View Full Version : Looking to buy 1st AR
I am looking to buy my 1st AR-15 rifle, I have a budget of around 1,000 dollars as my budget with a small reserve for extras.
I am looking for advise on a good rifle within that price range.
I have been looking at the S&W M&P 15 optics ready and the MOE version of the rifle.
I have also been looking at some of Rock River Armory's selection and Stag Arms, and some of Bushmasters and Armlite's rifles.
I have a few preferences for the weapon.
1) 6 position collapsible Stock
2) Flat top receiver with picatinnay rails
3) I would prefer a railed gas block with rails but am willing to buy this after and replace front post sight.
4) Flip up Sights desired but not essential.
Also does anyone know where I could purchase H&K 416 style Diopter sights for less than that 200 dollar Centurion C4 sight
I am looking for weapon that I can use to shoot varmints like coyotes and possible feral pigs while hunting and act as a SHTF weapon.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
PS I am using my tax return to buy a weapon because I feel that Obama would hate me for doing this, especially for a second time.:D
Find ManBearPig!
03-26-11, 13:23
Oh boy...
This thread is going to go downhill very quickly. However, I will assist you.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Mid-16-AR15-Bravo-Company-s/142.htm
Most of the other members on the board will echo this.
bsmith_shoot
03-26-11, 13:29
BCM(blemished lower) and Spikes Tactical for under 1K, save up to 1200, and DD, LMT.
Start with a BCM Blemished lower - best deal running for a reliable assembled lower.
Otherwise, pick up a PalmettoState bargain stripped lower and fill it with a DanielDefense/MOE lower parts kit.
For the upper - the DanielDefense V5 upper, the BCM Middy units, or Spike's M4LE.
Any of those will work - then it's time to think about adding a tactical flashlight (doesn't need to be anything more than a Surefire G2 on a ring/VTAC light mount), and an optic.
Belmont31R
03-26-11, 14:11
Read the stickies and find out what each brand brings to the table. For the same price or slightly more than a Bushmaster or Rock River you can get a gun built properly with all the proper testing and quality features. BM and RR are not making guns up to proper specs.
And regarding the railed gas block....why? You want your flip up front sight sitting on a part that gets heated to several hundred degrees when shooting?
Read the stickies and find out what each brand brings to the table. For the same price or slightly more than a Bushmaster or Rock River you can get a gun built properly with all the proper testing and quality features. BM and RR are not making guns up to proper specs.
And regarding the railed gas block....why? You want your flip up front sight sitting on a part that gets heated to several hundred degrees when shooting?
By the railed gas block, I meant that I didn't want a fixed front sight. I intended to mount an optic and didn't want a front post sight in the middle of my sight picture.
By the railed gas block, I meant that I didn't want a fixed front sight. I intended to mount an optic and didn't want a front post sight in the middle of my sight picture.
It doesn't interfere with sight picture.
Sometimes the front sight in front of the scope is annoying, sometimes it isn't. Depends on the setup and the individual. You have to shoot the combo for yourself to decide.
Insertjjs, listen to those suggesting BCM. When better quality is available for about the same price, the choice is obvious
I think you should spend some more time reading. What you want is feasible, but I think it will run more than 1000.00.
Also your priorities on it's intended use are wrong. The first priority should be for a weapon that can be used for self-defense (SHTF) and then hunting.
If you don't want a fixed FSB then you could get a good upper, have someone cut the FSB so you can install a rail over it and then add your front flip sight.
I highly encourage you to have front and rear back up sights.
I use a Bushmaster at work as my duty patrol rifle. For about the same price you can get a BCM our a basic Daniel Defense which are better rifles in every way. Trust me on this.
And incase you think I'm just being a fanboy. I dont own either of those two rifles.
NeoNeanderthal
03-26-11, 16:41
WHATEVER you do. Do NOT get a bushmaster, stag or rock river arms. You can get a BCM or Spikes or maybe a Daniel Defense for the same price! Others with way more experience then me will echo this, not sure about s&w though i know there are better rifles out there.
kaltesherz
03-26-11, 16:49
By the railed gas block, I meant that I didn't want a fixed front sight. I intended to mount an optic and didn't want a front post sight in the middle of my sight picture.
Then why do you want to know where to buy HK style diopter sights? Those are fixed.
Spend the rest of your weekend using the search function and just browsing through the entire forum, but esp general discussion. You'll be 100x wiser and will never ever consider RRA, Shrubmaster, or Armalite ever again.
Those HK Diopter sights are garbage too. You be much better served with normal sights. My I ask why you want the Diopters and have you ever used then?
Moose-Knuckle
03-26-11, 18:34
I just helped a buddy purchase his first AR. We found him a DDM4XV for $999 shipped, got it in three days.
http://www.smartgunner.com/Daniel-Defense-M4-Carbine-XV.aspx
Silver_2325
03-26-11, 19:51
1) Buy a BCM
2) Thank everyone here for changing your mind
3) ?????
4) Profit
You can hunt with an AR but I wouldn't call a carbine "ideal." Just like I wouldn't call an SPR ideal for what you would normally use a carbine for. Both are functionally similar and able to be used for both purposes, but each is better suited for their intended application.
Don't expect one rifle to do all things well.
1) Buy a BCM
2) Thank everyone here for changing your mind
3) ?????
4) Profit
WoW reference FTW.
I also suggest going for a BCM, LMT, Colt, or DD AR over a S&W or the like - the cost increase is not much, but the returns are overwhelming.
The OP would be best served by exercising a little patience and spending a good solid week or two researching.
OP: From my experience the S&W Optics Ready only seems to be compatible with Troy sights. This will add $200 to your initial purchase. There are no savings on the "optics ready" guns from any mfg. It's just a way for them to make up margins by not offering sights.
If you want a S&W buy one that comes with sights, as it will be way cheaper in the long run. The base model with a Troy rear and regular FSP woud be my choice.
This thread kinda reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evr_tP9cJWY
The OP will find that BCM and DD have offerings that will fit his requirements from the factory.
Nightvisionary
03-27-11, 08:43
I would go with a Spike Tactical LE Mid Length. You won't be sorry. Mine has been rock solid reliable for thousands of rounds. You will even have a few bucks left over for ammo or to squirrel away for optics.
http://i54.tinypic.com/vo8syb.jpg
I would add the "extras" budget that the OP mentioned, to the $1000 carbine budget and get a Colt 6920. Then I'd shoot it awhile and get familiar with the platform before deciding on what extras are desired.
jklaughrey
03-27-11, 09:06
I would go with a Spike Tactical LE Mid Length. You won't be sorry. Mine has been rock solid reliable for thousands of rounds. You will even have a few bucks left over for ammo or to squirrel away for optics.
http://i54.tinypic.com/vo8syb.jpg
Can you quantify this statement. Thousands...of rounds? What time frame, what type of use and stress has been placed upon the weapon. I would think 2k used during a 3 day training course would trump 4K just bench shooting hitting paper. Please explain why you state reliable for thousands of rounds. Would like to know so the OP can make an informed decision based on objective data, not your personal opinion.
Save your money and buy a reputable make. BCM, Noveske, DD. There is absolutely NO reason not too.
Thanks for the advice.
For those telling me to spend my time researching my purchase, this was were I was starting. Looking for recommendations on which brands to examine closer and which to avoid.
I had wished to avoid the front post sight after shooting a friend of a friend's SOG armory M4 with an ACOG and had found the front sight slightly distracting.
And as for the Diopter sights, I was interested after shooting a friends H&K91 and had liked the H&K's sights.
The additional money that I had mentioned was for the purchase of extra magazines, sling and a M68 CCO that a friend was willing to sell me cheap since he some how managed to keep it after his discharge from the Army and he does not own a rifle.
At this point I believe that I'll look at your suggestions from bravo company, Spike and Danials Defence. I will probably also take a drive out to the local Cabelas and to Cheaper than Dirt's store here in Fort Worth. And Talk to a coworker who also works as a gunsmith.
Or maybe I'll just save some more and buy the Springfield M1A that I have wanted instead.
kaltesherz
03-27-11, 16:15
He might have been told by someone to keep it, but it's still Government property and therefor STOLEN. It's considered SI, Sensitive Item, the same as a weapon, night vision, or laser. It has a serial number, so no matter what your friend says it's still a no-go.
ETA: There is very little clutter from a front sight post on an ACOG with the magnification. Hell, even with a 203 leaf sight up my sight picture was uncluttered. I like HK diopter sights too but they're FIXED, so I don't get why you say you don't want fixed sights then ask where you can find fixed sights cheaper...
How about this. Take the advice given to you and buy a basic carbine like a Colt 6920, DD or BCM. The other thing you need to do is figure out why you want it.
Once you have some more exposure with it, then you can look at what other options you want.
Remember before the world of optics, lights and other gizmos there was just the standard carbine/ rifle.
I am sure we can debate this point all do day long.
Thanks for the advice.
For those telling me to spend my time researching my purchase, this was were I was starting. Looking for recommendations on which brands to examine closer and which to avoid.
I had wished to avoid the front post sight after shooting a friend of a friend's SOG armory M4 with an ACOG and had found the front sight slightly distracting.
And as for the Diopter sights, I was interested after shooting a friends H&K91 and had liked the H&K's sights.
The additional money that I had mentioned was for the purchase of extra magazines, sling and a M68 CCO that a friend was willing to sell me cheap since he some how managed to keep it after his discharge from the Army and he does not own a rifle.
At this point I believe that I'll look at your suggestions from bravo company, Spike and Danials Defence. I will probably also take a drive out to the local Cabelas and to Cheaper than Dirt's store here in Fort Worth. And Talk to a coworker who also works as a gunsmith.
Or maybe I'll just save some more and buy the Springfield M1A that I have wanted instead.
Nightvisionary
03-27-11, 17:41
Can you quantify this statement. Thousands...of rounds? What time frame, what type of use and stress has been placed upon the weapon. I would think 2k used during a 3 day training course would trump 4K just bench shooting hitting paper. Please explain why you state reliable for thousands of rounds. Would like to know so the OP can make an informed decision based on objective data, not your personal opinion.
What carbine courses go through 2k rounds in 3 days. That sounds less like training and more like a spray and pray plink fest. Even Tiger swans 5 day LE/MIL course only requires 1750 rounds.
To answer your question around 3.5K through my Spikes mid legnth since November. Shooting has been through several practical rifle competitions, 300 and 600 yard competitions, 1 2 day training course, and about 500 rounds in one day through the upper while mounted on buddy's registered select fire lower.
I have fired my own reloads, Wolf, XM193, Remington, HSM, and Winchester white box through USGI 20 and 30 round mags and Magpul mags without a hitch. It use Mobil synthetic for lube and the Spikes gun runs like clockwork no matter what I feed it.
jklaughrey
03-27-11, 18:26
What carbine courses go through 2k rounds in 3 days. That sounds less like training and more like a spray and pray plink fest. Even Tiger swans 5 day LE/MIL course only requires 1750 rounds.
To answer your question around 3.5K through my Spikes mid legnth since November. Shooting has been through several practical rifle competitions, 300 and 600 yard competitions, 1 2 day training course, and about 500 rounds in one day through the upper while mounted on buddy's registered select fire lower.
I have fired my own reloads, Wolf, XM193, Remington, HSM, and Winchester white box through USGI 20 and 30 round mags and Magpul mags without a hitch. It use Mobil synthetic for lube and the Spikes gun runs like clockwork no matter what I feed it.
How do you like the HSM? I have ran a few boxes. Seems to be pretty good IMO. As far as 2k for 3 days there are classes that you go through that many rounds. When my dept. SRT does qtr. quals we go through that much give or take a few 100 in a 2-3 day period just for primary. About a 1/3 of that for secondary, and even less for shotgun. But every class or training exercise is different and may focus on a different application.
Like an old MGySgt said to me. Run it like you hate it.
Nightvisionary
03-27-11, 19:28
How do you like the HSM? I have ran a few boxes. Seems to be pretty good IMO. As far as 2k for 3 days there are classes that you go through that many rounds. When my dept. SRT does qtr. quals we go through that much give or take a few 100 in a 2-3 day period just for primary. About a 1/3 of that for secondary, and even less for shotgun. But every class or training exercise is different and may focus on a different application.
Like an old MGySgt said to me. Run it like you hate it.
I had a couple hundred rounds of HSM 52 grain TNT left over from a Prairie Dog hunting trip I went on some years back. It worked great through my Savage 12FV with .5 MOA about standard through that rifle with a B&L 300 5x15. I eventually sold the Savage and tried several times to feed the HSM through a Bushmaster and an Armalite AR. It would not feed worth a damn through those rifles due to the open tip but neither one had M-4 feed ramps so the Spikes doesn't mind it at all.
As far as quality the HSM stuff I shot was top notch. Accurate and I don't ever recall any case, hangfire or primer issues.
jklaughrey
03-27-11, 19:55
I had a couple hundred rounds of HSM 52 grain TNT left over from a Prairie Dog hunting trip I went on some years back. It worked great through my Savage 12FV with .5 MOA about standard through that rifle with a B&L 300 5x15. I eventually sold the Savage and tried several times to feed the HSM through a Bushmaster and an Armalite AR. It would not feed worth a damn through those rifles due to the open tip but neither one had M-4 feed ramps so the Spikes doesn't mind it at all.
As far as quality the HSM stuff I shot was top notch. Accurate and I don't ever recall any case, hangfire or primer issues.
I have ran a few more rounds of HSM last week. Also spoke with one of their vendors who was at a gun show recently and had a sampling of their CQB 25gr round. It looked interesting but I am pretty leery of new fangled shit. Here is the link.
http://store.thehuntingshack.com/hsm55625grclosequartersentryandhomedefense.aspx
I think you should spend some more time reading. What you want is feasible, but I think it will run more than 1000.00.
Also your priorities on it's intended use are wrong. The first priority should be for a weapon that can be used for self-defense (SHTF) and then hunting.
Exactly right.
While M4 regulars may see these threads all the time, I imagine that it must be overwhelming for a new person.
The temptation is to just buy something and get it over with. This is the wrong thing to do. I would suggest buying something decent like a Colt/BCM/Daniel Defence/LMT even if you have to wait six months or a year before you can afford a quality red dot optic.
I'm in the same position with the budget and buying my first AR. This thread has strayed me away from considering a STAG. Thanks for all the information! But the only problem is I'm in NY, and looking at this BCM, they don't ship to NY?!
I would get an upper of your choice and then find a different stripped lower (Noveske, Daniel Defense, Armalite or even dare I say, Bushmaster) use a good LPK and buttstock assembly and you are golden.
Or you can contact Grant at GandRtactical and see what he can do.
I'm in the same position with the budget and buying my first AR. This thread has strayed me away from considering a STAG. Thanks for all the information! But the only problem is I'm in NY, and looking at this BCM, they don't ship to NY?!
Smuckatelli
03-27-11, 23:38
How about this. Take the advice given to you and buy a basic carbine like a Colt 6920, DD or BCM. The other thing you need to do is figure out why you want it.
Once you have some more exposure with it, then you can look at what other options you want.
Remember before the world of optics, lights and other gizmos there was just the standard carbine/ rifle.
I am sure we can debate this point all do day long.
It took me 2 years to finally change the basic configuration of my 6920. It felt like as though I was walking into a porn shop with my church friends looking while I asked Rob for a handguard that was free floating and didn't require the barrel to be taken off.
Get to know the rifle first, worry about the furniture after you feel comfortable with the rifle.
I would get an upper of your choice and then find a different stripped lower (Noveske, Daniel Defense, Armalite or even dare I say, Bushmaster) use a good LPK and buttstock assembly and you are golden.
Or you can contact Grant at GandRtactical and see what he can do.
Thanks for the advice, my plans changed a handful of times within the past month. As I sit right now, BCM upper, with stripped Noveske and DPMS lower parts, BCM or LMT bolt carrier group, and of course the NY state compliant non-collapsable butt stock.
Now why would you want to go messing up a nice setup with a DPMS LPK...
I highly encourage you to get a GandR lower kit, DD or LMT.
Thanks for the advice, my plans changed a handful of times within the past month. As I sit right now, BCM upper, with stripped Noveske and DPMS lower parts, BCM or LMT bolt carrier group, and of course the NY state compliant non-collapsable butt stock.
kaltesherz
03-28-11, 01:32
I highly encourage you to get a GandR lower kit, DD or LMT.
Seriously. You were doing so well until the DPMS LPK...
Like i said, i'm a noob, go easy on me! Still more research to be done
NeoNeanderthal
03-28-11, 09:16
Personally i would not even get a bushmaster lower. I know it would work just as fine as any other but i would rather not support a company that does silly things (staking?) with their weapons and then tries to sell them to people in harms way. This is criminal in my opinion. The less bushy/rra/dpms stuff we buy (regardless of how well or poorly it works) the more likely they are to go out of business.
If someone gave me a Stripped bushy lower i'm not saying i wouldnt take it for free. But when you have the choice. Id pay even 10-20-30-40 even 50 dollers more for a no name small company lower, BCM blem, or DD.
Just something else to think about besides purely function. As if you didn't already have a bunch of stuff to learn and worry about!
I live in maine and would have loved to support a maine company like bushmaster, but choose not to for obvious reasons. I did hear that they did just close their maine manufacturing plant. Maybe people are catching on that their price does not equal their quality and that is hurting their profit. Who knows..
All im saying is if you have a choice, might as well choose wisely. Support a ethical company or get a lower that matches your upper.
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