View Full Version : Is it hard to find local gunsmiths that know anything about ARs?
ok let me start off by saying that my only knowledge of this platform is completely through you guys and the reading i have done on this forum...im the newbie but why do i feel like when i talk to most people at a gun range, (that have gun experience and should be knowledgable) they make me feel like i have more knowledge than them.
i mean i dont want to sound rude or like an ass or cocky...the people i have talked with today were very very nice people but i guess its like anything else, whatever they have is the best! i see it all the time in my profession...i play ball for a living and have to deal with people all the time that never played a lick and want to put their .02 in....everyone thinks they know what they dont know...so annoying....so maybe im being that guy but id like to think that i have been prepared at least with a great basic beginner knowledge of this platform by all the experts here.
so heres what happened....i am in florida for work for the time being and i had the day off...drove an hour to a pretty awesome range out around okeechobee....really cool place...shooting my new 16 in bcm middy for the first time because i just got my troy rear flip up sight in...a really nice guy sets in the lane beside me with his bushmaster carbine with carry handle and big ole eotech (i dont know which one it is...AA batteries one)
i make the mistake of not blue loctiting in the threads on the rear flip up so it falls off....dude beside me tells me how badly designed my rear sight is and how i need a carrying handle with rear sight bc thats how his was set up...so anyways i run up to the gun shop to try and buy some loctite...dude sends me to the gunsmith in the next door down...so i meet the dude...really nice guy...he persists on telling me how bad the set up of the troy sight is...so i just wear it...again because he is a nice guy...so now i have had two insults on my set up...the next insult comes when he asks me who makes my rifle....he had never heard of bcm...i wanted to be honest and i told him that i had no experience with the platform and had bought the gun from what i had read and researched on m4carbine.net...from YOU guys! ha...of course he had never heard of the website....not a fault by any means...he was an old dude...so he goes on to tell me not to believe everything i read.
so im headed towards insult number 3....he proceeds to show me the rifles he designs and sells...the heaviest ARs every....rock river arms and DPMS...so by now im chuckling inside...he shows me this rock river with stainless barrel...it had one of those foregrips on it that are solid metal and heavy? dont know what they are called? like the one on the shootrite katana...ha but i know thats a whole other can of worms...so anyways he had milled out the left side of the upper receiver and installed a charging handle to the bolt that made it possible not to have to drop the gun to charge or what not (is that ok? does that mess with the pressure in the chamber? recycling?) i dont know? but all i know is i havent seen it here on this site?
ok so im getting close to finishing my story....but next we began talking about muzzle brakes....i want one and i think it may be my next purchase....so i asked him about battlecomps...and what the process would be like for me to get one and get one installed on the gun...from his response i gathered that he had never heard of a bc...(this is a guy that has been in business for 20 somethin years!)...well he gives me this pitch on these muzzle brakes he makes, i think, and at least sells...he makes me follow him over to the other room and shows me this dmps (again, really freakin heavy) with this monstrous muzzle brake...like larger than a barrett .50 cals....im thinking seriously??? laughing inside....thank god he got side tracked with another customer so i proceeded to act like it the DPMS was interesting and told him thank for his time and took back off to the range...
oh and i never got any loctite...only had red...not even in the smith shop! got my troy screwed in tight and finished out the 300 or so rounds i had today!...
not knocking the place today...it was cool but i cant wait to meet someone like you people in person and gain a real knowledge of the platform...thanks for listening to my long story!
and this link here is the closest thing i could find on the net that resembles the muzzle break that he was telling me that i should get. it was ridiculously big...
http://www.parts4ar15.com/ar-15_accessories/product/BL-25.html
If dude only had red loctite and not any blue, than he is a complete noob. Let's face it, even if he had a gallon of blue loctite he would have still been a huge noob:)
Next time save yourself the misery and bust a stroll on those smut merchants peddling their dpms's and bushies, that's like a hr. of your life you will never get back. Those guys are in every gunstore in every town in America....there is even a traveling show of them, its called gun shows.
...so he goes on to tell me not to believe everything i read.
Advice is always either gold, excrement, or some of both. Don't take into account what he said, so much as what he does. Your observations on his choice of weaponry and general knowledge is accurate in that he has been out of the loop for a long time, and is likely not a hard user of his equipment.
I've found gun smiths to be a mixed bag of results. Like all businesses, their work is centered around a profit and if you don't specify specific parts and installation requirements, they will cut corners on you. My advice is to take an armorers course for yourself and keep reading on this forum. Knowing your equipment inside and out, and being able to work on it yourself is definately worth it. Also, I don't talk to gun peddlers and range rats......my IQ goes down a few points with every conversation with them. :big_boss:
DirectDrive
03-20-11, 17:38
There are uneducated douchebags everywhere, sorry that you ran into two of them back-to-back :sad:
Sounds like you have a nice rig and that Troy is a good sight...very well made.
Everyone make their own choices and live with them, or change them, according to what's best for themselves. Even the best advice from the most knowledgeable, wisest expert must be weighed and taken into consideration as to how you will apply it. Knowledge that you apply and make your own is the best knowledge of all. That I learned from my children.
This is a good place and there are good folks here with plenty to teach us. I've learned quite a bit about ARs in particular and firearms in general just hanging out.
If you ever get out this way and want to do a little shooting, PM me. Not sure I know enough to teach you anything though.
Strange how folks who have little to no practical experience with something are free with their advice. Like a school teacher I dated for awhile when I was a single dad telling me how to raise my sons. By the way, it looks like you're dropping your elbow when beginning your swing and point your toes in more.:big_boss: (I coached a winning team in T Ball one season) :sarcastic:
dude you are right....i feel like these people in all aspects of professions one day get complacent and stop learning their trade and that is a recipe for failure...a business not growing is failing...i knew i wanted an AR...i did my research and ultimately ended up here...and really havent looked elsewhere since...its a simple click away to continue learning...i mean it makes no since to me that people (consumers) either over pay on some POS or pay the lower price and could spend 1-200 more and get something that is of high value and will hold as an investment much better than the POS that they get suckered into...but thats the world we live in...lots of DA's...who would we have to pick on if they werent around??
haha and thanks mistwolf...ill work on that tomorrow morning...get some early work in, in the cage!
Is it hard to find local gunsmiths that know anything about ARs?
Yes.
Is it hard to find local gunsmiths that know anything?
Yes.
Is it hard to find local gunsmiths?
Yes.
I don't have a great deal of respect for my local gun industry or community. I'm generalizing, but they are mostly a bunch of Fudds who think that because they hunt, and own a safe full of bottom barrel scrap that they are experts in the field.
Also, and I'm not trying to be a jackass here, but your post is very hard to read. The constant ellipses make it all sound like a giant, rambling, run-on sentence.
In my opinion if you select the average gun store and start to ask if they have AR experience and you look at what they are offering you will find that they are probably mediocre at best.
It is sad when you go into a shop and you realize that they don't know the product that they are selling, especially in terms of what else is available outside of their shop. What is even more sad is they do this full time and get paid for it...
I believe the only knowledgeable AR shop may very well be Rainier Arms LLC. in my neck of the woods.
One place I went to (not RALLC.) this one fellow told me that if that "electronic fandangled thing" (Aimpoint.ML3) on my rifle "crapped out, then you're SOL and the rifle's useless because there's no way to use any sights." Mind you I have BUIS. He was also wondering where the carry handle was and wondered if I had it "chopped off!" After that, I took my leave. No kidding on that experience.
JeepDriver
03-20-11, 18:16
Yep.
I contacted one local guy about having a low profile gas block pinned. His first response was that it would take 4-6 weeks, and that while he was working on it he could open up the gas port so it would run better. I had not mentioned anyhthing about any reliablity issues, and in fact do not have any issues with the upper (BCM 11.5"). Needless to say that hack didn't get the job. I've seen some of his 'custom' tuning work, he really needs to stay away from AR's.
The ones that are local seem to think they know more about the platform then they do. They want to mess with the gas port, polish things that have no need of a polish and do thier own 'custom' tricks to peoples guns.
I've only met one (1) gunsmith in my area that really and truly knows his shit when it comes to AR's. He's also taught a many a carbine class, so he has a good idea of what runs and what doesn't.
The rest of the smitties I've met pretty much cater to the fudd crowd and for one reason or another don't know much about EBR's.
Why are you gents giving these rather shady brand of people such a benefit of the doubt as to assume they just don't know their business or the current trends/technology....in my book and in my experience that just isn't the case, these guys are shilling their bottom dollar..half assed DPMS/Bushy that they paid $400-500 for and then turn around and push it on the less educated for $1k-1200 and while doing so they will shit on any brand that they have to. If they gotta tell the customer that the DPMS is the real deal military version instead of the colt/lmt/kac to get paid, then you count on them selling that lie.
I have no respect for these guys, they steer a lot of new shooters away from firearms all together very often for one reason or another and on top of all this....You paying the world's biggest tax by buying anything in a local gunstore vs. shopping it up on the net non brick n mortar style.
My hometowns about a half hour from Virginia Arms... So when I'm home, it's never hard to get top-notch help. :D
Gunsmithing by itself is not very profitable and there is no standards body. Quality is hit or miss. The people with a proper background and sound theoretical grounding are few and far between, and probably not local.
Stay away from anyone who offers too much unsolicited advice. This is just a like duh thing. You don't take tax advice from some guy you meet at the county clerk's office, you don't take firearm advice from people because they are Law Enforcement/In the armed forces (once)/Own a gunshop/Go hunting every year. Just walk away.
You can buy locktite at Napa (autoparts) btw, and brake cleaner, actually I think I get most of my gun supplies there.
Find ManBearPig!
03-20-11, 19:59
I have a local store that specializes in AR gunsmithing.
Or at least they claim to.
"Do you have a MOACKS tool?"
"A what?"
"Let me rephrase that, do you re-stake the RRA bolts you sell?"
"Why would we do that, they work fine!"
This came from the same people who told me BCM bolt carrier groups are just re-branded YHM and that Colt has terrible quality.
Not going back there for anything but parts. It's a shame, I wish there could be an actual knowledgeable smith in my area... Oh well. :(
same here No good smiths around town,i have shipped stuff to Steve at ADCO .I will gladly Pay for shipping it off to a competent Gunsmith any day .than let anyone in my area touch it .
The Big Gunstore close to me sells DPMS for over 1000.00 and tells everyone that they are top notch good as Colt :rolleyes:
good stuff...im seeing that im not the only one who has these experiences often.
i do have one question about my experience today...the dude was showing me these ARs (dmps and rock rivers) that he said he customized and cut out a window on the left side of the upper receiver, put a charging handle on the bolt so you could charge without dropping the gun...does this work??? it did seem convenient but wasnt real pretty?????
jklaughrey
03-20-11, 20:43
good stuff...im seeing that im not the only one who has these experiences often.
i do have one question about my experience today...the dude was showing me these ARs (dmps and rock rivers) that he said he customized and cut out a window on the left side of the upper receiver, put a charging handle on the bolt so you could charge without dropping the gun...does this work??? it did seem convenient but wasnt real pretty?????
Run very far away from this guy and his store!
I have a local store that specializes in AR gunsmithing.
Or at least they claim to.
"Do you have a MOACKS tool?"
"A what?"
"Let me rephrase that, do you re-stake the RRA bolts you sell?"
"Why would we do that, they work fine!"
This came from the same people who told me BCM bolt carrier groups are just re-branded YHM and that Colt has terrible quality.
Not going back there for anything but parts. It's a shame, I wish there could be an actual knowledgeable smith in my area... Oh well. :(
I've never shot an AR (gasp!), and even I am aware of what a MOACKS tool is and what it's used for.
Ever since I started lurking and reading on this site, I've come to realized that "not all gun boards are created equal." It also reassured my deep mistrust of typical gun store employees and gunsmiths. If anything, there seems to be some correlation with ignorance and working at a gun store. My favorite experience was the time I was looking for a good ol CZ-452 Trainer; I called one relatively well-known store in the region to see if they had any in stock and how much they were. The guy over the phone said they wouldn't sell me a .22 bolt action long arm because I happened to mention that I was under 21. No shit. So I bought my gun from a kick ass store in the next county. They're good people over at Valkyrie Arms of Milpitas, CA.
good stuff...im seeing that im not the only one who has these experiences often.
i do have one question about my experience today...the dude was showing me these ARs (dmps and rock rivers) that he said he customized and cut out a window on the left side of the upper receiver, put a charging handle on the bolt so you could charge without dropping the gun...does this work??? it did seem convenient but wasnt real pretty?????
o.O Mmm, reciprocating charging handle IN THE FACE. I think ASA makes one of those, that doesn't reciprocate, but their quality is questionable. Mega Machine makes a right hand side charger http://www.megamachineshop.com/armscatalog/004SPUBILLETUPPER-M0300/loader.html
As for utility, think about it this way: in almost 50 years of AR-15 history the charging handle has only changed locations once, from inside the carry handle to the latch on the back.
There are two shops local to me. The owner of one is an asshole; always questions the customer and talks about how you have to beat your kids to keep them away from your guns. I went into this shop when I was 19 or so and he asks for my ID. I thought "ok, reasonable" but when he looked at it he goes "this doesn't make you 21, son." Apparently there's some bullshit "agreement" this guy has with the local paranoid PD not to let anyone in under 21. I can understand if the guy imposed his own "21 and older" policy but it really irks me that that my quasi-tyrannical PD thinks they can do such a thing.
The other shop is ok, its where I go for ffl transfers. No AR knowledge though. Last time I was in there a customer asks "what do you think of dpms rifles?" The shop guy responded, "they shoot."
My hometowns about a half hour from Virginia Arms... So when I'm home, it's never hard to get top-notch help. :D
Having Virginia Arms close by is one of the few good things about living in NOVA.
it's not that there's "no good gunsmiths," it's that there's no standards in this industry. the former is a symptom of the latter. we here at M4, and a small circle of old-school original colt-trained smiths, act as though the TDP is the standard- but to the rest of the gun world, the TDP might as well not even exist.
so the closest thing we have to a "standard" is what most of the commercial-grade manufacturers do... if bushmaster does it a certain way, you can bet that most people out there will think "that's the way its suppose to be done."
stacked this way, as a gunsmith who does things in the REAL "right" way, you're almost as likely to get a bad rep for doing things like upgrading or staking. i've had people not have me do "reliability" packs on their guns because they didn't like my menu- "ream the chamber?? i thought you'd just want to lap the bolt and polish the ramps!" and you know- there's a time, once upon a time, when that WAS what i would have done.
so where's that leave everybody? it leaves me as a hobbyist, rather than a full-time smith. which ive always been totally cool with.
people drive piece of shit cars that break down on them all the time, buy cheap appliances that fail on them, buy knives that break, buy cheap ass boots that fall apart... these guys here in Columbia County Oregon don't use their guns for gunfighting, they use 'em for nutria massacres. i'm not going to lose any sleep over it if some old rancher doesn't want me to put an H buffer in his stick.
it's not that there's "no good gunsmiths," it's that there's no standards in this industry. the former is a symptom of the latter. we here at M4, and a small circle of old-school original colt-trained smiths, act as though the TDP is the standard- but to the rest of the gun world, the TDP might as well not even exist.
I wouldn't take Colt trained for much unless they have a program that is better than the LEO one?
The problem with standards and regulation is that it's a whole new can of worms (like the construction industry). Imagine if the NSSF was in charge. *sigh*
Imagine if the NSSF was in charge. *sigh*
Pardon my ignorance,
What's NSSF's deal?
Pardon my ignorance,
What's NSSF's deal?
National Shooting Sports Foundation. I think they control SAAMI now as well. They just started popping up in regular firearms stuff. I don't know exactly what their deal is exactly but they seem kinda hunter-y oriented even more so than the NRA.
I've never hunted fluffy animals in my life...
National Shooting Sports Foundation. I think they control SAAMI now as well. They just started popping up in regular firearms stuff. I don't know exactly what their deal is exactly but they seem kinda hunter-y oriented even more so than the NRA.
I've never hunted fluffy animals in my life...
I knew they were hunting-ish oriented, but I wasn't sure if you were implying if they had some kind of "agenda."
Find ManBearPig!
03-21-11, 00:09
I've never shot an AR (gasp!), and even I am aware of what a MOACKS tool is and what it's used for.
Ever since I started lurking and reading on this site, I've come to realized that "not all gun boards are created equal." It also reassured my deep mistrust of typical gun store employees and gunsmiths. If anything, there seems to be some correlation with ignorance and working at a gun store. My favorite experience was the time I was looking for a good ol CZ-452 Trainer; I called one relatively well-known store in the region to see if they had any in stock and how much they were. The guy over the phone said they wouldn't sell me a .22 bolt action long arm because I happened to mention that I was under 21. No shit. So I bought my gun from a kick ass store in the next county. They're good people over at Valkyrie Arms of Milpitas, CA.
Your in CA? Me too. The store is local for me, and is just one place solely dedicated to selling black rifles to the people of our communist republic.
Here is a link. Nice guys, but uninformed: http://www.parallaxtactical.com/store/
It's a shame they can't sell a good product. There signature upper uses YHM and RRA components, and a RRA bolt. When I handled it, I asked about the bad staking. They didn't seem concerned. The sad thing is I just ordered a complete DD upper for a little more. While I don't get a charging handle or a bolt, I do get a rifle upper that I can depend on, and is built with premium components.
On the other hand, I have a local FFL a few miles from my house that specializes in making guns legal for CA. Last time I was there, they had a FS2000! :eek: They also have a good selection of parts from quality makers. However, after talking to the staff, as well as seeing Condor gear there, I knew the store was a lost cause... What a shame. Someone needs to open a Ranier Arms, G&R, Valkyrie Tactical, or some other store that refuses to sell junk near my house.
Oh well. One can hope. :(
I knew they were hunting-ish oriented, but I wasn't sure if you were implying if they had some kind of "agenda."
Oh no :p Just when the government decides to regulate industries (AIA, ASME, SAE) they tend to pick a trade organization/union. The NSSF would be a logical contender.
BufordTJustice
03-21-11, 00:25
I've encountered the exact same thing here in central FL. Even large gunshops...they have never heard of LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc. You mention KAC and they tell you that "you can't get one of those." Same answer if you ask about suppressors. :/
Just look at what they sell. If they don't sell quality stuff....just walk out.
Can't tell you how many times I've taken my AR into these shops (because they have an indoor range) to shoot and gotten those strange looks when they ask me what brand my upper is. Keep your distance, brother.
Your in CA? Me too. The store is local for me, and is just one place solely dedicated to selling black rifles to the people of our communist republic.
Here is a link. Nice guys, but uninformed: http://www.parallaxtactical.com/store/
It's a shame they can't sell a good product. There signature upper uses YHM and RRA components, and a RRA bolt. When I handled it, I asked about the bad staking. They didn't seem concerned. The sad thing is I just ordered a complete DD upper for a little more. While I don't get a charging handle or a bolt, I do get a rifle upper that I can depend on, and is built with premium components.
On the other hand, I have a local FFL a few miles from my house that specializes in making guns legal for CA. Last time I was there, they had a FS2000! :eek: They also have a good selection of parts from quality makers. However, after talking to the staff, as well as seeing Condor gear there, I knew the store was a lost cause... What a shame. Someone needs to open a Ranier Arms, G&R, Valkyrie Tactical, or some other store that refuses to sell junk near my house.
Oh well. One can hope. :(
Valkyrie Arms (not Tactical) of Milpitas, where I got my little bolt gun pretty much sells nothing but "evil black rifles." They are in the San Jose area. These guys have an 07 FFL; they also sell off-roster handguns legally such as Gen4 GLOCKs and XDms. Great store, they're not even a year old, but now they always seem to be busy.
To be fair, last time I was there it was strictly business for getting my bolt gun, so I did not look at their ARs. I also had not been on this site prior to that, so I wouldn't have known the difference between LMT and RRA, for example.
As for the store that wouldn't sell me a long gun. They suck. Not only do they not run the ventilation frequently at their indoor range, I've experienced FTFs/FTEs with several different handguns (including a Nighthawk Custom and 686 revolver). That tells me they don't maintain their guns properly.
Living in the PRK and being a shooter isn't the easiest thing, but there are states that are worse off than we are.
Oh no :p Just when the government decides to regulate industries (AIA, ASME, SAE) they tend to pick a trade organization/union. The NSSF would be a logical contender.
Gotcha.
I've always found that gun smiths are far from, often times the very last, people I want to take advice from on firearms.
I know at least 3 personally, and I can say without a doubt I have a far better understanding of ARs and what goes into a good one than they do. On the other hand, they all crush me on the numbers and tech knowledge, not to mention overall experience.
I find that gun smiths are a lot like mechanics. They can certainly do more to fix a car than I can and generally know a lot more, but they often times have no idea what they're talking about or doing beyond the basic services they perform.
wetidlerjr
03-21-11, 03:08
I guess I am lucky as I have a local smith that knows both ARs and 1911s. He does quite a bit of AR work for police departments and is up on training and current AR trends, too. The fact that he is only a couple of miles from me is a big plus, also. :D
My hometowns about a half hour from Virginia Arms... So when I'm home, it's never hard to get top-notch help. :D
Yep, I will drive almost a hour each way to have Robb work on my stuff.
Gunfighter 9
03-21-11, 06:49
I have run into this kind of BS many times. I usually will ask one or two questions of any gunstore employee or gunsmith that I already know the answer to. If they can answer them, or admit willingly that they don't know then I may deal with them. If they lie or try to BS me I walk away. However, in my local area there are only two places to buy guns and one gunsmith. The gunsmith told me it would take him a week to swap out a FSB for a low profile gas block.
The one gun store is a chain sporting goods place that peddles a decent line of handguns, but their rifles are limited to hunting rifles and DPMS. The other store is a gun store/pawn shop and the guy has a mixed bag of DPMS, Armalite, and Bushmaster. He also peddles a variety of highly over priced AK's. A few years ago I took a close look at an AK he was selling and the chamber of the rifle was rusted. Needless to say the only thing I use him for is to handle FFL transfers when I order guns from other dealers with a better selection.
It seems like in NE the gun stores focus solely on hunters. What little they carry in the realm of tactical guns and gear is usually bottom of the barrel crap or airsoft rebrands like UTG and Tac-star. You can't even buy a decent concealed carry holster anywhere locally. You can buy almost any pistol on the market today, but nothing to carry it in.
I would venture to say that the best AR smiths in the country are represented here on M4C. Gun Gallery, G&R, Centurion, Valkyrie, Ranier, Virginia Arms, etc. It sucks to have ship parts, but I gladly do it just so that I know the work is done right. There's no way I would trust my rifles to a local bubba 'smith. Its a shame that every gun store in America sells AR's and 99% of them don't know what they don't know.
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Cesiumsponge
03-21-11, 07:40
I live close to Rainier Arms as well and that isn't a typical gunstore by any means. In fact, I'm not sure how much local business they do. Joe Gunowner isn't walking in and dropping two grand on a Noveske and another grand on an ACOG. They used to be a warehouse bay with a tiny walk-in office in a building behind their current location, and did most of their business online.
Their walk-in store is awesome though! I'm very fortunate to live to such an establishment.
Yes it is hard. Frankly there are very few real Gunsmiths.
Most people that claim to be one are people with about my skill level. They can build an AR from parts, mount a scope, and do a few other minor things. But when it comes to real work they are clueless.
I am very lucky to have a real gunsmith in my area. Not to sound to Corney but he doesn't just make firearms. He also makes some real works of art.
IMHO the best "gunsmith" in the world is likely incapable of working on the AR, although if he was truly the best part of that would be knowing his own limitations and knowing when to turn work down.
The internut is FULL of pictures of various guns totally FUBARed by 'smiths, and many times the owner actually DEFENDS the 'smith that so clearly damaged the gun and instead blames the guy that tries to tell him about the problems.
Again, IMHO, you're better off learning things yourself, and doing things yourself. With the proper tools and the video series from Brownells there is very little you can **** up. The #1 cause of disasters that I see is people using the wrong tools. Followed immediately by a lack of understanding as to how things go together and/or work, and then a "force/grind/bash it" approach.
I've always found that gun smiths are far from, often times the very last, people I want to take advice from on firearms.
I know at least 3 personally, and I can say without a doubt I have a far better understanding of ARs and what goes into a good one than they do. On the other hand, they all crush me on the numbers and tech knowledge, not to mention overall experience.
I find that gun smiths are a lot like mechanics. They can certainly do more to fix a car than I can and generally know a lot more, but they often times have no idea what they're talking about or doing beyond the basic services they perform.
thats exactly how i feel about it.
and thanks for the info rob s...great advice
Kruggy5.56
03-21-11, 16:43
When I got my AR I asked Gunsmith/armorer from work if he knew about AR's " Oh yeah easy to work on" he replied. So I asked him to put a End Plate Sling Mount for me, "No Problem !!!!!!". Well when I got the gun home took it out to shoot, pulled the trigger and CLICK, cleared the round recharged and CLICK. After clearing the gun I pulled the pin opened the upper and lower to find my buffer spring retaining pin and its spring in my trigger assembly. Then realized when he put my buffer tube back on he never seated it against the retaining pin and left the buffer 1/4 inch away. So I fixed it myself and come to realize " Im doing my own Sh*t.
Find ManBearPig!
03-21-11, 17:51
Valkyrie Arms (not Tactical) of Milpitas, where I got my little bolt gun pretty much sells nothing but "evil black rifles." They are in the San Jose area. These guys have an 07 FFL; they also sell off-roster handguns legally such as Gen4 GLOCKs and XDms. Great store, they're not even a year old, but now they always seem to be busy.
To be fair, last time I was there it was strictly business for getting my bolt gun, so I did not look at their ARs. I also had not been on this site prior to that, so I wouldn't have known the difference between LMT and RRA, for example.
As for the store that wouldn't sell me a long gun. They suck. Not only do they not run the ventilation frequently at their indoor range, I've experienced FTFs/FTEs with several different handguns (including a Nighthawk Custom and 686 revolver). That tells me they don't maintain their guns properly.
Living in the PRK and being a shooter isn't the easiest thing, but there are states that are worse off than we are.
Gotcha.
Wait... there is a way to get off roster handguns? The laws here are confusing as ****. Really, I don't know how the hell they wrote it. It's like they lit a mentally retarded monkey on fire, then had him scribble nonsense onto a piece of paper, and then threw it away just because and wrote something even more ridiculous, and then called it a law. That is what CA gun laws are like.
I think this quote describe it best.
"It's that thing that goes up."
Anyhow, if I am ever in the area, I will make sure to stop by the store. It seems interesting. And as for states that have worse gun laws then us, we are nearly at the top, beaten only by New York and perhaps one or two other states.
There would be a huge market for someone in the CA area who knew their shit regarding the AR platform and could competently smith stuff. Most of the gunstores here are full of bubbas and are run by bubbas who know very little about what they sell, including plain old hunting rifles.
"Does that Remington 700 have an X-Mark trigger?"
"Probably."
Wait... there is a way to get off roster handguns? The laws here are confusing as ****. Really, I don't know how the hell they wrote it. It's like they lit a mentally retarded monkey on fire, then had him scribble nonsense onto a piece of paper, and then threw it away just because and wrote something even more ridiculous, and then called it a law. That is what CA gun laws are like.
I think this quote describe it best.
"It's that thing that goes up."
Anyhow, if I am ever in the area, I will make sure to stop by the store. It seems interesting. And as for states that have worse gun laws then us, we are nearly at the top, beaten only by New York and perhaps one or two other states.
There would be a huge market for someone in the CA area who knew their shit regarding the AR platform and could competently smith stuff. Most of the gunstores here are full of bubbas and are run by bubbas who know very little about what they sell, including plain old hunting rifles.
"Does that Remington 700 have an X-Mark trigger?"
"Probably."
PM about to be sent, so as to not derail this thread.
Mr. Goodtimes
03-22-11, 18:06
good stuff...im seeing that im not the only one who has these experiences often.
i do have one question about my experience today...the dude was showing me these ARs (dmps and rock rivers) that he said he customized and cut out a window on the left side of the upper receiver, put a charging handle on the bolt so you could charge without dropping the gun...does this work??? it did seem convenient but wasnt real pretty?????
there are side charging AR's on the market but they dont really serve much of a purpose IMHO. I dont have to "drop" my ar to work the charging handle. That guys an idiot. Did he state why the Troy BUIS is a flawed design?
This reminds me of the time I went to my local gunstore and the guy is sitting behind the counter insisting that a glock is a double action only and telling me stories about Nam.
yea he was saying it was garbage because there is no vertical adjustment and the fact that the screw that tightens it on doesnt have enough thread sticking out the other side to put some kind of lock nut on it
Gun smiths are not all created equal. Evhey if they are SPECTACULAR in one area, they could be brain dead in another. I know lots of talented folks with pistols, bolt guns and shotguns, but just fall apart with AR's.
AR's are a very tricky beast for many reasons. They look VERY easy to work on. Parts can be found far and wide and ALL look the same. There are so many after market parts that all have different installation requirements to not even working with other components.
This is why you can have a Colt certified armorer screw up a basic rail install.
What separates one professional from another is the following:
1. Knowledge on many different AR's and how they are built.
2. Knowledge on the TDP AND GOVT manuals (assembly to PM's).
3. Knowledge on what after market parts are good and bad and now to properly install them.
4. Knowledge as a trigger puller so that you can tell if a gun "feels" right as it functions.
5. Knowledge on how the gun actually operates and what is needed to ensure a reliable weapon.
I pride myself in being an AR guy and knowing a lot. I also enjoy helping folks out and commonly fix local customers guns for FREE. One would think that I would have a line outside my door, but sadly, most of the locals have very little interest in what I do. Kind of funny to me when I hear people complaining about the fact that they can't find anyone that knows their ass from a hole in the ground.
As someone that works in this industry, there are VERY few folks I would send my AR to. Choose carefully. ;)
C4
This is why you can have a Colt certified armorer screw up a basic rail install.
I had my FFL dealer, who does not claim to be any sort of gunsmith or armorer do the rail install of a Troy TRX standard on my gun. He does do a good deal of work on ARs, particularly his own, but is quick to tell you when he won't take on a job or doesn't recommend something.
What impressed me is instead of immediately grabbing the rifle, rail, and parts and throwing it together, he sat there for a good 10-15 mins reading and rereading the instructions to make damn sure he got it right and didn't miss any critical information or warnings...I watched him do the install, and I had read the instructions myself. Everything went together without a hitch and it works great.
A man's gotta know his limitations. I also generally say that if you want a job done right, you gotta do it yourself. If you can't do it yourself and are paying to have it done, know as much as possible and constantly supervise.
The guys that advertise as "gunsmiths" in this area...wouldn't trust them with the simplest of procedures.
Odie Dozer
03-23-11, 00:02
One of the dealers in my area have an on site "smith/armorer". Well I was talking to him about AR stuff and got around to bolts and he says "Full auto bolts are ok in ARs, but I don't reccomend them". When I asked him why not he says "full auto guns are built to complete different tollerances and standards than semi-auto guns so fitment could be an issue". Long story short, good gunsmiths are hard to find. I'm a diy guy anyhow so I'm not too worried about it.
Robb Jensen
03-23-11, 00:03
Thanks for the kind words guys.
I'm a student of the AR myself, I learn something new about them all the time. The stuff available for ARs changes it seems every hour. Much of the work I do on ARs is for no charge. If something is bought from us installation is totally free. If something I do just takes few minutes I don't charge. Most of what I do isn't very hard it's really just good technique, knowing how the thing works and having the right tools (my uncles who where master mechanics taught me to always have the correct tool for the job, making something else work will eventually F you in the end, get the right tool).
I agree with Grant I would be very picky on who I'd have work on my guns if it wasn't me. Hell even factory guns of my own I completely disassemble and reassemble so that I know for damn sure everything is as it should be. It doesn't matter who built it I'm a bit of a OCD that way. Also knowing you own skill level is key. I turn away a lot of work because it's beyond my capability such as machining, parkerizing, barrel making or machining that I just can't do or other such much more time consuming work.
BlackWidow
03-23-11, 00:15
I would wonder if the guy who cut the reciever up to install his side charging handle was a licensed 07 FFL? That is some dangerous business there.
I would wonder if the guy who cut the reciever up to install his side charging handle was a licensed 07 FFL? That is some dangerous business there.
Uppers aren't firearms.
Just a question would a individual be better off taking his AR to a qualified gunsmith or a certified armorer if they needed work done. And because I'm a newbie what exactly is a certified armorer.
Robb Jensen
03-23-11, 04:16
Just a question would a individual be better off taking his AR to a qualified gunsmith or a certified armorer if they needed work done. And because I'm a newbie what exactly is a certified armorer.
A certified armorer = someone factory trained by the manufacturer to work on that particular type of firearm.
Gunsmith = someone who's gone to a gunsmithing school (well usually), there they learned how to checker metal, refinish wood stock, use a lathe, use a mill, how to 'fit' parts to guns etc. All things not generally needed by AR15 general armorers.
variablebinary
03-23-11, 04:47
It isn't hard, it is impossible.
I went to a shop to get my buffer tube changed. I asked the guy to stake the castle nut and he said, "Never do that, you don't need it, and it just weakens the tube, and will break on you"
I'm not making this up.
I staked it when I got home.
Magic_Salad0892
03-23-11, 06:42
Friends don't let friends go to neighbourhood gunsmiths.
Friends tell them to send it to Grant, or ADCO or something.
I usually will ask one or two questions of any gunstore employee or gunsmith that I already know the answer to.
Me too...apparently the MP on the barrel is the inspector's initials or where it was made Mississippi. :sarcastic:
2 different dudes. same store, same day.
If anyone starts in on "magic coatings",and tells me how it "fixed" the AR I walk the other way.
A man's gotta know his limitations.
A good man always does :)
Hell even factory guns of my own I completely disassemble and reassemble so that I know for damn sure everything is as it should be. It doesn't matter who built it I'm a bit of a OCD that way.
You do that too huh. :D
C4
So here's a question that I'd really like some answers to:
If I buy all the tools and set up a shop in my garage, take a Colt armorers course (mostly for the piece of paper, although the refresher wouldn't hurt), and make a website, can I be an armorer? Could I set up an AR-smith business?
I really do mean this in all seriousness. This occurred to me as I was installing a scope for a customer last night. I work for what is probably one of the most "together" shops in the area (we stock DD, Noveske, KAC, LMT rifles and uppers for example) and yet there was no level or torque wrench to be found on the bench. Other than myself and one other guy, no one else has even heard of staking a castle nut. Now, we do use blue loc-tite on mounting screws, but I would say we're still only 1/2 way there.
Is it a legitimate idea to invest in the tools, put the knowledge to use, and start helping folks out? Would I have to get some sort of gunsmith license? What about taking posession of lower receivers? There's just got to be a better way than what is currently available.
That's a good question, ASH556... I'd suspect with all the bozos out there that pose as gunsmiths and armorers that there is no licensing/ no certification required. I'd think that word of mouth/business cards would start bringing in customers who are desperate for a knowledgeable AR smith (and it sounds like you're there or getting there).
You probably nailed it with the issue of lower receivers, having an FFL would be the first thing to do instead of certification. And would allow you to sell all parts and do transfers, ship lowers, etc.
Hopefully others with first hand experience will chime in...
If I am not mistaken, your garden variety dealers and gunsmiths are usually the ones with 01 FFLs.
So here's a question that I'd really like some answers to:
If I buy all the tools and set up a shop in my garage, take a Colt armorers course (mostly for the piece of paper, although the refresher wouldn't hurt), and make a website, can I be an armorer? Could I set up an AR-smith business?
I really do mean this in all seriousness. This occurred to me as I was installing a scope for a customer last night. I work for what is probably one of the most "together" shops in the area (we stock DD, Noveske, KAC, LMT rifles and uppers for example) and yet there was no level or torque wrench to be found on the bench. Other than myself and one other guy, no one else has even heard of staking a castle nut. Now, we do use blue loc-tite on mounting screws, but I would say we're still only 1/2 way there.
Is it a legitimate idea to invest in the tools, put the knowledge to use, and start helping folks out? Would I have to get some sort of gunsmith license? What about taking posession of lower receivers? There's just got to be a better way than what is currently available.
Can you? Yes? Should you? Don't know.
To be honest, I have found that armorer schools are only as good as the instructor. With even a GREAT instructor, they are ONLY going to focus on that companies weapon. The components that company uses is going to be different from another company. And since most of the AR manufacturers build BASIC AR's (no rails or after market parts), the armorer school will not teach you anything about how to install the all the aftermarket parts that the consumer is going to want.
I am sure GotM4 will back me up on this, but my knowledge didn't come out of any book or classroom. It came from YEARS of just DOING it and being exposed to just about every company’s rail, stock, grip, and FS/MB on the planet. I have made mistakes, had to eat the cost of the item I destroyed and learned from that experience. There are some costly mistakes you can make and you might not want to pay the price that they will cost you.
Along the way, I have learned tips and tricks that just aren't taught in any school. Made my own tools, learned which tools to buy and which ones to avoid. This took years.
The hard part to learn (and what you will do a lot of) is troubleshooting someone’s problem. Example below:
Customer: My AR won't lock back on the last round.
Me: Ok, what mags are you using? Are they new or old?
Customer: New PMAG's.
Me: What kind of ammo are you using?
Customer: Mil-Spec ball.
Me: Has the AR ever run properly?
Customer: No.
Me: Let's examine your BCG and FSB for gas leaks.
Me: All check out fine.
Me: Hmm, I bet that Magpul B.A.D. lever is putting to much pressure on the bolt catch (removed it and test fired weapon).
Me: That was your problem. Don't put that thing on any of your weapons that you intend for serious use.
I give you this REAL example of me spending 30 minutes systematically trouble shooting all the known causes of a BCG failing to lock back. If you don't know how the AR works and what are the MAIN causes of a problem, you can waste a lot of time attempting to diagnose the problem and in the end it was an after market component that was screwing the gun up. So you must be familiar with how ALL after market components in the AR world work and the problems they can cause.
C4
I have thought about buying my own tools and learning this as well. Mainly just to work on my own stuff, that way I can get things done and know exactly who to blame when something breaks:sarcastic:
Beat Trash
03-24-11, 11:54
Finding a good person to work on your gun locally is going to be a crap shoot. This can be an expensive crap shoot if the person's not experienced enough to think beyond the armor's manual.
Word of mouth is good, if you belong to a club that has a lot of AR shooters.
Personally,I worked too hard to pay for the guns I have to risk some nimrod screwing them up. To me, it's worth the extra few dollars in shipping to send the gun off to someone with an established reputation.
BravoCompanyUSA
03-24-11, 14:57
Great story. I have been in similar situations like that many times.
There may be great gunsmiths in your area, but likely no good AR armorers.
I have seen stuff come back to the shop from “gunsmiths” that are just plain scary. Unsafe.
There are a number a good armorers to send stuff to. Most of them are on this board.
G&R
VA Arms
Gun Gallery
ADCO
Rainer
Great story. I have been in similar situations like that many times.
There may be great gunsmiths in your area, but likely no good AR armorers.
I have seen stuff come back to the shop from “gunsmiths” that are just plain scary. Unsafe.
There are a number a good armorers to send stuff to. Most of them are on this board.
G&R
VA Arms
Gun Gallery
ADCO
Rainer
Please don't forget Superior Firearms. (Mr. Smith here on the board)
http://www.superiorfirearmsllc.com/
Great story. I have been in similar situations like that many times.
There may be great gunsmiths in your area, but likely no good AR armorers.
I have seen stuff come back to the shop from “gunsmiths” that are just plain scary. Unsafe.
There are a number a good armorers to send stuff to. Most of them are on this board.
G&R
VA Arms
Gun Gallery
ADCO
Rainer
You forgot to put your name on there Paul. ;)
C4
In Canada I think I can count them on one hand... I can lose a finger and still count them all... :sarcastic:
DirectDrive
03-24-11, 16:22
I have a Dan Wesson .357 6" VH that I farmed out for some trigger work.
I found a guy that was supposed to good with revolvers in the Mid-Willamette Valley area.
He did the work, and trigger seemed pretty good for a while...then it started failing. I can't remember the symptoms.
I took the grip off and saw that this gunsmith had stamped my frame with his name! That pissed me off along with the fail on the trigger work.
By this time this gunsmith was 100 miles south of me. I had been shooting at an indoor range locally and decided to enlist their gunsmithing services to fix the trigger.
The weapon was transferred to the range operator and "carefully" placed in the safe in my presence.
A week or so later I went back to get it and there it was hanging on a peg along with the rentals in open view to the public.
The range operator took it down and we processed the fee.
Mind you, this weapon was pristine.....
I looked it over and there were handling marks all over it. I couldn't contain myself, I ripped this guy up one side and down the other.
He was the one who took it in and placed it in the safe originally, so I had no mercy.....in front of other customers.
He offered to buff it (SS) and said no and walked out never to return.
So, if you want to be a gunsmith for me you had better be careful with my weapon, know what you are doing and leave no trace.
Big period on the end of that.
There is certainly no AR armorer around my area that I would trust, after all the only things they all sell are shit like, Bushmasters, and DPMS :sad:
So here's a question that I'd really like some answers to:
If I buy all the tools and set up a shop in my garage, take a Colt armorers course (mostly for the piece of paper, although the refresher wouldn't hurt), and make a website, can I be an armorer? Could I set up an AR-smith business?
I really do mean this in all seriousness. This occurred to me as I was installing a scope for a customer last night. I work for what is probably one of the most "together" shops in the area (we stock DD, Noveske, KAC, LMT rifles and uppers for example) and yet there was no level or torque wrench to be found on the bench. Other than myself and one other guy, no one else has even heard of staking a castle nut. Now, we do use blue loc-tite on mounting screws, but I would say we're still only 1/2 way there.
Is it a legitimate idea to invest in the tools, put the knowledge to use, and start helping folks out? Would I have to get some sort of gunsmith license? What about taking posession of lower receivers? There's just got to be a better way than what is currently available.
There is no standards body for the aftermarket firearms industry. It isn't like being being a PE, surveyor, architect, lawyer. Those professions are regulated by state law agreements with their governing bodies, you cannot call yourself an architect without 5+ years of college, an internship, and passing an exam. Think of it more like being an auto shop. You have good mechanics, bad mechanics, in between, some have have taken courses from manufacturers and specialize in working on a specific type of vehicle, some are self taught gods who work out of their house.
You don't want a better way. Regulatory commissions are notoriously corrupt in some states and they in no way guarantee any kind of "standard of service." They do guarantee a huge bureaucracy that gets set in stone and is very concerned with covering it's own ass.
You don't want a better way. Regulatory commissions are notoriously corrupt in some states and they in no way guarantee any kind of "standard of service." They do guarantee a huge bureaucracy that gets set in stone and is very concerned with covering it's own ass.
i agree with this. you wouldn't believe the worthlessness of things like construction licenses. you don't have to know a single, not one tiny baby shred of knowledge about construction at all, to get a General Contractor or Builder's license in the state of Oregon. all you need is about $4,000-6,000 cash.
so you can be the best carpenter, have engineering savvy, be able to follow blueprints to the letter.... but if you don't have a few grand, and some idiot that doesn't even know how to READ blueprints does, he gets the license.
government regulation is ****ing worthless.
Please don't forget Superior Firearms. (Mr. Smith here on the board)
http://www.superiorfirearmsllc.com/
Thanks for the love
Suwannee Tim
03-24-11, 17:58
Gunsmithing is very specialized. We had one competent smith, Jim Rose, a 1911 guy but he retired. He would not barrel a rifle as it was outside his competence. Presently we have a couple of people calling themselves gunsmiths, one of them, I was looking over his equipment and noticed his lathe bit was high of center, a bad plan. I offered to show him a quick and easy way of centering the bit and he told me I didn't know anything he didn't already know. I'm 54 now and at age 12 got my first job cleaning up in Parker and Mick Welding and Machine Works. By 14 I was running a lathe and by 18 was as good as a all but a few of the other guys. I've put many, many hours in machine shops since the. The other local, I took a Ruger 10-22 to wanting a hole in the back of the receiver so I could clean from the breach, a common modification. As he is telling me that he doesn't have the correct tool, I'm eyeballing the lathe in his shop. Then he tells me if it was a good idea that Ruger would be doing it. The moral of this long story is you probably don't have a competent guy locally. Someone mentioned that there is not much money in general gunsmithing which is true. There are ways to make money but not as a sole proprietor or small partnership doing general work for locals.
DiabhailGadhar
03-24-11, 18:16
I recenlty went in to the local place and I needed a Buffer Retaining Pin...three people later I asked to see the item the guy was too embarrassed to show me in order to verify the item was correct. I told him.." yep thats it.." he could have asked me and saved me ten minutes of my life. I wont be doing much business involving AR's with these guys. Same people that told me the Sig Individual Officer Program didnt exist:rolleyes:...
For my money I'll download the American Gunsmithing Institute video's and buy the tools, do the work,go to the range, close my eyes look away and squeez the trigger..if it goes bang and I'm still breathen..problem solved...:D and if it doesnt then you'll see the new thread posted...
Robb Jensen
03-24-11, 18:17
Can you? Yes? Should you? Don't know.
To be honest, I have found that armorer schools are only as good as the instructor. With even a GREAT instructor, they are ONLY going to focus on that companies weapon. The components that company uses is going to be different from another company. And since most of the AR manufacturers build BASIC AR's (no rails or after market parts), the armorer school will not teach you anything about how to install the all the aftermarket parts that the consumer is going to want.
I am sure GotM4 will back me up on this, but my knowledge didn't come out of any book or classroom. It came from YEARS of just DOING it and being exposed to just about every company’s rail, stock, grip, and FS/MB on the planet. I have made mistakes, had to eat the cost of the item I destroyed and learned from that experience. There are some costly mistakes you can make and you might not want to pay the price that they will cost you.
Along the way, I have learned tips and tricks that just aren't taught in any school. Made my own tools, learned which tools to buy and which ones to avoid. This took years.
The hard part to learn (and what you will do a lot of) is troubleshooting someone’s problem. Example below:
Customer: My AR won't lock back on the last round.
Me: Ok, what mags are you using? Are they new or old?
Customer: New PMAG's.
Me: What kind of ammo are you using?
Customer: Mil-Spec ball.
Me: Has the AR ever run properly?
Customer: No.
Me: Let's examine your BCG and FSB for gas leaks.
Me: All check out fine.
Me: Hmm, I bet that Magpul B.A.D. lever is putting to much pressure on the bolt catch (removed it and test fired weapon).
Me: That was your problem. Don't put that thing on any of your weapons that you intend for serious use.
I give you this REAL example of me spending 30 minutes systematically trouble shooting all the known causes of a BCG failing to lock back. If you don't know how the AR works and what are the MAIN causes of a problem, you can waste a lot of time attempting to diagnose the problem and in the end it was an after market component that was screwing the gun up. So you must be familiar with how ALL after market components in the AR world work and the problems they can cause.
C4
Yep, the knowedge comes from repetition, exposure and experience.
I give you this REAL example of me spending 30 minutes systematically trouble shooting all the known causes of a BCG failing to lock back. If you don't know how the AR works and what are the MAIN causes of a problem, you can waste a lot of time attempting to diagnose the problem and in the end it was an after market component that was screwing the gun up. So you must be familiar with how ALL after market components in the AR world work and the problems they can cause.
C4
Hopefully you charged the guy for a 1/2 an hour of shop time. The lesson wasn't painful enough unless he was deprived of at least $50.
Grant, how long have you been in this business?
Grant, how long have you been in this business?
Been in business or been working on AR's?
C4
When I troubleshoot weapons I start by looking at the obvious.
1. Is the weapon standard or has it been modified.
2. If it's modified what's been done to it?
3. What modifications have been made and could they impact the function of the weapon.
4. Are the magazines good to go as well as the ammo? I always have a brand new known quality GI mag available to use a control mag.
5. If I can't solve the problem initially, I try and narrow it down and then replace the cheapest items first.
When people have a BAD lever installed and they complain of lockback issues, I immediately suspect the lever because there have been more than enough reports of it causing issues.
Been in business or been working on AR's?
C4
Sorry, should have been more specific.
How long have you been working on ARs?
Sorry, should have been more specific.
How long have you been working on ARs?
For about 10 years.
C4
philipeggo
03-24-11, 23:38
I am not a do it your selfer and this talk has me nervous now, even though i have faith in my local guy. I mentioned something about rail systems once and he said something like " The damned LaRue rail is one the sturdiest out there" When i mentioned i wanted a troy rail he said that was a solid rail too and he would be more than happy to install it for about 20 bucks. both decent indications that he knows what he is talking about. But still im nervous after reading all this stuff , thankfully what im having him do is easy and im pretty sure even if he was awful he could handle it.
Gonna go out on a limb and say it's a good sign he even knows what a Larue rail is.
philipeggo
03-25-11, 00:34
Gonna go out on a limb and say it's a good sign he even knows what a Larue rail is.
Agreed , ive used him a few times for other stuff and he has always been solid. But if anyone in the South Florida area wants to PM me we so we could compare notes that would be grand ;)
Hopefully you charged the guy for a 1/2 an hour of shop time. The lesson wasn't painful enough unless he was deprived of at least $50.
LOL, make stupid hurt right? :D
I am not your typical gun shop owner. When I see someone with a FUBARD AR, I get job satisfaction from making it work again so I generally don't charge anything other than the broken part. :eek:
C4
I am not a do it your selfer and this talk has me nervous now, even though i have faith in my local guy. I mentioned something about rail systems once and he said something like " The damned LaRue rail is one the sturdiest out there" When i mentioned i wanted a troy rail he said that was a solid rail too and he would be more than happy to install it for about 20 bucks. both decent indications that he knows what he is talking about. But still im nervous after reading all this stuff , thankfully what im having him do is easy and im pretty sure even if he was awful he could handle it.
Sounds like your guy is pretty knowledgable, which in itself is a rare trait.
The troy rail you're talking about - is it free-float or non-free-float?
philipeggo
03-25-11, 10:07
It was Free Float , TRX 7". I went with standard CAR Hand-guards for the moment but once i save up some cash ill reevaluate and maybe get the Troy.
Sounds like your guy is pretty knowledgable, which in itself is a rare trait.
The troy rail you're talking about - is it free-float or non-free-float?
Beat Trash
03-25-11, 11:09
LOL, make stupid hurt right? :D
I am not your typical gun shop owner. When I see someone with a FUBARD AR, I get job satisfaction from making it work again so I generally don't charge anything other than the broken part. :eek:
C4
This is how to develop a strong customer base. You'll make it up many times over in the repeat business you can get from the guy who's gun you un-fubar'ed.
It's a shame you're not in my market area. But then, I need another gun like I need another ex-wife...
But then, I need another gun like I need another ex-wife...
Doesn't everyone need an Ex-Wife?? :eek:
C4
Beat Trash
03-25-11, 11:20
Doesn't everyone need an Ex-Wife?? :eek:
C4
One per customer is just fine, thank you!:suicide2:
LOL, make stupid hurt right? :D
I am not your typical gun shop owner. When I see someone with a FUBARD AR, I get job satisfaction from making it work again so I generally don't charge anything other than the broken part. :eek:
C4
Hey Grant, I agree with you and try to do my part as well with trouble-shooting people's malf'ing guns for free, but let me pitch this one @ you and get your take:
Last thursday night dude brings in a DPMS Sportical (that he bought somewhere else) and a nockoff Cmore sight (also purchased elsewhere), and asks me to install it & zero it for him. So I do, and not trying to be a dick, I don't say, "Get rid of all that cheap-assed shit and buy something real." Same dude comes back Tuesday toting a UTG Rail and Mako Grip-pod-ish-thingy that he tells me he bought from CTD. So I proceed to install both for him per his request. This time, I charge him $10. Would you have charged? Do you try to convert these guys, or just let them live in ignorant bliss unless they ask?
Hey Grant, I agree with you and try to do my part as well with trouble-shooting people's malf'ing guns for free, but let me pitch this one @ you and get your take:
Last thursday night dude brings in a DPMS Sportical (that he bought somewhere else) and a nockoff Cmore sight (also purchased elsewhere), and asks me to install it & zero it for him. So I do, and not trying to be a dick, I don't say, "Get rid of all that cheap-assed shit and buy something real." Same dude comes back Tuesday toting a UTG Rail and Mako Grip-pod-ish-thingy that he tells me he bought from CTD. So I proceed to install both for him per his request. This time, I charge him $10. Would you have charged? Do you try to convert these guys, or just let them live in ignorant bliss unless they ask?
You are right to not provide feedback on the customers gun or components selected. With that said, if the customer asks me for my opinion on the subject I will let them have it. There are also ways to lead the customer down the road of knowledge (where they are basically asking you to educate them).
If the customer DID NOT BUY the item from you, then I would be charging them for installation. If they bought the item from me and it takes me a couple minutes to put it on, there is never any charge.
C4
Doesn't everyone need an Ex-Wife?? :eek:
C4
It's easier to walk into a run down bar, find the fattest, ugliest, meanest bitch there, buy her a drink, a car & a house and be done with it
ewells2420
03-25-11, 14:31
luckily I live right next to Fort Bragg, NC. A lot of shops operated by ex-spec ops and very expirenced armorors. A lot of bad shops too .... but just gotta find the good ones.
...so anyways i run up to the gun shop to try and buy some loctite...dude sends me to the gunsmith in the next door down...so i meet the dude...really nice guy...he persists on telling me how bad the set up of the troy sight is...so i just wear it...again because he is a nice guy...so now i have had two insults on my set up...the next insult comes when he asks me who makes my rifle....he had never heard of bcm...i wanted to be honest and i told him that i had no experience with the platform and had bought the gun from what i had read and researched on m4carbine.net...from YOU guys! ha...of course he had never heard of the website....not a fault by any means...he was an old dude...so he goes on to tell me not to believe everything i read.
so im headed towards insult number 3....he proceeds to show me the rifles he designs and sells...the heaviest ARs every....rock river arms and DPMS...so by now im chuckling inside...he shows me this rock river with stainless barrel...it had one of those foregrips on it that are solid metal and heavy? dont know what they are called? like the one on the shootrite katana...
I know exactlyhow you feel.
I recently traded off my my 'old' AR for one from Daniel Defense. And of course you have everyone ask you a bazillion questions about why you would dump a "perfectly good" rifle for one that costs twice as much. So I did the best I could telling them all the stuff I had learned pertaining to why I would do so. Wouldn't you know- I get the thing and it has a couple issues. And immediately I got the "thought you said this was a better company har-de-har" line. What can you do... :suicide2:
And I have a neighbor who builds ARs- but he's rather obsessed with quantity over quality. He proceeded to show me his "top of the line" rifle- his weighed a ton too!:lol:
Out of the 7 gunshops within 2+/- hours of me, two I will never step foot in again, unless they're standing at the door handing out free guns. And three of the others only as a last resort.
Anyway-
I'm glad someone posted this as I was about to myself. Good to have a heads up about the 'smithing classes too.
At least I know I'm not to bad off- VA Arms is *only* about 4 hours away.:p
ohiorifleman
03-25-11, 19:24
I have a dealer/friend that started up about two years ago and I have been trying to lead him down the road of AR knowledge but he seems to keep hitting speed bumps. I went in today and noticed an old RRA A2 ban era(no logo on lower just lettering) hanging on the wall above the shotguns- 799.00 on the tag. I pull it down because I can't resist and the only other AR in the shop is a CMMG 6.8. He instantly tells me if I know someone who could use it he would take 600.00 for it. So before even looking I ask him why so cheap (his AR prices run around a grand for the right side of the chart names). He says look at the FSB- someone had lopped it off because they had a carry handle scope mount and apparently thought the front sight was still in the way. The dealer goes on to tell me that the seller had brought it in a couple times to trade and he had refused but, apparently the third time was the charm after the seller had re-attached the top part of the FSB with epoxy:blink:.
So I am trying to figure who is the dumber of the two- the guy who re-attached the upper part of the FSB with epoxy or the dealer who actually took it in on trade.
I would wager I'll have that rifle here eventually making into some other fuddable configuration so he can actually sell it.
wetidlerjr
03-25-11, 19:46
... the seller had re-attached the top part of the FSB with epoxy:blink:.
So I am trying to figure who is the dumber of the two- the guy who re-attached the upper part of the FSB with epoxy or the dealer who actually took it in on trade.
I would wager I'll have that rifle here eventually making into some other fuddable configuration so he can actually sell it. :haha:
Stop it ! You're killing me ! :D
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