View Full Version : FH or MB on SHTF weapon?
So, I've always been a retro guy, but recently bought an early Colt A2 'M4' marked upper receiver (w/factory M4 cuts) that was built up with an early '95 barrel into an 'early M4'. :D Without getting into a debate about whether early carry handle M4's really existed, this will be my SHTF go to gun. My question is this - I want kind of a vintage look, but want it to be effective first. I've been considering the Battlecomp seriously after reading so much about them, but I like the look and effectiveness of the AAC non-mount Blackout.
Right now I have an older Vortex on the barrel, but since I have to pin it, (14.5) I have to make a decision, so my question is, which would you choose in a SHTF situation: The flash hiding capabilities of the AAC, or the quicker return to POA of the Battlecomp? I am not a LEO kicking in doors, I will more likely be taking aimed shots, possibly in low-light conditions, so now I'm leaning towards the AAC - not to mention that I'm not made of money and the AAC is $100 cheaper. I love the idea of the Battlecomp, but am thinking I may not really need it. I'll try and add a poll. Specs are Colt BCG, Colt upper and barrel, A1 fixed stock, Colt A2 upper, Israeli style sling made from GP strap. Santose IBZ and possibly Colt 3X CH scope. Simple, no-nonsense. What do guys think? Flash hiding or no recoil?
Standard A2 flash hider.
All these internut commandouchers who think that running a vortex or whatever will keep them super stealthy are high on their own ass fumes.
When you're down range of a rifle.... you can see some sort of muzzle flash no matter WTF you put on a barrel. You can see the light from inside the barrel, Darrel.
And as LAV would say... the brakes have no business at all on a fighting gun.
Standard A2 flash hider.
All these internut commandouchers who think that running a vortex or whatever will keep them super stealthy are high on their own ass fumes.
When you're down range of a rifle.... you can see some sort of muzzle flash no matter WTF you put on a barrel. You can see the light from inside the barrel, Darrel.
And as LAV would say... the brakes have no business at all on a fighting gun.
Why does LAV say that? Concussion? What about comps with min side blast like the KAC or BC?
The Battlecomp is good kit. I did not get a chance to fire it, but I saw a guy do a hammered pair on steel, off hand at about 150 yards with a rifle equipped with a battlecomp.
That said, I distinctly remember during a night fire exercise, I looked up and down the firing line and barely seeing any muzzle flashes from the firing line (of about 15 M4s with A2 birdcage flash hiders). No personal experience with respect to battle comps and night fire.
Cincinnatus
03-24-11, 10:39
A lot of muzzle flash depends on powder used.
"All these internut commandouchers who think that running a vortex or whatever will keep them super stealthy are high on their own ass fumes.
When you're down range of a rifle.... you can see some sort of muzzle flash no matter WTF you put on a barrel. You can see the light from inside the barrel, Darrel." --markm
Hillarious!
Mr. Goodtimes
03-24-11, 11:10
I can see positives and negatives to using both. I use a brake and like it. I can deal with the concussion of other shooters brakes just fine as well. I'll admit though that my Surefire brake kicks up a lot of debris when shooting on my side.
Several of your "vintage look" parts detract from the function of a modern fighting carbine. You may need to decide if you are making a retro gun or a serious carbine.
The Vortex you have now is fine. I dislike the idea of an MB on a serious carbine. For real use you may be shooting in an enclosed space, like a hallway, and without earpro.
justin_247
03-24-11, 11:15
I've heard that LAV's attitude towards brakes has somewhat changed as a result of being exposed to the Battlecomp, but that's the only one I know of which he seems OK with. I think this was discussed in one of the posts under the Battlecomp thread detailing information about SHOT.
+1 on the effectiveness of the A2 at night.
Here's what you need:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-A2X-Extended-A2-Flash-Hider-Suppressor-p/bcm%20a2x.htm
It's long enough to make your barrel legal, it's plenty effective, and it's up your alley since you're a retro kinda guy.
I've begun developing a theory about muzzle devices over the last month:
It's not so much how loud it is in decibels, but rather the frequency (pitch, tone, etc) that bothers me. For instance, @ a recent LAV class, I was between 2 shooters in a drill. The rifle on my left was equipped with an AAC SPR-M4 mount (essentially a long Blackout FH) and the rifle to my right was equipped with a Battlecomp. The decibel level (loudness) seemed the same to me (with electronic earpro), but the SPR-M4 mount had an annoying "Ping" to it, wheras the BC had a very low-pitched "Thump" that I found much more pleasant.
This is what I'm having trouble getting people to understand about the Battlecomp:
Me: "It's a comp with no more flash than an A2"
Other guy: "So what, the A2 sucks compared to a Blackout/Phantom/Vortex"
Me: "But none of those have compensating or braking capabilities."
Until recently, muzzle brakes have looked like something that should go on the front of a Barrett 50. They're extremely loud, they create a HUGE fireball, and they kick up dust like crazy.
The Battlecomp has the same muzzle-rise reducing capabilities of most traditional brakes, but is no louder, and has no more flash than an A2 FH, nor does it kick up dust. Everything is a compromise, and the Battlecomp seems to be the best at this time.
The ONLY reason my rifle doesn't currently wear one is that I'm waiting for the verdict on the AAC 51-tooth thing.
If the S has truly HTF.....worrying about which muzzle device I have will be very low on my list of priorities.
I've been on enough night fire ranges to second what markm said, with the exception of the Battlecomp. There has been a lot of good feedback on how effective this device is on keeping the muzzle on target, while at the same time not beating the crap out of you like most muzzle breaks do.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=55004
Why does LAV say that? Concussion? What about comps with min side blast like the KAC or BC?
Muzzle flash being the main reason (which I agree with him on).
I am no fan of MB's EXCEPT for one of the following reasons:
1. You are running a suppressor and want to reduce the amount of wear on your can.
2. You compete in 3 gun and need to shave ONE SECOND off your score in order to win.
I find MB's SUPER annoying and cannot stand to be next to one for more than about 10 minutes.
Why everyone else is running one of these things is beyond me personally and if I could quote one of my favorite instructors; "If you need a MB to control your AR chambered in .223, you might want to hit the gym."
The greatest tool ever given to a shooter to control muzzle climb is their thumb. ;)
C4
The ONLY reason my rifle doesn't currently wear one is that I'm waiting for the verdict on the AAC 51-tooth thing.
Please explain. Is AAC pairing with BattleComp to make a 51 tooth BC design that will work with their suppressors?
I've begun developing a theory about muzzle devices over the last month:
It's not so much how loud it is in decibels, but rather the frequency (pitch, tone, etc) that bothers me. For instance, @ a recent LAV class, I was between 2 shooters in a drill. The rifle on my left was equipped with an AAC SPR-M4 mount (essentially a long Blackout FH) and the rifle to my right was equipped with a Battlecomp. The decibel level (loudness) seemed the same to me (with electronic earpro), but the SPR-M4 mount had an annoying "Ping" to it, wheras the BC had a very low-pitched "Thump" that I found much more pleasant.
This is what I'm having trouble getting people to understand about the Battlecomp:
Me: "It's a comp with no more flash than an A2"
Other guy: "So what, the A2 sucks compared to a Blackout/Phantom/Vortex"
Me: "But none of those have compensating or braking capabilities."
Until recently, muzzle brakes have looked like something that should go on the front of a Barrett 50. They're extremely loud, they create a HUGE fireball, and they kick up dust like crazy.
The Battlecomp has the same muzzle-rise reducing capabilities of most traditional brakes, but is no louder, and has no more flash than an A2 FH, nor does it kick up dust. Everything is a compromise, and the Battlecomp seems to be the best at this time.
The ONLY reason my rifle doesn't currently wear one is that I'm waiting for the verdict on the AAC 51-tooth thing.
The BC and KAC do the best job of any any comp (that I have seen) at reducing flash. With that said, there are many FS's that eliminate flash nearly 100%.
As someone pointed out, the amount of flash also has to do with the powder used. Most of your .Mil and LE loads have a flash retardent in them. Most of your cheap blasting ammo (which is what most everyone uses) does not.
C4
If the S has truly HTF.....worrying about which muzzle device I have will be very low on my list of priorities.
It will be if your flash is telling the enemy where to fire at. ;)
C4
Please explain. Is AAC pairing with BattleComp to make a 51 tooth BC design that will work with their suppressors?
The most current info I have on the subject is that the two parties have been put in contact ;)
The most current info I have on the subject is that the two parties have been put in contact ;)
Verrry interesting...
As someone pointed out, the amount of flash also has to do with the powder used. Most of your .Mil and LE loads have a flash retardent in them. Most of your cheap blasting ammo (which is what most everyone uses) does not.
C4
This is most true and often overlooked. I love when the guy with the Blackout or Vortex tells me that he has 1K rnds of XM193 put up for SHTF. (For those that don't know, XM193 is about the worst flashing ammo I've used and know of)
Pertaining to the subject @ hand:
Try not to strain a knat and swallow a camel. Worrying about the best muzzle device falls way behind mindset, traning, etc. Furthermore, if you have the best flashider in the world, walk out of your bedroom, and blast the wall 10ft away from you with 100+ Lumens of white light, you're blind anyway, forget about your muzzle flash. Everything has to balance.
BushmasterFanBoy
03-24-11, 13:45
Whenever I shot my BC at night, there was definitely a muzzle flash, but not really a fireball. It didn't really have much of an effect in terms of my own vision, but what did was the muzzle smoke. After 5-10 rounds, the air in front of the muzzle was so thick with smoke that the light from my X300 would catch on it, obscuring the target.
I run a comp, and I think its entirely user-preference. If I were worried about muzzle flash, I'd run a Vortex or Blackout. I don't think there's much point in tip-toeing around the fact that any brake is going to increase muzzle flash. It's simply the degree to which the increase in flash and blast is mitigated.
I've made a choice that I want faster follow up shots at the expense of muzzle flash and blast, and the BC reflects the degree to which I'm willing to compromise. Not everyone is going to come to the same conclusion, and I've never been in a gunfight so my opinion obviously isn't golden. I do know that I like being able to shoot quickly and accurately, so my gun is setup for what I know.
Now, for anyone whos BTDT and is reading this thread, how important is muzzle flash suppression? It seems to me that after rounds are exchanged, both parties have a rough idea of where the other guys are firing from and are able to scan for them. What's more, at night, at least for those of us without NODs, white light use is coming into play to ID the target. So by using the light, you've already momentarily advertised your presence, albeit not specifically if you're using the light right. I can see where its advantageous to have a FS in a myriad of circumstances, but I can also see where brakes could be useful. Since speculation is practically useless (especially by those with no experience, such as myself), do we have any info about combat use of both recently?
Clobbersauras
03-24-11, 13:49
Check out this thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75009
Pertaining to the subject @ hand:
Try not to strain a knat and swallow a camel. Worrying about the best muzzle device falls way behind mindset, traning, etc. Furthermore, if you have the best flashider in the world, walk out of your bedroom, and blast the wall 10ft away from you with 100+ Lumens of white light, you're blind anyway, forget about your muzzle flash. Everything has to balance.
When we discuss muzzle flash giving away ones position, we are discussing battlefield tactics (not CQB/room clearing). A flashlight is a must have for seeing in the dark, but if you are across a field from me, you will NEVER see me turn my light on. If I am searching a building for you (using my light), the flash generated by my muzzle is of no concern.
I personally can't stand to be next to someone with a comp on their gun. I ESPECIALLY can't stand room clearing with someone that is using one.
MB users, listen up. If you are attending a training class, do your fellow students AND the instructor a favor, ditch the MB!
C4
When we discuss muzzle flash giving away ones position, we are discussing battlefield tactics (not CQB/room clearing). A flashlight is a must have for seeing in the dark, but if you are across a field from me, you will NEVER see me turn my light on. If I am searching a building for you (using my light), the flash generated by my muzzle is of no concern.
C4
My comments regarding knats & camels weren't directed @ you, Grant, but rather spoken in general.
I do think that it is valid to specify the conditions under which the muzzle device will be used. I was referencing a HD scenario, but a muzzle device has different requirements inside a building than it does out in the open field. (IE, the muzzle flash is probably not going to be the first thing that gives away your position inside a building.)
My comments regarding knats & camels weren't directed @ you, Grant, but rather spoken in general.
I do think that it is valid to specify the conditions under which the muzzle device will be used. I was referencing a HD scenario, but a muzzle device has different requirements inside a building than it does out in the open field. (IE, the muzzle flash is probably not going to be the first thing that gives away your position inside a building.)
I didn't think they were. :)
C4
Why everyone else is running one of these things is beyond me personally and if I could quote one of my favorite instructors; "If you need a MB to control your AR chambered in .223, you might want to hit the gym."
The greatest tool ever given to a shooter to control muzzle climb is their thumb. ;)
C4
I think that quote falls into the category of being easily clichéd out of context. Not that it isn't true, just easy to take wrong.
Hyperbole for example: If you absolutely MUST have a brake to get more than 1 shot per second of aimed fire down range, then yes, your technique is the problem not your muzzle device. But if you're already a solid shooter and a muzzle brake helps you shoot faster while maintaining your needed accuracy, then it just becomes an exercise in weighing the pros vs. cons for your usage. For some the drawbacks may not be worth a little speed, for others it might.
Everything you do to modify the gun has pros and cons - if we simply relegate everything to the level of "if you need X, you're not a good enough shooter yet" then why aren't we all shooting plain-jane M16A1 style guns? Because even for the best shooter, who can pick up a bare-bones carbine and really kick ass with it, some of the changes make it easier to do so, which makes him even more effective with it.
I know it's frustrating to see people desperately seeking the "+12 Marksmanship" saving roll, but ultimately some things do make shooting a particular gun easier, and if the goal boils down to putting bullets where you want them, as fast as possible, easy is good - as long as you understand the compromises being made, since there's no free lunch.
Belmont31R
03-24-11, 15:06
I've taken off all of my brakes, and anything in the future will just wear an A2 unless I need to mount a can on that gun.
In the context of this thread a MB is going to be a liability.
I think that quote falls into the category of being easily clichéd out of context. Not that it isn't true, just easy to take wrong.
Hyperbole for example: If you absolutely MUST have a brake to get more than 1 shot per second of aimed fire down range, then yes, your technique is the problem not your muzzle device. But if you're already a solid shooter and a muzzle brake helps you shoot faster while maintaining your needed accuracy, then it just becomes an exercise in weighing the pros vs. cons for your usage. For some the drawbacks may not be worth a little speed, for others it might.
Everything you do to modify the gun has pros and cons - if we simply relegate everything to the level of "if you need X, you're not a good enough shooter yet" then why aren't we all shooting plain-jane M16A1 style guns? Because even for the best shooter, who can pick up a bare-bones carbine and really kick ass with it, some of the changes make it easier to do so, which makes him even more effective with it.
I know it's frustrating to see people desperately seeking the "+12 Marksmanship" saving roll, but ultimately some things do make shooting a particular gun easier, and if the goal boils down to putting bullets where you want them, as fast as possible, easy is good - as long as you understand the compromises being made, since there's no free lunch.
There are two groups of people. Ones that have guns for the purpose of competition and ones that have guns for defense (yes I know many own guns for each type of shooting). I have NO PROBLEM with having a MB on a competition gun. If that gun is ALSO your SHTF gun, then I think you have made an error in judgment.
The other thing about MB's that drives me nuts is that people believe that if they buy one that they will magically be able to shoot like Costa (or whomever). No. Costa shoots like Costa BECAUSE of his technique and years of practice and training.
If Costa was shooting an Olympic Arms AR with an A2 FS and I gave some random guy off the errornet Costa's KAC SR-15, Costa is going to SMOKE THAT DUDE LIKE A PACK OF KOOLS. ;)
Point being, technique, training and practice is going to account for WAY more than the gas port position on your barrel, the length of your barrel, the weight of your buffer or the type of MB attached to the end of your barrel.
C4
If it wasn't for NY's AWB id have an A2 instead of the pws556 currently on the gun. I shoot mainly indoors and the concussion in the booth is quite annoying. Id rather deal with the small increase in muzzle flip than that concussion/fireball. You can at least train to lessen flip.
I have NO PROBLEM with having a MB on a competition gun. If that gun is ALSO your SHTF gun, then I think you have made an error in judgment.
What about the battlecomp? I figured all those positive reviews here on M4c has negated the idea that a MB is no good for tactical applications.
Thanks guys. A lot of great info. If I was concerned about the latest and greatest part, I wouldn't be running a fixed carry handle A2/M4 with A1 fixed stock, so it's not about that. ;) I only asked because I am not going to SBR it, so I have to have the muzzle device pinned, so I want to be happy with what I choose. Maybe an simple extended A2 FH is the best way to go after all. I like the flash reducing capabilities of the Vortex, and the early one I have (straight blade) looks appropriate, but breakage would suck, and I'm not fond of the tuning fork effect.
If the SHTF I wouldn't be thinking about it, which is why I'm carefully considering it now. Should you not worry about having enough ammo? enough food and water? Med kit? I want to know this rifle will do what I need it to do and have enough rounds through it to be confident that it won't fail. I'm spending my $ on good internals like a Colt chrome bolt and LPK rather than bling. I don't need extra weight or BS - just a good, simple carbine.
Better to have that faster follow-up shot or flash suppression? I hope not to ever need either, but I plan to shoot the hell out of this thing. I like everything about it, but haven't decided on the muzzle device. I like the AAC Blackout because I actually like USGI improved three-prong, but it's not long enough to make the thing legal, unless I use a spacer as some have done with A1's. Sorry, but the way it looks on the rifle is a consideration to me, as I'm sure it is to many people whether they admit it or not. With so many good choices out there, why not make the one that makes you happiest?
Hmmm. Lots to think about, and some very good points given. A lot of tech heads may laugh at this thing when it's done, but I see no reason it won't be very effective. I'll be running a Surefire on a bayo mount, standard M4 HGs instead of a rail although I have an old RAS and may change over later. The way I've got the sling set up is very fast, and comfortable. I like it. A little 550 cord goes a long way.
What about the battlecomp? I figured all those positive reviews here on M4c has negated the idea that a MB is no good for tactical applications.
The BC does the best job I have seen of ANY MB at reducing flash.
With that said, I dislike flash so much that I shoot suppressed 100% of the time (as nothing kills flash like a can). :)
C4
Eurodriver
03-24-11, 21:53
The BC does the best job I have seen of ANY MB at reducing flash.
With that said, I dislike flash so much that I shoot suppressed 100% of the time (as nothing kills flash like a can). :)
C4
But how does it do at reducing concussion/blast compared to other brakes?
That's my main issue with comps, noise. I dislike flash too. But noise is what really makes me lose my mind. My go-to AR has an A2X and my others have A2s or SE Vortex's. They are "normal" when it comes to decibals. But what about a battle comp? How does that do in the realm of noise and concussion? From what I've heard it appears to be about equal to an A2 in terms of flash and noise.
If that were the case, wouldn't running a BattleComp be the best of both worlds? Less muzzle climb, and equal/comparable flash and noise to an A2? This is assuming you are not going for complete flash elimination.
IF the battlecomp really has the same flash suppression as an A2, AND isn't loud like a normal MB (which is what I'm hearing) then it would be the best of both worlds no? (Sorry - just stirring the pot a little...:D )
Wow Eurodriver - beat me by seconds. great minds think alike no? ;)
Belmont31R
03-24-11, 21:56
But how does it do at reducing concussion/blast compared to other brakes?
That's my main issue with comps, noise. I dislike flash too. But noise is what really makes me lose my mind. My go-to AR has an A2X and my others have A2s or SE Vortex's. They are "normal" when it comes to decibals. But what about a battle comp? How does that do in the realm of noise and concussion? From what I've heard it appears to be about equal to an A2 in terms of flash and noise.
If that were the case, wouldn't running a BattleComp be the best of both worlds? Less muzzle climb, and equal/comparable flash and noise to an A2? This is assuming you are not going for complete flash elimination.
IME they are comparable to an A2 noise/blast wise.
Eurodriver
03-24-11, 22:03
IF the battlecomp really has the same flash suppression as an A2, AND isn't loud like a normal MB (which is what I'm hearing) then it would be the best of both worlds no? (Sorry - just stirring the pot a little...:D )
IME they are comparable to an A2 noise/blast wise.
Obviously noise and flash signature vary with ammo, barrel temp, elevation, humidity, the alignment of the moon with the sun, and whether Costa and the rest of MagPul Dynamics have given their blessings on a bright or dark evening of shooting.
However, if the A2 and BC posess similar noise and flash levels yet the BC is noticably better at muzzle climb it would be a no brainer to me that the BC is the go-to muzzle device.
This is assuming cost, suppressor use, and a host of other factors aren't included.
Wow Eurodriver - beat me by seconds. great minds think alike no? ;)
I know man. I just bought a BC and while I'm not trying to get justification for my purchase, this is just going on a plinking rifle, I am quite curious about why one would only stick with an A2 if the BC was better in reducing muzzle flip and equal in all other categories (price tag aside).
Depending on how the BC performs I may very well replace the A2X with a BC 1.5 on some of my other rifles.
Don't guys shoot their gun at night during training? If so, then they should know how their particular muzzle device performs. Just saying...
As for shooting indoors, it is flippin loud. Get a stack of plywood or phone books, go down to your basement and pop off a round to see.
However, adrenaline can block out sound for some people.
Mr. Goodtimes
03-24-11, 22:12
I suppose I'm making an error in judgement then. I run a Surefire brake on my SHTF gun. I'd say I have very sound fundamentals when it comes to shooting and I still prefer the brake. Shooting TAP there is very little flash to begin with and the noise doesn't bother me anymore than an A2. Shooting indoos at a range I find there to be some concussion but it's no louder.
I bought the brake to reduce recoil a little, but also for mounting a can. I think I can honestly say that I'd run a brake regardless. The Ruskies have been butting a brake of similar design on their AK74 for what? Thirty years?
hey are comparable to an A2 noise/blast wise.
If that's the case, for SHTF weapon, price wouldn't even matter. If that's the only negative on the BC. I'd pay that price to keep my sights on target(s).
What is the error in judgement when picking the Battlecomp since it is a MB?
I personally think the battle comp is not much different to an A2 in perceived noise/concussion, at least from the firers perspective from directly behind the rifle. Certainly, compared to some more full on competition brakes, it seems to be much less. But......I have to say, every time I go to my local more traditional type range for long range practice, someone always comments on how 'loud' my rifle is....even with the battlecomp. My take on it is that when standing off to the sides, the bc does sound louder than an A2....however, concussion is less due to the linear and radial dispersement of gasses around 3/4 of the device rather than traditional brakes which vent most of it directly out through large side ports....and it is this aspect which makes it better for the firer in the overall volume perception.
'SHTF'wise (I so hate that term!), I would not really be more worried about a BC giving away my position than an A2....both will give it away eventually.
So most of you don't like Battle Comps on duty weapons then?
So most of you don't like Battle Comps on duty weapons then?
I think a better conclusion to draw is that each has a different purpose, which is pretty much where the thread started.
I really hate SHTF to try to justify purchases though, just ask for a preference or a pros and cons list. >.O
I've managed to clog a Battle comp with mud, there was no way to clear it with a cleaning rod. I ended up swirling it around in a bottle of water. I'm not sure how one would fix this if it was clogged with snow and well below freezing. Just a thought for "shtf."
For a fun gun the BC is great, for a duty/shtf gun I'll stick with a flash hider.
Eurodriver
03-25-11, 00:12
So most of you don't like Battle Comps on duty weapons then?
Duty weapon is not SHTF weapon.
Theres alot of disdain for MBs in the AR world. Not even 5 years ago the only muzzle attachments other than the A2 were obnoxious, ridiculously loud brakes. That turned alot of people off to them permanently.
Now BC has come around and really shit in everyone's oreos. It sounds like an A2. It suppresses flash sorta like an A2. But its got excellent qualities as a comp. Unless you're going for full flash suppression (which you should be using a suppressor...and the BC 2.0 will work with certain model suppressors....which is great because the BC will reduce the stress on the suppressor) then the BC is not a bad choice.
In fact, I would say its a good choice. However I really want to stand next to an A2 and BC side-by-side and actually hear and feel the muzzle blast/concussion myself before I really make any wild claims.
I've managed to clog a Battle comp with mud, there was no way to clear it with a cleaning rod. I ended up swirling it around in a bottle of water. I'm not sure how one would fix this if it was clogged with snow and well below freezing. Just a thought for "shtf."
Thats easy. Make sure the weapon is unloaded, put muzzle in mouth and keep it there until the snow/ice is melted.
This is SHTF after all. :sarcastic:
lethal dose
03-25-11, 00:48
I hate comps. That said, I just got a SCREAMIN' deal on an Slr15 upper from someone in a ban state... of course, the lug is shaved and the fsc556 is pinned. Got the upper to run as a trainer. Not sure I wanna sink the $$$ into having it removed. Honestly, I couldn't pass up the deal.
maybe im retarded but i dont understand why A2s are so cheep but everyone else wants like 100 bucks for something that pretty much does the same thing, but doesnt look as high speed.
maybe im retarded but i dont understand why A2s are so cheep but everyone else wants like 100 bucks for something that pretty much does the same thing, but doesnt look as high speed.
High availability, steady demand.
BufordTJustice
03-25-11, 02:49
User preference. If you find a comp YOU like, then use that. Same with a FH that YOU like. Nobody can tell you what works best for you.
As far as tactics go in armed confrontations, you're gonna be deaf-as-**** after shooting any type of rifle or carbine without hearing protection. You be especially deaf if you do it indoors.
Deaf = a complete lack of auditory situational awareness. I've done it....it sucks.
Run what you find works best for you. There is no rule of thumb.
4 years ago, if you even suggested that a person run a comp/brake on a 'tactical' carbine, you'd have been ridiculed to no end (ask me how I know ;) ). Now, the BC/KAC TT/PWS FSC556 are de-riguer and are now commonly accepted. Things change. Find what works for you.
Nightvisionary
03-25-11, 04:34
The standard A2 flash suppressor is more than adequate in my mind. Many of the newer flash hiders are in many ways a step backwards. The A2 suppressor was a result 20 years of experience with the M-16 rifle including combat experience during Vietnam, Beirut, and Grenada.
The original bird cage design that we see resurrected today by commercial vendors was discontinued because it often got snagged while patrolling through thick vegetation during the Vietnam war. The A1 style fixed that but the slots on the bottom of the cage forced escaping gas downward increasing the dust signature when fired from the prone. The A2 cage fixed that.
Much of this is just re-inventing the wheel and is really nothing more than a push to institute fashion fads into the firearms community by business for monetary gain.
BufordTJustice
03-25-11, 05:34
The standard A2 flash suppressor is more than adequate in my mind. Many of the newer flash hiders are in many ways a step backwards. The A2 suppressor was a result 20 years of experience with the M-16 rifle including combat experience during Vietnam, Beirut, and Grenada.
You like (and prefer) the A2. That's fine. The A2 is, factually, an inferior flash hiding device as compared to many newer devices like the Vortex, the AAC Blackout, etc. I've shot both in the dark and there is no comparison in terms of pure flash hiding ability; the newer hiders cause the flash for even shitty guatemalan M193 to disappear. The A2, using that same ammo, causes fireballs that are easily visible outside in direct sunlight.
The original bird cage design that we see resurrected today by commercial vendors was discontinued because it often got snagged while patrolling through thick vegetation during the Vietnam war. The A1 style fixed that but the slots on the bottom of the cage forced escaping gas downward increasing the dust signature when fired from the prone. The A2 cage fixed that.
Agreed.
Much of this is just re-inventing the wheel and is really nothing more than a push to institute fashion fads into the firearms community by business for monetary gain.
Disagreed. My PWS FSC556 (to which I am partial) produces about the same amount of flash as an A2, and affords me MUCH more control over the muzzle during rapid fire strings. Seeing as every bullet has a lawyer attached to it...being able to fire more rapidly while maintaining accuracy is valuable to me. The Battlecomp is also a HUGE advancement over previous muzzle devices (some consider it the THE current standard for tactical muzzle devices).
With no disrespect intended, how many of these newer muzzle devices have you fired at least a magazine through?
I (and many others) have fired many rounds through these. I've shot most on the market and would gladly pay for any of them (Vortex, AAC, Phantom, BC, FSC556, etc) over an A2. The A2 is better than a naked muzzle, and it was the pinnacle of development 30 years ago. With no sarcasm, a LOT has changed in 30 years.
But how does it do at reducing concussion/blast compared to other brakes?
That's my main issue with comps, noise. I dislike flash too. But noise is what really makes me lose my mind. My go-to AR has an A2X and my others have A2s or SE Vortex's. They are "normal" when it comes to decibals. But what about a battle comp? How does that do in the realm of noise and concussion? From what I've heard it appears to be about equal to an A2 in terms of flash and noise.
If that were the case, wouldn't running a BattleComp be the best of both worlds? Less muzzle climb, and equal/comparable flash and noise to an A2? This is assuming you are not going for complete flash elimination.
Pretty good. It is one of the quieter MB's on the market.
It is still louder than an A2, Vortex, etc though.
C4
I suppose I'm making an error in judgement then. I run a Surefire brake on my SHTF gun. I'd say I have very sound fundamentals when it comes to shooting and I still prefer the brake. Shooting TAP there is very little flash to begin with and the noise doesn't bother me anymore than an A2. Shooting indoos at a range I find there to be some concussion but it's no louder.
I bought the brake to reduce recoil a little, but also for mounting a can. I think I can honestly say that I'd run a brake regardless. The Ruskies have been butting a brake of similar design on their AK74 for what? Thirty years?
I run the same MB on my SHTF gun. I also run my can 100% of the time.
There will be a significant amount of flash that comes out of it compared to a good FS.
Yes, they are loud. Louder than a FS.
Just because the Russians do something, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. ;)
C4
Johnny Yuma
03-25-11, 10:58
Why everyone else is running one of these things is beyond me personally and if I could quote one of my favorite instructors; "If you need a MB to control your AR chambered in .223, you might want to hit the gym."
C4
That's funny , and I don't care who you are !
:p
66427vette
03-25-11, 11:07
neither . a suppressor.:D
Just because the Russians do something, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. ;)
C4
Absolutely....and as we are talking about perceived volume as we are in this thread.....those AK74 brakes are just about the most teeth crackingly loud things I have ever heard. Had to RO a guy with one recently at the local carbine match.....painful experience, that was! :ph34r:
I've done some test firing of the BC 1.0 with a 20" AR at the local indoor range. There was noticeable side concussion but it was much softer than from an A2. The rifle is also very pleasant to shoot, but that could be due to it being roughly 10 lbs. Have not shot this particular rifle with an A2 or bare muzzle
snackgunner
10-20-11, 23:34
The ONLY reason my rifle doesn't currently wear one is that I'm waiting for the verdict on the AAC 51-tooth thing.
Please explain. Is AAC pairing with BattleComp to make a 51 tooth BC design that will work with their suppressors?
The most current info I have on the subject is that the two parties have been put in contact ;)
Any update on this?
My feelings are if the shit ever does hit the fan in the worst way, such as civil and social breakdown, god help us if it ever comes to that, i'm not going to be looking to get in a firefight or actively engaging unless my family's or my life is in peril. I'm going to be laying low and staying on the outskirts. I'd probably run a fh (but my bc 2.0 on the way might convince me otherwise.)
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