If one is none . . . [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

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Preferred User

03-22-11, 23:47

I have to admit right up front my Google-Fu sucked when I was trying to find answers to this question:

If one is none, and two is one (I think that is how it goes) how close does your second or matching rifle have to be to the first?

Does a BCM / DD M4 VI combo = 1? Or does it have to be 2 DD M4s? Can it be a carbine and a middy combo to = 1?

I have an old school A2 and the DD M4 which I am pretty sure does not equate to the 2 = 1 formula, and have dutifully saved my pennies for my next rifle which I would like to be a middy, but the 2 = 1 saying kept rattling around in my head.

Or does having extra BCGs, charging handles and some other spare parts negate the whole equation?

I would appreciate any thoughts.

graffex

03-22-11, 23:54

I don't think the point is having two IDENTICAL rifles, rather having an option if the unforeseeable happens.

strambo

03-23-11, 00:04

I think you are way over-thinking this. Ideally, a spare fighting rifle should be set up similar, but it doesn't need to be exact. Any collapsible stock can be set at whatever LOP is comfortable same as the primary. Use the same VFG setup (or none). Position the light either in the same spot or close (for example, my SBR has an X300 on the top rail I activate with my thumb, my other carbine has a G2 LED in an offset mount on the left side I activate with my thumb...)

Middy vs carbine won't matter. Even if your offhand grip is a few inches forward or rearward on one vs. the other, no biggie.

Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about making a second carbine an exact replica of your DDM4. The DDM4 to A2 is a big difference though...

Anyway, in reality spare parts are fine since you probably wouldn't be able to swap a malfunctioning rifle for a spare in the middle of a home defense/SHTF situation anyway... the spare carbine would come into play at either at a carbine course, or after a situation when you no longer have the damaged (or police confiscated for evidence) one....or to arm a second person in a really bad scenario.

Bubba FAL

03-23-11, 00:42

IMO, the concept is similar, not necessarily same. Common caliber, common parts, mags, controls, etc.

For example, I have 4 FALs. Each is a different variant, but they're all in 7.62N, all take metric mags, internal components are interchangeable, spare parts on hand (carriers, FCG components, various springs etc.) will fit in any of the four. Controls are the same (except for the bolt assist on the Izzy - which isn't used anyway), so I can pick up any of them and it's operation is reflexively familiar to me.

Same can be said for ARs. I have two each in 5.56 and 6.8 calibers. Though they differ in some areas such as barrel length, hand guards, etc., they all have the same basic components. Three have the same 2-stage triggers, the fourth has a different brand of trigger, but it also is a 2-stage, so the basic "feel" is the same. I can drop the OEM triggers back into them all, and the various spare parts I have on hand will fit them all.

Now, if you're talking handguns, to me the concept means having a BUG immediately accessible in case the primary fails. No mechanical device is 100% perfect - it will fail sometime, so the best alternative in such a scenario is to have a backup.

jklaughrey

03-23-11, 00:50

Sometimes this philosophy is even found in other parts of life. A back-up in many things is sound advice. Even when dealing with your women...

7840

asme

03-23-11, 00:52

Here's my take on the whole thing it based on what I've done.

I have two Glock 17s set up identically. They have the same sights, same trigger, same aftermarket fiddly bits and so on. There's no "primary" or "backup" as I shoot them interchangeably and they have more or less equal round counts. Whenever practical, they both come to every shooting-related outing on which I embark.

My thinking is that if I'm shooting one and even the smallest thing goes wrong with it, I can very easily switch over to the other one. I don't have to futz about with diagnosing and remedying the problem on the spot to keep shooting, I just go to the other gun and fix the problem later. Time is expensive, volumes of ammo are expensive, and classes are expensive , but an identical backup is a drop in the bucket if it saves me from just one headache. If I'm in a class two states over that I paid quite a bit for, I don't lose any time if something goes wrong, and that's worth quite a bit.

That's pretty much my 2 cents.

Preferred User

03-24-11, 00:01

Thanks all. My misunderstanding was making me take things way to literally. The great thing is I feel pretty comfortable setting up one for entry and the other for perimeter and knowing that I can switch in a pinch.

markm

03-24-11, 08:42

None of my rifles are clones of each other. I could appreciate the idea behind doing so, but I've never felt it necessary.

sapper36

03-24-11, 10:25

I started out just wanting two similar rifles. However my OCD gradually kicked in and I ended up with these LMT's.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii126/sapper5353/DSC_0043.jpg?t=1300979982

I am glad that they are the way they are, however I will never make similar rifles again. I feel that these are suitable for everything from house fighting out to 300 yards very easy and up to 500 yards from a good prone position with some time. My next will be a SPR type build, but only one:D

Beat Trash

03-24-11, 12:37

Sometimes this philosophy is even found in other parts of life. A back-up in many things is sound advice. Even when dealing with your women...

OK, same question, if your primary is a Blond, does your backup have to be a blond? Or can a redhead substitute?

Beat Trash

03-24-11, 12:42

I'd want my back up AR to be as similar as possible. But once this is done, then it give you a reason to justify to yourself the building of your 3rd gun, then your 4th...

My primary and backup guns are 6920's. These are the only AR's that I duplicate. The rest are for a specific need, for a fun gun when I'm feeling "retro", or for "just because".

jklaughrey

03-24-11, 12:51

OK, same question, if your primary is a Blond, does your backup have to be a blond? Or can a redhead substitute?

Does this work....?
7849

KAC Lover

03-24-11, 13:14

If two is one and one is none then by the transitive property shouldn't two equal none? :sarcastic:

kwelz

03-24-11, 13:59

Does this work....?
7849

.....

I need a cold shower..

Thomas M-4

03-24-11, 14:29

Doc Safari

03-24-11, 14:32

I believe in having a spare in case your primary weapon goes down. I never believed they had to be identical except for the controls. I make sure the controls are the same for both, whether we are talking about optics, safeties, back up sights, or anything else just so you don't fumble the knobs and switches on your secondary weapon because you are used to them being different on your primary weapon.

Iraq Ninja

03-24-11, 14:50

If this saying was not so poetic, it would not be so popular.

One is one and two is two.

The original idea was based around the idea of guns. Any guns, not matched sets. Unless you carry one of your carbines slung across you back, then you may be missing the point of it all.

jklaughrey

03-24-11, 15:18

Guns are like condoms...You always enter hostile territory with 2.

Beat Trash

03-24-11, 18:04

Does this work....?
7849

Hmmm... Uh... Why... Yes it does...

Moose-Knuckle

03-24-11, 20:51

If one is none, and two is one (I think that is how it goes) how close does your second or matching rifle have to be to the first?

"Two is one and one is none". Old adage hailing from the Force Recon ranks. Emphasis on team work.

My father raised me to have at least two rifles for defensive weapons. That way if your primary goes tits up you still have a candle in the wind. As for matching, IMHO the rifles do not need to be identical to one another. I'm more concerned with caliber and magazine commonality (example M16A2 & M4).

citizensoldier16

03-24-11, 22:49

Old adage from Force Recon? Blackbeard would beg to differ...

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/emtjmd216/blackbeard.jpg

Dirtyboy333

03-25-11, 01:15

1 is 1 and 2 is 2. If 1 is nOne then I guess I might as well quit carrying my G23 around for Ccw.

I like variety and don't have much money (college loans) so I don't have matching anything.

Moose-Knuckle

03-25-11, 01:39

Old adage from Force Recon? Blackbeard would beg to differ...

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/emtjmd216/blackbeard.jpg

Well if would, then I'd surmise he had read the second chapter of the book of Joshua and the seventh chapter of the book of Judges.