View Full Version : How often to clean the barrel?
How often do you clean the barrel on your precision rifle?
I hardly ever clean my carbines and non precision rifles, but I don't want fouling to cause bigger groups. I also want the rifle to shoot as consistent as possible range trip to range trip. I think that if I clean after every range trip I will have to shoot fouling shots before it's good to go again, is this true or a myth?
Right now I have about 150 rounds through my rifle since the last cleaning and I am debating on cleaning it now or waiting at least another 100 rounds. I was out yesterday and shot great groups so I am thinking I will just hold off for a while assuming it won't hurt the accuracy over the long run.
Belmont31R
03-23-11, 22:48
You don't need to clean the barrel as much as you think you do. I'd say every 1k at most. Some barrels take to not being cleaned often better than others depending on how it takes fouling.
The guys at Rifles Only (if you don't know, these guys are the shit when it comes to precision rifle) clean their rifles when they start to see a decrease in their accuracy. This can be several thousand rounds. And they don't go freaking insane about the cleaning when they do it.
Even benchrest guys aren't out to remove the copper and carbon, only the powder. If you keep cleaning it hard, you never know where you're at. After years of wondering, I've basically quit cleaning...
Thanks for the confirmation. I can't remember the last time I cleaned my non precision rifles so I am a fan of not cleaning if it's not needed.
I am glad to hear precision rifles are in the same boat. It seems things would stay more consistent the less you clean.
Hmm, food for thought. I clean my rifle barrels after every time I shoot. Sounds like I should skip a few times.
How much a rifle needs to be cleaned to maintain best accuracy is dependent on the individual rifle
NavyDavy55
03-24-11, 13:31
I run a bore snake down the barrel of my Rem 700 SPS Tactical after every range trip.
Littlelebowski
03-24-11, 14:31
Clean when accuracy drops off.
Hmm, food for thought. I clean my rifle barrels after every time I shoot. Sounds like I should skip a few times.
So do I, I'm not gonna try and pink steak or bare chest it in regards to cleaning and maintaining my rifles like so many claim to do....I clean every rifle be it precision or otherwise, the moment I have the adequate free time to do so. I most certainly always clean a high dollar match SS barrel after each time out with it.
If you bought a premium match SS grade barrel with very few tooling marks and such than it literally takes no time at all. Shitty barrels w. bad tooling marks can take forever to get all the copper and stuff out.
I exclusively use Hobbes Elite/Mpro7 for cleaning because it's cleaning effects compound upon each additional application whereas it's cleaning efficiency is enhanced and the amount of time required is dramatically reduced.
Littlelebowski
03-24-11, 14:38
I've tried cleaning and I've tried not cleaning. Those of you that clean, tell us exactly when accuracy drops off from not cleaning. I've never cleaned my way into accuracy.
Again this comes back to the fact that most people are not interested in evaluating true precision/accuracy in an AR platform and thereby cannot even discern differences of 1/4"-1/2" in their groups or targets to know when their accuracy is tailing off.
A MK12's practical accuracy down range as measured in torso or man sized target hit's and misses is not really being affected at all by running a barrel w. 1-2k rds. already through the tube.... now if you take that same MK12 to the range and start trying to either shoot tiny groups @ 100yds or ring smaller pieces of steel out at 600yds your gonna see the accuracy tail off faster than you would in the first example.
In that situation I would clean when I couldn't hit the smaller pieces of steel at 600yds. I think 1-2k is a little much, but I would think 500 rounds is well within reason for the barrel to continue to out shoot me. It seems kind of like a judgement call for the most part as to when accuracy falls off.
Littlelebowski
03-24-11, 16:34
Again this comes back to the fact that most people are not interested in evaluating true precision/accuracy in an AR platform and thereby cannot even discern differences of 1/4"-1/2" in their groups or targets to know when their accuracy is tailing off.
A MK12's practical accuracy down range as measured in torso or man sized target hit's and misses is not really being affected at all by running a barrel w. 1-2k rds. already through the tube.... now if you take that same MK12 to the range and start trying to either shoot tiny groups @ 100yds or ring smaller pieces of steel out at 600yds your gonna see the accuracy tail off faster than you would in the first example.
So, back to my question. At approximately what round count does it drop off?
I'm not trying to be an ass here; I am going off of what several SMEs in this field have told me. New guy in charge of Magpul's Precision rifle training (Caylen Wojcik), an 8542 (my brother), Rifles Only instructors, and so on. I have also been unable to find the benefit to obsessive cleaning when shooting long range.
Littlelebowski
03-24-11, 16:43
It's worth repeating from an SME and an IP (not on this site). Frank AKA LowLight of Rifle's Only and SnipersHide.
I tend to clean my barrels much less then most but still manage well over 10,000 rounds staying below an MOA at 100 yards. I recently rebarreled my GAP Harbinger with a Broughton .30 cal barrel after it had what I conservatively estimated 12k rounds down the rifle. It was just about hovering at .75" at 100 yards. According to GAP it was worn about 1/4" in the throat.
At Rifles Only the SHR #50 had in excess of 15,000 rounds through it before changing the barrel with no break in and very little cleaning. It too was shooting about .75" when the action would cock the bolt. GAP reported about 4" of rifling missing from in front of the throat.
My Werewolf with a Bartlein Barrel has about 6k rounds currently through it, no break in, and no issue with accuracy or fouling, it shoots a solid 1/2 MOA.
The Gladius, about 3k rounds through it hits like a hammer, very little cleaning and no break in.
None of my gas guns have had their barrels broken in either, that is 3, a POF, a GAP with a Rock Creek and a Bartlein. No issues, very accurate and no fouling.
I also spoke with Tac Ops on the subject, and he does not believe in breaking in a barrel, Mike R does not recommend any form of break in, and does his test firing without doing so. So there is another voice in the mix that after years of experience does not feel there is any merit to the process. He did mention, as others have as well, that it's a bit of a pain in the ass because most customers expect some form of guidance and he simply recommends they shoot more and clean less, much to their chagrin.
So while data may not be available with hard and fast evidence, I have quite a bit of rounds downrange with a variety of similarly chambered 308s from a variety of makers and my results as well as opinions appear to be all the same. Clean less, shoot more and don't sweat the dogma published in the name of Barrel Break In.
It's worth repeating from an SME and an IP (not on this site). Frank AKA LowLight of Rifle's Only and SnipersHide.
That is really interesting. Sounds like I won't be cleaning for a while if I keep shooting roughly 100 rounds per range trip. It makes more sense to me to continue shooting a dirty barrel than excessively cleaning and risk damage to the barrel. (i.e. damaging the crown)
Belmont31R
03-24-11, 16:55
That is really interesting. Sounds like I won't be cleaning for a while if I keep shooting roughly 100 rounds per range trip. It makes more sense to me to continue shooting a dirty barrel than excessively cleaning and risk damage to the barrel. (i.e. damaging the crown)
I've only cleaned my EMC's barrel once at 2k rounds and it now has over 3k through it. I didn't clean it even taking it out of the box. I just put a new optic on it 2 weeks ago which required zero'ing, and it shot just as well as when it was brand new.
Even then my barrel cleaning is just a foaming cleaner, leave it in for about 10 minutes, rinse it out with brake cleaner, and its done. I rarely use a rod, patches, brushes, and solvent.
Only once have I experienced an accuracy drop off from lack of cleaning, and that was a Noveske Afghan I had around 2007. It had around 5k with no cleaning. I went from around 1MOA average when new to about 2-3". It just suddenly dropped off. Cleaned it for about 30 minutes, and it went back to shooting around MOA.
Alaskapopo
03-25-11, 02:52
Damn I clean my precison AR' barrels after every range visit but it does not take me that long. Some interesting posts here. I may have to re think what I am doing.
pat
I know that my AR, which has about 1200 rounds through it, has been cleaned about every 300 rounds give or take. My thinking is not so much worried about copper and powder buildup but I worry about corrosion of the barrel. So I clean it decently and then hit it with a light oil and patch. Yeah I know that the barrel is CL but still nags at me.
Of course this is not a precision setup either.
Littlelebowski
03-25-11, 09:40
This (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26518) is my brother whose advice I am following. 8541 and 8542, 2 combat tours in Iraq as a Marine Scout Sniper and one of the very first Marine Scout Snipers to use the SR25 in battle (Fallujah, video of him using at at above link).
Also Caylen Wojcik, news about him below:
INTRODUCING MAGPUL DYNAMICS PRECISION RIFLE INSTRUCTION
Magpul Dynamics is pleased to announce the addition of precision rifle courses through the instruction of former U.S. Marine Corps Scout/Sniper instructor, Caylen Wojcik.
In addition to his role as an instructor at the Scout/Sniper Basic Course at Camp Pendleton, California, Caylen has real world operational experience in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. During his 2004 deployment, Caylen's platoon executed hundreds of scout/sniper missions, and participated in Operation Phantom Fury; a full-scale assault on the insurgent-held city of Fallujah. Caylan sustained severe injuries as a result of enemy rocket fire during the assault on Fallujah, prematurely ending his career as a United States Marine.
With his combat experience and knowledge as both a military and civilian instructor, Caylen is a welcome addition to the Magpul Dynamics team. Whether you're an expert or a novice, our instructors are uniquely qualified to increase students' efficiency in mindset, fundamentals, and stress conditioning in our core areas of instruction. With courses ranging from basic weapon manipulation, to advanced dynamic assault, and airborne operations, Magpul Dynamics pushes every student to find their failure point, and develop the skills needed to excel.
Again this comes back to the fact that most people are not interested in evaluating true precision/accuracy in an AR platform and thereby cannot even discern differences of 1/4"-1/2" in their groups or targets to know when their accuracy is tailing off.
A MK12's practical accuracy down range as measured in torso or man sized target hit's and misses is not really being affected at all by running a barrel w. 1-2k rds. already through the tube.... now if you take that same MK12 to the range and start trying to either shoot tiny groups @ 100yds or ring smaller pieces of steel out at 600yds your gonna see the accuracy tail off faster than you would in the first example.
THIS MAN HAS IT RIGHT .......This is the precision forum, is it not? I can understand why a few posts later he got disgusted and sarcastically stated that evidently he must know nothin!
If you want to shoot your rifle through the tightest groups possible. (ie; "precision") then do what the competition shooters do at competition; Clean your rifle! Bolt action competition shooters will clean their barrels as frequently as every 20 or so shots. When I'm seeking precision 1/2" groups, I clean my A15 every 30-40 rounds. I have seen accuracy drop off in less then 60 rounds and don't wait that long. It doesn't take a genious to uderstand that making a bullet pass through the carbon and crap build-up in a tiny .224 bore that was left by the previous 56 rounds is going to affect its ccuracy.
Competition or no competition, I don't know why anybody would let their rifle go for hundreds of rounds without a cleaning unless they're lazy.....or they are our brave infantry men in the midst of battle. If a guy keeps his home, yard, and car clean, I'll bet you a dollar to a donut hole that he's not going to treat his AR any different.....the same for the reverse.
Ok....time to pile on me! :suicide2:
EDIT: By coincidence, TRIDENT82 was posting at the same time I was posting this: What we both been saying; CLEAN FREQUENTLY...if it's precision you seek.
Littlelebowski
03-25-11, 10:29
Trident82, I thought you were going to think about what was posted? Instead you're cherry picking stuff from a benchrest site to support your position.
Clean when accuracy drops off.
Yeah, that is a lot of cherry picking, and the same can be done on both sid. Lots of dancing around the topic due to not having all the constants on the table. As I think I said above, BR aren't trying to get all the copper out, since then they'd have to re-break-in the barrel (one shot, clean. One shot, clean)! All those tiny pores get filled in with something. By suggesting to clean without saying how and to what extent is likely counter-productive.
I know this is the 'precision' rifle forum but this argument (for and against cleaning often) can also be applied to any rifle, no?
Littlelebowski
03-25-11, 11:21
VaniB, do you know anything about Rifles Only? They host bolt action competitions quite a bit.
Thomas M-4
03-25-11, 11:54
Please Trident read more into 6mmbr.com
Your quoting barrel manufactures if you read reports from the competitors you will find that a-lot of them don't clean as often as you would think.
F-class shooter
During the first few years I owned the MCRT, I was crazy about cleaning. My log shows that I cleaned the barrel 80 times in the first 998 rounds. That works out to cleaning every dozen rounds! No wonder it took me so long to find the right load! Boy, have I changed my habits. I still clean the barrel, but I run a much higher round count between cleanings than before. Now, I shoot 100-200 rounds before I give the barrel a thorough cleaning. http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek031.html
On some calibers that they shoot 6.5-284 that has only 1000 round barrel life maybe going crazy with the cleaning is beneficial.
If you read through the competitors interviews you will see that there are few who say clean when accuracy drops off.
Littlelebowski
03-25-11, 12:02
6mmbr is such an extreme case - threads on proper bag technique and proper barrel brushing technique. However, you see more and more of those guys cleaning less and when they do clean, using chemicals only, not brushes.
Belmont31R
03-25-11, 13:23
I would just as soon stop shooting than clean every 20 rounds.
RogerinTPA
03-25-11, 19:03
I know this is the 'precision' rifle forum but this argument (for and against cleaning often) can also be applied to any rifle, no?
Agreed.
After shooting on precision rifle teams, both small and large bore all the way to Camp Perry, for many years, I can honestly say that anyone who calls themselves an "expert" while advocating cleaning the shit out of their weapon, without a shred of evidence, is a victim of their own, and whom they associate with, dogma/BS. I've never cleaned a precision weapon (match grade .22, M-16 or M1A) during the entire shooting season and after many thousands of rounds, except to clean the crud off the bolt face and chamber. Guess what? I was still getting 10s and Xs all the way out to 1000Ms throughout the season. I've only had to fine tune the zero due to a significant environmental change (elevation, temperature, cloudy or sunny day (lights up/sights up)), and only by a few clicks. Most people cannot perform to the degree of accuracy that a weapon is capable of, whether it's precision or non-precision. I don't know what this obsession is with turning a stock rifle into a precision weapon when most don't have the skill to take advantage of it, or a real need for that type of precision. I am perfectly satisfied with a stock GI trigger (Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, Ect...). Tricking out your AR with precision triggers, barrels and BCGs, will not make you a better shooter unless you have the skills to accompany it. It has been said time and time again, it is the 'singer" and not the "song". If anyone feels a need to scrub scrub scrub due to your particular "click's" dogma or you will be ostracized from the group, then let your conscious be your guide.
Alaskapopo
03-25-11, 21:36
Agreed.
After shooting on precision rifle teams, both small and large bore all the way to Camp Perry, for many years, I can honestly say that anyone who calls themselves an "expert" while advocating cleaning the shit out of their weapon, without a shred of evidence, is a victim of their own, and whom they associate with, dogma/BS. I've never cleaned a precision weapon (match grade .22, M-16 or M1A) during the entire shooting season and after many thousands of rounds, except to clean the crud off the bolt face and chamber. Guess what? I was still getting 10s and Xs all the way out to 1000Ms throughout the season. I've only had to fine tune the zero due to a significant environmental change (elevation, temperature, cloudy or sunny day (lights up/sights up)), and only by a few clicks. Most people cannot perform to the degree of accuracy that a weapon is capable of, whether it's precision or non-precision. I don't know what this obsession is with turning a stock rifle into a precision weapon when most don't have the skill to take advantage of it, or a real need for that type of precision. I am perfectly satisfied with a stock GI trigger (Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, Ect...). Tricking out your AR with precision triggers, barrels and BCGs, will not make you a better shooter unless you have the skills to accompany it. It has been said time and time again, it is the 'singer" and not the "song". If anyone feels a need to scrub scrub scrub due to your particular "click's" dogma or you will be ostracized from the group, then let your conscious be your guide.
I disagree with regards to trigger. Give a novice shooter a gun with a crap trigger and they will shoot much more poorly than if you give them a gun with a good trigger. Now a skilled shooter will see less of a difference but there is still an edge. I know this from first hand experience both from myself and those I have instructed.
Pat
I've tried cleaning and I've tried not cleaning. Those of you that clean, tell us exactly when accuracy drops off from not cleaning. I've never cleaned my way into accuracy.
this cannot be overstated.
When I first started precision shooting, I cleaned after each range trip. I clean when it suits me now and I have seen NO loss in accuracy. I am shooting more and cleaning less.
I clean my guns if I dont think I'll be doing any shooting any time soon. I dont bother If I'm going out the next day or weekend to shoot again. Like many people here have said. Ive never noticed a big change in accuracy because I didnt clean the rifle. And, when I do clean it, its more because I like things clean more than because I think it efffects accuracy.
A friend of mine has been shooting since before I was in diapers and he told us once on a hunting trip while the rest of us were cleaning our guns that he would clean his gun the day the bullets wouldnt come out of the barrel any more. He doesnt shoot benchrest or targets even and hes never had a problem hitting the game hes was aiming at so he doesnt bother cleaning.
I've tried cleaning and I've tried not cleaning. Those of you that clean, tell us exactly when accuracy drops off from not cleaning. I've never cleaned my way into accuracy.
When I shot precision class, precision accuracy started to drop off at about 30 or 40 rounds. We cleaned.... fouled the barrel back into zero with 3 shots on my gun IIRC. Cleaning definitely brought the barrel back into improved groups.
(this was with a Shilen 1/9 .223 barrel in a Rem 700 action.)
Littlelebowski
04-20-11, 12:45
When I shot precision class, precision accuracy started to drop off at about 30 or 40 rounds. We cleaned.... fouled the barrel back into zero with 3 shots on my gun IIRC. Cleaning definitely brought the barrel back into improved groups.
(this was with a Shilen 1/9 .223 barrel in a Rem 700 action.)
That's what I'm talking about! Data!
I've never cleaned my way into accuracy myself. There was a time I thought I had but it turned out to be shooter fatigue.
Littlelebowski
04-20-11, 14:49
Except you never told us when accuracy dropped for you. As far as this being a part of the precision world, I've posted stuff from SMEs in our last argument over this that directly contradicted you. I believe that one was more on the moronic idea of barrel "break in" at home but the cleaning topic came up.
Data is good. Provide some.
Indeed... if you're not trying to stack holes, you're not likely to notice it very much.
It's been a few years now and I can't remember how much the accuracy dropped off... but it was undeniably recaptured after cleaning the barrel.
(Ammo was 69gr Match Win Ranger)
polydeuces
05-06-11, 18:35
Good to see my initial gut-feel was right - don't much like cleaning my rifle, let alone the barrel. Because really, it takes away from the time I should be shooting.
I only started getting into the precision rifle shooting game 4 years ago. I started with a bone stock Remington 5R and a log book. I cleaned about every 20-50 rds and couldn't figure why my accuracy was hovering around 1.25 MOA. Read a little here and there and decided to stop cleaning so much and decided not to clean "Until accuracy dropped off" Doing so dropped my group average to about .75 MOA where it stayed for 1400 rounds. I had the rifle blueprinted, action squared and all that good stuff and it is a solid .50 MOA. Another 600 rounds and accuracy has not dropped off yet and I have no intention of "cleaning" the barrel. I do wipe down the bolt, lube it and twist a mop into the chamber but thats it.
My 6.5 Grendel (Shilen barrel) has been cleaned twice and accuracy stays at about .50-.75 MOA until I clean it then it goes up to 1 MOA until I have 10 rounds through the clean barrel then back to .50-.75 MOA.
I do clean the BCG and chamber when it gets dirty.
My MK12 Mod 0 (Douglas Barrel) runs a OPS 12th 100% of the time so it gets dirty quicker. I clean the BGC and chamber about every 500 rounds. Accuracy stays in the vicinity of .75-1 MOA unless I scrub the bore and then it jumps to about 1.25 MOA. Shoot 20 rds and It's back to .75-1 MOA.
These statements are made with info from my log books and not made blind. My accuracy is better when the barrels are dirty/fouled.
I guess I must have crappy barrels that need copper fouling but thats OK with me. All of them can bang steel way the hell out there! and I can do a lot more of it because I'm not scrubbin' the guns.
Oh ya, What Lil L said "CLEAN WHEN ACCURACY DROPS OFF"
Until that day,
Darkop
QuietShootr
05-23-11, 13:35
I used to be a compulsive cleaner with my precision rifles.
I just started off a new .300 Win Mag last week, and I've been persuaded to try a completely different routine: NO brushing at all, and patch/chemical clean only at 100 rounds after the first 20 (which was shoot one, then wet patch, then dry patch).
I will report back once I have more data on this particular rifle.
I never clean the barrels my small bore guns. They get a bore snake every once in a while, but that's it. My service rifle barrel gets cleaned once a year, at the end of the season. It takes four or five rounds to foul it once it's clean, but then it holds zero and group size until it's time for another cleaning. I don't shoot enough bolt gun to have noticed if my groups are getting larger with time.
Recent testing on my precision m4, (I keep a log book, which is kind of nice for this type of stuff), showed that my barrel would stop grouping at about 165 rounds, and then (after cleaning), would take about 8 rounds to start shooting again. But, as a rule, I don't clean until the groups go south. Over cleaning is probably as bad as not cleaning at all.
Littlelebowski
06-09-11, 10:44
Recent testing on my precision m4, (I keep a log book, which is kind of nice for this type of stuff), showed that my barrel would stop grouping at about 165 rounds, and then (after cleaning), would take about 8 rounds to start shooting again. But, as a rule, I don't clean until the groups go south. Over cleaning is probably as bad as not cleaning at all.
I approve of this ^^^. Quantifiable data!
From this link.... 40-50 rounds... maybe a little more after 200 rounds on a precision barrel. This matches my experience pretty close... with about 3 rounds to foul the bore back into its groove.
http://www.hps-tr.com/guidance/barrel_runningIn.asp
Once the barrel has been successfully run-in, regular cleaning should occur after approximately every 40-50 rounds. The risk of metallic fouling is still very high up to about 150-200 rounds fired so it is important that attention is paid to any signs of it occurring, usually experienced by the opening up of a group or random stray shots that fall outside the group. Adhering to a cleaning after every 40-50 rounds fired is strongly recommended during this period. After the 200 rounds fired mark, it is possible to increase the number of shots before cleaning, but regular cleaning should always be part of the routine.
.
If I can get off work early today, I will shoot 100 rounds (or so). The last 10-rounds I shoot today, I will remove my T-1 and install a 2.5-8X Leupold and shoot a 10-round group.
Then, I will thoroughly clean my rifle this weekend.
The next time I shoot, I'll probably shoot 10 rounds (to foul the barrel) and them shoot 10-round for a group to see if there is an improvement.
Before today, the last time I cleaned this rifle was 2418 rounds ago.
We'll see....
.
What barrel are you testing? I wouldn't expect to find much on a gun barrel that you run an RDS on. :confused:
What barrel are you testing? I wouldn't expect to find much on a gun barrel that you run an RDS on. :confused:
================================
It is a 16" CL Noveske.
I haven't seen much difference with the T-1 so far and I don't think I could tell much difference with a T-1 doing a before and after cleaning comparison. That's why I want to try the 2.5-8X, just to see if I notice a difference.
Just doing it for the heck of it. Kind of giving myself my own answer to the OP's question.
But maybe it's just me...
.
================================
It is a 16" CL Noveske.
I haven't seen much difference with the T-1 so far and I don't think I could tell much difference with a T-1 doing a before and after cleaning comparison. That's why I want to try the 2.5-8X, just to see if I notice a difference.
Just doing it for the heck of it. Kind of giving myself my own answer to the OP's question.
But maybe it's just me...
.
Interested in the results only because I just built an upper with a similar barrel (Centurion 16" CL). Interested if there is any sort of advantage to cleaning vs. letting them go for 1k. I haven't done any testing on my barrel but want to know how I should approach it. I plan on running 75-77gr (mix of Hornady, SMK, and Nosler) handloads through it to see if it can do 1 MOA.*
*Yes I am aware of Molon's test with an N4. He never published (not sure if he tried it) any results with 77gr handloads, only his petload which I believe was 55gr load developed for a different rifle.
It is a 16" CL Noveske.
Noveske is good stuff for sure... but I don't think a Chrome Lined barrel is going to show too much difference.... not even a Sabre Defence.
But I'd be interested to see what you get too.
QuietShootr
06-09-11, 13:01
I have discovered with my new .300 that it seems to want to be cleaned about every 70 rounds. Accuracy started to fall off a bit right about then. I have wet-patched it and was still getting black shit after a couple of days of wet-patching and letting it sit, so I gave it four strokes with a brass-core bronze brush. The patch comes clean now, thereby proving that the previous 'scrub till you get Popeye arm' regimen was unnecessary.
I ordered some nylon brass-core brushes from Brownells today just for this purpose. I don't anticipate more than four or five strokes per cleaning session. The powder residue just isn't all coming out with patches only. All that said, I think brushing as little as possible is probably the best way to go.
I ordered some nylon brass-core brushes from Brownells today just for this purpose.
From that same site linked above. ;)
3) Phosphor bronze bristle brush or nylon for those who are under the misapprehension that phosphor bronze will have any wearing effect on barrel steel.
QuietShootr
06-09-11, 13:18
From that same site linked above. ;)
I really don't think a brass-cored phosphor bronze brush will hurt a barrel. I'm just trying a different regimen with this barrel than with previous guns, since I used to be a compulsive cleaner. If this gun proves to shoot just as accurately without the insane cleaning regimen, then I've saved 2 ounces of Shooter's Choice a week. And if it doesn't, I'll go back to what I used to do before.
QuietShootr
06-09-11, 13:19
I use nylon and brass...no more than 3-4 passes.
Anyone use a tornado brush?
Hell no....they're stainless. No sharp edges, but still, not a good plan to put something harder than your barrel down your barrel.
Littlelebowski
06-09-11, 13:31
I use nylon and brass...no more than 3-4 passes.
Anyone use a tornado brush?
Please slap yourself across the face. No. No steel on steel. Be glad you never asked that question at the Hide or anywhere else serious long range shooters congregate online.
Use chemicals only for the most part. A nylon brush if the chemicals are not getting the job done. You might try a patch wrapped around a nylon brush even. I'd recommend Montana Copper Killer. I'd also recommend a class even more.
QuietShootr
06-09-11, 13:38
Please slap yourself across the face. No. No steel on steel. Be glad you never asked that question at the Hide or anywhere else serious long range shooters congregate online.
Use chemicals only for the most part. A nylon brush if the chemicals are not getting the job done. You might try a patch wrapped around a nylon brush even. I'd recommend Montana Copper Killer. I'd also recommend a class even more.
Now dammit, I was trying to turn over a new leaf and be nice. :D
Anyone use a tornado brush?
Aren't those for getting slug lead out of a smooth bore shotgun?
Littlelebowski
06-09-11, 14:11
Trident, stop thinking that you can clean your way into something. Stick with what you have.
Littlelebowski
06-09-11, 14:15
Is this a f**king joke???
Why the hell would I slap myself across the face while asking a question on the silly internet.
You got Rob_S type f**king issues!
No, it was an expression meant to drive home how silly the tornado brush is. I think rob_s is pretty locked the **** on as far as furthering his skills and thinking outside of the box. He seeks out training and writes about what he learned.
QuietShootr
06-09-11, 14:18
Trident, got a question. Were you in the military?
QuietShootr
06-09-11, 14:35
Being a smartass doesn't really work....I asked a ****ing question on a forum that is supposed to be a knowledge resource base and I got a smartass cool guy reply that was uncalled for.
If I can't learn here anymore.. aka ask ****ing questions without upsetting the silly internet coolguys, than by all means I will dip the hell out.
I asked a legitimate question and it warranted a legitimate answer, Ive been hear long enough to warrant a little more respect than being told to ****ing slap myself across the face.
Whoa. Easy, dude. LL was explaining to you, in Marine fashion, where you went wrong. Believe that or not, that wasn't a personal attack. If I suggested scrubbing a precision rifle's bore with a steel brush I would have gotten the same response, there's no doubt in my mind. I believe he was just trying to emphatically explain to you that this was a VERY bad idea.
Cool?
I believe he was just trying to emphatically explain to you that this was a VERY bad idea.
Cool?
I agree. It didn't come off as hostile.. just passionate. Calm down, Babe. ;)
QuietShootr
06-09-11, 14:50
I honestly ****ing over it:) Cool?
I guess I just need to run a sig line that's say's I'M NOT A ****ING PROFESSIONAL...LEARNING IN PROGRESS
One day I will have it all figured out, I will return to take my place as a coolguy on the silly internet and be a dick to all the newbs....the cycle of internet life:jester:
Tell you what - next time I say something stupid about an MRP you can stomp a mudhole in my ass. That's not going to stop me from asking a question, though.
Littlelebowski
06-09-11, 15:47
It's honestly all good, It's just a bitch to spend any time on here anymore.
I admit now for all the world to here...I don't know shit about these guns, I'm not a ****ing expert on any one subject matter let alone M4C as a whole.
I'm done derailing this thread, I'm just not gonna ever ****ing slap myself in the face cause some noise on the silly internet!
You're taking shit personal again. Seriously, you're surprised when you throw up tons of videos showing you shooting and you get criticized? I once saw Zak Smith get criticized because of a pic showing him doing force on force and his foot placement while moving.
Honestly dude, you're giving it a damned good try and obviously improving yourself, your shooting, and definitely giving back to the online shooting community. You certainly come across as having more toys than training. Take a class. You will enjoy it and it will help a lot.
Thomas M-4
06-09-11, 16:01
I use nylon and brass...no more than 3-4 passes.
Anyone use a tornado brush?
I made the mistake of buying one like 10 yrs ago.
I think I used it once and then through it in the junk drawer.
If I was shooting black-powder guns then I might think about it ,other than that just stick to bronze or nylon brushes.
Lol...thanks for the advice champ, when the hell did we start talking about videos and my "toy" collection?
Trident, that was called a peace pipe. take it as offered. or don't, it's your decision.
but LL's one of the good guys here. no need to make enemies when friends are just as easy to come by...
if[/i] the chemicals are not getting the job done. You might try a patch wrapped around a nylon brush even...
This. Absolutely this.
I think part of the problem when it comes to the question of cleaning is definition. One poster said they never clean, just run a boresnake through the barrel every now and then. To me, running a boresnake through a couple of times is cleaning. With modern ammunition and steels, it's more than enough. That and I like to keep heavy carbon buildup out of trigger housings & such
Littlelebowski
06-11-11, 20:32
Trident, since cleaning is important to you, just yank that quick change barrel, plug on one end and apply Wipe Out foam and accelerator, then plug the other end. Let it set an hour, then boresnake or patch dry, then run one patch of a bore oil through for storage.
Having actually taken classes at Rifles Only, and competed/competing in field matches, it's been my experience that cleaning is for the birds. My Rock 11.25 twist has 350 rounds of 8208/155 smk(2156) since the last cleaning, and still holds true .5 moa. My new comp gun is an AI, and the same load hovers around .6-.75moa with 150 on the barrel so far.
Clean when accuracy opens up, otherwise you are wasting barrel life. Too many people think that cleaning is the answer rather than applying proper fundamentals of marksmanship. Bad groups with a match grade barrel and "excessive" round counts are from the poor shooter, not the barrel needing cleaning.
My cleaning routine, when applicable is to shoot foaming bore cleaner through the barrel, let it sit for 20 minutes, run 4-6 patches through, and go out and shoot again. I clean the bolt whenever it feels gritty or slow.
Stop scrubbing your barrel away while chasing "accuracy". Shoot more. Shoot groups less.
QuietShootr
06-13-11, 07:20
Having actually taken classes at Rifles Only, and competed/competing in field matches, it's been my experience that cleaning is for the birds. My Rock 11.25 twist has 350 rounds of 8208/155 smk(2156) since the last cleaning, and still holds true .5 moa. My new comp gun is an AI, and the same load hovers around .6-.75moa with 150 on the barrel so far.
Clean when accuracy opens up, otherwise you are wasting barrel life. Too many people think that cleaning is the answer rather than applying proper fundamentals of marksmanship. Bad groups with a match grade barrel and "excessive" round counts are from the poor shooter, not the barrel needing cleaning.
My cleaning routine, when applicable is to shoot foaming bore cleaner through the barrel, let it sit for 20 minutes, run 4-6 patches through, and go out and shoot again. I clean the bolt whenever it feels gritty or slow.
Stop scrubbing your barrel away while chasing "accuracy". Shoot more. Shoot groups less.
Are you guys using the Mil-Foam cleaner that Outers was repackaging, or is it some other concoction?
I found with my .300 that I have to push a brush through it 3 or 4 times or the powder fouling never completely comes out. I wet-patched it for three days and was still getting black shit out of it until I brushed it a couple of times, now it's clean as a whistle.
I'm going to see how many rounds I can get through it before it starts opening up again. I will report back.
I use this stuff with good results:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=474487
Spray, leave for 10-20 minutes, run a few patches through, and then go shoot.
According to Jacob Bynum and company, all of that scrubbing is getting rid of copper and fouling in micro groves, etc. that the barrel "wants" to be there.
Your barrel will tell you when it needs to be cleaned. Somebody once wrote that "cleaning your barrel before accuracy falls off is akin to wiping your rear end before you use the restroom". I agree.
Keep us posted on what your barrel shows.
According to Jacob Bynum and company, all of that scrubbing is getting rid of copper and fouling in micro groves, etc. that the barrel "wants" to be there.
That's somewhat right... I mean... it's rare to get a barrel that has a clean cold bore POI that's the same as it's operating zero.
That's why many precision shooters use fouling shots.
Your barrel will tell you when it needs to be cleaned. Somebody once wrote that "cleaning your barrel before accuracy falls off is akin to wiping your rear end before you use the restroom". I agree.
That comparison is hokey and not valid. A barrel is substantially fouled after just one shot. In fact, if you look at your patches after firing one shot through a clean barrel, they look just like they do after 20 shots or more.
According to Jacob Bynum and company, all of that scrubbing is getting rid of copper and fouling in micro groves, etc. that the barrel "wants" to be there.
That's somewhat right... I mean... it's rare to get a barrel that has a clean cold bore POI that's the same as it's operating zero.
That's why many precision shooters use fouling shots.
Your barrel will tell you when it needs to be cleaned. Somebody once wrote that "cleaning your barrel before accuracy falls off is akin to wiping your rear end before you use the restroom". I agree.
That comparison is hokey and not valid. A barrel is substantially fouled after just one shot. In fact, if you look at your patches after firing one shot through a clean barrel, they look just like they do after 20 shots or more.
Sounds like that person only wipes his ass after severals dumps.
QuietShootr
06-13-11, 08:33
Sounds like that person only wipes his ass after severals dumps.
So I should clean my barrel when it's itchy?
So I should clean my barrel when it's itchy?
:D Clean your barrel while you're taking a dump. I like getting two things done at once.
That's somewhat right... I mean... it's rare to get a barrel that has a clean cold bore POI that's the same as it's operating zero.
That's why many precision shooters use fouling shots.
I agree about the fouling on a clean bore.
That comparison is hokey and not valid. A barrel is substantially fouled after just one shot. In fact, if you look at your patches after firing one shot through a clean barrel, they look just like they do after 20 shots or more.
Yes, it is hokey. Let the rifle tell you when it's ready to be cleaned.
there's a difference between the black carbon/powder residue and copper fouling.
I don't think there are any instances that it is beneficial to leave fouling where it "wants" to be in the microgrooves. benchrest shooters clean a bore down to the bare steel removing all traces of copper and carbon. they then fire a few fouling shots before shooting for record as there is a distinct POI shift from a clean and cold bore. but theirs is a different situation than a service rifle.
it's important to remember this is all relative to the operating scope of the use of the weapon and ammo. for an AR with chrome lined barrel shooting NATO ammo, particularly from "field" or unsupported positions, I doubt cleaning is going to have an effect that is outside of the of the original scope of operation until the barrel is so fouled that it is almost occluded.
YMMV but as others have said, let the barrel tell you when it needs to be cleaned.
As far as my research went, properly breaking in a barrel not only smooths out imperfections but also fills the pores with carbon rather than copper. Thus if you clean the crap out of your barrel, you'd need to "break it in" again. I assume fouling shots are an analogous situation. Nowadays I've learned not to worry about all that and just quit cleaning. I discovered hobbies to replace my former bore cleaning therapy.
Nowadays I've learned not to worry about all that and just quit cleaning. I discovered hobbies to replace my former bore cleaning therapy.
That's fine and dandy as long as you're not trying to stack holes. But the reality of trying to shoot precision doesn't allow us that luxury.
An Undocumented Worker
06-13-11, 22:30
Markm, when you clean, how clean are you referring to? Some sort of clp and a few pulls of a boresnake so that a patch comes out reasonably clean.
Or are you talking about breaking out the copper solvent and brushes to get every last trace of copper and carbon out?
According to Jacob Bynum and company, all of that scrubbing is getting rid of copper and fouling in micro groves, etc. that the barrel "wants" to be there.
There are some high power shooters that believe the same thing. The theory is that removing all the copper and other metal fouling from the micro fissures of a precision barrel leads to greater erosion as the metals are reapplied by the fouling shots. Most of these shooters use bore paste to clean their barrels, but they don't go crazy with the stuff. The trick is to establish how clean is clean enough, and then only clean down to that point.
QuietShootr
06-14-11, 06:53
Markm, when you clean, how clean are you referring to? Some sort of clp and a few pulls of a boresnake so that a patch comes out reasonably clean.
Or are you talking about breaking out the copper solvent and brushes to get every last trace of copper and carbon out?
We're talking about precision rifles here, not chrome lined fighting rifles. NEVER use CLP or anything containing Teflon in the bore of a precision rifle. Teflon breaks down under heat and pressure to create hydrogen fluoride (a.k.a. hydrofluoric acid) which can and will pit your barrel.
I'm going to expose the newbie in me, but there is a difference between ''cleaning'' and ''lubing'' correct? What exactly are the degrees of difference?
NEVER use CLP or anything containing Teflon in the bore of a precision rifle.
What exactly is safe to use?
QuietShootr
06-14-11, 07:13
What exactly is safe to use?
Most all solvents are safe to use - it's the lubricants/rust preventatives that get you into trouble. Look at the ingredients of whatever your lube of choice is, if it's a good one, chances are it contains PTFE/Polytetrafluoroethylene/Teflon. Great for everything else, not good in barrels. You want something completely Teflon free for your precision rifle barrel - I don't carry a big stick on this one because the only purpose to have it in the bore is corrosion protection. I have used Shooter's Choice FP-10 (which sucks as a corrosion preventer, imo), Birchwood Casey Sheath (ditto), and right now I'm using some vintage Fiendoil until I run out of it. Not a lot of choices in the PTFE-free lube world.
I've looked at photos of borescoped barrels that have a frosty erosion in the bore from HF etching. Stay away from Teflon in the bore!
...and I should have asked but if I plan on buying a stainless AR upper, this is the advice I should follow correct? Or is there something else about a precision rifle barrel I'm not aware of?
QuietShootr
06-14-11, 07:47
...and I should have asked but if I plan on buying a stainless AR upper, this is the advice I should follow correct? Or is there something else about a precision rifle barrel I'm not aware of?
Correct. And make sure to get a Dewey coated cleaning rod and a good (Sinclair) bore guide.
Correct. And make sure to get a Dewey coated cleaning rod and a good (Sinclair) bore guide.
I use a JP Enterprises AR-15 boreguide, I actually like it a lot it fits right in. I later purchased a Dewey boreguide for a .308 (the LMT MWS) and that works well. If you're going to be shooting multiple calibers the Sinclair is the best bet for your money.
Avoid Sinclair solutions though, Dewey warns against them.
That's fine and dandy as long as you're not trying to stack holes. But the reality of trying to shoot precision doesn't allow us that luxury.
My point was, depending on the barrel, that can mean a lot of rounds. Except in the case of a very experienced shooter like yourself, someone can psyche themselves out into thinking that needs to be every 200 rounds or something, when it may actually only need cleaning at 750 or more. You have a wide audience, here. To those who really know, you're either preaching to the choir or going to end up debating them. Many of the rest have a tendency to clean WAY more than the barrel indicates, NOT to clean less than is needed. That was certainly my tendency before I "saw the light." So I guess I was being devil's advocate.
An Undocumented Worker
06-14-11, 17:39
We're talking about precision rifles here, not chrome lined fighting rifles. NEVER use CLP or anything containing Teflon in the bore of a precision rifle. Teflon breaks down under heat and pressure to create hydrogen fluoride (a.k.a. hydrofluoric acid) which can and will pit your barrel.
While I appreciate this bit of info, it still doesn't address the heart of my question.
Markm, when you clean, how clean are you referring to? Some sort of clp and a few pulls of a boresnake so that a patch comes out reasonably clean.
Or are you talking about breaking out the copper solvent and brushes to get every last trace of copper and carbon out?
I know this is an old thread...but I stumbled across it and my mind is being blown apart.
I have been doing a cleaning after every range trip. I just thought it seemed reasonable...get the gun 'dirty' take it home and clean it. Basic maintenance. I've done this for all my guns.
Now I'm kind of freaking out I may have damaged some barrels due to my OCD newbishness.
Well, I'm absolutely going to try out this no cleaning business and see where that takes me. Between shooting and reloading, cutting out cleaning is a welcome addition.
I am just going to assume that cleaning and lubing the BCG and upper receiver internals is OK...right? I mean, let the bore foul, but keep the other parts cleaned/lubed.
God...I hate finding out about this kind of stuff. It makes me feel I've been doing harm, which of course is not the intent!
Littlelebowski
01-09-12, 13:52
I know this is an old thread...but I stumbled across it and my mind is being blown apart.
I have been doing a cleaning after every range trip. I just thought it seemed reasonable...get the gun 'dirty' take it home and clean it. Basic maintenance. I've done this for all my guns.
Now I'm kind of freaking out I may have damaged some barrels due to my OCD newbishness.
Well, I'm absolutely going to try out this no cleaning business and see where that takes me. Between shooting and reloading, cutting out cleaning is a welcome addition.
I am just going to assume that cleaning and lubing the BCG and upper receiver internals is OK...right? I mean, let the bore foul, but keep the other parts cleaned/lubed.
God...I hate finding out about this kind of stuff. It makes me feel I've been doing harm, which of course is not the intent!
You will notice any problems you may have created by shooting the weapon and checking the groups. Does it run reliably and group well?
Now I'm kind of freaking out I may have damaged some barrels due to my OCD newbishness.
I've never seen a barrel damaged by cleaning. I'm sure some idiot has done this... but I have never seen an example.
I clean the crap out of my precision barrel EVERY time I shoot. I can tell you for sure that thing hasn't suffered. ;)
Littlelebowski
01-09-12, 14:05
I've never seen a barrel damaged by cleaning. I'm sure some idiot has done this... but I have never seen an example.
I clean the crap out of my precision barrel EVERY time I shoot. I can tell you for sure that thing hasn't suffered. ;)
Lots of examples on the web of damaged crowns.
Yeah... I don't doubt it... I just never see it on these forums...
I suppose someone that retarded wouldn't see accuracy drop off anyway. :D
To the guy who's worried that he damaged his barrel by cleaning:
Properly cleaning a barrel won't damage it or cause premature wear. Here are a few ways that barrels are commonly damaged by improper maintenance.
- Using a worn out multi-section cleaning rod. The female side connection points can flare out after a while and scrape the bore.
- Reversing direction in the bore with a wire brush, or bringing the brush back through the bore after it has exited the muzzle.
- Leaving powerful solvents that attack metal in the bore for too long. Let it do its job but get that shit out of there.
Also, use a bore guide. It will keep your rod centered in the bore so as to prevent uneven wear and improper metal to metal contact.
Here's an older post of mine with some product recommendations:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=91357
Littlelebowski
01-09-12, 14:40
Great stuff as usual, a0cake. Thanks for contributing.
I run a bore snake down the barrel of my Rem 700 SPS Tactical after every range trip.
+1 on the bore snake with a little oil. Only takes a few seconds.
I have been guilty of brushing both ways...so I'll be stopping that right away.
Other than that, I think I should be OK as far as using a good rod, bore guide and chemical contact times.
Thanks for the help (I feel a little better)
I'm actually interested in seeing if accuracy (or shot to shot consistency) improve as I reduce cleaning.
+1 on the bore snake with a little oil. Only takes a few seconds.
Our bolt gun smith absolutely hates the bore snake. I guess it's a little better than nothing at all. :confused:
I have been guilty of brushing both ways...so I'll be stopping that right away.
I've brushed both ways like a slide trom bone for ever.... except when a brush is unusually tight.
Never seen any impact on accuracy.... I suppose there could be a good reason not to though....
The problem with "scrubbing" IE cleaning with a brush going both ways is that if the rod is not perfectly centered it's going to wear on the crown unevenly as it's passing back through muzzle to breach (although a bore guide can mitigate some but not all of this).
When it's coming out the way the bullet travels it has no choice but to come out straight.
Plus, if you're scrubbing away and accidentally pull back too early (before the brush is clear of the muzzle) there's a good chance you will get the brush badly stuck in the bore. The notches will dig in and it will be a bitch to get out and you probably will damage your barrel.
My standard method is to push the rod through breach to muzzle. Once the brush protrudes past the muzzle, I unscrew the brush from the rod and then pull the rod back. Hit the brush with a little spray degreaser then drop on some solvent and do it over again.
It takes a few extra seconds, yes, but on a $450 dollar barrel I see no reason to compromise.
While some here may have used the scrubbing method for years with no ill effects, fact is that it's not the best way to do things. If that's a compromise you're willing to make (time vs optimal performance / protection) then that's your prerogative. But understand that it IS a compromise.
As for boresnakes, they're okay for getting major debris (like mud and sand) out of the barrel, but are not acceptable for serious cleaning or decoppering of a barrel. On a carbine with a chrome lined barrel you might not notice a difference and get by just fine with the boresnake. But when a 0.5 MOA difference matters (and can be observed), the snake is insufficient.
For those about to claim that there's no way a rod or brush can damage a steel barrel that's designed to shoot a hot copper coated slug at 3,000 FPS while withstanding blah blah blah degrees Fahrenheit...I invite you to read some of these quotes from some of the best barrel makers in the world.
From Krieger
"Q: Can you damage a barrel during cleaning?
A: ABSOLOUTLY. Damage is possible in many ways including but not limited to the following: · By not using a bore guide. Use a bore guide whenever possible to prevent damage to the throat of the rifling and nicks and scratches to the bore. Always clean from the breech end whenever possible. · Damage to the crown from the cleaning rod. This is the most frequent cleaning damage we see. · Never mix your solvents either in a bottle or in the barrel. You never know how the solvents are going to react with each other or to the steel. You can also damage a barrel from simply over cleaning (cleaning more often than needed) and by the over/improper use of abbrasive cleaners"
From Noveske
"When cleaning, the brush or jag should only travel through the barrel from the breech to the muzzle, the same as the
path of the bullet. Do not ever pull a brush or jag back through the crown of the barrel"
From Bartlein
Always push the brush, Breech to Muzzle. Remove the brush before pulling your rod back through! NEVER pull the brush back over the crown. More damage to a good barrel is done from cleaning than actual shooting. The first to suffer is the crown. The crown is the last thing the bullet touches when it leaves the gun. Any damage here affects accuracy no matter what.
Anybody here think they know more about barrels than these guys???
Sources:
http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/BreakInCleaning.htm
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/FAQ-c1246-wp3352.htm
http://noveskerifleworks.com/impdf/barrelcare.pdf
never seen a barrel damaged from pulling the brush back thru. My question is how could you tell? The soft brass brush has damages the hard steel of the crown. My barrel and crown are painted and I cant tell that there is any uneven wear from pulling it back thru. I am NOT saying its not happening. Not saying that at all. I am saying I have to clean the factory barrel on my rifle, a stockish Remington 700 Sendero in 300wm, every 100 rounds of so due to groups opening up. I atribute it to the factory bore being rough, but it still shots 1/2 MOA out to 300 or so.
I do plan to replace the barrel soon, its got about 2000 rounds thru it and I want to go to a 22" Broughton 5c with a slightly heavier contour.
Ive tried all methods, clean alot to never. My best advice after years of shooting is to just basically wipe off/out the crown and chamber with clp after shooting also maybe spray down the action with clp and wipe off. Whole process should take 1-2 min. Leave the bore alone. Unless you start noticing your groups opening up dont even worry about it.
If you hate cleaning and accuracy is not suffering then I would suggest a couple options.
1. Bore snake it with a bit of copper and powder solvent on it.
2, Blast the barrel and lugs with Gun Scrubber and then take a single patch and run it down the barrel with a light coat of CLP, Mobil One, or Kroil.....then use a dry mop to dry it up.
Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes and your barrel will be pretty darn close to 100% clean and accuracy should return to normal (if it was off a bit in the first place).
Personally, I give all my weapons a minimal cleaning after each time I shoot more than 50 rounds. Othwerwise, the heat generated will bake carbon and copper deposits on making them that much harder to get out. So, I just spend a couple minutes and get rid of most of it while I can .
Happy shooting.
Littlelebowski
02-28-12, 16:59
I've never seen a barrel damaged by cleaning. I'm sure some idiot has done this... but I have never seen an example.
I clean the crap out of my precision barrel EVERY time I shoot. I can tell you for sure that thing hasn't suffered. ;)
There's plenty of pics of damaged crowns floating around. Check 6mmbr.com
John_Burns
03-02-12, 19:49
I would recommend a thorough barrel cleaning every 300 rounds on a real precision type AR.
Owning a bore scope makes one much less worried about “bore damage” or “crown damage” from shall we say vigorous back and forth bore scrubbing with a bronze brush and some pretty aggressive carbon removers.
Most guys without access to a boresccope simply are guessing on the cleaning issue.
cleaning impedes range time.. wasteful
If you have variances in grouping you've cooked the barrel, have deposits of crap, or are an inconsistent shooter (really who the hell actually gets paid to shoot several times a week).. which takes a lot more investment than most individuals can pay for. Shoot more, theorize less.
John_Burns
03-03-12, 12:19
cleaning impedes range time.. wasteful
If you have variances in grouping you've cooked the barrel, have deposits of crap, or are an inconsistent shooter (really who the hell actually gets paid to shoot several times a week).. which takes a lot more investment than most individuals can pay for. Shoot more, theorize less.
For what it is worth I do get paid to shoot several times a week.:cool:
Littlelebowski
03-03-12, 12:26
cleaning impedes range time.. wasteful
If you have variances in grouping you've cooked the barrel, have deposits of crap, or are an inconsistent shooter (really who the hell actually gets paid to shoot several times a week).. which takes a lot more investment than most individuals can pay for. Shoot more, theorize less.
Bears repeating.....
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John_Burns
03-03-12, 13:44
Well I guess we have different opinions on cleaning schedules but I do base mine on having done more than a little precision long range shooting.
If interested you could throw my name with the term long range shooting into google. You might find my opinion is based way more on shooting and is pretty lite in the theoretical.
Waiting to clean until accuracy has fallen off might be fine if your precision rifle is a range toy. If your precision rifle has a job to do then deferring maintenance means at some your rife will not be up to the task and the way you will find out is through a failure to hit something that you wanted to hit.
Well said John. I totally agree. Range toys don't have to be meticulously cleaned like a duty weapon needs to be. I clean mine as soon as I see any hint of copper build up. The fouling I am not worried about but particle obstruction or deposits can affect accuracy.
I don't shoot with people who are too lazy to take 10 minutes to clean out there duty rig. Who cares about range toys. As far as I'm concerned shoot them until failure but not before you damage the gun.
Happy shooting.
Littlelebowski
03-03-12, 16:20
Well I guess we have different opinions on cleaning schedules but I do base mine on having done more than a little precision long range shooting.
If interested you could throw my name with the term long range shooting into google. You might find my opinion is based way more on shooting and is pretty lite in the theoretical.
Waiting to clean until accuracy has fallen off might be fine if your precision rifle is a range toy. If your precision rifle has a job to do then deferring maintenance means at some your rife will not be up to the task and the way you will find out is through a failure to hit something that you wanted to hit.
You might drop Dano a line privately before thumping your chest about experience......
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