View Full Version : No Modification FF Rails
I recently bought my first AR. After months of research, finding the "chart", and searching this forum I decided on a LE6920 (which I got NIB for an outstanding price).
Now I want to put a FF rail and had all but decided to go with an 11" or 13" Troy or VTAC TRX with a LP gas block to get some extra purchase.
Then guys at the club and the local gun shop, who actually stocks the VTAC TRX at internet prices, are advising me not to alter the rifle (pinning LP block, etc) because its a Colt:confused:. I think they have swayed me because this route also would relieve me of the expense and hassle of the LP block install.
So now I started searching for a no-mod solution. I'm leaning toward a CASV-EL http://www.vltor.com/handguards_and_rails_pics.htm#black
because its 0 modification, gives me and extra 2"(would have preferred more), doesn't have unnecessary rails, and the top rail system would actually help get a variable mag scope further over the front sight post. But in rob_s's recent post, it doesn't seem to be a common rail solution.
I was hoping some people with more experience could way in with some advice on this or other options. I have looked at the J Point carbine rail with an extender and the options from DD. DD options seam like a lot of picatinny rail and a lot of $$. But I'm not making this decision on $$ alone.
My club is going to start 3 gun and I may want to give it a try. 3 gun, IPDA, IPSC is pretty big in my neck of the woods. I will want to maybe use this gun for that initially and I am taking some Carbine courses in a late spring. I plan to run a 1-4 scope. If I get into three gun I will most likely build a 18" upper for that purpose.
Thanks for any input.
you could use the Troy MRF-CX. I have no personal experience with it, but it is FF and requires only cutting off the delta ring. It also extends past the FSB.
http://troyind.com/%20/battlerails/troy-battlerail-12-mrf-cx
Nothing wrong with the VLTOR
Mike Miller
03-21-11, 11:58
The new TRX and VTAC Extreme versions (which are not out yet) are supposed to use the stock barrel nut, if you don't mind waiting
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=46575&page=16
The good news is that the Vltor is a very easy install, and if you decide you don't like it it's also very easily removed.
ETA:
I'm going to add to the above. The Vltor is heavy as shit for what it is (top-rail only) and also raises the top rail which may require you to buy mounts that you'll have to replace if you replace the handguard. I would personally not opt for it because of this.
comparision chart of FF rails (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNGblVaTWtaTkYyRFE&output=html)
The good news is that the Vltor is a very easy install, and if you decide you don't like it it's also very easily removed.
ETA:
I'm going to add to the above. The Vltor is heavy as shit for what it is (top-rail only) and also raises the top rail which may require you to buy mounts that you'll have to replace if you replace the handguard. I would personally not opt for it because of this.
comparision chart of FF rails (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNGblVaTWtaTkYyRFE&output=html)
Is your posted weight with the extra rail pieces? Their website lists it at 13.5 oz.
Any experience with the CASV-ELS?http://www.vltor.com/casv-els.htm
That would let me co-witness with any RDS with standard mounts if I wanted to in the future.
The new VTAC Extreme looks good but I don't know if they with make a slotted rail or extender for a carbine length gas/FSP.
What are your opinions of the JP rail with extender piece? Wouldn't that be as heavy?
The "***" indicates 3.8 oz. added for the delta ring, barrel nut, and handguard cap which all remain.
I don't think I have the weight handy of hte JP w/ extension, but no it's not a lightweight either.
If you're set on retaining the FSB, weight will be the tradeoff. You could remove the FSB, do an aftermarket set-screw low-profile gas block, get the barrel dimpled for the set-screw (very minor "defect" if you ever remove it) and install whatever rail you want over top of it.
Does anyone have any experience with this:
http://www.apexcncmachine.com/store.php?seller=ApexMachiningCompany&navt1=19974&pd=347061#images
I have an older model tube from Apex. They are lighter now, and the top rail is at the same height as the flattop upper (mine wasn't). Mine is a full 12.0 model, but I think the one you linked to might be viable for your needs.
You may find this link (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=76938) helpful.
Gunfighter 9
03-23-11, 06:25
Don't let people scare you away from the TRX. It is an outstanding rail, and not hard to install. There are plenty of how to videos on the net that show how to remove a front sight block from an AR-15. I have very little mechanical skill and I managed to do this myself. If you don't want the TRX because you don't think it will work for you that's one thing. However, don't avoid it because you don't think you can install it. All you need is a bench mounted vise and some basic hand tools namely a set of punches, hammer, hex wrenches, and a long handled wrench. Here are some videos I used to learn the process. Good luck to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eryr0wZ71Hg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOA0jA0Ei74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK4XzPll9U8
The new TRX and VTAC Extreme versions (which are not out yet) are supposed to use the stock barrel nut, if you don't mind waiting
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=46575&page=16
That's interesting. I heard there was hardness issues with the proprietary nut.
Don't let people scare you away from the TRX. It is an outstanding rail, and not hard to install. There are plenty of how to videos on the net that show how to remove a front sight block from an AR-15. I have very little mechanical skill and I managed to do this myself. If you don't want the TRX because you don't think it will work for you that's one thing. However, don't avoid it because you don't think you can install it. All you need is a bench mounted vise and some basic hand tools namely a set of punches, hammer, hex wrenches, and a long handled wrench. Here are some videos I used to learn the process. Good luck to you.
Thanks for the links.
The issue for me is not a fear of installation but advice from several people (including the owner of a local gun shop who sold the TRX) not to alter a "Colt". I was very surprised at how many different people have strongly suggested I don't modify my "Colt". Even taking the FSB off.
That philosophy is debatable I guess, but it was enough to sway me, with all other things considered, to the no mod route. I had considered a clamp on LP block but found many concerns about them here.
I probably would have built a BCM, etc rifle instead but I got a NIB LE6920 for $1100 no tax and free shipping.
rob_s: I had found that link the other day and it was very helpful. I think with the APEX I will just need to remove the delta ring. From what the website has, it is nearly half the weight. But again, I have not found many posts about it here so i was not sure if it was a quality rail.
Well if I were going for the least amount of modification I would go with the DD Omega (zero mod- even the delta ring and HG cap stays). Next up for me would possibly be the Centurion (keep stock barrel nut).
But, it looks like you would like to get your hand out a bit further, and neither of these rails accomplishes that.
The Vltor accomplishes this with zero mods if you are willing to accept the possible (only you know if it's acceptable for you) weight and raised rail penalties. The Troy FSP rail accomplishes it with the stock barrel nut only loosing the delta and cap, but it's possibly a bit heavy...
Personally unless it's a collector item (6920 isn't) I wouldn't give a hoot about modifying it just because it's a Colt. What’s the issue? Resale? Collector status? Reliability? As long as it's done in a competent manner with parts that are not substandard, I’d be fine. But, I wouldn’t be comfortable with a clamp on/set screw gas block on a defensive rifle...
My vote would ultimately be to run the best rail that meets your needs and purpose, mods or not. I would go with either a FSP model from someone like DD, or shave the FSP (rather than clamp/set screw) and run whatever quality rail that you settle on.
If you go with a FSP model you can always keep the nut, delta, and cap. You can have it back to stock Colt form in an hour...
Regarding weight:
The stock rifle with carry handle and front side mount sling attachment weighs 6.92 lbs.
W/0 carry handle 6.36 lbs
Using rob_s's chart:
VLTOR CAVS-EL weighs 16.3 oz
I would be removing the front sight mount, adding a different one and a Troy BUIS. I couldn't find the weight of these but they should be close to canceling each other out.
Unless I'm forgetting something or my math is wrong, the rifle will weight roughly 7.38 lbs vs 6.92 stock. A difference of .46 lbs.
The 11 inch Troy TRX extreme (which is the size I would get) plus gas block weighs 11.43oz total making the rifle weight 7.07lbs.
So the difference between the CASV-EL and 11" TRX is .31lbs
Now I plan to put on a 1-4 scope with mount that will weigh 1.73lbs. So the gun will end up being around 9.11lbs with the CASV-EL vs 8.8lbs with the TRX.
The 9" TRX weighs 1.47oz less.
Thanks to rob_s for this chart as well:D
:headscratch: Honestly kind of hard for me to follow the above. :) But, do have a couple of questions.
Why would you be replacing the FSP with the Vltor? Or did I misunderstand? If you are planning on replacing the FSP regardless then I don’t know why the Vltor is still in the running. Its primary appeal would have been zero modification while allowing the hand a bit further out. If you are willing to modify the FSP there are better options.
Are you off of not wanting to modify now?
Have you switched gears to looking for the lightest solution that meets your needs?
:headscratch: Honestly kind of hard for me to follow the above. :) But, do have a couple of questions.
Why would you be replacing the FSP with the Vltor? Or did I misunderstand? If you are planning on replacing the FSP regardless then I don’t know why the Vltor is still in the running. Its primary appeal would have been zero modification while allowing the hand a bit further out. If you are willing to modify the FSP there are better options.
Are you off of not wanting to modify now?
Have you switched gears to looking for the lightest solution that meets your needs?
I would not be removing the FSP just the side mount sling attachment that came with the rifle http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ476PaFiP9C7DdfJz3YMF_dhXH_roQLMYCL6GG8ZXniKYJBL1E
I don't want to modify. I was just demonstrating the actual weight gain between the 2 options which is only .31 LBS.
If you look at my OP I probably will build a dedicated 18" upper if I get into 3 gun. The Colt upper will be then relegated to a self defense rifle so the rail will not be wasted. I would also move the scope to the 18" upper.
evolixsurf
03-23-11, 17:07
just get a DD omega 7 and forget it. you ca use your stock delta ring.
It's not like the 6920 is particularly collectible. That's the only reason I wouldn't modify one. I started with the DD Omega because I didn't want the hassle of disassembling my rifle out of pure laziness. Since then I changed my mind, chopped my front sight down and put a TRX Extreme on. I like the small size and light weight.
I would not be removing the FSP just the side mount sling attachment that came with the rifle...
Ahh, got ya. I was misunderstanding the following-
I would be removing the front sight mount...
So anyway this feels like a bit of tail chasing. If you are locked into no mods to the colt as well as wanting a bit more reach- Well, the Vltor is your only option as far as I can recall.
The small bit of reach gained by the Vltor wouldn't be worth the issues I see as drawbacks (for me). If you were to let go of the reach requirement the DD Omega would keep you stock, and is a quality lightweight setup.
If you keep the added reach requirement but are willing to make non permanent reversible mods you have several options in FSP rails. DD RIS FSP, OmegaX FSP, Light FSP, Troy...
If you are willing to shave the FSP- well, there's a whole world of longer rails open to you :D
Don't take me wrong, I'm not hating on the Vltor, at one time I had one. They are quality kit, just not what I would pick setting something up today. But like I said if you want FF, no mods, AND extra reach, I think its your only option. ;)
ETA- I think you might be missing something on the Vltor Vs TRX Extreme weight issue. I recall my rifle gaining almost exactly 1/2 pound just adding the CASV-EL.
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