View Full Version : Running brass THEN STEEL...
Got a question and the start of a good answer.
I have a high quality M4 - one on the left of chart - 5.56 chamber and the works. I have not fired it that much. It did FTFeed a couple of times first out, but I blame that on old GI mags with bad springs (20yrs old...). I fired about 2 months ago and did use some steel and seemed OK.
Yesterday, after firing a about 80 rounds of brass, I loaded up some Brown Bear. It shot GREAT - accuracy was easily as good as the brass, and I was thinking - "geee... do I really need an AK? (have three)". [Think like you are watching football and the knucklehead announcer says that your team's FG kicker hasn't missed a FG in 39 tries]. Then I started getting jams - 3 in about 40-50 rounds. Failures to feed and the case would get gouged by the star chamber. I could remove the mag then flip the round out.
Another poster send me a PM that may make sense. Start clean and run ONLY either brass or steel. Many high quality guns have this issue.
I THOUGHT that as long as I used brass first - I'd be OK.
What say you?
(My son has a Smith. It is not as left of the chart as my gun, but his seems to run like a sacred rabbit no matter what he does. He uses exactly the same ammo, same 20 round mag, and has changed his buffer to a ST).
I mix regularly. So long as you have a 5.56 chamber and a proper extractor setup it'll be fine.
Following steel cased ammo with some brittle 5.56 brass (South African) is the origin of the 'no brass after steel' because the extractor would shear the rim off if any resistance met it.
Because brass expands fully to the chamber, I prefer to run some brass after several hundred rounds of steel. It actually helps clean out some of the built-up gunk. (The first couple rounds of brass ejected will have far more carbon fouling on their exterior than the others).
What kind of mags were you using when you had the FTF's? Also, it isn't unheard of that underpowered round could cause short stroking and the FTF's that you described.
christcorp
03-27-11, 14:15
I run mine similar to Dave. Most times, I will run 100-200 rounds of steel, and then purposely run a mag of PMC bronze through it to help actually clean it out a bit.
You already mentioned that you had some issues with magazines and brass ammo. It's possible that your issues aren't totally ammo related. Also; each rifle is different. Even among the same brand of rifles. I know a lot of people believe that because their rifle is towards the "Left Side" of "THE CHART", that it means it's automatically a "Higher Quality" rifle. Take that with a grain of salt. Also realize that the S&W M&P15's are about one of the most reliable of all guns when it comes to ammo. Rarely if ever does an M&P15 have "Ammo Related" issues. They will shoot just about anything you can feed them. That is one of the main reasons I waited until my M&P15 went on sale. Charts are nice and all, but you can't SHOOT A CHART. You shoot rifles. I wanted one that was dependable and reliable. Not saying that the guns on "The Chart" aren't. The Colts, LMT, BCM, DD, etc... are all excellent rifles. And all worthy of your money. I'm simply saying that where they are on the chart has no bearing whatsoever on how they will perform with ammo.
People have issues with ammo all the time. Most of the time it's even Brass ammo. It's not a Brass vs Steel thing. That is just people who don't understand. It's 1 particular rifle vs 1 particular ammo. Brass and Steel have nothing to do with it. You have to find what ammo YOUR INDIVIDUAL RIFLE likes. I have a high quality pistol that doesn't like Corbon. Won't even chamber it. Does that mean Corbon ammo is garbage? On the contrary. Corbon is excellent ammo. I use it in some of my other weapons. Just this particular weapon and corbon don't get along.
So don't worry WHERE on "THE CHART" your gun is. That means very little overall; and even less when it comes to ammo. Make sure you have quality magazines and try different ammo until you find what your rifle likes, and you like to pay for. Could be Silver Bear or MFS steel case; but it hates brown bear and Tula. Could love PMC bronze and Fiocci, but hates Winchester and SSA. Once you realize that guns and their relationship with ammo is an INDIVIDUAL THING, you'll have half of your problems and headaches eliminated.
I have not had issues with any brass. This happened with a 20 round PMag which my son has used in his Smith. Its a shame, because it really DOES shoot the BB accurately. I was pleasantly surprised.
I will say this. I had to ditch a bunch of L5 mags because they would not reliably lock the BCG - but the same mag was OK in my son't smith. Maybe my gun is picky.
crusader377
03-27-11, 14:53
I regularly mix both and never had a problem. I have a CD M4LE and it has been 100% with every ammo that I've fired through it including wolf, brown bear, and silver bear. IMO I think the criticism of steel ammo is vastly overrated and I think any quality AR with a properly spec 5.56 chamber should have no problem shooting steel mixed with brass.
I regularly mix both brass and steel cased ammo in my LMT and Bravo Co.'s with no issues and little cleaning.
Without more detailed info on the nature of the FTF I can't be of more assistance.
I thought I had read another thread of yours describing a similar failure and strongly encourage you to try some good USGI mags (DSG has some good deals on them) or rebuild the ones you have with new springs and Magpul followers or try 30rnd PMags. If the issue persists contact the rifle manufacturer.
Be sure to take a camera and note pad along on your next range outing. Try the new mags and if the problem continues take plenty of pics of the malfunction and make notes right then that you can send to the manufacturer.
This happened with the one new PMag which my son also has used with the same case of BB in his Smith. I have closely examined the mag - looks fine and compares favorably with the other Pmags - like I said - they are new. Also, while I don't have picks I think the round nosed up, and received a good gouge from the star chamber.
Thanks.
this probably isn't a chamber issue, it's probably a gas pressure issue. if the weapon is just barely cycling hard enough to grab the rim of the case, it's not going to have enough momentum to ride the round all the way into battery, but may get hung up in the barrel extension.
this COULD be caused/contributed to by a sticky chamber- requiring more effort to extract and slowing down the action enough to cause the same end result, but i think it's probably more likely that your gun just doesn't like under-powered ammo.
try scrubbing out the chamber good, making sure to dry it, and firing a few mags of just steel. if you have no problems, throw some brass in the mix, and experiment in general.
When you say "star chamber" are you talking about the barrel extension, that is, the part the bolt locks into?
Yes - barrel extension. I'll try more cleaning and run some more. I went with BB because I read here that it was loaded a bit hotter and more consistent than Wolf and others. Again, it shot VERY well in terms of accuracy. Sticky chamber makes sense. I'll try again.
Just wanted to get some more experienced opinions before I bother the manufacturer...
Thanks gents.
What kind of buffer is in your gun?
Dirtyboy333
03-28-11, 15:25
I regularly mix both and never had a problem. I have a CD M4LE and it has been 100% with every ammo that I've fired through it including wolf, brown bear, and silver bear. IMO I think the criticism of steel ammo is vastly overrated and I think any quality AR with a properly spec 5.56 chamber should have no problem shooting steel mixed with brass.
I agree. I regularly do the same with my cheap ass Doublestar and it has been flawless when mixing steel and brass. I haven't tried it yet in my DD but I'm not worried about it.
I usually buy Fed. 100rd bulk packs along with crap Tula at walmart because it's by far the cheapest I can find. I even tried Tula with an H3 buffer when I was experimenting and it still functioned right but just to be safe I use a H2. I think it's fair to say I'm overgassed. :p
My buffer just says "H".
As I said - using the same 20 round Magpul mag as my son does in his Smith.
One thing you need to remember is this the gas port on that Smith is much larger than yours. That it why it will run with just about anything. It also the reason why it will be overgassed.
Have you tried anything else other than Brown Bear? Have you tried any good 5.56 or .223.
My buffer just says "H".
As I said - using the same 20 round Magpul mag as my son does in his Smith.
Yes - I've fired federal, PMC, various kinds, mostly 55 grains. Some SS109, and some Wallymart Fed.
I'll try again with a very clean chamber.
Its just that plenty of guys seem to shoot steel well from a variety of platforms - I also hope too, especially because it did shoot the BB accurately.
Maybe I'll take my sons old Smith buffer with me. He runs a Spikes in his smith now.
Thanks for the questions and comments - what I was looking for before contemplating other options. Also, she might need a bit more brake in!
FWIW, I've run hundreds of mixed rounds - brass M193 and steel-cased Brown Bear (which seems less dirty than Wolf BTW) without a hiccup, in an original, 1966 non-chrome lined XM16E1 upper with no problems at all. I do run it wet. Not a single hiccup so far - first time I did it I wasn't even thinking about it because it was a break-in /function test and in sighting it in we weren't paying too much attention to ammo, just getting it on paper. I know a lot of guys won't run steel cased at all, but I've had no issues, and if you were coing to have issues, you'd think it would happen with my upper of all of them. I am running a Colt FA BCG with chrome bolt FWIW.
Before I bought the BB, I did a lot of reading here, and decided it was worth the "risk". I'll try it again, before I start bugging the manuf. Just stinks in a way. Plenty of people here are running 100% with steel in ALL makes/quality of guns. Again, I hope it is "break-in" for me.
christcorp
03-29-11, 19:09
I do recommend that you try various brands. Contrary to what some may want to think and say; all steel case ammo is not the same. Besides Brown Bear, try wolf, tula, silver bear, and others.
Just like not all Brass ammo is the same; neither is all steel. And believe it or not, there are plenty of people who have had issues shooting certain BRASS ammo. It's not like "Brass is perfect - Steel sucks". Each weapon is unique. There are some that will shoot anything. There are some that are a little more picky on what it shoots. Including brass ammo. But because brass is usually "AMERICAN", people tend to think it won't fail. If it does, they automatically assume they have a problem with their rifle, and it's not the ammo. But with steel case ammo; if it doesn't work, it must be because steel case sucks. Try different ammo; BOTH BRASS and STEEL. You'll find a good consensus of what your gun likes.
2 truths I have found. Bushmasters are very picky with ammo. Many people who have had issues with steel case ammo, mention having a bushmaster. S&W M&P15 seem to be able to shoot anything. With or without higher gas pressure, their timing seems to be perfect. Whether I use a carbine or H2 buffer, they shoot anything and eject almost the same every time. And this is common experience among most M&P owners. That's why it's important for you to try different brands of ammo, and find what yours likes.
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M4Brian,
Do “worry” (ahead of time) where your gun is on The Chart. This “worrying” prevents overgassing which means your gun is hammering itself when you shoot the ammo it was designed for. This “worrying” also prevents poor metallurgy in the barrel, bolt, BCG, rust under your FSB; proper QC, testing, & assembly, correct timing, longer warranty, etc. This "preventative worrying" also makes the likelihood of problems down the road even less likely and issues that you'll have to deal with to bring your gun up to spec, nil.
I would rather have a gun not shoot a lesser quality brand ammo than to have it malfunction on quality full power ammo or to have its lifespan shortened because it was beating itself to death.
BTW, how "wet" are you running your gun?
But maybe it’s just me…
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I had problems running Wolf and read on this forum that the gun needs to wet. I oiled the BCG and it shot the Wolf like a champ. I'll just run it wetter with the steel.
Makintrax73
03-29-11, 22:31
If the steel cased ammo you are running is 55gr you might try running some 62gr instead. My BCM would short stroke 55gr steel cased, but has run over 500 rounds of BB 62gr hp with 1 fail to feed.
As pointed out it can be an issue of underpowered ammo, and the 62 seems to have just enough extra pressure to get the job done . Running reloaded brass case even a starting load cycles the gun just fine for me. It's just something about the steel case that seems to need a little extra push.
christcorp
03-29-11, 23:33
.
M4Brian,
Do “worry” (ahead of time) where your gun is on The Chart. This “worrying” prevents overgassing which means your gun is hammering itself when you shoot the ammo it was designed for. This “worrying” also prevents poor metallurgy in the barrel, bolt, BCG, rust under your FSB; proper QC, testing, & assembly, correct timing, longer warranty, etc. This "preventative worrying" also makes the likelihood of problems down the road even less likely and issues that you'll have to deal with to bring your gun up to spec, nil.
I would rather have a gun not shoot a lesser quality brand ammo than to have it malfunction on quality full power ammo or to have its lifespan shortened because it was beating itself to death.
BTW, how "wet" are you running your gun?
But maybe it’s just me…
.
The problem with this; you say that overgassing is a problem when your gun is shooting the ammo is was "Designed" to shoot. Well, these weapons were designed to shoot 5.56. That is different than .223. It is hotter. Now; considering that 95%+ of all AR shooters are mainly shooting .223 ammo; even if the rifle was a little overgassed, it wouldn't be an issue. Sort of like saying "My gun is +P rated and yours isn't. Ha Ha". Well; if I never shoot +P, I guess it really doesn't matter now; does it? In my M&P15, whether it's overgassed or not, (Which I believe it is, because the gas port is a little larger), I'm not worried. 1) I mainly shoot .223 ammo. and 2) ALL my AR's, I've always gone out and put in the HEAVIEST buffer that it can take, and still reliably shoot all ammo. So, the added resistance in the buffer will offset most, if any, additional stress.
Bottom line: The vast majority of Factory ammo (.223) is no where near max SAAMI specs; nor near 5.56 pressure. So "Overgassed" is over rated. Now; if I only shot 5.56 ammo; say "In the Military"; then I would be concerned. But guess what? I'm no longer in the military. I did my 21 years and moved on. I shoot mainly .223 ammo now. Not worried.
I'm not going to completely agree with christcorp, but I want to put something out there in response to urct:
I completely understand what you are saying in regards to the overgassing causing wear. But I am also aware of the fact that my gun contains several consumable items that will wear over time no matter what.
With my reasoning for owning the rifle, I want it to be able to run both kinds of ammo, and I am willing to accept the increased wear if that is the reasoning for why my gun shoots a range of ammunition. Personally I think this is a worthy trade off with where I am at in my life. I also can't help but picture two officers in a shoot out, and one hands another a magazine, then the receiving officer, knowing his rifle, has to check what ammo is in the magazine before loading it... Seems kind of counter productive to the purpose of a fighting gun.
Gents: Thanks for the comments - does shed some light.
MAcintrax's post is helpful - high end gun with 55 gr steel case trouble - did the short stroke end up in FTFeed?
Also, would it make sense to run my son's old "weak" smith buffer with the 55 gr, because I am sitting on a case...?
Thanks.
christcorp
03-30-11, 11:02
Excellent point Mac. One that I knew based on other discussions with steel case ammo and other topics; but didn't mention here. Glad you did. Bolts and BCG are wearable consumable items. In time, they will wear. But at a price of $35-$50 for a bolt; or $120-$150 for a complete BCG, the trade off for possible accelerated wear and tear is totally acceptable. My M&P15 will shoot literally any ammo I can feed it. I've tried 5 different steel case and 7 different brass case ammo; both .223 and 5.56. This was one of the final factors that I took into consideration when I decided on purchasing the M&P15. I wanted an AR that was not only reliable and dependable, but able to shoot any ammo on the market. I can't say that I've found anyone yet who has a basically stock M&P15 who has had any ammo related issues. so; if my bolt or BCG wears out slightly sooner because it's slightly overgassed; i can definitely live with that. Considering I am saving approximately $1000 a year on using steel case ammo; and have the benefit of buying any .223 or 5.56 ammo on the market.... Definitely a good trade off.
I'm not going to completely agree with christcorp, but I want to put something out there in response to urct:
I completely understand what you are saying in regards to the overgassing causing wear. But I am also aware of the fact that my gun contains several consumable items that will wear over time no matter what.
With my reasoning for owning the rifle, I want it to be able to run both kinds of ammo, and I am willing to accept the increased wear if that is the reasoning for why my gun shoots a range of ammunition. Personally I think this is a worthy trade off with where I am at in my life. I also can't help but picture two officers in a shoot out, and one hands another a magazine, then the receiving officer, knowing his rifle, has to check what ammo is in the magazine before loading it... Seems kind of counter productive to the purpose of a fighting gun.
I think some of you guys are missing the point.
Gents: Thanks for the comments - does shed some light.
MAcintrax's post is helpful - high end gun with 55 gr steel case trouble - did the short stroke end up in FTFeed?
Also, would it make sense to run my son's old "weak" smith buffer with the 55 gr, because I am sitting on a case...?
Thanks.
i suspect the gun will cycle that brown bear just fine with the lighter buffer. i'd definitely give it a try. did you scrub out/dry out the chamber?
Makintrax73
03-30-11, 14:56
Gents: Thanks for the comments - does shed some light.
MAcintrax's post is helpful - high end gun with 55 gr steel case trouble - did the short stroke end up in FTFeed?
Also, would it make sense to run my son's old "weak" smith buffer with the 55 gr, because I am sitting on a case...?
Thanks.
On the one short stroke I had with BB 62 it did not pick up the next cartridge in the mag. I pulled the trigger and got a 'click'. Waited for a hang fire, and checked to find nothing in the chamber. I presume that means it had just enough juice to get the empty out, but not enough to get the bolt face behind the rim of the next round. So I'm guessing I just got one round that was slightly under powered compared to the rest.
FWIW I am running the BCM M-16 BCG, and a rifle buffer - I presume the extra mass in those two parts requires some extra shove to get moving.
Belmont31R
03-30-11, 15:06
Im not sure why people think a gun tuned to run 5.56 won't run .223. You might have issues with some of the worst bottom of the barrel .223 ammo but most decent .223 ammo will run just fine.
But if your shooting is being done with the worst bottom of the barrel ammo then, yeah, you should probably get a gun better suited to handle it.
I'll be interested to see how well my carbine with a fixed stock/rifle buffer likes 55 gr loads...
Going to scrub the chamber a couple fo times this week. I'll try the rifle buffer also.
I guess there are some advantages to an overgassed gun...
M4Brian, unless I missed it, did you say if you run your gun wet?
Never meant to insinuate that a 5.56 rifle shouldn't be able to shoot .223 ammo. With the wide range of .223 ammo, I think it is possible for a rifle that shoots 99% of the ammo out there fine yet not function reliably with some of the "bottom of the barrel" stuff Belmont was talking about. I don't think that is the guns fault and I wouldn't want to modify my gun to be able to shoot the "botb" stuff.
Just wondering, what are some of the problems associated with over-gassing?
But maybe it's just me...
.
As far as I've read, overgassing wears the BCG faster. Some of this may also be from "bolt bounce" - it slams the BCG into the chamber so hard it bounces. But, as has been said, if you don't mind replacing components, and can run that way, maybe its OK - and cheaper to shoot.
I guess that we all have to keep in mind that if it is a legit M4, then it is designed to handle a BUNCH of HOT 5.56 often on full auto and fired way hot.
I do run it fairly well oiled.
For me, I don't mind trying my son's old non-carbine buffer (which comes with the Smith). As I have said - this gun WILL shoot the BB 55 gr accurately, and maybe it will shoot the 62 gr even better - and... if it is now undergassed for the steel stuff, then the buffer change may make it perfect. Heck... if I can shoot steel reliably, it may be my "go to" stuff. Sure works fine in my son's smith. I don't consider the BB the be cheap crap - it seems very consistent and accurate. I do have a good CHF barrel.
I will say this - I am DARN glad now, that my son is not the one with this problem. I can handle a hiccup better, and don't mind working through a gun issue. I've done it a few times.
Round and round he goes.
7926
Round and round he goes.
7926
So, instead of sarcasm, what would you suggest? Not everyone is as knowledgable as people like you, which is why I come here - to hear professional opinions. Sorry if this thread is not up to your usual standards.
Belmont31R
03-30-11, 21:23
M4Brian, unless I missed it, did you say if you run your gun wet?
Never meant to insinuate that a 5.56 rifle shouldn't be able to shoot .223 ammo. With the wide range of .223 ammo, I think it is possible for a rifle that shoots 99% of the ammo out there fine yet not function reliably with some of the "bottom of the barrel" stuff Belmont was talking about. I don't think that is the guns fault and I wouldn't want to modify my gun to be able to shoot the "botb" stuff.
Just wondering, what are some of the problems associated with over-gassing?
But maybe it's just me...
.
Increased wear is of little consequence to me.
Im more worried about being able to shoot 5.56 without increased muzzle rise and recoil. This translates into decreased accuracy/speed when doing drills and slower times between shots during long range accuracy oriented shooting.
Of course, again, if all someone shoots is whatevers cheapest then they are probably better off with a gun that would be overgassed with 5.56.
Getting an overgassed gun, and then throwing an H2 or H3 in there is stupid.
How about you go shoot the damn weapon first instead of wondering about something that isn't an issue? We keep going round and round on this issue and none of the answers seem to satisfy anyone.
So, instead of sarcasm, what would you suggest? Not everyone is as knowledgable as people like you, which is why I come here - to hear professional opinions. Sorry if this thread is not up to your usual standards.
Belmont31R
03-30-11, 21:42
How about you go shoot the damn weapon first instead of wondering about something that isn't an issue? We keep going round and round on this issue and none of the answers seem to satisfy anyone.
That works, too...:p
I guess that's why it's called a discussion. Isn't this a forum? You do have a very valid point, but forums wouldn't exist if people just did that right? ;) If this went on for pages and pages, I'd understand your impatience with this. As it is, I'm done discussing it too. No sense beating it to death, but I'd still like to hear your recommendation. If you made one to the OP I missed it.
I haven't had time to shoot my new build yet - I guess I consider bullshitting about stuff like this the next best thing. I didn't realize we were limited here. I know that a lot of real professionals hang out here, and I'm wondering now after reading this thread and the middy vs carbine thread if my new build will run the way I hope it will.
I've been lurking for some time - don't post much, I prefer to read and learn from people who really know what they are talking about. I've seen a lot of what I consider contradictory information about 'overgassed' weapons here, but it's interesting reading other opinions that refute what I've read prior to this and heard other people say about carbine gas systems/buffers and ammo choices. That's how you learn IMO, not just by doing it yourself. Guess I'll go back to just lurking. Sorry if I pissed you off in any way. That was not my intent.
Belmont31R
03-30-11, 22:10
I guess that's why it's called a discussion. Isn't this a forum? You do have a very valid point, but forums wouldn't exist if people just did that right? ;) If this went on for pages and pages, I'd understand your impatience with this. As it is, I'm done discussing it too. No sense beating it to death, but I'd still like to hear your recommendation. If you made one to the OP I missed it.
I haven't had time to shoot my new build yet - I guess I consider bullshitting about stuff like this the next best thing. I didn't realize we were limited here. I know that a lot of real professionals hang out here, and I'm wondering now after reading this thread and the middy vs carbine thread if my new build will run the way I hope it will.
I've been lurking for some time - don't post much, I prefer to read and learn from people who really know what they are talking about. I've seen a lot of what I consider contradictory information about 'overgassed' weapons here, but it's interesting reading other opinions that refute what I've read prior to this and heard other people say about carbine gas systems/buffers and ammo choices. That's how you learn IMO, not just by doing it yourself. Guess I'll go back to just lurking. Sorry if I pissed you off in any way. That was not my intent.
Thats not his intent at all.....but you really do need to go shoot the thing, and see how it does with the ammo you plan on shooting.
If it seems that I am pissed, that's really not the issue. It just gets old when people ask for advice, don't hear what they want and then get upset.
For the record the OP posted this in another area where he complained that his upper wouldn't work. I gave him my thoughts there as well as in a PM.
I know that there are people that don't want to hear this, but if your AR doesn't work with steel case then I am sorry to hear it.
I also pointed out earlier that the OP's sons' AR which is a S&W will work with almost anything for the simple fact that the gas port is HUGE. I don't know how else to convey that message.
I recommend that the OP actually use some different ammo and magazines and lube the weapon properly. Then see what happens.
My BCM SBR has eaten well over 2200 rounds now of steel case with almsot no cleaning. I have also mixed it in with brass case on the same day running the gun until it was very hot.
Still no malfunctions. I must be incredibly lucky.
I guess that's why it's called a discussion. Isn't this a forum? You do have a very valid point, but forums wouldn't exist if people just did that right? ;) If this went on for pages and pages, I'd understand your impatience with this. As it is, I'm done discussing it too. No sense beating it to death, but I'd still like to hear your recommendation. If you made one to the OP I missed it.
I haven't had time to shoot my new build yet - I guess I consider bullshitting about stuff like this the next best thing. I didn't realize we were limited here. I know that a lot of real professionals hang out here, and I'm wondering now after reading this thread and the middy vs carbine thread if my new build will run the way I hope it will.
I've been lurking for some time - don't post much, I prefer to read and learn from people who really know what they are talking about. I've seen a lot of what I consider contradictory information about 'overgassed' weapons here, but it's interesting reading other opinions that refute what I've read prior to this and heard other people say about carbine gas systems/buffers and ammo choices. That's how you learn IMO, not just by doing it yourself. Guess I'll go back to just lurking. Sorry if I pissed you off in any way. That was not my intent.
It just gets old when people ask for advice, don't hear what they want and then get upset.
There's been many of those short bus riders falling out of the back of their bus and landing here lately. :rolleyes:
I understand long-time members getting frustrated with hearing the same questions over and over, and I understand frustration with people not listening. I'm just not a big fan of sarcasm - I got enough of that shit as a kid from my old man so I guess it's a big red button for me. I moved west to get away from the whole east coast attitude. I guess it's mellowed me quite a bit.
I'm the poster, and I never got upset.
I never said my upper didn't work either - and NEVER said I had issue in general with it. In this thread I asked about an specific issue, with a particular ammo, and got some darn good responses with stuff I had not considered - like the gas port, buffer, etc.
Even on the original post I put a "?" in the title for a reason, and I didn't assume it was the "gun's fault" per se. I did do a bunch of reading before getting the BB, and chose it over Wolf for a reason. As one can see here, plenty of folks with low and and high end shooting the crap out of steel cases without a hiccup. And... as I said, and it's plain from what I've posted. I am willing to try to work through it before calling the manufacturer and whining. I thought that I could get some good tips here. That's all.
I've been respectful throughout, and never took issue even with the sarcasm - not worth it.
Thanks to those who gave some experience and tips. It will help when I go out again.
Maybe complained was too strong a word. However, you did state previously that your AR wasn't working with steel case ammo.
I believe that I advised you to contact that manufacturer anyways and see. Why don't you get some Hornady steel case ammo and see what happens.
I'm the poster, and I never got upset.
I never said my upper didn't work either - and NEVER said I had issue in general with it. In this thread I asked about an specific issue, with a particular ammo, and got some darn good responses with stuff I had not considered - like the gas port, buffer, etc.
Even on the original post I put a "?" in the title for a reason, and I didn't assume it was the "gun's fault" per se. I did do a bunch of reading before getting the BB, and chose it over Wolf for a reason. As one can see here, plenty of folks with low and and high end shooting the crap out of steel cases without a hiccup. And... as I said, and it's plain from what I've posted. I am willing to try to work through it before calling the manufacturer and whining. I thought that I could get some good tips here. That's all.
I've been respectful throughout, and never took issue even with the sarcasm - not worth it.
Thanks to those who gave some experience and tips. It will help when I go out again.
I can't say that I've found anyone yet who has a basically stock M&P15 who has had any ammo related issues. so; if my bolt or BCG wears out slightly sooner because it's slightly overgassed; i can definitely live with that.
Well you haven't looked hard enough there. My stock M&P15 had a ton of ammo related issues that are very well documented on this site.
As for the issue regarding IGunz and all the kiddy gloves stuff:
I think it really comes down to the end users desire. If they want to search and search until someone tells them that what they want to do may work, that is their prerogative I guess. If I look hard enough I can find a mechanic that will tell me I can drive on bald tires with no negative results, but it doesn't change reality.
So much of what you said is here is stupid and makes me wonder if you understand the AR at all.
First off. Where did you get your 95% stat? Let me guess, you made it up.
Second. Do you know what causes bolt bounce? If not, do some research. If your gun is getting beat up due to overgassing, what do you think is happening to your gasport? Have you heard of "gasport erosion"?
The problem with this; you say that overgassing is a problem when your gun is shooting the ammo is was "Designed" to shoot. Well, these weapons were designed to shoot 5.56. That is different than .223. It is hotter. Now; considering that 95%+ of all AR shooters are mainly shooting .223 ammo; even if the rifle was a little overgassed, it wouldn't be an issue. Sort of like saying "My gun is +P rated and yours isn't. Ha Ha". Well; if I never shoot +P, I guess it really doesn't matter now; does it? In my M&P15, whether it's overgassed or not, (Which I believe it is, because the gas port is a little larger), I'm not worried. 1) I mainly shoot .223 ammo. and 2) ALL my AR's, I've always gone out and put in the HEAVIEST buffer that it can take, and still reliably shoot all ammo. So, the added resistance in the buffer will offset most, if any, additional stress.
Bottom line: The vast majority of Factory ammo (.223) is no where near max SAAMI specs; nor near 5.56 pressure. So "Overgassed" is over rated. Now; if I only shot 5.56 ammo; say "In the Military"; then I would be concerned. But guess what? I'm no longer in the military. I did my 21 years and moved on. I shoot mainly .223 ammo now. Not worried.
christcorp
04-01-11, 08:26
You are definitely free to shoot any gun and any ammo that you want. No one is stopping you. If you think most people are shooting 5.56 ammo compared to .223 ammo; you are also free to believe that too.
The overwhelming majority of ammo I shoot is .223. It has less pressure than 5.56. I'm not worried about the gun being "overgassed". You can be; that's fine. I'm not. Now; if i was still in the military, shooting an M-16 either full auto or burst, and I was going to be putting substantially more rounds through the weapon than I am now; I'd be worried about overgassed and bolt bounce. I'd care if i had an M16 instead of an AR BCG. But I'm not still in the military. I shoot semi-auto. I don't shoot the gun until the barrel is cherry red. And I'm not shooting only 5.56 ammo. So I am completely content. And THAT is all that matters. It doesn't matter what you shoot or why. That's you. I don't shoot 75 grain match bullets, so a 1:7 twist barrel isn't important to me. There's a lot of things I no longer do with an AR that I did do while in the military. I don't have a need for a mil-spec M16 in semi-auto configuration. If you are, that's great. You know how to build or buy one.
You mentioned previously of how you appeared pissed; better yet frustrated by some posters who ask questions and don't like to hear the answer. I understand what you're saying. I get frustrated too when people basically say that if my AR isn't completely mil-spec, that it's 2nd class and lower quality. That's pure shiite, but I have to listen to it anyway. A person is free to have an AR configured any way they want to. And if for whatever reason, they feel they need a completely mil-spec AR, they are totally free to build/buy one. But not everyone feels that way. That doesn't make them or their AR wrong or lower quality. And if you want to believe that the majority of AR shooters are shooting 5.56, or argue about such insignificant numbers, you are free to believe that too.
Anyway; you didn't hear me say that the M&P15 WASN'T overgassed. I've recognized that a number of times. I'm simply saying that for me, it's a non-issue. And I don't need anyone else telling me that I'm wrong or have a substandard weapon because of it. You can buy what you want. I am totally OK with what I have. But I definitely understand your frustration and being pissed off. I feel the same way when people try forcing their usage and configuration on me; and try and tell me that I'm wrong if i don't accept it.
Athirst5IoN
04-01-11, 09:02
My BCM SBR has eaten well over 2200 rounds now of steel case with almsot no cleaning. I have also mixed it in with brass case on the same day running the gun until it was very hot.
Still no malfunctions. I must be incredibly lucky.
I hope this question doesn't tick anyone off... I don't remember seeing where the OP stated what kind of gun he owned, only that his son has a S&W. Iraqgunz, what may be different with your BCM that allows it to function well as opposed to whatever the OP has? If the OP hasn't stated what kind of rifle he has then my question may be off, and of that I apologize (if he has a BCM, DD, LMT, etc. then I would like know what could cause the difference in reliability). I'm just not as advanced as some of you so I would like to understand more about this.
I hope this question doesn't tick anyone off... I don't remember seeing where the OP stated what kind of gun he owned, only that his son has a S&W. Iraqgunz, what may be different with your BCM that allows it to function well as opposed to whatever the OP has? If the OP hasn't stated what kind of rifle he has then my question may be off, and of that I apologize (if he has a BCM, DD, LMT, etc. then I would like know what could cause the difference in reliability). I'm just not as advanced as some of you so I would like to understand more about this.
One thing to bear in mind is not all "steel case" ammo is created equal. For instance, the Hornady steel cased ammo uses their powder loadings and bullets; it is really excellently performing very accurate ammo at a fair price. I don't even think of it as "steel" - it never goes wrong, and it always cycles in whichever rifle you use it in.....undergassed, overgassed, whatever gassed, the Hornady works.
The Russian stuff, on the other hand.....as a rule, the Brown Bear what the OP was having the problems with is pretty good from a reliability perspective. In my experience of loads of steel cased ammo (and echoed by plenty of others here), if you are going to use Russian ammo, then the Bear family of ammo is the way to go. That said, even with Bear, over the last couple of years I have had a couple of individual lots which have been a bit on the weak side. It could be that the OP has gotten himself one of these lots. If you go with Tula for your steel cased needs however....chances are (with an in-spec rifle....not an overgassed one), you are *for sure* going to get some short stroking at some point - that ammo really is weak, and some individual rounds even weaker....really inconsistent. Heck, with that Tula crap I've even had a couple of bolts failing to lock back in my overgassed M&P15, which says something about how weak it is.
IMHO, the bottom line to answer the part of your question in bold - assuming a 100% in-spec, well maintained, as it should be rifle - when you are running weak assed ammo (and that applies to some cheap brass as well), the "fault" ultimately lies with the ammo.
Belmont31R
04-01-11, 10:10
Yes I would recommend the Hornady steel case. I've shot quite a bit of it, and have 4 cases sitting on my shelf. I've even shot a few sub MOA 10 shot groups with the 75GR BTHP version.
I've shot it in my SR15, 16" mid length gas, and 18" rifle length gas. All functioned 100% with it. The 75GR variation is great for precision practice, and I think they even have a new version out it out now.
christcorp
04-01-11, 10:47
hornady Steel case polymer coated .223 ammo at a "FAIR PRICE"???
It's not a fair price in my opinion. I can get brass case ammo for less money. And compared to russian steel case at $4-$5 a box, I'll take that.
Belmont31R
04-01-11, 10:59
hornady Steel case polymer coated .223 ammo at a "FAIR PRICE"???
It's not a fair price in my opinion. I can get brass case ammo for less money. And compared to russian steel case at $4-$5 a box, I'll take that.
Eh it depends on where/when you buy it. I haven't bought any in a while but it was 1-2 bucks a box cheaper than any brass case. The 75 grain load is a good deal for training ammo with a good bullet in it. I haven't had near as good luck with any of the cheap brass case match ammo.
hornady Steel case polymer coated .223 ammo at a "FAIR PRICE"???
It's not a fair price in my opinion. I can get brass case ammo for less money. And compared to russian steel case at $4-$5 a box, I'll take that.
It's lacquer coated. And I'm not really interested that you can get brass case for less money.....the reason I say it is a fair price is that it is *far and away* more accurate than not only any old Russian ammo, but most bulk brand brass ammo as well. I am personally well beyond this whole steel/brass reliability argument...I know what works in my rifles; case construction is a whole non-issue for me. As I just mentioned I believe 99% of the "steel case" reliability issues have got more to do with the weakness of the loading than the case metal.
I agree with your argument about cheap bear ammo - I use it by the ton for short range practice and "hoser" rifle match stages. But when I'm trying to shoot small steel plates at 200-350 yards on the clock from field positions, while it will work, Bear ammo is just not good enough for good times.
I will say though the price on the Hornady steel cased has risen a bit lately and it is not the absolute bargain it was just 6 months ago.
ETA...I see you just beat me to the same line, Belmont! :)
christcorp
04-01-11, 11:09
I definitely agree with you if you're into competition or marksmanship type shooting. I don't shoot my AR's at 300 yards. But if you are into that, then I'm sure the hornady 75 grain is much more accurate. Except for a couple hunting rifles and shotguns, my guns are for "People". I'm not into the marksmanship type shooting. I care about hitting a 6" spot at 100 yards with open sights or a red-dot. But if you are into the long range type shooting, I agree 100% with you.
It's lacquer coated. And I'm not really interested that you can get brass case for less money.....the reason I say it is a fair price is that it is *far and away* more accurate than not only any old Russian ammo, but most bulk brand brass ammo as well. I am personally well beyond this whole steel/brass reliability argument...I know what works in my rifles; case construction is a whole non-issue for me. As I just mentioned I believe 99% of the "steel case" reliability issues have got more to do with the weakness of the loading than the case metal.
I agree with your argument about cheap bear ammo - I use it by the ton for short range practice and "hoser" rifle match stages. But when I'm trying to shoot small steel plates at 200-350 yards on the clock from field positions, while it will work, Bear ammo is just not good enough for good times.
I will say though the price on the Hornady steel cased has risen a bit lately and it is not the absolute bargain it was just 6 months ago.
It is evident to me that the BB I shot was fine - not underpowered FOR BB. Again, my son has been shooting the same case for three sessions, without a hiccup. And... my accuracy was VERY satisfactory.
I had considered Hornady Steel prior as Igunz suggested. It was pretty close in price to brass SS109 (decent stuff) from some of the vendors here so I passed.
The BB seems to be the best deal at close distance (under 200), as you can get it around $210 delivered by some folks. So... given that it is accurate, I wanted to try it. Again, I learned some things here in the fray.
I WILL consider Hornady in a future buy, as it may be better for both purposes for me as I am 1:7 twist, and it would be better than SS109 for emergency use. And... as I don't reload yet, it may be the best stock to have in the event our world tanks...
I believe the best you can get for TAP 75gr is about $.40/rd shipped. Thus, it does not meet "cheap" practice ammo for me - as BB is $.21/rd. and is plenty accurate for range use, and has been used by many on this forum well. BUT... again, a 75 gr slug from a high quality manufacturer may be the ticket for SOME of my ammo needs.
It's obvious that you are simply here to argue rather than listen to any facts. Here are a few facts for you.
1. You said 95% of all shooters are shooting .223, not 5.56. I asked you where that number came from. The response you provided was to put it bluntly- BULLSHIT. I never made a claim as to how many do or don't nor do I give a shit.
2. You are correct. I am free to shoot whatever I want. I also impart that experience to others so they don't have to learn the hardway. This site is about sharing information and experiences to enlighten other shooters. Shooters that actual care about their AR's and have them for self defense or duty use.
3. By not caring about whether or not your gun is overgassed tells me quite simply you aren't a serious AR shooter.
4. This isn't "some other site". We don't recommend that people purchase substandard AR's, parts or accesories for the simple fact that it goes against what this site is about. If you want to subscribe to that belief there are plenty of other website that will indulge you and may even worship you as some kind of deity.
You are definitely free to shoot any gun and any ammo that you want. No one is stopping you. If you think most people are shooting 5.56 ammo compared to .223 ammo; you are also free to believe that too.
The overwhelming majority of ammo I shoot is .223. It has less pressure than 5.56. I'm not worried about the gun being "overgassed". You can be; that's fine. I'm not. Now; if i was still in the military, shooting an M-16 either full auto or burst, and I was going to be putting substantially more rounds through the weapon than I am now; I'd be worried about overgassed and bolt bounce. I'd care if i had an M16 instead of an AR BCG. But I'm not still in the military. I shoot semi-auto. I don't shoot the gun until the barrel is cherry red. And I'm not shooting only 5.56 ammo. So I am completely content. And THAT is all that matters. It doesn't matter what you shoot or why. That's you. I don't shoot 75 grain match bullets, so a 1:7 twist barrel isn't important to me. There's a lot of things I no longer do with an AR that I did do while in the military. I don't have a need for a mil-spec M16 in semi-auto configuration. If you are, that's great. You know how to build or buy one.
You mentioned previously of how you appeared pissed; better yet frustrated by some posters who ask questions and don't like to hear the answer. I understand what you're saying. I get frustrated too when people basically say that if my AR isn't completely mil-spec, that it's 2nd class and lower quality. That's pure shiite, but I have to listen to it anyway. A person is free to have an AR configured any way they want to. And if for whatever reason, they feel they need a completely mil-spec AR, they are totally free to build/buy one. But not everyone feels that way. That doesn't make them or their AR wrong or lower quality. And if you want to believe that the majority of AR shooters are shooting 5.56, or argue about such insignificant numbers, you are free to believe that too.
Anyway; you didn't hear me say that the M&P15 WASN'T overgassed. I've recognized that a number of times. I'm simply saying that for me, it's a non-issue. And I don't need anyone else telling me that I'm wrong or have a substandard weapon because of it. You can buy what you want. I am totally OK with what I have. But I definitely understand your frustration and being pissed off. I feel the same way when people try forcing their usage and configuration on me; and try and tell me that I'm wrong if i don't accept it.
It's quite simple. BCM builds a good quality AR with quality components. I then selected those components and built an SBR that runs.
They use quality barrels with 5.56 chambers and the correct gas port sizes.
Hornady ammo is also not like the other steel case in the market as has already been pointed out.
I hope this question doesn't tick anyone off... I don't remember seeing where the OP stated what kind of gun he owned, only that his son has a S&W. Iraqgunz, what may be different with your BCM that allows it to function well as opposed to whatever the OP has? If the OP hasn't stated what kind of rifle he has then my question may be off, and of that I apologize (if he has a BCM, DD, LMT, etc. then I would like know what could cause the difference in reliability). I'm just not as advanced as some of you so I would like to understand more about this.
christcorp
04-02-11, 10:26
And that seems to be the difference here. If anyone "DISAGREES" with you, you say they are "ARGUING". But if you disagree, then it's simply you giving your "Professional Opinion". I'm not arguing at all. I'm simply saying that a weapon (AR15) for Self Defense purposes doesn't have to be complete mil-spec/TDP compliant. And that is the truth. And it can be just as reliable and dependable for that purpose. Some people may have a need or more likely a "Want" for a weapon that is completely mil-spec or TDP compliant. That doesn't mean that everyone does. Especially for Self Defense.
This sight is no doubt the "Best" in my opinion when it comes to the technical structure and workings of an AR15. There are many highly knowledgeable individuals on this sight. I consider you to be one of those highly knowledgeable individuals. But sometimes self defense and duty use for some people isn't quite the same as you might define it as.
.
I do not shoot a lot so I do not care that my barrel is made out of a substandard steel and/or has no chrome-lining.
I am not into long range shooting, so I do not care about the twist my rifle barrel has.
I do not shoot powerful 5.56 NATO rounds, so I do not care if my rifle is over-gassed.
I do not shoot in a hurry, so I do not care if my magazines drop clear.
I don’t plan on using my gun for SD, so I don’t care if it malfunctions and is not accurate.
I have plenty of time to clear malfunctions, so I don’t care if the cheap ammo and junk magazines I use in my less than mil-spec rifle cause problems.
I’ve done a lot of research on the web, so trust me when I tell you, “My gun meets all of my needs and is the best value AR available right now! My gun doesn’t need to meet the professional and military specifications or the civilian “Chart” because I don’t need those criterion (or care), so your gun doesn’t need them either!”
I will agree and not argue with anything you say as long as I can get the last word in twisting what you say to mean what I want it to mean as long as it means what I think I want you to know it means.
…...knowwhatImean…??
April 2nd Fool’s…..
.
christcorp
04-02-11, 11:14
Well; if that's your criteria, then I guess you're in good shape. That's not my criteria however.
.
I do not shoot a lot so I do not care that my barrel is made out of a substandard steel and/or has no chrome-lining.
I am not into long range shooting, so I do not care about the twist my rifle barrel has.
I do not shoot powerful 5.56 NATO rounds, so I do not care if my rifle is over-gassed.
I do not shoot in a hurry, so I do not care if my magazines drop clear.
I don’t plan on using my gun for SD, so I don’t care if it malfunctions and is not accurate.
I have plenty of time to clear malfunctions, so I don’t care if the cheap ammo and junk magazines I use in my less than mil-spec rifle cause problems.
I’ve done a lot of research on the web, so trust me when I tell you, “My gun meets all of my needs and is the best value AR available right now! My gun doesn’t need to meet the professional and military specifications or the civilian “Chart” because I don’t need those criterion (or care), so your gun doesn’t need them either!”
I will agree and not argue with anything you say as long as I can get the last word in twisting what you say to mean what I want it to mean as long as it means what I think I want you to know it means.
…...knowwhatImean…??
April 2nd Fool’s…..
.
.
I do not shoot a lot so I do not care that my barrel is made out of a substandard steel and/or has no chrome-lining.
I am not into long range shooting, so I do not care about the twist my rifle barrel has.
I do not shoot powerful 5.56 NATO rounds, so I do not care if my rifle is over-gassed.
I do not shoot in a hurry, so I do not care if my magazines drop clear.
I don’t plan on using my gun for SD, so I don’t care if it malfunctions and is not accurate.
I have plenty of time to clear malfunctions, so I don’t care if the cheap ammo and junk magazines I use in my less than mil-spec rifle cause problems.
I’ve done a lot of research on the web, so trust me when I tell you, “My gun meets all of my needs and is the best value AR available right now! My gun doesn’t need to meet the professional and military specifications or the civilian “Chart” because I don’t need those criterion (or care), so your gun doesn’t need them either!”
I will agree and not argue with anything you say as long as I can get the last word in twisting what you say to mean what I want it to mean as long as it means what I think I want you to know it means.
…...knowwhatImean…??
April 2nd Fool’s…..
.
:lol:
BLUF: I MAY have concluded that my problem with shooting BB has more to do with my 20 round magazines and the SHORT legged followers in them than anything else, and the the M4 system's WEAKEST point is the mag.
Went to the range today with my WELL lubed "high end" M4. I also replaced the buffer with my son's Smith's old buffer. Despite the twanging from this buffer, I shot 60 rounds without a hitch using a different 20 round Magpul. Not a problem. I loaded up another mag, and the second to last round jammed. It is one where the BOLT catches the case and JAMS the round into the barrel extension - it never really gets behind the case head.
OK... So I then shot some brass, and concluded that steel may not be for me. Changed back to my H buffer. Then I shot my AK - something about ol reliable...
Then you know, my son's MAGIC Smith jammed the same way TWICE. Hmmmm..... So, while I was loading an AK mag I noticed that no matter HOW I jammed a round in the mag, it always stayed level... Remembering that this was NOT true for my 5.56 20 rounders, I examined the 20 round mag - when I press down on the REAR of the follower, it sinks ALL the way down... Then I grabbed a good Magpul 30 rounder - not the same - the follower stays pretty level even when you press DOWN on the rear. OK - now we are getting somewhere. My son switched back to the 30 rounders and had no more issues. I loaded up my gun with a 30 and a mixed bunch of steel and brass - and no issues. This is NOT conclusive, I'd need to shoot another 100 rounds to be completely convinced, but its good enough to say that I really think it is the 20 rounders with the shot legged followers. I may order some 30 round followers.
So... I really don't think its my gun. Patience is better than jumping to conclusions - of course, I had no conclusions before this afternoon, and I'm glad I went through this, and thank all for the responses. But, the follower theory LOOKS right. I actually think my gun will run on BB now.
Why does the brass do better? The only thing I can think of is that it is closer to the "real deal" and does better in the mag.
But she shoots the BB accurately, so I'll be happy to run BB.
When in doubt look into the mags...
....When in doubt look into the mags...
==================================
I read in a Thread somewhere today where someone quoted Dean Caputo's old acronym for the majority of AR problems:
> > > M.E.A.L. < < <
Magazine
Extraction/Ejection
Ammo
Lubrication
Glad you're getting it resolved.
Just curious...what make is your "high end" AR? I won't tell anyone. ;)
.
As IG said, shoot the carbine. The barrel is new and needs to be broken in. Before any of y'uns get yer knickers in a knot, read on.
Needs to be broken in is a bit strong and what I'm talking about is the chamber. When cut, the reamer leaves marks around the circumference of the chamber and make things a bit sticky until they smooth out. There is a special method to use to break in your chamber.
Shoot.
Shoot your carbine and the chamber smooths itself out. Before anyone starts shouting "Voodoo!" and starts looking for chicken blood under every rock, realize that you're going to shoot your carbine anyway. Shooting will smooth out the chamber and get the working parts of the rest of the rifle settled in to one another.
I don't have any hard & fast data to prove my conclusions, but anyone can look up the properties of brass & steel and how they affect the performance of each as a cartridge case.
Use brass cased ammo to break in your carbine. It won't make a lick of difference to the rest of the carbine, but it may make a difference to it's chamber. Cases made from brass usually give fewer problems with a new carbine than steel.
Brass has better elasticity than steel. It will stretch more under pressure, making full contact against the chamber walls. It will also contract more than steel when the pressure drops.
Steel case necks often don't expand fast enough to seal the chamber from gases from getting into the chamber and there is generally more carbon build up as a result. The web of steel cases do not contract as much as brass. Combine a newly cut or rough chamber with more carbon with lower powered rounds and it's no wonder the BCG doesn't have enough energy to correctly function.
As such, it's my feeling that brass cases will smooth out the chamber walls quicker as they make full contact and allow less carbon fouling to hinder the process.
From posts made on this site, a common thread to carbines that run steel reliably is that they have been shot enough to be well broke in.
I'd run the carbine as it came for a few hundred rounds before making any changes
As IG said, shoot the carbine. The barrel is new and needs to be broken in. Before any of y'uns get yer knickers in a knot, read on.
Needs to be broken in is a bit strong and what I'm talking about is the chamber. When cut, the reamer leaves marks around the circumference of the chamber and make things a bit sticky until they smooth out. There is a special method to use to break in your chamber.
Shoot.
Shoot your carbine and the chamber smooths itself out. Before anyone starts shouting "Voodoo!" and starts looking for chicken blood under every rock,....
Maybe the BEST post yet. It is also behind my only failure today coming later on. I also think that things are "sticky" and new/rough in any gun. I even think my (new to me) SAR-1 needed a few rounds to be a little more accruate.
Amen on shooting more.
[I still think the followers on the 20 rounders are an issue. Not huge, but an issue. BTW - I do think MAGPUL is the best mag out there!
BTW - I laughed my head off on the chicken blood stuff...
Belmont31R
04-03-11, 20:47
I am a believer in running at least 500rds of good ammo through any new gun. Ive had enough that new actions feel gritty and rough when brand new. At 500 rounds they feel pretty smooth along with copious amounts of finger ****ing. My SR15, at over 15k, has a bright shiny silver streak on the CH and (inside) top of the reciever where the CH rubs. It feels super smooth pulling the CH back whereas when it was new it felt gritty and noticeable resistance because of the friction.
Granted a gun should run out of the box with good ammo but things do smooth out with rounds down the pipe. The 500 rounds I recommend is just to get a decent wear in on the various parts, and to make sure the gun does run as expected.
Also if a gun is chambered in 5.56 the gas port should be tuned to that load. Not a 5.56 chamber with a .223 size gas port. 5.56 simply runs hotter, and thus the gas port does not need to be as big. If you want to run .223 you're better off with a .223 chamber and gas port size.
Actually, we do not know if 223 ammo is loaded to lower pressures than 5.56 ammo.
What we do know is that the 5.56 leade is longer than the leade for the 223. 5.56 ammo using the same bullet as the 223 is loaded to a longer overall length so the bullet has less jump to engage the rifling.
Conversely, the same bullet loaded in a 223 is seated deeper for a shorter OAL requiring the bullet to make a longer jump before engaging the rifling with the 5.56 leade. This reduces pressures and velocity.
Also, the way pressures for the 5.56 are specified and measured by NATO standards and methods which differ from SAMMI. NATO pressure specs do not directly compare to SAMMI specs any more than PSI pressures can be compared to CUP.
We won't know how the pressures of the two loads compare until both are tested in their intended chambers using the same test standards and methods.
The facts are, 223 ammo gives less performance when fired in a barrel cut with a 5.56 leade compared to the same ammo fired in a barrel with a 223 leade. We also know that we experience pressure spikes because the ogive of the 5.56 bullet can be jammed into the rifling when a 223 spec leade is used.
My bet is that if one were to seat the bullets of the 5.56 to give the same OAL as the 223, pressures would drop to safe levels with the 223 spec leade. (Intrusion of the bullet into the case space could change pressures. However, it's been my experience that small variations in seating depth with the same bullet only changes pressures a very small amount if at all.)
A purely practical trigger puller may see this as nothing more than semantics, but it is an important difference when discussing internal ballistics
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