Objectivity and the....(sigh) HK 416 [Archive]

View Full Version : Objectivity and the....(sigh) HK 416

pointblank4445

03-26-11, 13:22

First let me state that I ask this of my free-will and own accord knowing damn well that any piston or HK thread goes over like a lead balloon. I also would like to state the following:

- I don't care to hear about your LWRC or piston conversion, this is 416 specific

- I don't give a damn how much HK "hates you because you suck." A company can rollmark "Eat shit, end user" on the mag well so long as the rifle does its job reliably, i'll give it a look.

That said here is my question: While the 416 isn't loved and is not problem-free, has any respected industry professional publicly advised against this system? Something like Larry Vickers' post about HK mags in 2007 basically stating: "I have alot of experience with HK M16 mags and can no longer recommend them due to some issues the current version has".

I know i've seen pics of LAV running one as well as a pic of Costa shooting with a 416 from a vehicle in Oct of 2010. I'm sure some will make an argument for the price factor involved for non-issued users, but are there any screaming "NO!" like what was said about the HK mags? I ask this not to copy what the pro's are doing. I ask this because these guys usually don't bullshit on what does and doesn't work.

Striker

03-26-11, 14:33

There was a thread awhile back on piston ARs and the Hk came up. As I recall, there were one or two guys that posted that had actual hands on experience with it. If memory serves me correctly, I think they said it was holding up fine in the sandbox, though you might want to search for it and read it for yourself. I think what most here have said is that it's heavy, expensive and, while it works just fine, it isn't the wonder gun some were making it out to be.

I don't have hands on experience with it, so that's the best I can offer. Personally, I'm fine with a piston AR as long as it's durable, reliable and accurate. It's the same standard for every tool.

pointblank4445

03-26-11, 15:02

MistWolf

03-26-11, 15:09

My question is why the HK? The piston design adds complexity, weight and cost to perform the same function. If the HK offers the same performance, what is the advantage? IBTL

Striker

03-26-11, 16:52

This one?:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75117

I know the piston is not popular here (and with good cause in most cases), but most here are also in tune with what the pro's find out.

Yeah, I think that's the one. When I read those, I look for people who've had direct experience with the weapon or, in some cases, were in theater with guys using it/them. Direct knowledge is what I was looking for.

Again, I don't have any direct experience with the 416, so like you, I'm just reading what others are saying about it. Pistons are fine for me, but they have had their problems. And again, for me, the standard for any tool is the same, it has to work. And when I hear someone say something like carrier tilt isn't a problem, I think they're fooling themselves. Of course it's a problem. I say if you want a 416 or MR556, get it. All reports are that they're fine. I personally though am not sure what I get for $4000.00 that I won't get from a Centurion Arms build or get from a Noveske rifle that costs me around $1500.00 That's more my dilemma. Love to see pics if you get it though.

GlockWRX

03-26-11, 17:09

There are some pretty serious people that use the HK416. They could have anything they want and they go for the 416. That says something. But remember they also use it full auto with suppressors at high round counts. That's an application that really tears up a DI SBR. The 416 was made for this, literally.

But there are a couple of serious issues with the MR556 or MR223 as offered by HK in the US: the stupid magwell and the stupid barrel.

The magwell requires you to use Emags, GI mags or the HK mags. This isn't the end of the world, but it's a major issue. Already the USMC has stopped allowing Marine units to buy Pmags for use in the M16A4 because they are incompatible with the IAR. It's unknown if they will get to buy Emags or get stuck with GI mags. So HKs magwell has kept the USMC from upgrading to a superior magazine. Awesome. :rolleyes:

The current barrel as offered by HK is super heavy and non-chrome lined. That's weak sauce IMO. At least treat it with Melonite or something similar.

The HK416 system is a very solid setup especially for an SBR, but only if you can get an HK416 upper with a proper barrel and put it on a lower with a proper magwell. I wouldn't touch the current MR556 with a ten foot pole. But if I could legally have a SBR, I would look hard at a 10.5 inch HK416 upper. Otherwise, I'll stick with DI.

interfan

03-26-11, 18:28

But there are a couple of serious issues with the MR556 or MR223 as offered by HK in the US: the stupid magwell and the stupid barrel.

The magwell requires you to use Emags, GI mags or the HK mags. This isn't the end of the world, but it's a major issue. Already the USMC has stopped allowing Marine units to buy Pmags for use in the M16A4 because they are incompatible with the IAR. It's unknown if they will get to buy Emags or get stuck with GI mags. So HKs magwell has kept HK from upgrading to a superior magazine. Awesome. :rolleyes:

A friend of mine has a MR223 that takes standard Pmags with no issues. I haven't seen the US version, except on the HK stand at SHOT, so I don't know if this is an issue with it.

I have a 416 upper on a Colt (Colt Canada) lower. It isn't a SBR and hasn't been used suppressed, but it is very heavy and has been very reliable. Even after a 20m overnight bath in the Med (don't ask, I'm a dumbass), it is still reliable and functions well. Having said that, I got the upper very cheap, so if I had to pay near retail, I would pass. Did I mention that it is heavy? I am using Pmags with it, but that is with a standard lower.

I think that LAV's comments were more towards the HK mags. The mags are also very heavy but really nothing special. They are "high reliability" compared to GI mags with the old black followers, but not really any more reliable than the current GI mags and certainly no more reliable than Pmags/Emags or anti-tilt follower mags. IIRC, the HK mag was a fix for the reliability problems with the Brit's trainwreck SA80, not the M4. I can't speak for LAV specific opinions, but know his experience makes his words very influential.

I am too old, too rich and too good looking to go into combat now, but I can relate what I know from some work my company does with Italy's Navy COMSUBIN (Italian version of US Navy special warfare), who adopted the 416 for a while, is that they prefer the C8 (Colt Canada M4) due to weight. The 416 is used only for marine operations in a 10.5" barrel version, usually with a supressor. I have also spoken to some soldiers who are Danes, Norwegians, and Dutch (who have all adopted the 416 in a broad issue) and all have complained about the parts interchange and weight of the 416 that they use with the 14.5 or 16.5 inch barrels.

TOrrock

03-26-11, 19:01

Dano posted a list of negatives and drawbacks that he's observed first hand with the HK416 as issued.

I haven't heard of any of the usual highly respected SME's publicly waving off of the HK416 the way they have the HK416 "maritime" magazines.

The SOT I consult for has a post 86 dealer sample HK416 10.5".

It's an all factory select fire HK assault rifle, and I've had a fair amount of trigger time behind it, as well as other 10.5" HK416 uppers on semi auto lowers.

Personally, as a civilian user, the cost-benefit analysis really says to bypass the HK. I honestly think most civilian SBR end users would be better served with a factory SBR from Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, or Noveske.

As previously stated, the cost and availability of proprietary HK parts, the excess weight, and the cost to get into one are the real negatives against it.

Now, if dropping several thousand dollars for a HK416 upper won't put a dent in your wallet, and you want one, then brother, drive on and get one, but I honestly think a Colt 6933 would better serve most people.

Here's member Subzero getting some trigger time on our HK416 at our annual New Years machine gun shoot.

Very little muzzle rise..... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kqXCdiw_9c)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Album%202/New%20Years%20Eve%2012-31-10/P1050077.jpg

RAM Engineer

03-26-11, 19:39

Obviously everyone's grey market exchange rate is slightly different, but in my neck of the woods, I could buy 2 COMPLETE 6933 SBRs for the price of a single, 10", NIB, HK416 Upper kit.

Iraqgunz

03-26-11, 22:32

I believe that only 2 MARDIV has instituted the PMAG ban. It is also unknown as to why they did so.

AFAIK the IAR isn't fully in the pipeline or in use. Do you know from a reliable source as to why the PMAG issue came about?

There are some pretty serious people that use the HK416. They could have anything they want and they go for the 416. That says something. But remember they also use it full auto with suppressors at high round counts. That's an application that really tears up a DI SBR. The 416 was made for this, literally.

But there are a couple of serious issues with the MR556 or MR223 as offered by HK in the US: the stupid magwell and the stupid barrel.

The magwell requires you to use Emags, GI mags or the HK mags. This isn't the end of the world, but it's a major issue. Already the USMC has stopped allowing Marine units to buy Pmags for use in the M16A4 because they are incompatible with the IAR. It's unknown if they will get to buy Emags or get stuck with GI mags. So HKs magwell has kept HK from upgrading to a superior magazine. Awesome. :rolleyes:

The current barrel as offered by HK is super heavy and non-chrome lined. That's weak sauce IMO. At least treat it with Melonite or something similar.

The HK416 system is a very solid setup especially for an SBR, but only if you can get an HK416 upper with a proper barrel and put it on a lower with a proper magwell. I wouldn't touch the current MR556 with a ten foot pole. But if I could legally have a SBR, I would look hard at a 10.5 inch HK416 upper. Otherwise, I'll stick with DI.

LowSpeed_HighDrag

03-27-11, 01:13

I believe that only 2 MARDIV has instituted the PMAG ban. It is also unknown as to why they did so.

AFAIK the IAR isn't fully in the pipeline or in use. Do you know from a reliable source as to why the PMAG issue came about?

This isnt the true cause, but there is a serious misunderstanding of PMAGs in the military. Many officers and SNCOs treat them as lesser quality items, and many have asked me to use GI mags. I remember being on the range last year and being told I would recieve no alibi's if I continued to use those plastic magazines.

Eurodriver

03-27-11, 01:33

I believe that only 2 MARDIV has instituted the PMAG ban. It is also unknown as to why they did so.

AFAIK the IAR isn't fully in the pipeline or in use. Do you know from a reliable source as to why the PMAG issue came about?

It sure is. 3rd Marines in Hawaii is deploying them to OEF as we speak, I have seen this firsthand. 1/3 was the first unit to use them at Mojave Viper and they will be/are the first to use it in Afghanistan.

As far as them using PMAGs....well...3rd Marines is one of the biggest supporters of PMAG use in the Corps. Not sure how they're working the IAR/PMAG "dilemma". Ill ask them on Monday.

From what I've seen and heard, the IAR isn't really a huge improvement. SAW gunners like it merely because they don't have to carry a SAW, its alot less weight and they're no longer a target. Most of us know that 90% of SAW gunners in the Corps are not "high speed low drag operators", they are boots. Usually the dumb, demotivated ones at that. That may be why the SAW gets such a bad wrap in the first place. I'm not so sure if I was in a line company without the availability of crew serves for whatever reason I would be cool with having just a 30 round, magazine fed "light machine gun". After 1/3 returns they will be giving AARs to HQMC about the IAR. This may just be the "old corps" talking, but I can't really see them giving very favorable AARs after spending 7 months in helmand without belt fed weapons at the squad level.

Sure, the SAW jams sometimes, and when it jams its a bit difficult to clear but in a FPF situation you have 200 rounds of ammo you can dispense at the cyclic rate. A quick reload and barrel change, maybe a squirt of CLP and you have another 200 down the pipe. Rinse and repeat all day long. What happens when you are getting overrun with the IAR? Who has all the extra mags?

Sorry, this turned into a bit of a rant. I'm just not a fan of the IAR replacing the SAW. It should be used with the SAW

colombianito1021

03-27-11, 01:38

This isnt the true cause, but there is a serious misunderstanding of PMAGs in the military. Many officers and SNCOs treat them as lesser quality items, and many have asked me to use GI mags. I remember being on the range last year and being told I would recieve no alibi's if I continued to use those plastic magazines.

That sucks. In my company we actually each got combat load supply of pmags and then some. We also got a shit load of self leveling GI mags. We also got the conversion to turn GI mags in to self leveling GI mags.

I've personally have seen the dark ones in theater using 416 and 417s. H&K must be doing something right....

Iraqgunz

03-27-11, 04:51

I saw the info posted over at SOCNET, although no one seemed to be able to explain exactly why. The whole IAR issue was just a guess.

I find it hard to believe that there are still idiots out there debating their merits considering who and how many I have seen being used in Iraq and A'stan.

This isnt the true cause, but there is a serious misunderstanding of PMAGs in the military. Many officers and SNCOs treat them as lesser quality items, and many have asked me to use GI mags. I remember being on the range last year and being told I would recieve no alibi's if I continued to use those plastic magazines.

Silvanus

03-27-11, 08:47

pointblank4445

03-27-11, 09:13

FWIW the Luxembourg national "SWAT" unit uses the H&K 416 & 417. From what I hear they like it.

http://i60.servimg.com/u/f60/11/50/35/28/hk41610.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=382&u=11503528)

Doesn´t the Norvegian Army use the 416 as a standard rifle? They should have quite some experience with them by now... How do they like them?

I read one account from a Norwegian soldier talking about their 416 vs. their old issue G3's. The soldier liked the fact that cleaning the 416 took about 1/4 of the time that it took to clean a G3. He was also questioned about the rumor of failures at extremely low temperatures. IIRC, he stated that some issues were encountered at colder temps, but were no more frequent if not less frequent than with their G3. His biggest concern was not of the rifle platforms, but of the switch from 7.62 to 5.56.......which is nothing that any of us haven't heard from the 60's when we went to the M16.

JasonM

03-27-11, 10:32

pointblank4445

03-27-11, 11:18

From personal experience, we have had much more frequent bolt breakage on our 416's than on any of our DI guns. Admittedly, our guns are run much harder than most guns- auto, suppressed mostly.

They also are very front heavy, loud suppressed, and i find the rail very big and clunky.

Broken bolts as in separation/breakage at the cam pin hole or sheared lugs? I posed this unanswered question on the thread linked above: what factor (if any) does a suppressor play on AR15/416 bolt breakages?

montrala

03-27-11, 16:06

HK416 has very good record here in Poland. GROM selected HK for combat units some years ago (support units got KAC, Bushmasters where given away). Now also 1.PSK uses HK416 (14.5" and 16.5"). Both units use them in sandbox. No problems reported.

Best known issue is whith bad design of adjustable gas block for Norwegian contract (requested by Norwegian Army, who do not believe in "self regulating"). HK corrected system. So called "freeze problem" was ballooned by one soldier who knew how to use internet, but apparently did sleep when they trained them that in Arctic you do not bring firearm from freeze to warm indoors, let it collect all humidity from air and them move it back to -30C. Every rifle will freeze in this situation, making chambering round quite hard (but in AK you can at least kick or jump on charging handle).

HK416/MR223/MR556 do not use P-Mag, because they were designed to use magazines that fulfil specification on STANAG magazine. Unfortunately P-Mag is not STANAG compliant magazine. Other weapon systems that use STANAG magazine (like SA80, FAMAS, F2000, etc.) also can not use P-Mag. This can be issue when operating along allied forces that use STANAG magazines but can not take P-Mag. E-mag solves this problem.

Ed L.

03-27-11, 19:32

Regarding Pmags, I once had an LMY lower that would not drop them free when they were empty. DOes that mean LMT sucks? I think not. I think a top grade DI gun (Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, etc) is fine for the average user.

If the HK416 was anywhere near as problem plagued as some people claim, it would never have been adopted or kept in continued use by the most elite military unit in the US, for whom it was originally developed. Nor would it have seen the sucesss that it has with adoption by other elite units.

To quote a few SME's from here on the HK416:

Some recent military shooting demonstrated that the HK416 exhibited substantially greater reliability and 3-4 times the durability of a Colt M4, with significantly less need for maintenance.

HK416

-The bolt & barrel seem to last several fold over the DI CQBR of whatever manufacturer.

and:

The HK416 is a much cheaper weapons system when one considers the lifecycle cost on a high rd ct training (aka a training/demonstrator) weapon.

With the same rd ct, you will go through several M4A1 uppers before a 416 upper is wornout.

If your doing night centric operations, it's kinda nice to have a laser mounted on a rail that doesn't move/shift zero.

I have seen over 8K rds through a 416 w/o cleaning, w/o indicator of probs/sluggishness. This allows alot more time that could be spent on the primary function of instructing/teaching/mentoring/briefing/etc.

But in this case, yes. Military units with the latitude to test and choose literally any system...M4, Sig 55X, AK, WHATEVER....spent millions of dollars to determine that this was the best rifle. No lowest bidder that meets the standard, no Congressman trying to get dollars to his district, just simple performance at any cost. This gun (the 416) won. It was truly the best.

4) A Colt 6920 is a very good gun ( I used one for a long time while instructing) and is just fine for most civilian and LE users - just keep it lubed

5) I recommend a piston AR for the following;

a) barrel length less than 14.5 inches
b) extensive full auto fire
c) wide variety of ammo being used
d) suppressed use

6) I hope the HK416 & 417 will be available to civilians and individual LE officers someday - I have campaigned tirelessly for this since the 416 was introduced

7) The 416 would be my first choice in a 5.56mm assault rifle if given the option

8) I have seen alot of ammo shot out of a 416 (probably more than anyone in the USA) - and in my experience it is MORE accurate than a DI AR - I have seen a 10 inch 416 shoot minute of angle from a machine rest at the factory after being fired 12,000 rds during a lot acceptance test - I, like others who witnessed it, would never have believed it is I had not seen it myself

9) The spec ops users of the 416 I train and know love the gun except for the weight (it has a fairly heavy barrel under that rail system) - HK is offering a lighter profile barrel as an option now

Titleist

03-27-11, 19:39

I know i've seen pics of LAV running one as well as a pic of Costa shooting with a 416 from a vehicle in Oct of 2010.

FYI I took that pic of costa and that was a students gun, not Chris'

Magsz

03-27-11, 20:21

Here's a question for the guys that do this for a living.

Current civilian shooting trends are leaning more towards lighter, less recoiling, less bulky guns.

Would you trade all of the above for a gun that is harder to shoot, heavier, and bulkier for a perceived operational and durability benefit?

I personally find the 416 difficult to shoot in semi, its an absolute recoil mule for a .223. In auto its actually quite pleasant although my sample size is quite small for rounds down range on a full auto 416.

Heavy Metal

03-27-11, 21:00

The current barrel as offered by HK is super heavy and non-chrome lined. That's weak sauce IMO. At least treat it with Melonite or something similar.

My understanding is the bore is indeed Nitrided.

Mabey Larry can chime in on this as DD is building alot of the US assemblies for the MR223 IIRC.

JSantoro

03-27-11, 23:45

AFAIK the IAR isn't fully in the pipeline or in use. Do you know from a reliable source as to why the PMAG issue came about?

IAR is at the tail end of its initial fielding.

The Corps has gotten snow-jobbed by the Picatinney studies regarding the current-issue tan-follower magazine, which point to them being equal-to/better-than Pmags; Picatinnney's findings have been completely accepted. The NIH (Not Invented Here) factor is in full effect (putting aside the fact that the left-side follower hump is all that's saving them from having outright copied the Magpul follower, so they didn't come up with the concept to begin with...). One of the wonky, tired excuses used is in reference to how the polymer supposedly wouldn't stand up to a CBRN environment.

...putting aside for the moment as to whether or not that is in any way correct (I simply don't know), WHY are those blasted 200rnd drums for SAWs still okay, not to mention ALL of the other polymer-based crap (Pelican cases everywhere to "protect" sensitive/fragile items, for starters) floating around...?

All one can do is sigh heavily and :rolleyes:

Iraqgunz

03-28-11, 01:38

Jimbo,

Are you serious? Please tell me no. CBRN, really? Couldn't they have come up with something more plausible? Like lack of availability during a zombie outbreak or something?

IAR is at the tail end of its initial fielding.

The Corps has gotten snow-jobbed by the Picatinney studies regarding the current-issue tan-follower magazine, which point to them being equal-to/better-than Pmags; Picatinnney's findings have been completely accepted. The NIH (Not Invented Here) factor is in full effect (putting aside the fact that the left-side follower hump is all that's saving them from having outright copied the Magpul follower, so they didn't come up with the concept to begin with...). One of the wonky, tired excuses used is in reference to how the polymer supposedly wouldn't stand up to a CBRN environment.

...putting aside for the moment as to whether or not that is in any way correct (I simply don't know), WHY are those blasted 200rnd drums for SAWs still okay, not to mention ALL of the other polymer-based crap (Pelican cases everywhere to "protect" sensitive/fragile items, for starters) floating around...?

All one can do is sigh heavily and :rolleyes:

variablebinary

03-28-11, 06:17

If the HK416 was anywhere near as problem plagued as some people claim, it would never have been adopted or kept in continued use by the most elite military unit in the US, for whom it was originally developed. Nor would it have seen the sucesss that it has with adoption by other elite units.

No doubt. The 416 has gone on to make a name for itself and become a very successful firearm for HK.

I doubt its adoption is the result of people/units wanting to be unique and beautiful snowflakes.

HK panache only goes so far, so that can't be the only reason.

JasonM

03-28-11, 09:04

Broken bolts as in separation/breakage at the cam pin hole or sheared lugs? I posed this unanswered question on the thread linked above: what factor (if any) does a suppressor play on AR15/416 bolt breakages?

PB- sorry, sheared lugs.

A suppressor generally speeds up the action, increasing stress on the whole system. This (in my experience) leads to more problems on the 416 than on our DI guns.

JSantoro

03-28-11, 09:19

Jimbo,

Are you serious? Please tell me no. CBRN, really? Couldn't they have come up with something more plausible? Like lack of availability during a zombie outbreak or something?

I (we) were at a D&P we had to put on at MCU. From the mouth of a senior SNCO from IW, speaking to attendees of the winter Commanders Course. Smack-dab in the middle of the entryway of the Gray Center (which shoots any BS Brig Lawyer protestations one could bring up as to FOUO or sidebar conversation right in the ass).

Technically plausible? Yes, it certainly is.

Real-world plausible? F**k NO!

There was tons of other Picatinney-spawned nepotistic/careerist/sketchy/outright falsehood stuff, too; the collective weight of it pegged my "WTF?!" Meter and made this happen:

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1203/explodinghead.jpg

My grape is still growing back....

I don't blame the IW guys. They've simply made the mistake of trusting the Pic results instead of engaging in the traditional Corps xenophobia of anything we get from the Army in general, and Picatinney in particular.

warpigM-4

03-28-11, 09:57

JSantoro Good stuff the scanners Picture has me rolling :D

I have only got to Hold a HK 416 so i can't really give any input ,but to me it was heavy .I wish i could of shot it. I saw the Upper on Gun broker Going for around 3500 and about Sharted Myself .I will stick with My Colt
That is all :cool:

hak

03-28-11, 16:13

at a vicker's class last year I got to shoot his 2nd in command's 416 SBR for a few hours (until we figured out how to pull the fore-end of an xm193 shell out of my MSARs' chamber).

for a short session, i was impressed. I picked right up on the drills and did dandy while i got to run it.

I'm just a civilian, but i wanted my own agile piston AR (I have a dpms .308, no hating! great range queen and very accurate) so i'm familiar with cleaning a DI gun and it's not that bad unsuppressed) But, I want suppressed and ammo variety, not full auto nor sbr) so an adjustable gas block was on my list. the lwrc m6a3 was, thusly, on my short list. and the HK. but the lighter weight LWRC SPR looked nice, but no adjustable valve.

I fondled an HK 556 today, and man, it was front heavy. I would be adding at least a weapon light, and light weight foregrip, and the though of more weight out there....

same store had another rifle (not lwrc) in stock that I happened to have my eye on, and after hefting the HK and this one back and forth, I chose differently. the lwrc was on the list on paper, i had other reasons to not want to pick it, which won't be posted here.

So, I'm not an HK hater (I love my P30s, and i'm wearing my P7 now stealthily), and i can afford it - but as a civilian, the 1200+ in savings by not getting the HK556 will go towards the can and its tax stamp for the rifle i did choose, which happens to be lighter, and be top notch based on my first impressions.

It may be right for you, and I enjoyied shooting its LE/mil cousin, and wouldn't be 'embarrassed' to justify a full HK load out on my hip and shoulder to the HK haters :p but objectively, it wasn't the one for me.

Cagemonkey

03-28-11, 17:17

JSantoro, Any word on a high capacity magazine/drum for the IAR?