View Full Version : Proper sight picture for night sights
I am used to a 6 o'clock sight picture on my handgun sights. I recently had a set of ameriglo night sights installed, and when using a 6 o'clock sight picture (target on top of the front sight) it shoots about 4.5" low at 10 yards. Someone told me today that all night sights are engineered so that the front dot is supposed to COVER the target? :confused: If that's true, in your experience, how much does that impact your precision shooting (e.g. 20 yards or so)?
Does anyone else shoot competitions with their night-sight-equipped pistol?
I want my sights to shoot poi poa so the tip of the front sight is where the bullet goes. sights come in different heights for a reason I would want all my sights to match what I stated above. I would not want to have to cover the intended point of impact with my sight picture to get an accurate hit- unless you are in military of police applications however the contact distance is likely to be VERY close where the sights being off by 4.5" at 10 yards wouldn't matter much. I have also seen guns where if you index the night dot in the middle of the rear notch the do tend to hit either low (or more often high) because now the top of the front post is very much above the top of the rear notch.
When I contacted them about it, Ameriglo was nice enough to say that they'd produce a higher new rear sight for me, so hopefully it should shoot more the way I would expect it to when I get it back.
Now if only the gunsmith hadn't installed the current rear sight so tight that they are going to have to drill out the set screw...
Does anyone else shoot competitions with their night-sight-equipped pistol?[/QUOTE]
I have shot GSSF and IDPA matches with my Mepro and Warren Tactical night sight equipped Glock G-22's and my wife uses Truglo TFO's on her G-22 and G-38.
To the best of my knowledge, only some European guns are designed to hit POI behind the front sight dot. I found this out on my HK P30. Most US made sights have the POI on top of the front sight post or "pumpkin on a post" regardless if they are night sights or not. This picture from Heinie explains the typical sight picture on US sights.
http://www.imgjoe.com/x/s8big2jhj.jpg]
I've been taught to put the front dot where you want the bullet to go. This works for me and my Glock 19 with Mepros out to 50meters (farthest I've shot with a handgun). Of course, do what works best for you. :)
I've been taught to put the front dot where you want the bullet to go. This works for me and my Glock 19 with Mepros out to 50meters (farthest I've shot with a handgun). Of course, do what works best for you. :)
Same here. Both my Glock's and Sig are set up this way.
I think this all depends on the sights in question. I'm not aware of any industry standards that says what type of sight picture ALL night sights are supposed to have.
I've used sights that were dot-on-target and 6 o'clock hold.
I think this all depends on the sights in question. I'm not aware of any industry standards that says what type of sight picture ALL night sights are supposed to have.
I've used sights that were dot-on-target and 6 o'clock hold.
Absolutely. I think its kind up in the air. For instance Heinie and Warren sights don't have a dot on target POI even on pistols which originally came that way.
O'DubhGhaill
04-22-12, 15:39
Necropost revival I know, but this thread is completely relevant to an issue I am having with my Warren Tactical 3-dot night sight set-up on my Glocks. If I align the top of the front sight post with the upper edge of the rear sight, the front sight dot is a bit higher than the two rear dots. As such, my G26s are shooting high at 20yds. I then found this picture on the CPWSA site:
http://www.cpwsa.com/images/Warren%20Tactical%20Night%20Set.gif
If I use this sight picture, the tip of the front sight post sits lower in alignment with the top edge of the rear sight, but the dots are in horizontal alignment. This should lower the POI and solve my problem, although I would have to change my sight picture memory accordingly. I am also going to have to experiment with putting the dot where I want the shot with this alignment, that is, dot equals POI, rather than tip of front sight to center mast. Strange these night sights are.
You should be using the square edges of your sights if you can see them anyway. Maybe the sight set really isn't the right match for a G26? Especially if it's shooting really high at 20 when the edges are lined up.
I just checked my Ameriglo Operator sets that I have on a 26/17/34. They are all the same. The front triitium is just a tad higher than the rears when the square edges are lined up. It doesn't bother me, I just use the square edges and when I can't see them just the white dot.
I've been taught to put the front dot where you want the bullet to go. This works for me and my Glock 19 with Mepros out to 50meters (farthest I've shot with a handgun). Of course, do what works best for you. :)
This is dead wrong.
Proper sight picture is based on the tops of the sights, not the dots. The common front sight heights provide either poi=poa at 25 yards or 6 o'clock hold at 25 yards. Since stock guns have some variation, most manufacturers provide more options for sight height. Find the front sight height that gives you poi=poa (6 o'clock hold is a competition thing) at 25 yards using the top of the sights, not the dot.
If you can not get the correct front sight height, use the tops of the sights for all close quarter engagements and use the poa that gives you the poi you want for longer distance shots where you have a bit more time and that level of precision matters.
Using the dots to line up your sights is a training scar and will not translate well to other guns.
Dead wrong is quite a stretch...
There are many competition and combat shooters that advocate a "drive the dot" sight picture. Where they actually put the middle of the front sight over the target area.
Dead wrong is quite a stretch...
There are many competition and combat shooters that advocate a "drive the dot" sight picture. Where they actually put the middle of the front sight over the target area.
I'm not a conpetition shooter so I'll leave that to others.
Give me names. What reputable "combat" instructors teach using the dot? I've never met one.
I'm not trying to start a fight but I would appreciate it if you dropped some names.
Does he teach drive the dot out to a certain range and then square edges after?
I've tried his FAST drill. I'm not certain that he's using the dot on the head shots.
At 25yds (180gr) the bullets hit at top of the sight. If you line up the sights correctly and cover the bottom half of the bull, its dead on. At around 7 to 10 yds, if you put the dot perfectly over the bull, the bullets go there. Slight bullet rise but enough to make a difference. Just pick a hold at the distance you're shooting at and find where your rounds are going at various ranges. Then you can adjust for different situations.
I have Meprolites on a cz75compact .40sw.
For the posters above, it depends on your sights. Niether is not correct. Top of sight is common for US guns while cover target w/sight is common for european guns as I understand it. That would explain why mine is set up to cover the target at common pistol ranges.
EDITED as I wrote the wrong thing and it was not clear.
My sights hit top of slide at 25yds. At 10 yds, I cover the target and get bulls.
Meprolites on a cz75compact.
For the posters above, it depends on your sights. Niether is not correct. Top of sight is common for US while cover target w/sight is common for europe as I understand it.
I don't even understand what half of that means or where that info comes from.
I want to keep an open mind since I don't know much about competition shooters. But so far all the responses seem to be from hobby shooters who can't provide either clear and consise reasoning or examples of actual instructors (particularily le/mil side) that advocate using night sight dots to line up shots. Seems silly to me and every professional instructor I've come across has taught the proper sight alignment (tops of sight).
It would be nice if some folks with either real world experience or extensive shooting background could weigh in.
Failure2Stop
04-24-12, 01:14
It would be nice if some folks with either real world experience or extensive shooting background could weigh in.
It depends on your gun, your sights, your ammo, and your preception of the sights.
Some combinations will give a 6:00 hold with the front sight edge, some will hit on the tip of the front sight, some will hit behind the dot, and some will hit in weird places outside those norms or somewhere in between it, and all of that can change as distance increases.
The only way to know for sure where your combination hits is to shoot it.
For example: My Warren Tactical 2-Dot sights were a 6:00 hold on my G19 with just about everything I put through it at 25 yards. I didn't like that, so I bought a replacement front sight that Warren sells for a "drive the dot" impact, which I prefer for night sights (hard to always see the tip of the front sight, but I can always see the dot, especially once the front sight is painted orange).
My G17 with AmeriGlo CAP front sight shoots to tip of front sight with my practice ammo, however, when up close and fast, driving the dot works very well even on small targets.
Bluedreaux
04-24-12, 09:06
I'd say it depends on what ranges you're shooting at.
I just finished two days of pistol training. Both instructors described proper sight alignment as shown in the pic posted above. But at 3 yards I don't even need a rear sight to make hits. At 7 yards I know they're there. I don't start really paying attention to sight alignment until I'm at 15 yards. Because I don't NEED to until then.
At 3 and 7 yards I'm just seeing the dot, regardless of day or night.
F-Trooper05
04-24-12, 12:39
I'd say it depends on what ranges you're shooting at.
I just finished two days of pistol training. Both instructors described proper sight alignment as shown in the pic posted above. But at 3 yards I don't even need a rear sight to make hits. At 7 yards I know they're there. I don't start really paying attention to sight alignment until I'm at 15 yards. Because I don't NEED to until then.
At 3 and 7 yards I'm just seeing the dot, regardless of day or night.
What's your score on the FAST drill using this technique?
Failure2Stop
04-24-12, 16:18
How do you know if you are off in elevation? Do you have dots on your rear sight?
The front sight is still contained within the notch of the rear sight.
I shoot between 5.3 and 5.9 FAST unless I have some major drama.
RogerinTPA
04-25-12, 13:12
I had Warrens on two of my M&Ps for a few years, and had to shoot the dot. I tried to get used to it, since it was counter to what I had been doing all my life, but I just couldn't get used to it. I finally gave up last year, and got a couple of similar two dot sights from another manufacturer, where I could go back to the more conventional sight picture.
I had Warrens on two of my M&Ps for a few years, and had to shoot the dot. I tried to get used to it, since it was counter to what I had been doing all my life, but I just couldn't get used to it. I finally gave up last year, and got a couple of similar two dot sights from another manufacturer, where I could go back to the more conventional sight picture.
Do the new ones have tritium dots? If so, how do you use them?
Bluedreaux
04-25-12, 16:19
What's your score on the FAST drill using this technique?
Hadn't heard of it until you asked, good drill. I shot it at lunch today.
Apparently, I'm a high 5s shooter. 5.8 was my fastest, 5.9s a lot.
Level 3 Safariland / Stock M&P .40
RogerinTPA
04-26-12, 01:44
Do the new ones have tritium dots? If so, how do you use them?
Yes.
With a conventional sight picture. Oddly, Heine Straight eights on my M&P9c works perfectly in this regard, but on the full size M&P, I had to shoot the dot with 115grn ammo.
Ghostmaker
04-26-12, 06:21
It depends on your gun, your sights, your ammo, and your preception of the sights.
Some combinations will give a 6:00 hold with the front sight edge, some will hit on the tip of the front sight, some will hit behind the dot, and some will hit in weird places outside those norms or somewhere in between it, and all of that can change as distance increases.
The only way to know for sure where your combination hits is to shoot it.
For example: My Warren Tactical 2-Dot sights were a 6:00 hold on my G19 with just about everything I put through it at 25 yards. I didn't like that, so I bought a replacement front sight that Warren sells for a "drive the dot" impact, which I prefer for night sights (hard to always see the tip of the front sight, but I can always see the dot, especially once the front sight is painted orange).
My G17 with AmeriGlo CAP front sight shoots to tip of front sight with my practice ammo, however, when up close and fast, driving the dot works very well even on small targets.
I agree with F2S on this....On a Glock 22 I had with Mepros, it was hitting top of front sight... It was different for a springfied I had...It hit six O'clock....On two of my 1911s they both had different Night sights.....And the hold on them was different from each other also.
With most "normal" engagement ranges, which is usually very close the "driving the dot" technique is very practical. For close range- 0-5 yards or so, it can be a step above "index" shooting. where you get a general index of your gun without actual sight alignment before pressing shots off... Both are effective at these ranges. As mentioned though, dot driving can give you a fast, fairly precise shot within these "up close ranges".
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