View Full Version : Need help on picking a new upper - BCM or KAC?
bullitt5172
03-28-11, 19:28
OK guys, just need some input. I have a complete LaRue lower in need of a new upper. I've narrowed it down to a BCM EAG upper or a KAC SR-15 E3/IWS upper. I want a lightweight, reliable training upper that will be used mainly for training classes. Both are spec'd well and would fit into the role I want. Mainly trying to decide if I want to take on the proprietary parts the KAC or go with the standard middy setup of the BCM.
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-28-11, 19:32
Well I say KAC If you can afford it. Price is the biggest factor for me. If you can afford KAC get KAC in my opnion.
As an SR15 owner I have to go with the KAC, nothing wrong with BCM from what I have heard but I just dont have one so cant say much about them. KAC customer service is excellent too.
I too would go with KAC. On the BCM EAG you will have a pinned FH (unless you have the paperwork). I would rather be able to run whatever FH or Brake I wanted on it.
BCM would be my choice for stated purpose.
First, for training upper I don't see a point of paying extra, especially if less expensive alternative is an excellent one.
Second, training uppers are usually fed training ammo, quality of which is now very variable. KAC traditionally was set up for milspec ammo and there are enough reported instances of KAC not running on less hot civilian training ammo. My two BCMs, on the other hand, eat everything. It should be noted that KAC apparently has opened gas ports on their barrels, but I don't know if this is now a standard for them. Also, you wouldn't know if the upper you're about to buy has smaller or larger port, unless there is a way of figuring when it was made and checking with KAC.
Third, the proprietary parts are not a big deal, IMO; the question is what they offer over regular parts. My understanding is that KAC guarantees their bolts to 20K rounds and some folks run them much longer. However, BCM (mostly from reports from EAG classes) have shown excellent durability, with bolt life up to 16K. Since it is a training upper with catastrophic bolt failure being not a big problem, you can run it all the way until it breaks, without preventative replacement. From that angle, BCM with cheaper replacement parts will likely be more cost-effective in a long run as well.
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-28-11, 20:17
BCM would be my choice for stated purpose.
First, for training upper I don't see a point of paying extra, especially if less expensive alternative is an excellent one.
Second, training uppers are usually fed training ammo, quality of which is now very variable. KAC traditionally was set up for milspec ammo and there are enough reported instances of KAC not running on less hot civilian training ammo. My two BCMs, on the other hand, eat everything. It should be noted that KAC apparently has opened gas ports on their barrels, but I don't know if this is now a standard for them. Also, you wouldn't know if the upper you're about to buy has smaller or larger port, unless there is a way of figuring when it was made and checking with KAC.
Third, the proprietary parts are not a big deal, IMO; the question is what they offer over regular parts. My understanding is that KAC guarantees their bolts to 20K rounds and some folks run them much longer. However, BCM (mostly from reports from EAG classes) have shown excellent durability, with bolt life up to 16K. Since it is a training upper with catastrophic bolt failure being not a big problem, you can run it all the way until it breaks, without preventative replacement. From that angle, BCM with cheaper replacement parts will likely be more cost-effective in a long run as well.
Gee these are some great points to
I would say KAC, but I have become biased after 3 years. Early ones did have issues with smaller gas ports & requiring hotter, mil-spec ammo. That hasn't been an issue for quite some time now. If you pick up a new upper today, especially from Lawmen's, it shouldn't be a concern. My most recent E3 upper was purchased over a year ago and it has run reliably with weak Centurion ammo that used to give me issues with my original E3. My newest one eats everything I have fed it. At a street price between $1200-$1300, including buis, bcg and rail covers, its worth every penny.
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bullitt5172
03-28-11, 20:32
If I go with the KAC it will come straight from them so I'm not too worried about the gas tube. The KAC sure seems to be what I am looking for...damn decisions...
I would go with the KAC. Knight's makes excellent products.
Granted their upper is somewhat proprietary due to different bolt design and mid length style gas system but how often have you heard their upper having a malfunction or breakage of some sorts?
I have shot Knight's rifles and would not hesitate to recommend and use their product.
You mentioned weight as one of your factors. The SR15 will fill that bill quite nicely. I'm not sure what the EAG upper would weigh.
Also, I wouldn't be overly concerned with proprietary parts. Last time I asked, KAC had not had a single case of a commercial SR15 breaking a bolt, not so much as a sheared lug. Hence, their 20K round guaranty. They must be doing something right with that design. There are some guys around here with many more rounds through their SR15's than I have put through mine and I've never seen a single report of a parts failure of any of the "proprietary" parts.
how much difference in price are we talking about?
From readily available sources, BCM is 1175, KAC is 1500. I've not seen KACs for 1200-1300 as somebody stated above, but I haven't really looked. BCM comes with 100 bucks certificate towards a EAG class.
From readily available sources, BCM is 1175, KAC is 1500. I've not seen KACs for 1200-1300 as somebody stated above, but I haven't really looked. BCM comes with 100 bucks certificate towards a EAG class.
There was one in the EE last week, new & unfired for $1200 and I know Lawmens had them on sale for $1300. MSRP for the upper is $1450.
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bullitt5172
03-29-11, 07:11
how much difference in price are we talking about?
For this discussion, let's assume they cost the same amount. I'm not worried about the price difference, just want the best performance.
Belmont31R
03-29-11, 07:26
KAC...My SR15 is the only 5.56 gun I've ever still been interested in after owning a while. I tend to go through different setups, and they come and go for me.
The BCM EAG is a nice gun but the SR15 is that much better. You aren't talking about a huge price difference either, and I think the price difference is easily justified. The URX rail has more features than LaRue, you're getting a much improved bolt design with 20k round warranty, a better barrel profile for weight and speed, little bit longer gas system length for low recoil and smoothness in operation, and my opinion but nicer iron sights as well. Plus you are not going to have to deal with a pinned muzzle device if you ever are in the market for a can.
The gas port sizing had to do with people running weak ammo in the winter. Mine has done fine with every type of ammo I've run through it including steel case stuff even after extended periods of no cleaning and just adding more lube.
bullitt5172
03-29-11, 07:36
KAC...My SR15 is the only 5.56 gun I've ever still been interested in after owning a while. I tend to go through different setups, and they come and go for me.
The BCM EAG is a nice gun but the SR15 is that much better. You aren't talking about a huge price difference either, and I think the price difference is easily justified. The URX rail has more features than LaRue, you're getting a much improved bolt design with 20k round warranty, a better barrel profile for weight and speed, little bit longer gas system length for low recoil and smoothness in operation, and my opinion but nicer iron sights as well. Plus you are not going to have to deal with a pinned muzzle device if you ever are in the market for a can.
The gas port sizing had to do with people running weak ammo in the winter. Mine has done fine with every type of ammo I've run through it including steel case stuff even after extended periods of no cleaning and just adding more lube.
Good, solid info from all. Thanks. I think I'll be ordering the SR15 upper this afternoon!
It's a tough call between two great guns. The SR15 may have a slight weight advantage & I would expect similar reliability between the two. However, I prefer the urx rail and the pinned FH on the BCM is a non starter for me. You really have to handle an SR15 to fully appreciate it.
ETA- bkb summed it up pretty well
Best way to tackle this is to look at the pros and cons of each comparing your stated criterion; weight and reliability. I'll also through out there that longevity, accuracy, and overall cost are probably factors as well. Define each criteria:
Weight - mass (kinda of a no brainer there).
Reliability - the probability that the rifle will fire when the trigger is pulled.
Longevity - length of service life (not the same as reliability, although related).
Accuracy - you'll need to define your accepted level of accuracy but my guess is this is pretty much a wash between the two.
Overall cost - this goes beyond initial purchase price, but should shold also include what it takes to run the gun (think of it like a car, gas, tires, parts replacement). Can you run cheap training ammo reliably? In the "unlikely" event that there's a parts failure, how quickly and affordably can you get the gun back up and running.
Both BCM and KAC make high quality rifles and components. If you're using quality mags and decent ammo, the next most common issue witht he AR platform is the bolt. If you're going to break a bolt it's going to be at a training class. If you don't have a spare bolt, someone else may very well offer to loan you their back-up. The question is will it fit?
ICANHITHIMMAN mentioned the 20K round bolt guarantee from KAC. I'm sure this means that if your bolt fails witin 20K rounds they'll replace it for free. Will they refund you the pro-rated cost of the training course you just had to drop out of because the bolt failed? The bolt may not be likely to fail, and you'd probably NEVER have an issue with it. However, if it's going to fail, it's going to occur during the course. So, make sure to have a back up bolt (for either upper you choose) and factor that into you overall cost.
However, your last post mentioned to assume cost is a wash and that you wanted the "best performer". Both will be relatively light weight, very reliable, accurate, and should last a long time. In my opinion, I'd go with BCM. To me the parts commonality between my other rifles (and the rifles of others) is an important factor. Absolutely nothing against Knight's, I'd love to have one. I just know that if anything short of the receiver breaks on any of my BCM rifles, I can quickly swap out parts as needed and even borrow parts from others if necessary.
Re: bolt failure
KAC has stated that a standard bolt will function in the E3 barrel extension. In a pinch, you could always drop in a standard bolt, but KAC does not recommend it for long term use.
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Belmont31R
03-29-11, 08:16
I seriously doubt you would have to drop out of a class because of a hypothetical bolt break in a KAC, and I would never go to a training class without a complete back up no matter what I was running. Besides from all accounts you will get a gun from somewhere if you need one to finish the class.
The spare bolts for the E3 are pricey....though I've never heard of a single bolt failure even in high round count guns. Not saying it can't happen or hasn't happened but I wouldn't let it get in the way of getting the best gun available. There are many things that can go wrong on an AR. No one bats an eye running a rail with a proprietary wrench...what if your barrel nut comes loose?
The question that needs to be answered, as I see it:
Less expensive but high quality "standard" rifle or more expensive non-standard (proprietary parts) rifle.
Either are fine choices; depends on your POV/intended use.
For this discussion, let's assume they cost the same amount. I'm not worried about the price difference, just want the best performance.
well then I'll have no part in this discussion because what I spend money for is performance. if there are performance differences but can be made up by spending more money till they are roughly equivalent, then the choice boils down to other things.
but if one is neither better nor worse at what it does than the other, and there is a difference in price, then the choice is simple.
Cylinder Head
03-29-11, 10:36
Re: bolt failure
KAC has stated that a standard bolt will function in the E3 barrel extension. In a pinch, you could always drop in a standard bolt, but KAC does not recommend it for long term use.
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That's great info. Did not know that. Pretty much takes out the "proprietary parts" argument as the bolt is the acchilles heel of the AR platform.
bullitt5172
03-29-11, 11:29
well then I'll have no part in this discussion because what I spend money for is performance. if there are performance differences but can be made up by spending more money till they are roughly equivalent, then the choice boils down to other things.
but if one is neither better nor worse at what it does than the other, and there is a difference in price, then the choice is simple.
I think you missed the point, I want the upper that will perform the best. I don't care if it's a few dollars more...so I said which is a better upper based on performance.
ETA - I am agreeing with you. If they both performed the same and one was $300 less, it would indeed be a no-brainer!
Rattlehead
03-29-11, 11:34
I think you missed the point, I want the upper that will perform the best. I don't care if it's a few dollars more...so I said which is a better upper based on performance.
Congratulations on your purchase, you won't regret getting a KAC.
Super lightweight and a low profile.
Interested in seeing what you think of it once you receive it.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure anyone would go with the KAC uppper. I know I would :)
I seriously doubt you would have to drop out of a class because of a hypothetical bolt break in a KAC, and I would never go to a training class without a complete back up no matter what I was running. Besides from all accounts you will get a gun from somewhere if you need one to finish the class.
The spare bolts for the E3 are pricey....though I've never heard of a single bolt failure even in high round count guns. Not saying it can't happen or hasn't happened but I wouldn't let it get in the way of getting the best gun available. There are many things that can go wrong on an AR. No one bats an eye running a rail with a proprietary wrench...what if your barrel nut comes loose?
You are absolutely correct, I was just throwing out a VERY extreme (albeit unlikely) scenario to illustrate the need for a backup. Be that an extra bolt or complete rifle, both of which are a good idea to have. For training purposes I bring two similar rifles and extra "common breakage" parts that could be interchanged into either rifle (an extra bolt, lower springs, pins, etc) and a few basic tools to conduct repairs. I just prefer a commonality of parts for my gear and is just my opinion.
Now if the OP has the scratch, I'd say go with TWO KAC rifles... you know... just in case. ;)
I think you missed the point, I want the upper that will perform the best. I don't care if it's a few dollars more...so I said which is a better upper based on performance.
ETA - I am agreeing with you. If they both performed the same and one was $300 less, it would indeed be a no-brainer!
In fairness, I don't think anybody can say that KAC will "perform" better than BCM. What does "perform" mean? They will likely be equally reliable and equally accurate. In regards to weight, I am not sure KAC will definitely be lighter: it has lighter barrel profile and low-gas block, but BCM will have a shorter barrel with subsequent weight savings there. KAC is known for soft shooting properties, but midlength BCMs are very soft too. Last weekend I put 17 rounds (I don't know how to count) during VTAC 1-5 drill on 5 targets in just over 4 seconds; second time ever I ran that drill. This is with BattleComp, which is an option available when you buy EAG upper.
I don't believe for a second that anybody can say that KAC upper will "outperform" BCM EAG upper with any verifiable performance measurement backing, and I don't believe that this discussion is about performance. If performance is at question, then data from EAG tests, the filthy 14 etc., backs BCM as second to none.
bullitt5172
03-29-11, 12:35
In fairness, I don't think anybody can say that KAC will "perform" better than BCM. What does "perform" mean? They will likely be equally reliable and equally accurate. In regards to weight, I am not sure KAC will definitely be lighter: it has lighter barrel profile and low-gas block, but BCM will have a shorter barrel with subsequent weight savings there. KAC is known for soft shooting properties, but midlength BCMs are very soft too. Last weekend I put 17 rounds (I don't know how to count) during VTAC 1-5 drill on 5 targets in just over 4 seconds; second time ever I ran that drill. This is with BattleComp, which is an option available when you buy EAG upper.
I don't believe for a second that anybody can say that KAC upper will "outperform" BCM EAG upper with any verifiable performance measurement backing, and I don't believe that this discussion is about performance. If performance is at question, then data from EAG tests, the filthy 14 etc., backs BCM as second to none.
This is pretty much why I asked this question. IMO, there are no better uppers (for a battle rifle) on the market than BCM and KAC. If there was really a $300 difference between them I would tend to go towards the BCM as they both meet my "requirements". I have the opportunity to get a KAC upper for the same amount as the BCM and therefore the dicussion of whether or not the KAC offers anything over the BCM if they were the same price. Confusing, yes. Petty, yes. Believe me, I know it's a win/win decision. Just looking for opinions from those who have used these uppers and can give real input.
In all honesty I think these threads are a waste of time and I hate them. Partially because of what you stated. In the end they just keep going round and round like a dog chasing it's tail.
Is there a right answer? Who knows. In the end as long as you are buying some Tier 0 piece of shit I don't think either choice is bad.
In fairness, I don't think anybody can say that KAC will "perform" better than BCM. What does "perform" mean? They will likely be equally reliable and equally accurate. In regards to weight, I am not sure KAC will definitely be lighter: it has lighter barrel profile and low-gas block, but BCM will have a shorter barrel with subsequent weight savings there. KAC is known for soft shooting properties, but midlength BCMs are very soft too. Last weekend I put 17 rounds (I don't know how to count) during VTAC 1-5 drill on 5 targets in just over 4 seconds; second time ever I ran that drill. This is with BattleComp, which is an option available when you buy EAG upper.
I don't believe for a second that anybody can say that KAC upper will "outperform" BCM EAG upper with any verifiable performance measurement backing, and I don't believe that this discussion is about performance. If performance is at question, then data from EAG tests, the filthy 14 etc., backs BCM as second to none.
Belmont31R
03-29-11, 12:42
In fairness, I don't think anybody can say that KAC will "perform" better than BCM. What does "perform" mean? They will likely be equally reliable and equally accurate. In regards to weight, I am not sure KAC will definitely be lighter: it has lighter barrel profile and low-gas block, but BCM will have a shorter barrel with subsequent weight savings there. KAC is known for soft shooting properties, but midlength BCMs are very soft too. Last weekend I put 17 rounds (I don't know how to count) during VTAC 1-5 drill on 5 targets in just over 4 seconds; second time ever I ran that drill. This is with BattleComp, which is an option available when you buy EAG upper.
I don't believe for a second that anybody can say that KAC upper will "outperform" BCM EAG upper with any verifiable performance measurement backing, and I don't believe that this discussion is about performance. If performance is at question, then data from EAG tests, the filthy 14 etc., backs BCM as second to none.
Actually Filthy 14 has broken at least one bolt, and has had others replaced. In the TE testing KAC has done they have gone much further on a single bolt than the EAG testing on the BCM gun. http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf
You'd have to look up the specific posts from KAC about their bolt longevity if you want to read it yourself.
Ive owned both (still own the SR15), and the KAC is a slightly smoother shooting gun.
Actually Filthy 14 has broken at least one bolt, and has had others replaced. In the TE testing KAC has done they have gone much further on a single bolt than the EAG testing on the BCM gun. http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf
You'd have to look up the specific posts from KAC about their bolt longevity if you want to read it yourself.
.
Yes, I am aware of that, see my above post re 16K BCM bolt life. With $300 to $70 replacement bolt price ratio, KAC bolt has to go over 64000 rounds to be cost effective, unless KAC replaces it at any point of bolt's life.
This is pretty much why I asked this question. IMO, there are no better uppers (for a battle rifle) on the market than BCM and KAC. If there was really a $300 difference between them I would tend to go towards the BCM as they both meet my "requirements". I have the opportunity to get a KAC upper for the same amount as the BCM and therefore the dicussion of whether or not the KAC offers anything over the BCM if they were the same price. Confusing, yes. Petty, yes. Believe me, I know it's a win/win decision. Just looking for opinions from those who have used these uppers and can give real input.
If you're getting them for the same price, I'd go with KAC. I don't believe it'll necessarily give you better performance, but I think it'll give you more versatility and maybe better feature set, depending on user's preference. I, for example, do not like FSBs and prefer low-pro gas blocks etc. Again, to me it is more of a feature set than performance discussion.
In all honesty I think these threads are a waste of time and I hate them. Partially because of what you stated. In the end they just keep going round and round like a dog chasing it's tail.
Is there a right answer? Who knows. In the end as long as you are buying some Tier 0 piece of shit I don't think either choice is bad.
I agree with you 100%, these "which is best threads" get old real quick and there are a lot of them on here anymore.
Belmont31R
03-29-11, 13:07
Yes, I am aware of that, see my above post re 16K BCM bolt life. With $300 to $70 replacement bolt price ratio, KAC bolt has to go over 64000 rounds to be cost effective, unless KAC replaces it at any point of bolt's life.
Part of the reason KAC came up with the bolt is to reduce parts wear and breakage like what Filthy 14 went through. Not saying BCM doesn't make some of the best stuff out there...just that what happened to that gun is normal. The E3 bolt addresses the normal failure points of an AR bolt. If you don't think its "worth" the additional cost then thats fine...but one is better than the other performance wise which is why KAC can put such a high round count warranty on it.
That does make sense.
Part of the reason KAC came up with the bolt is to reduce parts wear and breakage like what Filthy 14 went through. Not saying BCM doesn't make some of the best stuff out there...just that what happened to that gun is normal. The E3 bolt addresses the normal failure points of an AR bolt. If you don't think its "worth" the additional cost then thats fine...but one is better than the other performance wise which is why KAC can put such a high round count warranty on it.
bullitt5172
03-29-11, 14:12
I agree with you 100%, these "which is best threads" get old real quick and there are a lot of them on here anymore.
I'm sorry, I thought this forum was to talk about guns.
If I was a noob and asked if I should buy a HiPoint or a LWRC I would agree with you. I have narrowed my search to two specific carbine uppers and wanted pro's and con's of each. Sorry this was a waste of your time ;)
Everyone else, thanks. I'll be ordering a KAC. You can close this thread so no one else ruins their day reading it :suicide2:
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