View Full Version : Magazine Slam?
platoonDaddy
03-24-11, 16:42
Watching a video and the shooter talked about "why you shouldn't rely on a magazine slam to send the slide foward."
My question what is a "magazine slam" and why it would|how send the slide forward?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xXVT0IgpNw&feature=uploademail
Watching a video and the shooter talked about "why you shouldn't rely on a magazine slam to send the slide foward."
My question what is a "magazine slam" and why it would|how send the slide forward?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xXVT0IgpNw&feature=uploademail
If you insert a magazine hard enough (SLAM!) it will often times release the slide.
some pistols will drop slide if you ram the mag in hard.. he's saying you should never trust that.
If you read that guys video description it explains more. There are arguments for or against this technique. Doing a mag slam is a fairly reliable or repeatable technique and can be done on more than just the Glock. They key word IMO is "fairly". However for myself the reliability or repeatability diminishes under speed or stress situations. I can sit at a desk and perform this technique all day long. I can even do it very reliable under normal training situations on the range. However turn up the heat, put on some stress and I actually bobble this technique more than I find to be acceptable. The failures that may arise which I have personally experienced using this technique particularly with a Glock or a Sig Sauer are;
1) A round may not actually chamber. On certain weapons this can be due to a jarring the weapon without a clean insertion.
2) Failure to correctly feed due to the round popping or nosing upward.
3) Missing the reload all together because I am more focused on the hard insertion. Of course this can be looked at as a training issue and not a mechanical one.
I would say for myself it does not save any time vs a slide release and the failures that I have encountered do not justify the technique. Like anything else everyone's mileage may vary so to speak. What works for one, may not work for another.
Besides who the hell is that guy and what does he know anyway?
it saves time, for sure... but as you say, it's a question mark. i've done head-to-head drills with guys who do it intentionally... its faster when it works, but when it doesn't work, you get absolutely smoked.
jklaughrey
03-24-11, 19:02
it saves time, for sure... but as you say, it's a question mark. i've done head-to-head drills with guys who do it intentionally... its faster when it works, but when it doesn't work, you get absolutely smoked.
Tortoise versus The Hare, slow and consistent trumps speed and unreliable any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Seems to be the method on Glocks as the slide release lever on my G30 sucks when I compare it to my P220...
Seems to be the method on Glocks as the slide release lever on my G30 sucks when I compare it to my P220...
That's because Glock (according to the training I've received over the years as an armorer) never intended its primary function to act as a release. They designed it as a detent (Glock calls it a slide stop) with the intention of the shooter using the cocking serrations with the support hand to return the pistol to battery. It can be and is taught to be used as a release by instructors like Larry Vickers and Jason Falla. Installing an "extended" slide stop will greatly assist in this.
it saves time, for sure... but as you say, it's a question mark. i've done head-to-head drills with guys who do it intentionally... its faster when it works, but when it doesn't work, you get absolutely smoked.
I watched a local shooter who relied on it at a national championship one time. He slammed the mag so hard that the baseplate flew off and dumped everything at his feet. He was left with an empty mag body he had to strip out of the gun to get back in the game. The look on his face when it happened was priceless! :D
NCPatrolAR
03-25-11, 06:52
To get most polymer frame guns to auto froward; the trick is not just a hard "slam" of the magazine into the magazine well. Instead, its a magazine insertion with the palm striking the bottom of the magazinewell at an angle which causes the gun to auto forward.
platoonDaddy
03-25-11, 07:36
Thanks for the info, will try this afternoon at the range, never seen anyone use that technique.
again thanks,
I have actually never been able to get the slide not to auto forward during a reload on my full-size M&P 45. The only time it doesn't happen is when I'm reloading with snap caps, and even then, it's only sometimes. I do want to use the slide release during my reloads, and want to train consistently that way, but every time I jam the mag in, the gun will auto forward before my thumb can get anywhere near it. Thankfully, it has never failed to chamber a round. But the fact that it could happen concerns me. The only way I can think of to not get the slide to auto forward is to try not to insert the mag so hard. I'm not too sure I wanna do that though, as part of what causes the degree of force at which I consistently slam the bottom of the mag with, is caused by the speed at which I insert it into the mag well. So that means I would have to slow down my reload.
Watching a video and the shooter talked about "why you shouldn't rely on a magazine slam to send the slide foward."
My question what is a "magazine slam" and why it would|how send the slide forward?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xXVT0IgpNw&feature=uploademail
It is called "auto forwarding." Many polymer pistols do it (some easier than others).
Some believe it is a form of loading a weapon. It is not. You can also do damage to the gun or mag by slamming it home and or cause a malfunction.
C4
There is a definite technique to it. I don't think the guy in the video wanted to describe how its done. Not hard to find out, but not something that really needs to be continued or passed on.
For myself in a pistol that I can release the slide with my primary shooting hands thumb, like the Glock or the Sig, I really do not find myself noticeably faster on the reload. The slide is forward and back into battery before the muzzle is back on target anyway.
Now if I could do the technique on say a 1911 or similar set up where I use the support thumb to release the slide, I would definitely be faster. But again I wouldn't trade the potential downside for the amount of failures that I have experienced using it under stress type training. Not too mention if real bullets were flying at me.
platoonDaddy
03-25-11, 13:26
Just returned from the range: big as shit every time I "slam" the magazine my G17 slide goes into battery. Worked with Glock & KCI magazines. Neat but I will stick with my tap-rack-shoot.
Learn something new everyday.
To get most polymer frame guns to auto froward; the trick is not just a hard "slam" of the magazine into the magazine well. Instead, its a magazine insertion with the palm striking the bottom of the magazinewell at an angle which causes the gun to auto forward.
It's the angle that does it most of the time. If your gun does it great, train like it doesn't. Never relie on it, think "murphy's law". You don't want to be fumbling around if your life's on the line. I use the slide release ymmv.
V/r
Uglyguns
Sometimes it just "happens" but I dont think you should count on it. With my Glock I noticed that it happened more often the older the gun got.
This used to happen to me all of the time on the range when we carried Glock 23's it does not happen so often now with our G22's. I was not doing it on purpose, I have a huge paw. More than once the slide went home on an empty chamber, not good. I've learned not to hit the rear of the mag well as hard during reloads.
Yeah...the risk you run is that you never know for sure if the slide actually stripped a round when it went forward. And I have also noticed that with my G22 that sometimes, if you happen to be touching the slide lock with your extended thumbs, you may prevent the slide from locking back when empty.
I was practicing speed reload with my HK USP 45c and it happened to me ,Not trying to! had the mag in the palm of my hand and inserted it hard as i was moving to the right to engage another target ,I was thumbing My slide release and was like WTF:confused:
This thread has opened a new light for me ,I just thought it was a goof up on my part.learn something new everyday here
So the technique is called auto forwarding? During this past IDPA match, I unintentionally slammed the reload mag in hard and noticed the slide and round going into battery. So for the next few reloads, I intentionally slammed the mag in to replicate the technique. It worked.
But since this is my home defense gun and I have no desire to damage it, I shall not be using this technique again.
Thanks to the OP for bring up the subject!
What techniques can you use to avoid "auto-forwarding"?
I was at a range yesterday, and it happened with half loaded 10 round mag in a Glock 19, although I knew about "auto forwarding".
Could auto forwarding damage a weapon?
I wouldn't worry about it, I just wouldn't train it as a "technique".
So the technique is called auto forwarding?
No, the event or action is called auto-forwarding. Thinking of it as a technique is probably a bad idea.
Having said that, taking advantage of the circumstance in which it happens is fine, but one shouldn't count on it happening.
As noted before, it's most likely to occur when one inserts a magazine in such a way as to make one's hand push/bump the basepad in from an angle instead of straight into the magwell. Think of your mag already in the well and seated, and you take the heel of your hand and thump the base, with your hand starting behind the butt of the gun and traveling forward toward the muzzle somewhat. THAT'S the motion that can induce the auto-forwarding condition. It hapens completely unconsciously for many, including myself.
If one concentrates and drives their reload hand straight to the magwell, it's less likely to occur. That said, there's some guns that, past a certain round count (specific to the individual gun), it's just gonna happen with a certain level of force applied to a reload.
My M&P45 mid auto-forwards practically all the time (even when I manage to reload straight into the well), but I still intentionally work the release because Momma Santoro's little boy ain't building no bad habits. It's saved me time on a couple of occasions when it decided to Act Right and NOT auto-forward....
Take your EMPTY gun and lock the slide to the rear. Tap the rear of the may well/back strap area on a table. The slide will slam home. To avoid it during reloads don't hit that area. It has worked pretty well for me. Once you know why/how you can work around it. Practice, practice, practice.
What techniques can you use to avoid "auto-forwarding"?
I was at a range yesterday, and it happened with half loaded 10 round mag in a Glock 19, although I knew about "auto forwarding".
Use a proper mag change technique. If your hand is slamming into the rear part of the frame, then you are doing it wrong.
C4
Jason Falla
05-21-11, 15:01
I have never heard of a training scare like this being given a title?
Auto Forwarding??
This has never been taught as a method of reliably sending the slide back into battery and neither should it be! This is a training scare that has developed over the years due to poor instruction technique during initial training. Unfortunately some model handguns are more prone to this unfortunate event than others. Eg. Beretta M9.
I have seen so many students use this 'technique' as the preferred option during a reload and when the slide fails to release they look at the gun as if it has cauliflower growing out of it!
The other reason that I don't like it is because I have seen all too frequently the slide going into battery prior to the magazine being fully seated and hey presto, you have yourself and failure to fire!
So please people, lets stop giving training scares names and encouraging poor weapons handling.
The only recommended methods of releasing the slide from the locked position is either:
(1) Using the Slide Release/stop.
(2) Sling-shoting the slide.
Relying on 'auto forwarding' will never beat using the slide release for speed or accuracy of the drill. But it will get you killed faster!
I'll leave it up to you!!
Besides who the hell is that guy and what does he know anyway?
I get it. LOL. Your videos are good stuff.
Thanks, glad you like them. My humor often goes unnoticed. ;)
doogiehowser
05-22-11, 13:26
My duty M&P .40 does it EVERY time I drop in a mag. I can think of only one time where it failed to do so. It's not the force it's the angle, do a normal force and during seating it drops perfectly every time. Our armorers are totally ok with it and not worried about any phantom 'damage'.
Failure2Stop
05-22-11, 18:20
A couple things:
The "proper" way to employ this technique is to have the thumb of the gripping hand on the slide release so that the thumb provides downward pressure on the slide release as the magazine is seated.
However, as our resident Aussie points out:
Relying on 'auto forwarding' will never beat using the slide release for speed or accuracy of the drill. But it will get you killed faster!
I'll leave it up to you!!
The technique adds speed to a point in the reload that doesn't really need to be sped up. Following getting the magazine seated, you still need to represent the gun, during which you will reestablish proper grip, arm position, sight alignment/picture, and trigger take-up.
Shaving 1/10th of a second off of having the slide to the rear that would be soaked up during other actions anyway at the expense of higher stoppage probability is simply laughable.
But what the hell do I know?
ryanschmidt65
06-08-11, 00:06
When it works its great. But its NOT something you can count on. It may work 9/10 times for you, but if your gun only fired 9/10 rounds we would have a HUGE problem.
I have never heard of a training scare like this being given a title?
Auto Forwarding??
This has never been taught as a method of reliably sending the slide back into battery and neither should it be! This is a training scare that has developed over the years due to poor instruction technique during initial training. Unfortunately some model handguns are more prone to this unfortunate event than others. Eg. Beretta M9.
I have seen so many students use this 'technique' as the preferred option during a reload and when the slide fails to release they look at the gun as if it has cauliflower growing out of it!
The other reason that I don't like it is because I have seen all too frequently the slide going into battery prior to the magazine being fully seated and hey presto, you have yourself and failure to fire!
So please people, lets stop giving training scares names and encouraging poor weapons handling.
The only recommended methods of releasing the slide from the locked position is either:
(1) Using the Slide Release/stop.
(2) Sling-shoting the slide.
Relying on 'auto forwarding' will never beat using the slide release for speed or accuracy of the drill. But it will get you killed faster!
I'll leave it up to you!!
Could not agree more Jason,
We have explained to students till blue in the face, and when it does happen and the round does not pick i just shake my head point and giggle..(not really) some makers are who actually take input are looking at a way to not allow this to happen
Reagans Rascals
06-08-11, 08:12
Beretta 92 Series, HK's, and M&P's will do it if you hit firmly with the heel of your palm in an outward stroking (45 degree)motion, I use this technique called a slam charge, every time I speed reload and I have 0 malfunctions, you just really have to practice hitting it the correct way so it becomes habit, the only issue I've ever ran into is just not hitting it the correct way which results in nothing happening but locking in the new mag... and honestly when this happens there is no extra step required to power stroke the weapon if you have already been training to do that, you load the mag then power stroke to chamber (not use the slide release), so if you happen to chamber the round without the need to power stroke then cool beans continue on with the gun fight, if if doesn't chamber then follow the standard mag change procedure you would have done normally.... its just something that is efficient when it happens, if it doesn't that's fine just do what you'd normally do like you were planing to anyways...
Its Not a TTP its a failure in waiting.......
Reagans Rascals
06-08-11, 08:30
Honestly, what failure can come from this, other than the need to power stroke the weapon because of a failure to charge the next round due to premature mag seat.... that's it... it's not going to cause the round to not fire if it is indeed chambered.... I don't see what the fuss is, No you shouldn't rely on this 100% of the time, you should rely on the power stroke, but if in some circumstance it does work, then cool roll with it....
Honestly, what failure can come from this, other than the need to power stroke the weapon because of a failure to charge the next round due to premature mag seat.... that's it... it's not going to cause the round to not fire if it is indeed chambered.... I don't see what the fuss is, No you shouldn't rely on this 100% of the time, you should rely on the power stroke, but if in some circumstance it does work, then cool roll with it....
It is not an issue on a one way range but if someone is trying to kill you and all you have is a click when you press the trigger it will Suck!
Reagans Rascals
06-08-11, 09:21
It is not an issue on a one way range but if someone is trying to kill you and all you have is a click when you press the trigger it will Suck!
hmmm not sure how that will happen... if you know your firearm you will know if the slide rode home before the mag was completely seated... in which case you would continue with a power stroke as normal... if someone can't feel how their weapon is operating at least to the lower level of knowing if the slide racked before they felt the mag click... then they shouldn't be operating in a 2-way range to begin with... that's the same as not knowing what it feels like when the bolt on an AR locks back on the last round and when it is actually a malfunction that requires further consideration than just slapping in a new mag...when I perform this on my Beretta there is a definitive moment when the mag is seated before the slide rides home...milliseconds at most but definitely noticeable
It happens and that is the issue. It has happened to me. It's an eye opening experience. It made me change the way I did things.
Reagans Rascals
06-08-11, 09:42
I along with others have stated that its not to be relied on, but if it happens somewhere along the way then its a plus... its not something to be feared and hated and made to go away with new weapon modifications
It's not something I needed to physically change on my guns. I just needed to change my technique and now it does not happen. It is something I've trained to eliminate.
Depending upon the slide to forward on its own upon reload is essentially implementing hope, instead of a plan based upon the designed function of the gun.
Hope is not a plan or a course of action.
Hoping that the slide rocks forward (and doesn't do so prematurely and thereby making a "power-stroke" a non-solution to a problem that waould have been less likely to occur with the application of the correct control feature...) because one applies Dim Mak to the butt of the gun...at that point --to borrow from another thread -- you're not driving, any more, you're a passenger. Being a passenger on your gun is beta-male thinking.
Hope in one hand, crap in the other. Which fills up first?
It's a circumstance, not a feature...not even a perk. It's not in any way consistent enough an occurrence even in the pistols known for it to come close to being relied upon. Thinking also in terms of simple bad practices, at what point is depending upon the hope that the slide drops with the application of a pimp-hand reload gonna jack one up if/when one cross-decks to another pistol in which the slide-drop circumstance being called "uncommon" would be wildly generous? If cross-decking pistols, you stand a very good chance of having Jedi mind-tricked yourself into, at best, mild embarrassment that your slide didn't drop as you hoped would to, at worst, getting waxed in that fraction of a moment you spend mentally or physically gaping at the pistol because the slide is still open for no better reason than one wants to practice what they like instead of what they should.
"Well, I'm not issued dissimilar weapons, and I'll never buy anything but pistols that are known for inadvertant slide forwarding, or I'll find a way to make any pistol I pick up, EVAR!, forward upon reload." Yeah, it sounds as silly, said out loud, as it reads.
It's a garbage thought process to practice to that standard, on the same level of those that think that a carbine-mag follower hump being to one side or the other is in any way a detriment to how they work a carbine. Maybe not catastrophically flawed (could be, though; I'm not Kreskin), but certainly flawed and therefore mucho-not-good.
Kind of like those that walk around with 5# of metal studs punched into various parts of their head: put aside aesthetics and try to wrap one's mind around the twisted brainway that led up to the "This is a good idea under any and all possible scenarios!" grand finale. One sighs, and heavily.
Depending upon the slide to forward on its own upon reload is essentially implementing hope, instead of a plan based upon the designed function of the gun.
Hope is not a plan or a course of action.
Hoping that the slide rocks forward (and doesn't do so prematurely and thereby making a "power-stroke" a non-solution to a problem that waould have been less likely to occur with the application of the correct control feature...) because one applies Dim Mak to the butt of the gun...at that point --to borrow from another thread -- you're not driving, any more, you're a passenger. Being a passenger on your gun is beta-male thinking.
Hope in one hand, crap in the other. Which fills up first?
It's a circumstance, not a feature...not even a perk. It's not in any way consistent enough an occurrence even in the pistols known for it to come close to being relied upon. Thinking also in terms of simple bad practices, at what point is depending upon the hope that the slide drops with the application of a pimp-hand reload gonna jack one up if/when one cross-decks to another pistol in which the slide-drop circumstance being called "uncommon" would be wildly generous? If cross-decking pistols, you stand a very good chance of having Jedi mind-tricked yourself into, at best, mild embarrassment that your slide didn't drop as you hoped would to, at worst, getting waxed in that fraction of a moment you spend mentally or physically gaping at the pistol because the slide is still open for no better reason than one wants to practice what they like instead of what they should.
"Well, I'm not issued dissimilar weapons, and I'll never buy anything but pistols that are known for inadvertant slide forwarding, or I'll find a way to make any pistol I pick up, EVAR!, forward upon reload." Yeah, it sounds as silly, said out loud, as it reads.
It's a garbage thought process to practice to that standard, on the same level of those that think that a carbine-mag follower hump being to one side or the other is in any way a detriment to how they work a carbine. Maybe not catastrophically flawed (could be, though; I'm not Kreskin), but certainly flawed and therefore mucho-not-good.
Kind of like those that walk around with 5# of metal studs punched into various parts of their head: put aside aesthetics and try to wrap one's mind around the twisted brainway that led up to the "This is a good idea under any and all possible scenarios!" grand finale. One sighs, and heavily.
Well said, sir. A solution in search of a problem. I think every training course has things you take away and things you leave on the table. I took a handgun course from a well known company where this "auto forwarding" technique was presented as an option. It's one that I left on the table. Especially after I saw the instructors on several occasions have to "Dim Mak" the magazine more than once to send the slide forward. I viewed this as one of those times where I took a course to learn what not to do.
I just picked up a couple of G17 mags for my G19 (only becuse they were super cheap). I shot them last night back to back with my normal G19 mags, and noticed that the 17 mags would send the slide forward ALMOST every time I inserted them. I tried to duplicate the circumstance with the 19 mags, but could not.
I assume that because of the length of the 17 mag outside of the 19's frame, I was able to put more torque on the mag, and tweak things enought for the slide to release.
I know the interchangablilty of mags is a big selling point for Glock, but this occurance seems like a minor but significant downside to that. The 17 mags will be relegated to training only, so no big deal.
I've owned 5 XD's, and I'm on my 4th M&P, Compact, Full Size, and Pro Series. They ALL do it. They've NEVER failed to chamber a round when they DO do it. On the rare occasion that the slide does NOT drop when the mag is slammed home, my right thumb is on the slide-stop anyway.
You are correct... It does not make a reload faster than simply thumbing the slide-stop. It is MUCH faster than sling-shotting the slide, and then requiring a shooting grip with the weak hand.
It should NOT be relied upon by someone who does NOT have an extremely sensitive feel for their gun. But I shoot 700-1000 rounds per month, from the same weapon. I practice 500-700 reloads and dry-fires per month. Sometimes per WEEK. I can feel every nuance of recoil, reload, trigger pressure, etc with this gun... I EXPECT the slide to release with the reload, but if it doesn't happen, my thumb is right on top of the slide-stop anyway. Second nature kicks in, and I drop the slide.
If you are an instructor, and you are teaching dozens of students in a class, who may not fire that gun more than 300-500 rounds per YEAR... then you teach a technique that works EVERY time, in EVERY situation, like sling-shot. But you cannot tell a guy who shoots 10,000 rounds+ per year that sling-shotting the gun will make him faster, or safer...or that he's WRONG to use a speed advantage.
ALSO.... I've NEVER seen a slide go forward without chambering a round. If yours does, you need to get your gun fixed... It's NOT a technique error.
JeffWard
NCPatrolAR
09-21-11, 07:54
ALSO.... I've NEVER seen a slide go forward without chambering a round.
I've seen it occur multiple times on a variety of pistols.
The magazine slam is not a technique, its' mechanical reaction as a result of slamming the mag. Just like the sling shot is not a good technique either.
If the mag slam happens on your pistols, then so be it. It should be explained but not necessarily taught.
This happens on my M&P 9 with almost every reload.
I've seen it occur multiple times on a variety of pistols.
Yes, MANY times. No, it is not the gun, it is the poor technique of slamming the mag into the gun.
C4
Auto-forward-induced chokes:
3x on my M&P45. It was specific to ammo, and hasn't happened since, but it's important to recall from time to time that factors not automatically specific to a gun can affect how it operates.
At least 4x on Beretta M9/92F, varying ages/conditions and ammo, and nobody was trying to make it occur.
2x on Glock, the first a 17, the other a 22.
There's been a great deal of "It's never happened to me = never happens" in this one. That's a gigantic logical fallacy, made worse by the fact that the "it" that's never happened to you is the one that likes to rear up in reality every now and again and take a big chunk out of somebody's ass.
One should know that potential snags exist and find a way to be prepared for them, if one decides to depend upon circumstance.
Nobody has to be in lock-step with everybody else, but making it a practice smacks of being a passenger on the gun, instead of being the driver.
EDIT: lol, look all woke up at the same time...
My P-30 does release the slide when a loaded [at least 10 rounds] is inserted somewhat forcefully. It is the only pistol I have that does this and it does it reliably ever time. I happen to like this "feature". My government model, Beretta M9 and CZ have never done it.
Failure2Stop
09-21-11, 09:41
I can get most pistols to do it, and as I said before in the thread, I have seen this technique cause guns to choke and students to fumble. To get it to work, the shooter needs to slam the mag in with more force than necessary to seat the mag, and the hardest reload is not the fastest reload.
People are free to reload their guns however they like, but I would rather help people be better if they want to be better.
4x4twenty6
09-21-11, 10:31
I carried a Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm on duty and during academy training a few years ago my class was the first ones to get the new weapon in our Department.
A few of us discovered that if you slammed the mag hard enough it would release the slide. The difference I wanted to bring up is that all of us had a round chamber when we did this. It did not induce a malfunction when it happened to me.
Also, the beretta magazines are really ****ing shitty and occasionally during a reload the base plate would slide off during a reload and your gun would shit 17 rds or so. It happened to a few people during qualifications. Not cool at all.
I have also found my base plate barely hanging to the magazine inserted into my weapon. Not cool at all.
It seemed that the floor plate that is attached to the spring is the culprit because they swapped them out after the complaints started rolling in. I hadn't had it happen since then but compared to glocks and springfield xd's that I have owned, the px4 mags were of poor quality.
I carried a Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm on duty and during academy training a few years ago my class was the first ones to get the new weapon in our Department.
A few of us discovered that if you slammed the mag hard enough it would release the slide. The difference I wanted to bring up is that all of us had a round chamber when we did this. It did not induce a malfunction when it happened to me.
Also, the beretta magazines are really ****ing shitty and occasionally during a reload the base plate would slide off during a reload and your gun would shit 17 rds or so. It happened to a few people during qualifications. Not cool at all.
I have also found my base plate barely hanging to the magazine inserted into my weapon. Not cool at all.
It seemed that the floor plate that is attached to the spring is the culprit because they swapped them out after the complaints started rolling in. I hadn't had it happen since then but compared to glocks and springfield xd's that I have owned, the px4 mags were of poor quality.
Not to sidetrack this thread, but the B. Storm failed in this summers Belgium gun trials (melted).
C4
4x4twenty6
09-21-11, 11:20
I don't doubt it one bit. After 2 years I had to get a new one because the finish on the slide started flaking off. I didnt like the gun but that is what the all Knowing white shirts in our department decided to go with.
I didn't particularly like the gun either. A majority of detectives carried other guns because the had the option to. If they were in uniform they had to carry the beretta.
I particularly didn't like the long trigger pull and issues with the mags.
deadlyfire
09-21-11, 13:34
:confused: I honestly had no clue with was an actual technique.
Largely because it's not. It's happenstance that can sometimes-not-always be induced by a shooter, and mostly-not-always feeds the gun. I'm pretty confident that one would be extremely hard-pressed to find a single manufacturer that said they designed their weapons with that in mind.
The open bolt on an AR design may go home with a sharp rap somewhere on the gun other than the bolt catch and without touching the charging handle, but I'd challenge anybody to find someone with enough sense to pour piss out of a boot who's teaching other people to conduct AR speed reloads that way.
There's a pretty significant difference between somebody who's willing to take a positive advantage of something that may occur based on a weapon's design and somebody depending upon something to perform consistently in contravention to how the weapon is designed.
The latter is what's being misidentified as "technique." It's not; it's letting Fate decide in an instance in which YOU, the shooter, should be the one deciding.
With all this said, I wonder if there could be any liability issues to a manufacturer if lets say a LEO dies as a result of the slide going forward on a reload, NOT stripping a round and failing to fire. I know it's a big IF, but one never knows with these things.
R.
I can get most pistols to do it, and as I said before in the thread, I have seen this technique cause guns to choke and students to fumble. To get it to work, the shooter needs to slam the mag in with more force than necessary to seat the mag, and the hardest reload is not the fastest reload.
People are free to reload their guns however they like, but I would rather help people be better if they want to be better.
I just wanted to comment on this. Because I live in Kalifornia, our magazines are castrated to 10 rounds. Due to the lawyers, they go to extreme measures to make sure there is no physical way in hell to insert an 11th round. Thus, inserting a full 10-round magazine into my M&P9 on a closed slide/bolt is VERY hard. I learned the hard way the opposite, in fact, that I must insert the magazine with a pretty hard slap to get it to seat at all (the same is true on my AR 10-round magazines... if not worse since it's harder to get leverage on the carbine for a hard slap on the mag). Trust me, when I first started to do more "practical" shooting where a bit more speed was needed, I had more than one instance of my magazine clattering to the floor until I learned what the mechanical problem was with the 10-round magazines... I decided that the solution to download all my magazines by 1-round just didn't seem like a good idea... sacrificing another 10% of remaining magazine capacity (after castration from ~17 rounds) due to our lawyers? ugh.
That said, on the M&P9 in this case, it's hard NOT to have the slide autoforward on a typical reload from slide-lock if only because I default to a pretty hard slap regardless of it being a reload on empty or a tac-load on a closed slide.
Sure, the "feature" is not to be relied on... sometimes the slide doesn't jump forward... but it takes a split second to notice if the slide is forward or not, so a power-stroke can easily be used if necessary. I think the most important thing is to understand your personal weapon system and know what it will or will not do in your personal circumstances.
I use the same technique on my M&P9 as I do on my Glock 19 and gee, the Glock doesn't auto-forward, so I know that when the slide is open, I power-stroke it to chamber a round.
If the auto-forward happens, it happens. If the gun malfunctions, it malfunctions. We all train to solve these issues on the fly... it's sort of why we train at all, no?
I don't know why people are so up in arms about this, but it is the internet, after all...
Magic_Salad0892
10-10-11, 14:08
My girlfriend had this happen on a HKP2000 that she carries.
It cause the slide to close, mid feed. Which deformed the cartridge case, and made it unusable.
The extractor also had to be replaced, because it was bent out of shape.
HK replaced the extractor, free of charge.
RancidSumo
10-10-11, 14:13
My pistol (M&P9) does this every time, even with only one round in the mag. I wish it wouldn't after reading this thread and learning that sometimes that causes the slide to go forward and not take a round with it.
CarlosDJackal
10-10-11, 14:31
... I have personally experienced using this technique particularly with a Glock or a Sig Sauer are;
1) A round may not actually chamber. On certain weapons this can be due to a jarring the weapon without a clean insertion.
2) Failure to correctly feed due to the round popping or nosing upward.
3) Missing the reload all together because I am more focused on the hard insertion. Of course this can be looked at as a training issue and not a mechanical one...
I have observed a fourth: Failure of the slide to actually release.
When the user gets back on target only to have nothing happen when they pull that trigger. One they realize what has happened the puzzled look followed by one of embarrassment makes for great comic relief every time.
I don't rely on it myself. To me it's an indication that your slide stop spring may be a little weak.
I have observed a fourth: Failure of the slide to actually release.
When the user gets back on target only to have nothing happen when they pull that trigger. One they realize what has happened the puzzled look followed by one of embarrassment makes for great comic relief every time.
I don't rely on it myself. To me it's an indication that your slide stop spring may be a little weak.
After shooting M&P's for three years i changed my reload technique and experienced that exact thing...i have it on video too...bleh.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.