How Do You Measure Your Accuracy?

[Belmont31R]

Seems there is a million ways to do this, and no one is on the same wave length.



Myself...I think there are two different accuracy departments. Bench shooting for groups and practical accuracy. For bench shooting I abhore people who shoot 1-2 groups, discount the other 20 they shot, and call their gun a half MOA shooter when their real average is north of MOA. My self measured group shooting is around 1.5MOA with a few different loads, and a few 10 shot groups of each.


For practical accuracy I am lucky to have a range 30 minutes away that goes from 50 to 1k yards, and has tons of steel targets. For practical accuracy I do things like like 3 LaRue's at 500 as quickly as I can. For instance...today I shot just over 300 rounds of combined 556 and 308. None of it was group shooting. I do drills like going R-L on the 3 LaRue's at 500 as quickly as I can. It takes me about 5-6 seconds to engage all 3 with a 308, and Im about 80-90% hitting all 3. I rarely miss 2. You can do the same thing at 750. Another practical accuracy drill I do is a LaRue at 250, 500, and then 750. This requires me to set the scope up for the 250 shot, then the 500, and finally the 750. Each distance change requires I set the elevation, windage, and parallax.



So what do you use to measure your accuracy...both bench and practical? What LR drills do you do?


The next time Im out Im going to see if my P&S camera will do video at 500 so I can film some 500Y X3 drills I do.

[pointblank4445]

Personally, I think that aside from shooting large 10+ round groups in a factory setting with as much human element removed (even pulling the trigger) is probably the only time PRACTICAL shooters need to be concerned with "group size". After a rifle's accuracy potential is established by this, the shooter's main concern should be putting the round(s) on precisely on target. The internet is littered with pics of targets, superimposed lines/measurements, and calipers showing tiny groupings several inches from dead center and the assumed point of aim. I also don't buy into that nonsense "that's where I was aiming". Bullshit. I equate all of this to taking photos of the end-product of a good masturbation session......it may very well be impressive, but you didn't put it where it needed to go.:sarcastic:

I am a big advocate of what some call the "Dot Drill." Essentially 1 round is placed on each of 16 1/2" dots. Difficulty can vary with distance and time allowed. After mastering this, longer distances are really a matter of maintaining your fundamentals and doing the proper calculations/adjustments.

[Alaskapopo]

Seems there is a million ways to do this, and no one is on the same wave length.



Myself...I think there are two different accuracy departments. Bench shooting for groups and practical accuracy. For bench shooting I abhore people who shoot 1-2 groups, discount the other 20 they shot, and call their gun a half MOA shooter when their real average is north of MOA. My self measured group shooting is around 1.5MOA with a few different loads, and a few 10 shot groups of each.


For practical accuracy I am lucky to have a range 30 minutes away that goes from 50 to 1k yards, and has tons of steel targets. For practical accuracy I do things like like 3 LaRue's at 500 as quickly as I can. For instance...today I shot just over 300 rounds of combined 556 and 308. None of it was group shooting. I do drills like going R-L on the 3 LaRue's at 500 as quickly as I can. It takes me about 5-6 seconds to engage all 3 with a 308, and Im about 80-90% hitting all 3. I rarely miss 2. You can do the same thing at 750. Another practical accuracy drill I do is a LaRue at 250, 500, and then 750. This requires me to set the scope up for the 250 shot, then the 500, and finally the 750. Each distance change requires I set the elevation, windage, and parallax.



So what do you use to measure your accuracy...both bench and practical? What LR drills do you do?


The next time Im out Im going to see if my P&S camera will do video at 500 so I can film some 500Y X3 drills I do.

I shoot 5 5 shot groups and get the average at 100 yards from the bench. For practical accuracy I shoot drills and qualificaiton courses.

Pat

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

With my hunting rifles I work my handload until I am printing under 1/2" or better at 200 yards from the prone/bench, with a 5 shot cold bore group. Only then do I move past 200 yards in the testing. I also never let my barrel heat up to the point that my POI changes.

Once the load is GTG at 200 yards I run her through the chrno then I move on to shooting a steel poper I have at ranges from 300 to 1400 yards. So i can practice my corrections and feild shooting positions.

I wish I had a range like you mentioned near me it sounds great

Jon

[Alaskapopo]

With my hunting rifles I work my handload until I am printing under 1/2" or better at 200 yards from the prone/bench, with a 5 shot cold bore group. Only then do I move past 200 yards in the testing. I also never let my barrel heat up to the point that my POI changes.

Once the load is GTG at 200 yards I run her through the chrno then I move on to shooting a steel poper I have at ranges from 300 to 1400 yards. So i can practice my corrections and feild shooting positions.

I wish I had a range like you mentioned near me it sounds great

Jon

Umm really you get 1/2 inch groups at 200 yards with a hunting rifle. That is 1/4 moa. Sorry but I would have to see that to believe it.
Pat

[kartoffel]

Good observations, y'all.

Cold bore shots are critical. Dot drills teach you to put shots where they count, rather than just into tight groups.

As for criticism of target photos where there's a tight group that's not in the x ring... well, sometimes people don't bother to adjust their sights (or hold off) just to shoot a group. Holes where you intended to put them will always trump holes that merely happen to be close to one another.

[m1ajunkie]

When I was shooting my rifle to get a good load, I used 5 round groups initially, then follow up with a couple 10 round groups at 100yds. When I am satisfied with that I move on to shooting steel at the longer ranges. I am new to the game and my 700yd range is about 1.5hr away so it's not often I get to go, but now that I have good loads for my .308 I want to start shooting more practical on steel. Groups are fun, but any one can shoot a good group with time and practice.

As far as cold bore shots, my rifles seems to be shooting about .5moa high with the cold bore shot, but then the rest of the group is right around that so it still makes a nice group. When I get back to the 500yd range in a couple weeks I plan to make a 500yd cold bore first thing and shoot no groups that day, just shoot diff ranges and learning to dope wind. So far I have only shot in a headwind that seemed to only have an effect of 2moa at 700yds, I feel when wind gets tougher I will start having trouble.

[TAZ]

I generally average five 5 shot groups to see how consistently I am shooting. There has been discussion about using 10 shot groups or even larger stings of fire, but I haven't bought into that cool aid yet. I can certainly understand the desire to average larger strings, but I feel there is a point of diminishing returns there.

Lately I haven spent much time shooting for groups aside from establishing a zero or verifying dope. Most if the time I spend trying to hit what I am aiming at. I establish a goal of say hitting a 2" dot at 100 yds, be it cold bore, hot bore, sitting, kneeling, prone, timd, untimed...whatever. Once I am able to do that reliably I shrink the target size.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Umm really you get 1/2 inch groups at 200 yards with a hunting rifle. That is 1/4 moa. Sorry but I would have to see that to believe it.
Pat

LOL well Pat if you didnt live in Alaska I would say come on over and I will let you shoot them for groups your self, their custom rifles and I only shoot handloads let me see If I can find some pics of course you will have to take my word for it.

Here is a thread from last year about one of my 260 rems and pic below
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/aps-260-rem-shoots-2-875-yards-56948/
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn119/ICANHITHIMMAN/rifles014.jpg

[Alaskapopo]

LOL well Pat if you didnt live in Alaska I would say come on over and I will let you shoot them for groups your self, their custom rifles and I only shoot handloads let me see If I can find some pics of course you will have to take my word for it.

Here is a thread from last year about one of my 260 rems and pic below
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/aps-260-rem-shoots-2-875-yards-56948/
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn119/ICANHITHIMMAN/rifles014.jpg

Ok now it makes more sence. A hunting rifle to me is a big game gun in 30 06 or larger with a sporter barrel. Those guns you have are more like tactical rifles that are used for hunting.
Pat

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Ok not it makes more sence. A hunting rifle to me is a big game gun in 30 06 or larger with a sporter barrel. Those guns you have are more like tactical rifles that are used for hunting.
Pat

Got ya, I sold that one it was a great rifle for sure but I needed more power so I had these built both 30cal magnums and they perform the same.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn119/ICANHITHIMMAN/0035.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn119/ICANHITHIMMAN/0042.jpg

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I do a lot of load development for guys who are just getting into hand loading or close friends. It’s pretty easy to get an off the shelf hunting rifle to perform like this as well. It takes a lot of patience and I usually go through a guys rifle with him before we head to the range.

Jon

[MistWolf]

Personally, I think that aside from shooting large 10+ round groups in a factory setting with as much human element removed (even pulling the trigger) is probably the only time PRACTICAL shooters need to be concerned with "group size". After a rifle's accuracy potential is established by this, the shooter's main concern should be putting the round(s) on precisely on target. The internet is littered with pics of targets, superimposed lines/measurements, and calipers showing tiny groupings several inches from dead center and the assumed point of aim. I also don't buy into that nonsense "that's where I was aiming". Bullshit. I equate all of this to taking photos of the end-product of a good masturbation session......it may very well be impressive, but you didn't put it where it needed to go.:sarcastic:

I am a big advocate of what some call the "Dot Drill." Essentially 1 round is placed on each of 16 1/2" dots. Difficulty can vary with distance and time allowed. After mastering this, longer distances are really a matter of maintaining your fundamentals and doing the proper calculations/adjustments.

The ability to accurately place a shot as the shooter chooses is not the same as shooting for accuracy.

When testing the accuracy of the rifle, it does not matter if the point of impact is the same as the point of aim. In fact, it's best that the two are different, especially when using a scope of high magnification. Tear out your point of aim and a variable is introduced. Also, one must find where a rifle is consistently grouping before the POA can be moved to in relationship to the POI as the shooter chooses. Shooting for accuracy tells the shooter where to expect the bullet to impact. If the rifle is consistently capable of 1.5 MOA, the shooter knows that the bullet will strike somewhere within an approximate radius of .75 inch of the intended POI at 100 yards, 1.5 inch radius at 200 and so on, assuming the shooter makes no mistakes.

Shooting for accuracy is just a tool and each shooter is free to use it as they see fit. If it doesn't fit in one tool box, it doesn't mean it's nothing but a useless sex toy in another

[bkb0000]

The internet is littered with pics of targets, superimposed lines/measurements, and calipers showing tiny groupings several inches from dead center and the assumed point of aim. I also don't buy into that nonsense "that's where I was aiming". Bullshit.

well i don't know why anyone would claim they were aiming at a blank spot off center... but the reason you see tiny groups off center is because the point is the group size. if the indivdual were to properly zero, the same group would be in the center of the target. you can balk at this if you want, but if the sole purpose is to demonstrate a group size, what difference does it make where the group lands? the weapon's degree of precision has been demonstrated- whether the scope is dialed in or not.

as to how i measure accuracy/precision (i still dont fully understand the difference, or care).... i've never been a LR or bench shooter, so i'm just not that good of a marksman, i guess. it's hard for me to shoot 10 clean shots in a row, even if i have the patience for it. so the rare times i do actually sit down at the bench and test accuracy- usually just during zero or zero confirm- 5 shot groups will satisfy me. i'll shoot 5-10 5-shot groups, and average them out, and generalize my average as the weapon's degree of precision. while this isn't nearly as scientific as, say, molon's methods- i feel it's definitely "good enough."

for a magnum bolt gun... 3 shot groups. the weapon only holds 3- i'm not going to continue shooting at the same POA after i have to **** eveything up reloading. if i get 3 shots in a .5 MOA group, i don't just assume it's a 1/2MOA gun- i keep shooting more 3-round groups, and average them out. and i don't understand how this is any different than shooter a longer string, aside from subtracting some human shortcomings.

after that, it's just about hits. paper plates are generally always my targets of choice, sometimes 3x5 cards for headshots, and this is the same for carbine or precision gun. so long as i hit the plate/card, i'm totally content, whether 10m or 300m.

[Artos]

1/2" averages at 200yds can win wood at many benchrest matches...not easy, even with windflags and full blown benchrest guns.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

1/2" averages at 200yds can win wood at many benchrest matches...not easy, even with windflags and full blown benchrest guns.

Man I wish we had shoots like that in NY. I have to beg just to find a place to shoot thats over 200 yards.

[Rocca]

How do I measure accuracy?
Well I classify accuracy two ways. Rifle accuracy and personal accuracy.
1st I like to work up loads for the best rifle accuracy I can.
If I put my rifle on the bench (in a vise if I had one) to hold it perfectly still and adjust the vise/ rest so that its exactly centered on target and then just use my finger to pull the trigger (just like bench rest shooters do) that gives me the RIFLES ACCURACY. Right now I'm not interested in how well I shoot the gun. I'm interested in how accurate the rifle itself is. work up load sto get the best groups you can from that barrel. If you can get 1/4" groups @ 100yds from it consistently its a 1/4 MOA gun... PERIOD. You can brag all you want that you have a 1/4 MOA rifle.
That doesnt mean that no matter what you will always shoot 1/4 MOA accuracy with it. it means the RILFE itself WILL shoot 1/4 MOA.
Then theres PERSONAL ACCURACY. If you shoot the gun the way you will be shooting it away from the range, be it with a bipod, rifle rest, sandbags, or off hand that will give you your personal accuracy. If the gun will shoot 1/4 moa out of a vise but you just cant seem to shoot anythign better than 3/4 moa the way you will actually be shooting the gun then you can shoot 3/4 moa accuracy.
I guess technicaly your gun is shooting 1/4 moa and youre shooting 1/2 moa = 3/4 moa. If you gun cant do better than 2 moa in a vise and you shoot 2 1/2 moa YOU are still shooting 1/2 moa accuracy and the gun is doing the rest. Does that make sence? (If thats the case its time for a new barrel, trigger, or more load development.) No matter what, you will never be able to shoot better than the gun will shoot by itself (vise held).

I was at the range last Thursady and a guy ther eshowed me his newly built AR15 with a 24" Hbar. (almost exactly like the one I ordered that should be arriving today). he was telling me on the phone how he built this rifle and it was a tack driver. Well, he shot the 1st 23 rounds, using a bipod, of his 30 round magazine while I used my 32x scope to call his hits for him. He ended up shooting around a 3" group with 23 shots (centered about 3" high and 2" left of the 1" center ring bullseye) and then proceded to tell me this was factory ammo and therefore the big group. He offered to let me shoot the last 7 round. I wasnt expecting much so I was very suprised that all 7 shots were inside the 1" center ring. The excuse then changed to " my hands are freezing. And they probably were. I know mine were. I bet the gun IS a tack driver with the right load. Even if he cant shoot it that way.
Anyway, after shooting his 24" AR with pretty much the same configuration as mine but with different brand parts and with factory ammo I'm very excited to get mine today and start working up loads. sorry I got off track there at the end. :blink:

SO, thats how I measure accuracy.