View Full Version : Do the Masterpiece Arms MAC-11 (9x19mm) clones suck?
Magic_Salad0892
03-27-11, 14:02
Just a question.
Would like to buy one later this year, after I get my other projects finished.
Or maybe build a Suppressed .32 ACP (or 9x18mm) Skorpion Vz. 61 clone.
Yes, they do.
The only MAC's I've seen that consistently run well are the old transferrable Powder Springs guns, or the Cobray transferrable M11's.
If you're looking for a toy, I'd definitely go with a vz61 Skorpion that's SBR'd with the folding stock.
yes, they suck very much.
My personal opinion is that a semi MAC is of absolutely no use. Just buy a fullauto MAC 10 or 11 if you want a MAC. A Cobray MAC 11 can still be found for under $3k.
Yes, they do.
1st hand experience?
I don't have 1st hand experience, but the people at the mac10 section of the uzi talk forums say good things about them.
My personal opinion is that a semi MAC is of absolutely no use.
the side cocking carbines with the optic rail are neat.
1st hand experience?
I don't have 1st hand experience, but the people at the mac10 section of the uzi talk forums say good things about them.
the side cocking carbines with the optic rail are neat.
Yes, first hand experience. I've been at this game since 1987.
My personal opinion is that a semi MAC is of absolutely no use. Just buy a fullauto MAC 10 or 11 if you want a MAC. A Cobray MAC 11 can still be found for under $3k.
Except of course for the old RPB open bolt semi autos.
I've been searching the net for while and can't find any body talking down on masterpiece arms mac10 clones.
Isn't it typical that displeased gun owners are much louder than those that are satisfied? Yet I can't find any posts showing "I ****ing hate this piece of shit. It sucks, OMG it jams, blah blah blah **** masterpiece arms.":sarcastic:
If anybody can give examples of the crap that supposedly masterpiece arms sells, please show me because like the OP, I'm also interested in one of their products and would not like to make a mistake.
2011 shot show footage for the heck of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTn6CiL7aU0
You should definitely buy one kal.
Definitely.
I've been searching the net for while and can't find any body talking down on masterpiece arms mac10 clones.
Part of this is because invariably when people realized they spent their money on absolute bullshit, instead of being intellectually honest and admitting so, they usually do one of two things:
-Say nothing
-Worse, they talk about how badass their purchase was because if you buy one too, you validate their, 'awesome decision' to buy said POS.
You won't find any experienced person, anywhere, saying that it was a worthwhile purchase outside of re-creating some 80's action scene for youtube.
Nevermind. I agree with Templar. Buy one dude. Definitely buy one.
You should definitely buy one kal.
Nevermind. I agree with Templar. Buy one dude. Definitely buy one.
:lol:
It's hard to find another 45acp carbine that takes m3a1 grease gun mags and an optic for under a grand.
wetidlerjr
03-28-11, 05:27
Do I detect sarcasm ? :D
Do I detect sarcasm ? :D
Sometimes you get tired of trying to help people who won't accept it.
So, they can learn the hard way.
Buy two, master chief style.
http://i56.tinypic.com/35lu2ih.jpg
Magic_Salad0892
03-28-11, 08:43
Thanks for the feedback.
Also... side charging optic railed MACs are retarded.
MACs, much like AKs, should be very very simple.
I would want a folding wire stock, and suppressor, top charging.
Might look for one of the full auto ones. Replace bolt, barrel, and springs, and it would be awesome.
Templar, any good Vz. 61 Skorpion clones you like in particular?
I actually just love 9x19mm submachine guns. UZI, and Sterling come to mind.
Kal. I bet if you got one of the 3 1/2'' barrelled ones you could use it as your CCW...
Thanks for the feedback.
Also... side charging optic railed MACs are retarded.
MACs, much like AKs, should be very very simple.
I would want a folding wire stock, and suppressor, top charging.
Might look for one of the full auto ones. Replace bolt, barrel, and springs, and it would be awesome.
Templar, any good Vz. 61 Skorpion clones you like in particular?
I actually just love 9x19mm submachine guns. UZI, and Sterling come to mind.
Kal. I bet if you got one of the 3 1/2'' barrelled ones you could use it as your CCW...
There's only one, Czechpoint. (http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/)
Have Sellars at InRange put the military folding stock back on it, he's done more of them and does it better.
http://inrangec2.com/
CDNN Investments had some Czechpoints for damn cheap.
There's also the AT94K (Turkish MP5K) that could be SBR'd, additionally Vector Arms has factory Full Size and Mini UZI SBR's.
I have always had a soft spot for the scorpion I would love to get One!!
I have had A Cobray M-11 9mm and it Sucked trigger slap was Awful .It was picky About what it would eat. I sold it this was in 92
In 1988 I also Had a Intertec arms KG-99 (Tec-9) While I heard good things about the Open bolt version .The closed Bolt Version I got would Jam every 3 rounds Like Clock work the Case would turn side ways.and get smashed into the Breech ,cut my fingers many times trying to Un-jam it.
My Moms Boy friend stole it :eek:which in my book was a Blessing :D
I got My first Poly-Tech Legend after that
I would go with a Scorpion that is Just a Better Option In My Book .Out of what you want .
KAL I believe Vector Has a Uzi that Accepts Grease Gun Mags in 45 and is around 700.I would save My pennies and go that route.
Just My 2 cents
Also... side charging optic railed MACs are retarded.
MACs, much like AKs, should be very very simple.
nah, I don't think so. The more options, the better, on any firearm.
KAL I believe Vector Has a Uzi that Accepts Grease Gun Mags in 45 and is around 700.I would save My pennies and go that route.
It can't take an optic. At atlantic arms, it's listed for $989. :eek:
Worst of all, even though it has a 16in barrel, due to its folding stock it is completely illegal in Michigan because of our ****ed up SBR law.:suicide:
The alternative will probably be a 45acp ar15.
It can't take an optic. At atlantic arms, it's listed for $989. :eek:
Worst of all, even though it has a 16in barrel, due to its folding stock it is completely illegal in Michigan because of our ****ed up SBR law.:suicide:
The alternative will probably be a 45acp ar15.
Actually it can. Pop over to Uzitalk and find out about side cocking railed top covers. You can also do a fixed stock Uzi.
KalashniKEV
03-28-11, 20:30
Also... side charging optic railed MACs are retarded.
MACs, much like AKs, should be very very simple.
Now hold the phone right there... I wouldn't go and call a side charger "complicated."
The ability to mount an optic and get away from the hole-in-receiver rear sight is a game changer for the MAC series. So is kicking down the rate of fire.
IN FACT if Gordon Ingram sat up in bed one night and thought up Richard Lages design, I believe there would have been much wider adoption. He just wasn't looking to enhance the design so much as economize it.
All that being said, Semi Auto MAC series guns are retarded themselves. You would be MUCH better served with an extended capacity, reliable mag, in a reliable pistol.
All that being said, Semi Auto MAC series guns are retarded themselves. You would be MUCH better served with an extended capacity, reliable mag, in a reliable pistol.
a pistol over a carbine???
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Masterpiece/DSC08712.JPG
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/mpa_460_rowland_carbine-tfb.jpg
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/masterpiece-arms-9300-sst-x-tactical-carbine.jpg
Just buy one Kal, or better yet, two.
lloydkristmas
03-28-11, 21:44
I watched a guy shoot one of the "carbine MACs" at a range once, he fired off about 250 rounds with no issues, but the gun looks so damn stupid I'd honestly be embarrassed to own it.
Unless you just want the MAC style for the hell of it, you'd be better off with a Glock 19 + 33rd mags (instead of the pistol Mac) or a Beretta Storm in .45 (instead of the carbine Mac)
but the gun looks so damn stupid I'd honestly be embarrassed to own it
so we worry about looks now? :suicide:
I'd be more worried about reliability and cheek weld issues.
Unless you just want the MAC style for the hell of it, you'd be better off with a Beretta Storm in .45 (instead of the carbine Mac)
yes but the 45acp storm only takes 1911 mags.
Finding a trust worthy sub $1,000 45acp that has an optics rail and takes grease gun mags, all out of the box without buying aftermarket products to "improve" the firearm, is quite difficult.
TheGreenRanger24
03-28-11, 22:32
yes but the 45acp storm only takes 1911 mags.
Finding a trust worthy sub $1,000 45acp that has an optics rail and takes grease gun mags, all out of the box without buying aftermarket products to "improve" the firearm, is quite difficult.
Um, according to Beretta's website, the .45 storm uses cougar mags.
:secret: http://www.berettausa.com/products/cx4-storm/#tabid_1
Does anyone even make new grease gun mags nowadays?
Um, according to Beretta's website, the .45 storm uses cougar mags
my bad. I had known it used a 7 or 8 round mag and automatically assumed it was 1911 style.
Does anyone even make new grease gun mags nowadays?
nope. I think that's one of the reasons for the poor 45acp hi-cap carbine market.
TheGreenRanger24
03-28-11, 22:45
nope. I think that's one of the reasons for the poor 45acp hi-cap carbine market.
I thought you might have better luck with a tommy gun clone, but their mag's are pretty expensive too . . .
http://www.tommygunshop.com/cgi-bin/itemdetail.asp?itmid=553 :eek:
lloydkristmas
03-28-11, 22:45
There isnt much that shoots .45 with hicapacity mags for a price like the MPA carbine, I'll give you that.
I guess the bigger question is, is it worth buying a potentially unreliable and gimmicky weapon to fill your .45 Carbine niche?
To me, and several others who have chimed in, no. The 9mm sees more benefit from carbine/SMG length barrels than does the .45 anyway.
Your call, I guess. You know what we think.
Here is how I ultimately solved this issue.
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/6407/p1003831ku1.jpg
Of course, many times the effective solution isn't the cheapest solution.
lloydkristmas
03-28-11, 22:56
Here is how I ultimately solved this issue.
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/6407/p1003831ku1.jpg
Of course, many times the effective solution isn't the cheapest solution.
Dammit man youre like that guy who shows up to the local car club with a Lamborghini and instantly reduces everyones penis size throughout the parking lot.
TheGreenRanger24
03-28-11, 23:05
Dammit man youre like that guy who shows up to the local car club with a Lamborghini and instantly reduces everyones penis size throughout the parking lot.
Unless you get to put a few rounds through 'er; then it goes right back up. :p
lloydkristmas
03-28-11, 23:09
Unless you get to put a few rounds through 'er; then it goes right back up. :p
Screw the little blue pills. Dump a couple mags through a select fire H&K and your pants will fit tighter all week.
Back on topic. The MPA carbine sucks.
Lage uppers which reduce the ROF by about half (depending on caliber and configuration) are certainly beneficial. Of course, that doesn't apply to semi-auto garbage guns.
I guess the bigger question is, is it worth buying a potentially unreliable and gimmicky weapon to fill your .45 Carbine niche?
This is the main reason I never bought one. I always had the opportunity to get one ordered but without having the option to examine one in person or get some detailed reviews on the net, I never bothered.
Magic_Salad0892
03-31-11, 14:04
Just to clear this up.
.45 ACP will NOT be accepted.
However.
I am opening up my options for UZI, and Sterling*(2) clones as well as a Skorpion.*
So is Vector Arms the solution for a semi auto UZI? (I kind of want an open bolt full auto though.) It will see a folding stock, and a suppressor. (Which is what I would do on ANY submachine gun.)
I'd like to figure my options out now, before I'm completely in the market, so that I have the time to do the research and be ready for it by the time I have the cash.
Also, MAC carbines, and rails, etc. defeat the MACs purpose. A short quick bullet hose. And I actually really like the sights. :|
Those carbines look retarded.
*I really want a damn MAC clone though.
*(2) A suppressed Sterling would be a car gun candidate.
There is no way to get a Beretta Model 12S is there?
*I really want a damn MAC clone though.
Just buy a fullauto Cobray MAC-11. They can be found all day long for under $3k.
*(2) A suppressed Sterling would be a car gun candidate.
Seriously?
There is no way to get a Beretta Model 12S is there?
Become an FFL/SOT and buy a pre-86 dealer sample. I am sure there are probably a very few transferable 12S in the US, but I've never seen one up for sale. Dan Shea at LMO or one of the other long-time SOTs would be a better resource as to whether they know of any transferable 12S in the registry. Templar, Steyr, or anyone else.....have you guys ever heard of any transferable 12S?
I have a masterpiece in .45acp and it's great fun. I hbe never hand ANY problems with it... Select fire would be neat however it is a felony in my state under any circumstances!
I have ran probably close to 3000 rounds through mine and never a problem!
Templar, Steyr, or anyone else.....have you guys ever heard of any transferable 12S?
Never seen one. I don't think any originals came in prior to 1968, if they did they would be rare and expensive.
There were never any semi auto Title I imports to do a pre86 conversion.
The only way one could exist is as a registered tube build and I've never seen one of those.
Just to clear this up.
.45 ACP will NOT be accepted.
However.
I am opening up my options for UZI, and Sterling*(2) clones as well as a Skorpion.*
So is Vector Arms the solution for a semi auto UZI? (I kind of want an open bolt full auto though.) It will see a folding stock, and a suppressor. (Which is what I would do on ANY submachine gun.)
I'd like to figure my options out now, before I'm completely in the market, so that I have the time to do the research and be ready for it by the time I have the cash.
Also, MAC carbines, and rails, etc. defeat the MACs purpose. A short quick bullet hose. And I actually really like the sights. :|
Those carbines look retarded.
*I really want a damn MAC clone though.
*(2) A suppressed Sterling would be a car gun candidate.
There is no way to get a Beretta Model 12S is there?
I'm moving this to the NFA section, since you're now opening it up to real select fire subguns as well as SBR's.
There's no way to get a Beretta PM-12S, well, no way that's easy or affordable.
Vector select fire transferrable UZI's and Mini UZI's have a better rep than their semi auto closed bolt UZI's. It's really hard to retro engineer an open bolt full auto to a closed bolt weapon. You can pick up a real deal IMI Model A or Model B semi auto UZI for not a whole lot of money.
I'd definitely wave off of the Century semi auto Sterling's. I have a John Andrewski built Sterling Mk.4 on a DLO tube, and it's the cat's ass. You can still find them for around $7K.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31814
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Album%202/New%20Years%20Eve%2012-31-10/IMG_5771.jpg
Powder Springs MAC-10's and Cobray M-11's are still out there, new in the box, and some of the most affordable sub guns out there. If you go that route, while I like the original Powder Springs MAC-10's in 9mm, the Cobray M11 is more versatile as far as accessories.
Not very knowledgeable about the Beretta, but there is a local guy that shoots our subgun match with a transferable Beretta M12.
I do not know the difference, if any, between a M12 and M12s. Next time I see him I will ask. He also gave me a number of how many transferable M12's are in the country.
Not very knowledgeable about the Beretta, but there is a local guy that shoots our subgun match with a transferable Beretta M12.
I do not know the difference, if any, between a M12 and M12s. Next time I see him I will ask. He also gave me a number of how many transferable M12's are in the country.
I'd love to hear the story on that one, because for it to be a transferrable factory SMG it would have had to have been imported before the GCA of 1968.
It could be a dealer sample, or if it truly is transferrable, a kit that got built on a registered tube like a Sten, Sterling, or Swedish K.
Templar- What do you think of SWD M-11/.380's? MAC/RPB M-11/.380's?
Not very knowledgeable about the Beretta, but there is a local guy that shoots our subgun match with a transferable Beretta M12.
I do not know the difference, if any, between a M12 and M12s. Next time I see him I will ask. He also gave me a number of how many transferable M12's are in the country.
Very interesting. I spoke to Doug Oefinger (of DLO) awhile back and he was a fairly big fan of the Beretta M12. If any domestically (ie post-68, but pre-86) made transferables exist, my money is on DLO having made them. Pure speculation on my part.
On another note, anyone notice the transferable Franchi LF57 pre-68 C&R SMG on Sturm? Very tempted by that, but not looking to drop $15k on an obscure SMG at the moment.
Templar- What do you think of SWD M-11/.380's? MAC/RPB M-11/.380's?
It would be one my short list of weapons to use in assaulting someone stuck in a telephone booth (do they even have those anymore?). :D
They're fun, they're expensive to run, they have an absurdly high rate of fire, and they aren't "practical".
But if you want a range toy that's a hell of an attention getter, it's up there on the list.
Magic_Salad0892
04-01-11, 18:26
What does ''registered tube'' mean? It sounds like a sheet metal tube with some SMG parts built in.
Can an integrally suppressed L34A1 clone be built?
(Yes, I'd consider it being a car gun.)
However the Cobray seems more plausible. And compact.
What does ''registered tube'' mean? It sounds like a sheet metal tube with some SMG parts built in.
Can an integrally suppressed L34A1 clone be built?
(Yes, I'd consider it being a car gun.)
However the Cobray seems more plausible. And compact.
Open bolt subguns that use a tubular receiver, like the MP40, Sten, Sterling, Swedish K, were built up as civilian transferrables using a parts kit and a steel tube that had been registered as a machine gun receiver prior to May of 1986.
My Sterling Mk.4 was built using an excellent/unissued parts kit on a DLO purpose built Sterling receiver (not a Sten receiver) by John Andrewski and purchased from Recon Ordnance.
He's also built up some Mk.5 (L34A1) guns, which run about double what the non suppressed Mk.4's run.
I'd love to hear the story on that one, because for it to be a transferrable factory SMG it would have had to have been imported before the GCA of 1968.
It could be a dealer sample, or if it truly is transferable, a kit that got built on a registered tube like a Sten, Sterling, or Swedish K.
I just got off of the phone with the owner's friend and he told me it is original and transferable. We all shoot a local subgun match together and I have seen the weapon. It is one of 2 or 3 transferables in the country, the owner's friend could not remember if it was 2 or 3. I remember the owner telling me the number at the match, but do not remember how many others are in the country other than it was a very low number. The owner has paperwork as far as the history of it.
I will talk to the owner later and see if I can find out more and get a copy of the letter.
It is an original and not a tube gun. I also asked about it being a rewatt and he said no it is original.
I do not know why you have such a hard time believing one was imported prior to the 68 GCA banning the importation of transferable SMG's since the M12 was invented in 1959. Like I wrote before, I am not that familiar with the M12-M12s.
It would be one my short list of weapons to use in assaulting someone stuck in a telephone booth (do they even have those anymore?). :D
They're fun, they're expensive to run, they have an absurdly high rate of fire, and they aren't "practical".
But if you want a range toy that's a hell of an attention getter, it's up there on the list.
Unless it is an A1 and then you can install a Lage upper and shoot 9mm with a 600 -700 rpm cyclic rate.
Go to the site below and look under current products-M11A1,
http://www.max-11.com/
Magic_Salad0892
04-01-11, 18:50
He's also built up some Mk.5 (L34A1) guns, which run about double what the non suppressed Mk.4's run.
Balls in a blender. $14,000? Almost worth it.
MAC it is.
I do not know why you have such a hard time believing one was imported prior to the 68 GCA banning the importation of transferable SMG's since the M12 was invented in 1959. Like I wrote before, I am not that familiar with the M12-M12s.
Because very, very, very, very, very few subguns were imported for US civilian consumption prior to 1968. There was next to no market for it. There might be some pre-1968 transferrable UZI's out there, but I've not seen one, same goes for Swedish Carl Gustav M45 K's.
As you said, 2-3 transferrable in the country....that's museum quality, not something that makes it's way around the community.
Go to the below site. Select match results, then select January 8, 2009. Photos 6-10 are of the owner shooting it.
http://www.azfullauto.com/
ETA: Also try videos 7 and 19 at the bottom of that same page, January 8, 2009 match results.
Balls in a blender. $14,000? Almost worth it.
MAC it is.
I'm posting this link for information purposes only, I have no connection with autoweapons at all.
Andrewski Sterling Mk.5 (http://www.autoweapons.com/photos06/mar/sterlv.html)
Go to the below site. Select match results, then select January 8, 2009. Photos 6-10 are of the owner shooting it.
http://www.azfullauto.com/
Very cool. That's a hell of a unique weapon in the community.
Magic, that would be two tax stamps ($200.00 machine gun, $200.00 suppressor) for a total of $400.00.
The integrally suppressed version was called the L34A1 in UK service and the Mk.5 in international sales.
Recon Ordnance Company
Attn: Jerry Prasser
Specialties: Class 3, Type 10 Destructive Devices
P.O. Box 829
Fond du Lac, WI 54936
Phone: (920) 922-1515
FAX: (920) 922-0737
E-mail: reconord@aol.com
They handled the majority of the Andrewski Sterlings.
Very cool. That's a hell of a unique weapon in the community.
I edited my post above to add:
Also try videos 7 and 19 at the bottom of that same page, January 8, 2009 match results.
http://www.azfullauto.com/
ETA: It may also be a 68 amnesty gun, I do not know. All I know is that I was told it is a transferable gun on a form 4 and it is one of only a few transferables in the country. The owners friend told me 1 of either 2 or 3 in the country.
Magic_Salad0892
04-01-11, 22:20
Thank you, Templar. :)
E-Mailed a friend whose specialty is the Uzi. Below is his response regarding pre-68 transferable Uzi's:
Hi Doug.
I don't know any numbers, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that there are some. I know two people that own them and I've seen others for sale. I think I've heard Dan Shea claim that there's somewhere between 30 and 50, but I think that's just a guess. Whatever the number is, it's small so it's not surprising that this guy hasn't seen one. There are both IMI and FN transferable guns around.
Hope that helps.
Dave
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