View Full Version : M9 Catastrophic Failure at range
My friend sent me this picture he took today at the qual range at Ft. Benning. He said the soldier it was issued to was firing issued ammo as normal, and the slide just flew off as he fired a round. I know the kind of abuse training weapons take from my own personal experience, but how does a slide break like this? it looks like a clean break at the front of the ejection port. Anybody else seen anything like this?
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/smurfyc84/189883_10150137291117993_561527992_6601345_3331825_n.jpg
Hope nobody was hurt.
Ask your friend if he or anyone accomplished a pre-fire inspection of the weapon before firing.
Cagemonkey
03-25-11, 18:25
Very rare, but it happens. Before the M9's received the slide catch modification, Armorers in the USMC had to maintain round counts. Guns that fired 1000 rounds had to have their slides replaced. Supposedly this is not so much a design flaw as it was bad metallurgy in the slide steel of earlier American made M9's. I'm glad my M92FS is an Italian made gun.
QuietShootr
03-25-11, 18:25
My friend sent me this picture he took today at the qual range at Ft. Benning. He said the soldier it was issued to was firing issued ammo as normal, and the slide just flew off as he fired a round. I know the kind of abuse training weapons take from my own personal experience, but how does a slide break like this? it looks like a clean break at the front of the ejection port. Anybody else seen anything like this?
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/smurfyc84/189883_10150137291117993_561527992_6601345_3331825_n.jpg
yup. looks like the safety pin worked, or he'd be at the dentist now.
shittercrewchief
03-25-11, 18:25
This is a known problem with high round count M9's. do a web search for "M9 slide failure". Some interesting stuff to say the least.
I shot him an email asking if they had done a pre-range inspection and if they knew the round count, but he hasn't gotten back to me yet. I imagine that it will be a 'no' on both accounts. It is fortunate that nobody was hurt. Thanks for the info, I didn't know this was a known issue for early production M9s.
Well known issue on Beretta 92 series weapons that don't get preventive maintenance, such as replacing the recoil spring, locking block, etc. every 5K rounds or so.
No telling how many thousands of rounds that piece had seen without any maintenance.
The M92FS and M9 have an emergency slide stop built into the frame that prevents the slide from leaving the frame from the rear to prevent someone from catching half the slide in the face.
Magic_Salad0892
03-25-11, 18:45
The M92FS and M9 have an emergency slide stop built into the frame that prevents the slide from leaving the frame from the rear to prevent someone from catching half the slide in the face.
Do all open barrel Beretta models have this feature or is that only on the M9 series?
The enlarged hammer pin was introduced with the 92FS
All open topped models post-92FS should have it.
Do all open barrel Beretta models have this feature or is that only on the M9 series?
As opmike stated, the M92F series and older models do not have the stop.
I've also never, ever heard of this happening to anything other than military M9's that have outlived their service lives or were not given preventive maintenance.
I had this exact thing happen to me in Army basic back in '95. Front half of the slide flew forward about five yards, the barrel about half that distance and there I was holding the frame and half the slide. I was new to pistols back then so I thought I did something wrong. The drill sergeants didn't do much to make me think otherwise.
Seen several times. This failure should be expected, especially in high round count pool guns that don't get required PM.
The 90-series is generally reliable, but not durable.
Damn, and here I'm due to qaulify in a month or so. Now I'm think ing I may need to go to sick call that day :D
Doesn't surprise me though. Those things go a good twenty minutes between maintenance or inspections. Hell, if it's clean when it's turned in, I doubt any of them get a real thourough inspection, much less a round count or part replacements.
Machurtado
03-25-11, 21:55
Wasn't this one of the reasons that the seals went with the sig 226 as the standard sidearm?
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-25-11, 22:14
gosh thats a little scary never seen this myself only heard of it back in the day. Hope no one was hurt.
It is sad to say But our armorer Did nothing But unlock the Cage and Roll out racks.Once at the range I was stuck in the Box with him to help :confused: I got to listen to him bitch about his wife for two Hours!!!
I did see a 92F On the Wall as we was putting Our M4s In for the weekend (I got to be the one to call serial Numbers On all 150 of them:suicide2:)
But I did not realize It was a CF .
we did Qualify On the 92FS and Only had One go down .which i think was a Firing pin problem .
The Sgt took it tossed it in a box and grabbed another from the rack .
When I was in the USCG I rebuilt completely from the frame up something in the neighborhood of 50 Berettas. I have only seen one Beretta do what is pictured here.
However, I have seen a number where the frames and slides were cracked. The slides were cracked probably because recoil springs and locking blocks weren't being replaced, which beat up the guns.
The frames cracked from overtightening the grip screws and leaving the star washer out.
Common denominator to all of this was shitty inspections being performed by those responsible because we were in a "war zone" and there wasn't time for it.
variablebinary
03-26-11, 06:14
That's an pretty impressive failure.
All of our M9's are beat all to hell, and probably should have been taken out of service years ago.
The M9/92/92FS platform really, really needs several things throughout it's forecasted lifespan: Recoil spring, trigger return spring, slide release spring, and triggerbar spring replaced every 5K rounds, sufficient lubrication (and by sufficient I'm referring to the amount of lube, the location of lube placement, and a lube of sufficient viscosity for a given environment), and locking block inspection and periodic replacement (with a quality OEM locking block) as preventive maintenance (the replacement interval varies depending on generation of locking block).
Give the accomplishment of all of the above, a 92 platform gun can be both reliable and durable.
Pre-92FS guns lacked the enlarged hammer axis pin which retained the slide in the event of a catastrophic breakage/slide seperation as seen. Additionally, some early M9 contract guns had their slides made with trace elements of tellurium in their alloy, which weakened them rendering them susceptible to cracking/breaking as shown. Another thing to keeep in mind is that NATO-strength 9mm is reportedly the equivalent of 9mm +P+ in accordance with SAAMI specs-and while the guns are designed for it, preventive maintenance/parts replacement (especially recoil spring replacement) is essential.
Best, Jon
NATO-strength 9mm is reportedly the equivalent of 9mm +P+ in accordance with SAAMI specs-
Respectfully, while the rest of your post is accurate, this bit has proven to be inaccurate.
Most of the M882 ball that I have seen is barely hotter than WWB, a 124gr running 1150fps isn't exactly smoking along.
As has been said before, ALL weapons require periodic inspection by trained armorers AND more frequently by the user. This should be part of training but if you don't know how to do it, find out.
In all classes we taught, operator maintenance was required. It is more than just how to clean and lube the weapon, it should also cover how to inspect and function check.
I have seen two Berettas do this, but they were a result of improper maintenance (neglect) on the user/their armorer.
I hold the Beretta in very high regard. I stayed on top of maintenance and periodic locking block/trigger bar/recoil spring replacements and I never, ever had a problem with it over an absolute ton of rounds, until we switched to Glocks. I carried it over a 1911. I only used Beretta factory mags as well. I don't necessarily care for the ergonomics or DA/SA mech in general but if i were forced to carry a Beretta again I wouldn't feel cheated.
Respectfully, while the rest of your post is accurate, this bit has proven to be inaccurate.
Most of the M882 ball that I have seen is barely hotter than WWB, a 124gr running 1150fps isn't exactly smoking along.
Thanks for the update; I wonder if this "downgraded NATO" 9mm is just regarding US production stuff, or if other foreign military 9mm ammunition produced to "NATO" specifications has been similarly de-powered?
Best, Jon
I actually had to do the standard AF qualification on the M9 earlier this week. I enjoy the pistol very much and own my own commercial M9, which I've abused but have always kept maintained and never neglected. The CATM instructor mentioned that we were firing relatively new Berettas, less than or equal to 2 years old. He also mentioned none of the springs had been changed :eek:. These range Berettas see weekly, if not more often, use. Now since CATM is not my job in the AF I'm sure there is more to their maintenance schedule, but all the instructor had us do was field strip it and wipe the rails clean after firing. If I have to use my pistol something went seriously wrong, but it makes me less confident in my issued weapon when I fly with it.
I actually had to do the standard AF qualification on the M9 earlier this week. I enjoy the pistol very much and own my own commercial M9, which I've abused but have always kept maintained and never neglected. The CATM instructor mentioned that we were firing relatively new Berettas, less than or equal to 2 years old. He also mentioned none of the springs had been changed :eek:. These range Berettas see weekly, if not more often, use. Now since CATM is not my job in the AF I'm sure there is more to their maintenance schedule, but all the instructor had us do was field strip it and wipe the rails clean after firing. If I have to use my pistol something went seriously wrong, but it makes me less confident in my issued weapon when I fly with it.
Timbonez,
Sent you a PM.
Got it, thanks. I appreciate the info on the springs.
I have 7 Beretta 92 variants, and I love the guns. As others said - change the springs out every 5k - although the locking block is recommended at every 20K.
I plan to do it every 15k on mine.
However, I have seen a number where the frames and slides were cracked. The slides were cracked probably because recoil springs and locking blocks were being replaced, which beat up the guns.
The M9 I first qualified with way back when cracked the slide midway through my qual. I didn't even realize it, just thought it was a crappy range pistol. Only knew the slide cracked when the range NCO chewed me a new one for "busting his weapon." Upon further inspection, it was obvious there was nothing some recruit could have done on the range to crack the slide the way this one did. Still remember that day vividly...
H
Thanks for the update; I wonder if this "downgraded NATO" 9mm is just regarding US production stuff, or if other foreign military 9mm ammunition produced to "NATO" specifications has been similarly de-powered?
Best, Jon
Not from what I have seen. Even stuff like the L7a1 British stuff that was supposed to be all "for SMG use only" was no hotter than any other +P 9mm load that I have seen.
The Winchester 127gr seems to be about as hot as I have seen anywhere
Respectfully, while the rest of your post is accurate, this bit has proven to be inaccurate.
Most of the M882 ball that I have seen is barely hotter than WWB, a 124gr running 1150fps isn't exactly smoking along.
tpd223,
Have you chrono'd this ammo?
tpd223,
Have you chrono'd this ammo?
Yes.
And I found that the M882 marked Winchester runs 50-75 fps faster than WWB, depends on the lot #, what gun, weather, etc.
I've shot both a few times for giggles to see if it was a trend. It was.
I have not done so recently though, as in the past couple of years.
Of course the M882 is 124gr, and WWB is 115gr, but WWB isn't exactly known as being "hot" ammo.
The +P 124gr Gold Dot, Ranger-T, and HST are all faster than the M882 by a wide margin. The 127gr Ranger-T is MUCH faster. So are various other available loads such as the stuff Cor Bon makes.
Some ammo that by reputation was supposed to be uber hot really wasn't.
Remember the Uzi black tip 9mm ammo? Barely +p velocities.
That Hirtenberger 100gr soft point stuff that was supposed to be 1500+fps "counter-terrorist" ammo?
Ummm, yeah, barely made it over 1200fps
Very interesting; while I prefer either the Winchester 127gr +P+ or Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P as carry loads in my Glocks, but in my Beretta 92D I use Federal 115gr standard pressure 9BP Classic as my carry load of preference. It has a good track record for both accuracy, performance/stopping power, and while not as "state of the art" as other more recent hollow points, I trust it to get the job done as well as reduce wear and tear on the gun.
Best, Jon
I used to carry the 9BP as well. It was a very accurate load, and decent for the day when your choices were Silvertip, ball and JSP.
Doc has documented a 20% or greater failure rate in these bullets when it comes to expansion, they don't penetrate very well when they do expand, and they suck bad on barriers.
For carry ammo I'd go with a non +P load such as the 124gr Gold Dot or HST, or one of the 147gr loads.
A friend who used to run a Beretta as his primary, and is a hell of an old school accuracy guy, bullseye/PPC shooter (as in can hit steel at the 200, with a Glock 33, on demand) used to run the 127gr Ranger-T in his gun as he liked the ballistics, and due to the extreme accuracy he got from the gun/ammo combo.
Cagemonkey
03-27-11, 09:00
Google'd M9 Beretta slide failures last night. Besides lack of preventative maintenance, Metallurgy was noted as the main problem. The basic operating mechanism of the Beretta was derived from the Walther P38. Also, many nations use the Beretta M9 type pistol as their service issue pistol and it doesn't seem that slide failures are an epidemic problem. IMHO this issue is overblown.
Google'd M9 Beretta slide failures last night. Besides lack of preventative maintenance, Metallurgy was noted as the main problem. The basic operating mechanism of the Beretta was derived from the Walther P38. Also, many nations use the Beretta M9 type pistol as their service issue pistol and it doesn't seem that slide failures are an epidemic problem. IMHO this issue is overblown.
And I believe the metallurgy issue was when the Beretta was relatively new to the military (i.e. 1980's). As far as I'm aware, this has been corrected. I'm sure preventative maintenance is the main issue these days, and even then, like you said, the issue seems overblown.
IMHO this issue is overblown.
Overblown in the sense that it isn't as big a problem as the errornet likes to claim? Of course.
Overblown that it wasn't/isn't an issue? Can't really say. In all my years around firearms, the M9 I qualified on back at Boot was the ONLY pistol I have ever fired that cracked a slide, but not in such a way that the slide split like the one in the OP's photo.
Regardless, the number of bad eggs out of all of the serviceable M9s out there remains a negligible number. Kind of like the 1/1million people who dies from asthma-related causes while taking salmeterol for their asthma. Problem becomes once the arfcommers and their ilk get a hold of it, they make the claim that the M9 is a dangerous pistol. Just my .02, folks.
H
Yes.
And I found that the M882 marked Winchester runs 50-75 fps faster than WWB, depends on the lot #, what gun, weather, etc.
I've shot both a few times for giggles to see if it was a trend. It was.
I have not done so recently though, as in the past couple of years.
Of course the M882 is 124gr, and WWB is 115gr, but WWB isn't exactly known as being "hot" ammo.
The +P 124gr Gold Dot, Ranger-T, and HST are all faster than the M882 by a wide margin. The 127gr Ranger-T is MUCH faster. So are various other available loads such as the stuff Cor Bon makes.
Some ammo that by reputation was supposed to be uber hot really wasn't.
Remember the Uzi black tip 9mm ammo? Barely +p velocities.
That Hirtenberger 100gr soft point stuff that was supposed to be 1500+fps "counter-terrorist" ammo?
Ummm, yeah, barely made it over 1200fps
That's funny. The TM put out by the Army has it at 1230 fps (I think).
The Winchester site lists their M882 ammo at 1185fps.
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/full-metal-jacket/Pages/default.aspx
I recall chronographing some lots as slow as 1135-ish, some just over 1200fps.
The military test barrel is like 7" IIRC, which would help explain why the velocity is higher on the spec.
some years ago when I chronographed m882 USGI ball my average velocity was 1280- This was with USGI ammo out of Berettas- most of the chrono data shown around is with 4 or 4.5 inch barrels and the berettas roughly 5 inch barrel may add some speed.
When ransom rested I found that the guns I was testing- randomly selected rack guns from units- ran from about 1.5-2.5 inch groups at 25 yards. Rather good accuracy. These were guns in Guard units prior to the high op tempo use these guns and the troops are seeing today. We selected the best shooting guns for out competitive shooting team.
Federal M882 ball 124gr FMJ avg for 10 shots 1268 FPS thru my chronograph from a Beretta 92FS.
CAVDOC, that ammo would be out of spec on the hot side with velocities like that.
Back in the day the original M9 slide failures were attributed to the very high round counts the Navy Seals were putting through the guns; hence the saying 'You're not a Navy Seal until you've eaten Italian steel'. :D
theblackknight
04-20-11, 10:59
If I have to use my pistol something went seriously wrong,
I really hate when people say this
Look on the bright side!! You can get yourself a model G slide as a replacement! Decocker only... No more model F safety/decocker.
I've seen this before. A well known consequence of the weaker (less expensive) metals on VERY VERY WELL USED 92series handguns. Just like the locking block.
Personally I love Beretta, and fired upwards of 5000 rds through mine with no issues, and I can count the malfunctions on 1 hand (all from magazines problems)
*However*... I do know they are problematic once they get into the tens of thousands of rounds. Slides fall apart, and locking blocks break. The Beretta USA website lists that the weakest part of the 92 series is the locking block with an avg. lifespan of 22,000 rds.
The one other 92 I saw with this same problem was part of a rental fleet firing standard pressure 115gr target ball. So it saw A LOT of rounds.
I really hate when people say this
Judging by his avatar and profile, he's justified.
I really hate when people say this
You can hate it all you want, but cynical is right. Using my M9 means something bad happened to my jet, I successfully ejected, and I wasn't injured during ejection or during my descent to the ground. Worrying about my M9 is but one minor issue when compared to all the other shit I would have to deal with in that situation.
I like the Beretta, and I own my own commercial M9. I'd much rather take my own than the issued one.
ThirdWatcher
04-20-11, 17:26
I carried a 92F for a dozen years (until my agency went to .40 S&W). The department armorers inspected all weapons annually. Part of the protocol of the inspection of the Berettas was to disassemble the pistol and then hit the slide with a brass hammer... supposedly a cracked slide would sound different than a good one.
Combat_Diver
04-25-11, 10:14
We shot tens of thousands of rounds thru our M9s and I never saw an issue. Guess we had armorers due their job.
CD
We shot tens of thousands of rounds thru our M9s and I never saw an issue. Guess we had armorers due their job.
CD
BINGO!
theblackknight
04-25-11, 10:52
You can hate it all you want, but cynical is right. Using my M9 means something bad happened to my jet, I successfully ejected, and I wasn't injured during ejection or during my descent to the ground. Worrying about my M9 is but one minor issue when compared to all the other shit I would have to deal with in that situation.
I like the Beretta, and I own my own commercial M9. I'd much rather take my own than the issued one.
I realize, but it's contagious. I hear it all the time on the pistol range from guys who spend more time shooting emails the shooting insurgents. While it may be true, it becomes an excuse to not listen to the instuctors, have shitty fundamentals, and then feel good when you barely qual w a shitty score. It's never from the E4s, but the 0-3+'s and E7+. Whats really sad is I hear the same from some of the same types on the CMT Rifle range.
Well Thanks Masterguns, I'm glad to know we can only count on you to do your job until things go wrong. Way to set the example.
Look on the bright side!! You can get yourself a model G slide as a replacement! Decocker only... No more model F safety/decocker.
Where, exactly, do you get a "G" slide?
I realize, but it's contagious. I hear it all the time on the pistol range from guys who spend more time shooting emails the shooting insurgents. While it may be true, it becomes an excuse to not listen to the instuctors, have shitty fundamentals, and then feel good when you barely qual w a shitty score. It's never from the E4s, but the 0-3+'s and E7+. Whats really sad is I hear the same from some of the same types on the CMT Rifle range.
I never said anything about about disregarding instructors, shitty fundamentals, or barely qualifying on the M9. My original post stated that I was a little less confident in having an issued M9, but I would only have to use it if something went seriously wrong. I don't disagree that it is important for every military member to be somewhat proficient with some type of weapon, but let's be serious here. Not everyone is an infantryman or is going to be exposed to hostile fire. Most fixed-winged aircraft are flying in a threat permissive environment in Afghanistan, even when they're supporting troops on the ground. I can't even remember the last time a US jet was shot down in Afghanistan. In general, If there is a system failure on the plane, most can be worked with while still accomplishing the mission. Others might be more serious in nature requiring a land as soon as practical or possible situation. It would only be with a catastrophic failure, forcing a bailout/ejection, where an aviator could possibly be put in a high threat environment on the ground. So the issue of me using my pistol, is again, a very insignificant statistical probability.
Well Thanks Masterguns, I'm glad to know we can only count on you to do your job until things go wrong. Way to set the example.
I'm guessing this is just a general reference to anybody who can't adapt to changes but is also in reference to me. The fact that an aviator is using a handgun is an indication they are no longer able to do their job because things have gone wrong. It means they're no longer flying and now they have become isolated personnel. Their primary concern and JOB is getting back home and effecting their own recovery. They're not going to play John Rambo with a pistol. There are very few situations warranting the use of their pistol and many more where it would only exacerbate their problems. I have no idea what your job is in the military, but you have an idea of mine. My training has prepared me for my job and the possible contingencies associated with it.
I don't want to derail this thread anymore. If you want to discuss this any further we can chat through PMs.
Interesting path this thread has taken in the past couple posts. Timbonez makes a point that to an aircrewman or armored vehicle crewman, the pistol is at best a tertiary weapon only needed in the even of aircraft/vehicle loss to protect yourself and get back to friendly lines where you can be refitted with a new bird. The best place for an airman or crewman is not playing 11B with a 9mm, but in their plane/tank doing what they are trained to do. This certainly leads to the train of thought that training with the pistol is not all that important and it has been my experience that only gun "gun guys" will spend any time training with the weapon seriously.
The problem here is, that if you ever do need your pistol - YOU REALLY NEED YOUR PISTOL! You are most likely facing guys who are better at fighting than you are and are probably better equipped - so you need to be one hell of a good pistolaro if you want to get back to the friendly lines.
Just read Mike Durant's book "In the Company of Heroes" to give you an idea of what you can expect after your bird goes down. He was fortunate to live through his experience and as a result now speaks to aviators on the need to train with small arms as much as the training schedule allows.
Regardless, I am a big fan of the M9 pistol despite my initial (unfounded) trepidations about it. It is a solid design with some known shortcomings which are exasperated by poor military armorers, soldier training, and information. Having carried the weapon for 12 years and being responsible for a tank company's worth of them, I never had a personally issued pistol give me any non-operator induced issues and the only issues I saw with other pistols were either soldier induced or a result of improper maintenance.
Where, exactly, do you get a "G" slide?
The only "G" models I know of that were released in the US were in Elite series of pistols. These pistols had the "Brigadier" slide which have extra material around the locking block slots. The Brigadier slide was not only available on the Elite pistols but also available on 92FS and 92D guns. The Boarder Patrol used a 96D Brigadier for years before going to the H&K. You may be able to find slides available on Gun Broker, or just find a used Brigadier on the market (I don't think they are still being sold new by Beretta). As mentioned, the G model is a de-cocker only (designated "G" for the French "Gendarme" who adopted the pistol in non-Brigadier form) and there is no way to convert a 92FS slide to a "G" slide.
The only "G" models I know of that were released in the US were in Elite series of pistols.
There were plain-jane 92Gs, Centurions, Elites, G-SDs, and Vertecs. The Gs were mostly marketed to the LEO market which is why there are so few compared to the FS. There were a few G slides on sale from BerettaUSA this past month that went very fast.
I had a couple regular 92Gs, and loved them. While I prefer the 92G, I think the whole "may accidentally activate the safety" is overblown on the FS.
There were plain-jane 92Gs, Centurions, Elites, G-SDs, and Vertecs. The Gs were mostly marketed to the LEO market which is why there are so few compared to the FS.
This is correct.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that G models were an LE only item for a time.
The only "G" models I know of that were released in the US were in Elite series of pistols. These pistols had the "Brigadier" slide which have extra material around the locking block slots. The Brigadier slide was not only available on the Elite pistols but also available on 92FS and 92D guns. The Boarder Patrol used a 96D Brigadier for years before going to the H&K. You may be able to find slides available on Gun Broker, or just find a used Brigadier on the market (I don't think they are still being sold new by Beretta). As mentioned, the G model is a de-cocker only (designated "G" for the French "Gendarme" who adopted the pistol in non-Brigadier form) and there is no way to convert a 92FS slide to a "G" slide.
I've had several "G" models over the years and am very familiar with them. My question to the poster "Letustry"'s comment about "just get a "G" slide, is... Where does he expect to buy a "G" slide (only)?
Timbonez has presented a clear, precise explanation of the pistol's role in his pilot mission and has impressed me with his desire to become a knowledgable and competent pistol shooter.
ronin_13769
04-27-11, 17:13
This is correct.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that G models were an LE only item for a time.
At first they were, Indiana State Police were the 1st in the US to issue them back in the early 90's if I remember correctly.
I carried a 92FS back when I worked at the SO here in the early 90's it was the most accurate 9mm I ever shot, but as soon as I was able to carry a different sidearm I went to the Sig226 as I was able to shoot almost as well I liked the feel of the Sig and it just felt more durable, this was from 1990-to 1997. I have never been impressed with the durability of the 92 series pistols, and I can not for the life of me understand why the US Mil has stuck with it and placed a new order for more. The failure pictured at the start of this thread just re-enforces this for me.
I can not for the life of me understand why the US Mil has stuck with it and placed a new order for more. The failure pictured at the start of this thread just re-enforces this for me.
Probably because, when maintained and given proper magazines, they work.
ronin_13769
04-28-11, 10:22
Probably because, when maintained and given proper magazines, they work.
That is true, but I would wonder why most civilian law enforcement agencies that adopted the 92/96 series pistols back in the late 80's and early 90's have switched to different formats?
Maybe because they found a better weapon system that was not as maintenance sensitive, so I would argue that our Warfighters deserve the best systems available to them....
And there are better systems out there that could have been adopted.
That is true, but I would wonder why most civilian law enforcement agencies that adopted the 92/96 series pistols back in the late 80's and early 90's have switched to different formats?
Maybe because they found a better weapon system that was not as maintenance sensitive, so I would argue that our Warfighters deserve the best systems available to them....
And there are better systems out there that could have been adopted.
Maybe because it is an easier task to teach trainees to shoot the Glock and the military has been stuck on manual safeties and DA/SA triggers as a requirement.
In the grand scheme of things, how important do you think a handgun is to the US Military?
ronin_13769
04-28-11, 14:15
Maybe because it is an easier task to teach trainees to shoot the Glock and the military has been stuck on manual safeties and DA/SA triggers as a requirement.
In the grand scheme of things, how important do you think a handgun is to the US Military?
Well I would say that at the time it is needed by the troop using it very important but with your reasoning if it is not important then why place a new order for sub-standard weapons to the tune of a few million dollars?
Well, if an M9 is properly maintained and lubricated, it's more than sufficient for most PDW uses/requirements.
LEO's (both individuals and agencies) probably fire and carry their PDW's FAR more than the contents of most military arms rooms, and subsequently have a quicker/shorter forecasted replacement timeframe-which enables them to move to a different platform if desirable.
I have both a Beretta 92 and a Glock 17 (actually, multiple Glocks). While I prefer the Glock(s) (after all, they're lighter, more weather impervious, require less lubrication and maintenance), the Beretta is still very much a viable defensive firearm.
Keep in mind also that there's a not insignificant amount logistical and training resources already committed to the M9 by DoD. Their inventory of 1911A1s, last manufactured in 1945, weren't begun to be phased out until 1985...
While there may indeed be "better" guns/platforms available in the PDW universe, the Beretta adequately fulfulls the mission requirements for most users-hence the contract renewal. There are other avenues/platforms available for other DoD units with more selective requirements.
Best, Jon
Well I would say that at the time it is needed by the troop using it very important but with your reasoning if it is not important then why place a new order for sub-standard weapons to the tune of a few million dollars?
I did not say it was my reasoning that it wasn't important, I asked how important you thought it was in the big picture.
Obviously , if it can save your life it is important, I don't think anyone is arguing that.
Here we go again...
The military does periodic random testing on M9s. In 1988 M9s slides tested to failure ranged from about 5K rounds to over 30K rounds. In 1998 that failure range had improved to from 55K - 95K rounds w an avg of 75K. Don't know what it is now, I retired in 1998. In those 10 yrs, somebody fixed sumthin' that wasn't broke, the guns, ammo, or testing?
FWIW, the only part w a specified service life in the original 1985 M9 contract was the frame, and it was for just 5K rounds. Failure testing on frames terminates at 35K rounds for some reason, don't ask me why.
A few yrs ago I asked the local base how their M9s were doing. Most of theirs had 30K+ through them then, w no broken slides/frames and few broken blocks. Go figure?
Gotta remember back in 1984 when they tested 'em, the Beretta was considered more durable than the SIG since none of them broke during the 7K endurance test, and two of the SIGs did. Things that make ya go hmmmm?
I remember a few years ago the Baltimore County PD managed to break 52 of their 1300 SIG P226s. Swiss cops have had 9mm P229s break slides and kiss shooters. Stuff happens to everybody eventually.
The Beretta was a good choice in 1985. There are better choices now. We may get sumthin' new by 2015. If not, warts and all, the military covered it's bases in 2009 w a contract worth up to $220 million for up to 450,000 more M9s!?
Anyhow... I never had or saw a problem w the M9s I was issued. Did w the M1911A1s I had before, and the SIG M11s I had after. Haven't had or seen any w my Berettas since I retired in 1998. Some have seen plenty. I'm gonna continure to bet my life on mine. Lady Luck: la belle dame sans merci?
As for M882 NATO ammo... the US mil-spec from an M9 (not a 200mm NATO test bbl) was 1263 fps 15 ft from the muzzle (not NATO's 16m/53 ft). Stuff we had then did just that. Recent stuff may not.
The M882 NATO avg/max presure measured at the case mouth (SAAMI measures at mid case BTW) was 31,175/36,250 psi. Mid case pressures are 8-10K psi higher, which would put M882 NATO mid case pressures above the SAAMI +P limit of 38,500 psi.
COVERBUSTER
05-21-11, 00:09
The M92FS and M9 have an emergency slide stop built into the frame that prevents the slide from leaving the frame from the rear to prevent someone from catching half the slide in the face.
Speaks volumes as to the design of the M9, junk.
Speaks volumes as to the design of the M9, junk.
There is that too.
No doubt about it, it happens. I don't waste time worrying about it though. LAPD/LASD used 'em in more gunfights than the US military did for over 20 yrs w/o it happening. So did about 25 state police agencies. Navy SEALs used Berettas before they were standard issue, since about 1979. Some claimed 3K a week through some of them, and they went about 9 years w/o serious problems. Wassup w dat?
I've got pics of SIGs, HKs, Walthers, and Glocks w broken slides and frames. It's more likley to happen to a Beretta, but the odds are not zero w any gun.
If the US military had gone Glock in 1985, care to guess how many NDs we would have had by now? How many of those NDs would have resulted in injuries? What about the FBI, DEA, and US Marshals who have shot themselves or others in the hands, legs, butt, etc w their Glocks since 1985? In one 5 year period, about one in every eight (14 of 102!?) DOJ shootings during "enforcement operations" involved an "unintentional discharge", almost all Glocks. There were 88 during "non enforcement activities"!? Those guys and gals get waaaay more training than the avg soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine. There is risk, and there is risk. You wanna worry about something, worry about that. Or not.
Every vehicle and aircraft I've been in since I first fired a Beretta was more likely to hurt me; don't worry about that either.
Guns that fired 1000 rounds had to have their slides replaced.
1,000 or 10,000.
I assume you meant 10,000, but just checking.
Cagemonkey
05-21-11, 08:47
1,000 or 10,000.
I assume you meant 10,000, but just checking.
Until the pistols received the slide catch modification, 1000 rounds was all that you could fire through that pistol. Once 1000 rounds were fired the guns were evacuated to 3rd echelon maintenance to have a new slide installed. My unit didn't have the slide mods applied to there M9's until approx 1992.
Wow...really?
I'm glad I have Glocks.
I'm no fan of the M9 and was around when the USMC resisted taking them. Was never issued one even when many other USMC units were forced to. Whenever I hear a weapon is fine if you just do this, this, and this, I wonder if people realize that is an excessive amount of maintenance and support for a firearm especially under difficult field conditions. If you havent' spent weeks in the field with nothing but what you carry on your back then you won't know what I am talking about. Yes our 1911's required a lot of maintenance too but they had other redeeming characteristics the M9 does not have and they were much more durable over the years. Heck the M9 even has more parts than a 1911. This pistol has no place as a military service weapon and if it wasn't for the cost and disruption of fielding a replacement I'm convinced the military would have gotten rid of it by now. But then I would say the same about the M-16.
Note; I am not saying I think we should go back to the 1911. I am saying there are much better solutions than the M9 that are more reliable, durable, simpler, better manual of arms, and require less maintenance overall.
Until the pistols received the slide catch modification, 1000 rounds was all that you could fire through that pistol. Once 1000 rounds were fired the guns were evacuated to 3rd echelon maintenance to have a new slide installed. My unit didn't have the slide mods applied to there M9's until approx 1992.
This was a stop gap, knee jerk response which was way over conservative and applicable to only the first couple batches of M9s. It has not been an issue for almost 20 years now.
If you havent' spent weeks in the field with nothing but what you carry on your back then you won't know what I am talking about. Yes our 1911's required a lot of maintenance too but they had other redeeming characteristics the M9 does not have and they were much more durable over the years. Heck the M9 even has more parts than a 1911. This pistol has no place as a military service weapon and if it wasn't for the cost and disruption of fielding a replacement I'm convinced the military would have gotten rid of it by now. But then I would say the same about the M-16.
While I will disclaim that I have never had to use one in combat, I have spent weeks in the field with my M9 and then promptly qualified with the same weapon with no more that a simple wipe down and a couple drops of Break Free on the locking blocks. I have seen many soldiers having issues with their weapons, taken that same weapon, and shot expert without a malfunction. Why is this? I'm certainly no pistol God. In the end, operator error, lack of proper unit maintenance, and in general piss poor pistol training that is endemic in the Army is the cause of far far more issues than any design deficiency of the M9. If people just swallow the frigging pill, stop crying about their beloved Sig, perfect Glock, or God's own firebolt 1911, and learn the shoot and maintain the weapon, they will find it as good a firearm as any other out there.
Combat_Diver
05-21-11, 23:45
I got issued our first M9s in 87'. We would put an average of 1000 rds per month, month after month. They didn't go back to the 3rd shop that often. I've also lived in holes in the ground and didn't have trouble with my because I did maintance on them (same the my M16 and all the other gear).
CD
FWIW went to a Police Week match at the local base today. If you did not want to shoot your own stuff, they provided a govt gun (Beretta M9), ammo (Win frangible Mk254 Mod O), and holster (Bianchi UM84). During 6 hours of shooting, saw several guns choke, none of them the beat up M9s (about 12 opted for 'em), and they were handing out the crappy Checkmate (Chokemate) mags w 'em too.
Asked the range guys about the M9s. They have cracked slides at very high round counts (50K+), but have never had a catastrophic slide separation. Blocks break at higher round counts too (20K+), they replace 'em. Newer contract guns have several plastic parts (guide rod, hammer, safety lever, slide stop, trigger). They have plenty of older steel guide rods they swap out. The other plastic parts they leave in and haven't had any problems w them.
A Texas State Police pistol team took second place. One of their guys took second individual. Only reason I remember that is there was a woman on their team who was hard to forget...
If the MHS (Modular Handgun System) gets rolling, might have 'em by 2014. What are we gonna do w/o M9s to beat up on?
Those who haven't read the GAO report on the whole M9 affair might find it interesting (historically speaking):
http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf
Yep, interesting stuff.
The Berettas did not break during testing, and the SIGs did, so of course we should have bought the guns that broke instead. C'mon!?
Was the testing rigged? Was the bidding rigged? Did we make a deal for continued use of fighter and future use of cruise missile bases?
Got any proof?
The original contract was for about 320,000 pistols. We have bought over 150,000 more since, and have options on another 450,000. Those Italians make deals as good as their guns.
Those who haven't read the GAO report on the whole M9 affair might find it interesting (historically speaking):
http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf
Thank you for this link! I have been looking for a record of the M9 trials for a long time.
Does anybody know exactly why FN "voluntarily withdrew" its BDA from the trials? Perhaps to save face?
Not from what I have seen. Even stuff like the L7a1 British stuff that was supposed to be all "for SMG use only" was no hotter than any other +P 9mm load that I have seen.
The Winchester 127gr seems to be about as hot as I have seen anywhere
Either you did not "see" the right specifications, or your chrono is malfunctioning.
Your post mentions the "L7A1 British stuff."
Care to elaborate as to what exact ammo you claim to have tested?
I believe you are attempting to refer to 9mm ammunition headstamped "L7A1 HP" and bearing the "cross-hair" stamp - that stamp denoting one of MANY NATO-approved loadings. The bullet employed by the L7A1 is a 124 grn FMJ.
That specific ammunition was indeed made for the British military, but was manufactured by Hirtenberger in Austria.
From a 5" 9mm 1911 or a Glock 34, the velocity of L7A1 ammunition EXCEEDS 1330 FPS. I have tested it personally.
Please show me ANY commercially produced, domestic 124 grn ammo marked "+p" that meets or exceeds that level. The only thing that comes close is a special competition load by Atlanta Arms that they call the ".355 Super" (look it up).
The Winchester +p+ Ranger loading is NOT directly comparable as it uses a heavier bullet (127 grain). As far as commercial loads, it is indeed loaded very hot - which is why is it marked +p+ (meaning: pressure BEYOND established SAAMI +p levels). But again, it is a different bullet entirely.
Some guy over on the High Road posted results from a DIFFERENT Hirtenberger load: their 100 grn load - which is NOT comparable to the surplus L7A1 NATO loading: (he also used some irrelevant 3" barrel gun which will give lower velocity for any ammo tested):
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-2788.html
Maybe you read his post & got your Hirtenberger loadings mixed up?
Federal M882 ball 124gr FMJ avg for 10 shots 1268 FPS thru my chronograph from a Beretta 92FS.
I'm in the group that thinks Federal M882 124 gr FMJ is nothing special as far as velocity is concerned. I chrono'd it out of Glock 17 at 1114 FPS (average).
On the same day with the same gun, I had the following results:
CCI Blazer 115 gr FMJ (aluminum case) = 1153 FPS (average)
CCI Blazer 115 gr FMJ (brass case) = 1120 FPS (average)
S&B 115 gr FMJ = 1162 FPS (average)
Geco/Dynamit Nobel 124 gr FMJ = 1129 FPS (average)
Federal Hydra-Shok 124 gr +P+ JHP = 1167 FPS (average)
To keep this thread on topic, I think it's ridiculous that the Beretta slides have been widely known to crack like the original poster described.
Joe Mamma
I'm in the group that got 1200+ FPS from issued ammo in issued guns.
Considering the slides cracked at 75K rounds on avg in 1998 when I retired, and very, very few were catastrophic breaks like the pic, I don't think it's that ridiculous. Most likely in early contract Italian made guns too; even rarer in the US made guns (>1987) .
That's 3 times the proposed service life (25K) of the new MHS (Modular Handgun System)... and longer than the slides on some SIG M11s and S&W M&Ps I have seen crack. In the 20+ yrs LAPD/LASD used them, how many times did it happen?
I have a list of things worth worrying about; this isn't on it.
Wasn't this one of the reasons that the seals went with the sig 226 as the standard sidearm?
Yes.
"You ain't a Navy SEAL until you tasted Italian steel..."
-Tom
I've seen that first hand. That's why I will never own a M9.
The SEALs shot Berettas for about 8 yrs (79 - 87) before it happened. Things that make ya go hmmmm?
All pistol slides will crack if you shoot them enough. The Beretta design makes it more interesting when they do crack. If you don't notice the initial crack and keep going, you will generate the nifty pic that started out this thread. The enlarged hammer pivot pin and slide mod keeps anybody from being injured when catastrophe strikes.
It happens. It's happened to very few pistols, most at very high round counts (75K on avg), well in excess of any previous (5K for the M9) or proposed (25K for the latest MHS) pistol service life requirements. If you want more, ask for more. If you ask for less, don't complain when you get more.
So, I still think this just isn't as bad as it's cracked up to be! :jester:
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