View Full Version : Oh hell! Here we go again... Afganistan war trophy photos...
Rmplstlskn
03-21-11, 10:45
As if things in A-stan were peaches and cream, now these photos hit the news...
Timed just as we bomb Libya...
Let's see what the hornets nest (islam) does this time...
Drudge Report (http://www.drudgereport.com/)
BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12803148)
Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/21/us-army-kill-team-afghanistan-posed-pictures-murdered-civilians)
Rmpl
Got a link?
You can start here: Google: Der Spiegel Afghanistan Photos (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&pwst=1&rls=en&sa=X&ei=03iHTaDzK5K2tgeU3PXJBA&ved=0CCEQvwUoAQ&q=der+spiegel+afghanistan+photos&spell=1)
I can't find the pictures in question, but I didn't dig real deep.
http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-194584-galleryV9-ghyz.jpg
http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-194553-galleryV9-ocbh.jpg
http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-194596-galleryV9-pvhp.jpg
this is only 3 out of 4,000 images that Spiegal obtained.
12 suspects are being tried on various charges including pre-meditated murder.
source:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,752310,00.html
IF those are legit kills of enemy combatants the soldiers have a right to be happy. Posing with the dead is certainly ghoulish and in poor taste but the exhilaration of "surviving" makes one do strange things.
IF however, those actually were non combatants killed accidentally then the soldiers in question should feel regret, if not shame. And I say this because sometimes you don't have the luxury of shame when you are trying to stay alive, plenty of time for that for the rest of your life if you happen to live out your tour. There is certainly nothing to be proud of for the accidental death of a non combatant.
And IF a non combatant was deliberately targeted and killed (and here I mean a TRUE non combatant, one that wasn't supplying information to the enemy or in any way setting up US forces for attack) then that is actually a crime and not only is it not anything to be proud of, but taking photos like these is incredibly stupid and on par with gang bangers who video tape their assaults on innocent people.
Isn't taking pictures of enemy combatants illegal under the Geneva Convention or are we not extending those rights to combatants in Afghanistan because they are not lawful combatants?
Maybe that only applies to prisoners, anyone know the law?
Isn't taking pictures of enemy combatants illegal under the Geneva Convention or are we not extending those rights to combatants in Afghanistan because they are not lawful combatants?
Maybe that only applies to prisoners, anyone know the law?
The US is not bound to the Geneva convention (edit: in the war on terrorism).
The US is not bound to the Geneva convention.
Yeah we are. Think you are thinking of the Hague convention.
Anyways I know that taking pictures of prisoners for the purpose of humiliation/propaganda is forbidden, I don't know about taking a pic with a dead enemy soldier like he is a dead deer or something. Definetely screwed up, but I was wondering if anyone knew if that was also illegal.
Yeah we are. Think you are thinking of the Hague Accord.
No, for this, we technically are not. This is a war on terrorism. Terrorism is exempt from the Geneva convention due to clauses added when ratified by the US Congress:
"1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. 2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions: (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) That of carrying arms openly; (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."
If those were legitimate kills of terrorists, then the US is not bound by the Geneva Convention in those incidents, as they do not meet the criteria for having to comply with it in the first place.
No, for this, we technically are not.
I specifically asked if this is exempted because it wasn't a lawful combatant.
Saying the Geneva convention does not apply because they are not lawful combatants is not the same thing as saying we are not bound by the Geneva convention.
Cincinnatus
03-21-11, 18:12
Many of these guys are already on trial for allegedly killing civilians. This is only news now because the pics have gone public. Despite all the appearance from the way the story has been presented that these guys are all guilty--with any such accusations, it is best to keep off the tin foil hats, because there is usually a whole world of information we do not know, that the press does not know, and that we may never know about how that situation or situations went down. In fact, for anyone who was not there to sit in judgment on those who were in not only problematic, but in many cases, fatuous and grossly distorting. If this does turn out to be some Abu Ghraib stupidity, then their condemnation is just, but let's not jump to conclusions.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/21/us-army-kill-team-afghanistan-posed-pictures-murdered-civilians
Assuming their innocence until proven otherwise, taking pictures like this is still stupid. Who is in charge while these pictures are being taken?
Assuming their innocence until proven otherwise, taking pictures like this is still stupid. Who is in charge while these pictures are being taken?
There NCO's are the ones taking pictures :sarcastic:
On a serious note, the evidence is pretty strong against the dumb asses in the photos. And if they are in fact guilty, I'd say that 100,000's of combat veterans and there have been less than a handful of such occurrences speaks volumes about the quality of US troops.
You'll always have bad apples.
rickrock305
03-21-11, 19:47
Can always count on der spiegel to stoke the anti-American flames whenever possible.
Can always count on der spiegel to stoke the anti-American flames whenever possible.
IF it proves those guys are at fault, I can hardly blame the publication that brought it to light. While I may personally despise shit like the Huffington Post, IF they are actually reporting a true story about a conservative that IS guilty and they aren't exaggerating or making anything up, it really isn't the fault of the Huffington Post.
I'd actually prefer a conservative source out the bad apples as an example of self policing and holding the standard, but regardless I lay responsibility at the feet of those who are responsible.
Belmont31R
03-21-11, 22:11
The thing about things like this and the reaction of the 'locals' is why we shouldn't be wasting American lives on democracy/nation building. If these people can't forgive or look past one group of idiots and show thanks for what the other 99.999% of our soldiers are doing they aren't worth fighting for. We are fighting for them....
The same thing with Abu Graib or whatever the **** that was. One group of idiots, and the locals go nuts.
Oh and wheres the local's outrage when the 'freedom fighters' leave a pile of 30 headless corpses in the middle of the road...which just so happens to occur much more frequently than anything stupid like this our soldiers get caught doing. **** those dirty savages. They aren't worth our soldiers lives, time, money, whatever.
The thing about things like this and the reaction of the 'locals' is why we shouldn't be wasting American lives on democracy/nation building. If these people can't forgive or look past one group of idiots and show thanks for what the other 99.999% of our soldiers are doing they aren't worth fighting for. We are fighting for them....
The same thing with Abu Graib or whatever the **** that was. One group of idiots, and the locals go nuts.
Oh and wheres the local's outrage when the 'freedom fighters' leave a pile of 30 headless corpses in the middle of the road...which just so happens to occur much more frequently than anything stupid like this our soldiers get caught doing. **** those dirty savages. They aren't worth our soldiers lives, time, money, whatever.
The phenomena of people who are willing to hate the US even to the extent of embracing communism, terrorism and a host of other truly reprehensible shit completely out of proportion with their original objections to the US is something I have never understood.
The same thing with Abu Graib or whatever the **** that was. One group of idiots, and the locals go nuts.
Are you serious? The shit that went on in Abu Ghraib happened for YEARS. It was deeper than what the media reported.
You can educate yourself by starting here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
The thing about things like this and the reaction of the 'locals' is why we shouldn't be wasting American lives on democracy/nation building. If these people can't forgive or look past one group of idiots and show thanks for what the other 99.999% of our soldiers are doing they aren't worth fighting for. We are fighting for them....
We are not fighting for them. The US Military is hunting down islamic extremists that pose a threat to the United States. Part of this action involves occupying a host country. That NEVER goes well with the local population, and you better expect resistance.
Imagine if it was your family members who were raped, tortured, murdered, etc, would YOU forgive the occupier?
This is the reality of war.
I wish the USA would wage a media campaign too. Like the Taliban propping civilians up against a wall before hosing them with AK47s. Or stoning a pregnant women before executing her point blank with a pistol.
And we're supposed to be the bad guys.
The press always picks up on U.S. wrongdoing because it's juicy. While the actions of these soldiers *may* be deplorable (pending outcome of trial/investigation), mass media seems to rarely show what we're fighting for, what we're fighting against.
The press always picks up on U.S. wrongdoing because it's juicy.
It may be juicy, but it's also shameful. Don't expect to bring shame to our nation and get away with it.
rickrock305
03-21-11, 23:10
IF it proves those guys are at fault, I can hardly blame the publication that brought it to light. While I may personally despise shit like the Huffington Post, IF they are actually reporting a true story about a conservative that IS guilty and they aren't exaggerating or making anything up, it really isn't the fault of the Huffington Post.
I'd actually prefer a conservative source out the bad apples as an example of self policing and holding the standard, but regardless I lay responsibility at the feet of those who are responsible.
from my understanding there a group of them already being charged.
It;s ok as long as the Game Warden checks them out.
Personally I feel if you take up arms against the US....... well you made a piss poor life choice and deserve whatever you get.
well you made a piss poor life choice and deserve whatever you get.
Even if your only crime is being born on a shit stain piece of dirt in one of the most inhospitable places on earth?
Not sure if you're up to speed on the details but the soldiers in question are accused of murdering civilians for sport not alqaeda fighters.
ETA: I for one have nothing but sympathy for those in Afghanistan and similar countries who simply had the misfortune of being created from the wrong sperm, they had no choice of birth and those of us on this board are fortunate enough to have won the lottery when it comes to popping out of a vagina. We're far more likely to have been born to family that makes less than $2 a day in some shit hole where we would suffer and than die with out ever the opportunity to enrich our lives with the small pleasures we take for granted every day such as waking up.
Cincinnatus
03-22-11, 08:15
It may be juicy, but it's also shameful. Don't expect to bring shame to our nation and get away with it.
With Obama, they not only get away with it, but Obama apologizes to them and everyone else who will listen and says: "you are right, we are a bunch of bastards, we're sorry." In the typical Liberal self-flagellation that seems to be the bear-shirt of their religion.
Cincinnatus
03-22-11, 08:22
The phenomena of people who are willing to hate the US even to the extent of embracing communism, terrorism and a host of other truly reprehensible shit completely out of proportion with their original objections to the US is something I have never understood.
Insightful. The US is indeed portrayed as the devil incarnate out of all proportion to any actual 'offenses.'
And those same commies that point to the US as the chief-offender of Imperialism, for example, always neglect to mention that the British, the French, the Germans, the Italians, the Dutch, the Russians, the Japanese, and the Spanish were all far worse offenders in that respect than the US ever was. (These critics are often ironically from one of the above countries.) The only colonies the US ever had were: Guam, the Phillippines, Puerto Rico, Samoa, and Hawaii. Britain alone had, just to name a few: the Transvaal, Orange Free State, Cape Colony, the Sudan, Rhodesia, India, Canada, Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand... the list goes on and on and on.
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