guess i am Just Content with the Factory Handguards Does the Job for me.

EDIT: Rob i just checked the Link on the Carbine MOE ,I think i saw the Full Or Mid length ??? It did Look to Long For a Carbine I thought I am Not sure MMMM

[interfan]

Plastic handguards:

I have owned: A1, CAR15, A2, M4.

Out of these, the M4 with double heat shields had the best feel. The others were just what was out there 25 years ago.

I have shot a Magpul MOE carbine handguard and it reminded me of the profile and feel of a HK G3K. I may get one for a lightweight upper build.

Non-FF Rails:

Have owned: KAC RIS, KAC RAS, GG&G Modular Non-FF Rail

Out of these, I like the KAC RIS the most, and I still have it. Easy to install, decently sturdy, and was cheap since I traded for it. The RIS was state of the art back 10-15 years ago. The RAS shares the same likes, but is more rigidly mounted due to the Brit style lower rail with the better clamp. I ended up trading the RAS for a jacket for my wife.

The other was a GG&G modular hand guard. Nice piece of kit, but very heavy (or at least perceptably heavy on an M4 upper). The modular offest rails and screw-on plastic "covers" are a pretty innovative idea. It is just very heavy compared to a RIS/RAS or FF handguard. I still have it, but it is in the "trade" box.

I have shot a Troy Drop-In quadrail. It reminded me of the RAS, but did not get much time with it. It seemed to be decent quality.

I have also shot a Brügger & Thomet drop-in rail too. It isn't something you find commonly in the US, but in Italy there are a few around . It was also decent quality (the Swiss know their shit when manufacturing) but was extremely expensive for what you get. If I remember correctly, I think it cost something like €390, which is $550. Yikes! Unless it comes with a hot little Swiss blondie to install it for me, I'll pass.

[arizonaranchman]

I'm running standard A2 handguards on both my midlength BCM's and on my Bushmaster Dissy. I don't use attachments other than a Surefire Scout which goes on an MI mount on the FSB, so no need or interest in rails. The A2 grips are light, inexpensive and simple.

The MOE looks interesting, maybe some day I'll try one out of curiousity, but that's farther down on my list of "to do's".

[RGoose]

My experience with non-free float handguards are limited to factory M-16/M-4 type and the MOE mid-length.
Both are lightweight and durable, however I've always found standard handguards to be lacking in the "grip" department.

I prefer the contour of the MOE handguards over the "just round" shape of standard handguards. Also the texture of standard handguards have always felt way too slick to me and I prefer the texture of the MOE handguards.

I've got a MOE on my 14.5 mid-length upper and really like the lightweight and general feel of the MOE. I don't think the additional rails are all that useful for mounting a light system that DOESN'T use a tape switch to activate. I don't feel that there is enough room to have a support hand forward grip, and a light mounted on the "weak" side of the rifle for thumb activation. I've got an IWC 1" OD flashlight mount on order and that should solve that issue.

Of course, this is just how I run the gun and if you need rails, well... they've got 'em.

[andy t]

Standard 7" plastic handguards: No sling mounting slots, but were ok. Didn't spend much time with these.

Surefire M73 rail - my first AR rail purchase was ok, but the mounting screws could walk out. Obsolete.

Troy MRF-DI 9". They are ok, but felt on the heavy side compared to DD Omega. However, they locked up solid and had QD slots. A decent compromise for someone desiring non-ff rail on a midlength.

Magpul MOE 9". I agree with Rob S. I think with these out now, there is no need for anything more. The little lip at the front is ingenious as I use it to pull the rifle into my shoulder. The only downside is a lack of an integral QD slot for sling and the existing slots are too far forward for my liking to mount a sling. I ended up using a Noveske's TRX sling mount and drilling a hole closer to the receiver.

[Tortuga]

My non-free float experience has always been with M4 handguards and issue KAC RAS.
For my personal gun, I looked long and hard and picked up a Daniel Defense EZ-CAR.
The price was very appealing ($135), purchased from a reputable company (avoiding counterfit-Airsoft crap), and didn't have to mess with my pinned FH, and has proven to be a solid rig so far. I haven't run any classes in it, but have run it a few times with co-workers and have received no complaints from anyone that's borrowed it for drills.

[polymorpheous]

My non-free float experience has always been with M4 handguards and issue KAC RAS.
For my personal gun, I looked long and hard and picked up a Daniel Defense EZ-CAR.
The price was very appealing ($135), purchased from a reputable company (avoiding counterfit-Airsoft crap), and didn't have to mess with my pinned FH, and has proven to be a solid rig so far. I haven't run any classes in it, but have run it a few times with co-workers and have received no complaints from anyone that's borrowed it for drills.

How's the weight on the EZ Carbine?

[bsmith_shoot]

Ive used the M4 double heat shield, yankee hill drop-in 7'', midwest industries drop-in 7", KAC RIS and RAS.
Out of all, I truly love the RAS. It is heavier than a lot of the more modern FF rails, but its solid, dependable, and proven. I go actually purchased a new one about 2 weeks ago to go on a BCM 11.5 build im workin on.

[J-Dub]

What i've used non-free float:

1.Standard double heat shield M4 handguard

2. M.O.E. (carbine and midlength)

The M4 handguard's diameter was too large, it just didnt fit my hand. Also no place to mount a light. So bad ergos (for me), and no mounting options.

The Magpul M.O.E. handguards blew my mind. They fit my hand perfectly, i like the front lip as i wrap my pointer finger on it (like a handstop), i also like the ribs on the bottom (aid in grip). The huge plus is i can/have mounted a light without having to drop $300 on a FF rail. I've also found that the moe's fit way tighter and have zero rattle. I'm sold. For anyone on a budget, or just trying to keep their rig simple and light, the M.O.E. hanguard series is a great option to have.

[Tortuga]

How's the weight on the EZ Carbine?

I find the rails' weight very acceptable, the rig is pretty balanced, not a weight weenie or a lead pig (LMT 14.5" with a compact acog and SOPMOD).
At 9.1oz, it falls right in between the RAS and the DD Omega (yes, I know it's FF).

[Naxet1959]

I switched to MOE because I wanted to be able to add a weapon light at some point and have options for other things like the sling attachment points. The MOE let me do that very inexpensively, looks good, feels good.

[karlb]

A1s- In basic; Always loved them and have a set on my retro.

A2s- Active and then Reserves; They did the job.

CAR- My first build, I was happy with them and I guess I still am.

KAC M5- M16A4 clone; After a while it semmed silly for me to have all that rail space and only using it for a VFG and flashlight.

MOE- I bought a set on a whim for my carbine build and now use them on everything. Cheap, fit my hand great, and offers a great balance between simpleness and ease of accessorising. I got a pair for my midlength and replaced the KAC with MOEs on the 20".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/nobux/aa71.jpg

[B Cart]

I'm relatively new to the AR platform so I haven't used many, but I had a Surefire M73 non free float quad rail on my first gun and really liked it. It seemed really solid and never got hot even during rapid shooting. I liked the profile of it, but it was maybe a touch on the heavy side. All in all I liked it.

[crusader377]

I have used three different non FF handguards.

M4 carbine double heatshield: Have used these both in the military and it was the handguard on my first AR that I purchased 3 years ago. Overall these do work well for me but I have found other options that offer more flexibility and better ergos.

Magpul MOE (carbine length): Really like this handguard on my LW build. Ergos are better and has a more natural grip field than the double heatshield. They also seem slighly lighter than the M4 double heat shield. IMO they are a great value especially if you don't need rails.

Daniel Defense EZ rail: Replaced the double heatshield on my CD M4LE. Purchased these about 3 months ago. Light weight and doesn't affect the balance of the rifle when mounting. Great machine work and rock solid installation. Installed in under 5 minutes. Highly recommend for someone who wants a quality rail but doesn't want to spend alot of money (purchased mine for $140). Also, for someone who just wants a VFG and light, I think the EZ rail is a great alternative to the pricier FF rail systems.

[Rmplstlskn]

I now use the Troy rail on my 16" Sabre mid-length...

Troy MRF-DI-121-3 two-piece 9" mid-length rail

Pros:
12.1 ounces weight
solid lockup with pinch block
swivel mounts on front and rear of rail


Cons:
swivel holes force gaps in rail notches so some rail panels won't cover that area of rail. My XTM or laddes won't work on those rail ends.
not free-float :laugh:


I used to use the old-style Midwest Industries two-piece rails

Pros:
inexpensive compared to others rails
they had rails...


Cons:
HEAVY! Over 18 ounces...
firm lockup but not SOLID like the Troy


Shooting needs and style:
Civilian shooter who uses weapon for home defense where a pistol is less than ideal. Never had to use it in that role yet.
I occasionally dress in battle-rattle and we pretend to be MOUT Operators or Red Dawn recruits... :sarcastic:
I have a Inova T3 LED light mounted in a DD offset mount on the left front of rail (11 o'clock). Magpul AFG-2 as far forward as possible, overhanging front about 1/2". Sling mounted to left rear and recvr/extension.

I really like the Troy! Very solid and trustworthy.

Would have liked the mid-length MOE if mounting a rear sling wasn't such a hassle...

Rmpl

[Doc Safari]

I went retro on my carbine: skinny CAR type handguards just because I like to wrap more of my hand around them than I can with M4 handguards. I have not had an issue with heat yet, but then again I don't shoot long strings of shots.

Still, reading this thread and others I notice there aren't a whole lot of sources for CAR-type skinny handguards. Are the Cavalry Arms versions good to go as far as durability? I Googled it a couple of different ways and sort of came up with some ambiguous opinions (one guy says they're fine; another says they're not, and so on).

What's the real deal on these?

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

I'm rockin' a mid-length MOE handguard like a boss.

[smoky]

I have a set of the Midwest Industries Gen 2 Two Piece Drop in rails on my midlength.

Pros:
- Easy to install
- Has plenty of rail space
- Top rail that goes over the slip ring
- Has non-rotating QD swivels at the front and rear

Cons:
- A bit on the heavy side
- Good lockup, but not exactly solid.

I may very well end up going the FF route, but these rails do everything I need them to do. I will probably hang on to them for another build.

[samuse]

1) Colt M4 double heat shields.

They were there when I bought it? I only keep these on a couple of guns that are pretty much range only, daytime guns.

2) KAC RAS.

Easy to install, high quality, solid lock-up. I run an X-300 @ 3:00, the supplied VFG and a G.I. aceltd sling mount @ 9:00. It works well for me.