View Full Version : Why all the hate for 20" rifles?
Seems like everyone and their mother has or wants a carbine these days and whenever the inevitable, rehashed comparison comes up guys end up dogging the shit out of the A2/A4. I understand that carbines have their role but I don't kick in doors for a living and I don't have to dismount from a vehicle so maybe I'm just not seeing the 5" less of rifle (stock fully extended, where I shoot from) being that much more advantageous for the civilian population. Maybe it's just the "cool guy" factor or maybe I'm just thinking about it to much. :p
Seems like everyone and their mother has or wants a carbine these days and whenever the inevitable, rehashed comparison comes up guys end up dogging the shit out of the A2/A4. I understand that carbines have their role but I don't kick in doors for a living and I don't have to dismount from a vehicle so maybe I'm just not seeing the 5" less of rifle (stock fully extended, where I shoot from) being that much more advantageous for the civilian population. Maybe it's just the "cool guy" factor or maybe I'm just thinking about it to much. :p
There is nothing wrong with a 20", but a 16" weapon is just a more versatile length. This is why you see it being more popular.
C4
I love shooting my A2 much more than the M4. I double my accuracy with the sight radius.
There's definitely not hate for the A2 from my end! :)
Pat_Rogers
09-24-07, 11:15
Perhaps another way of looking at it is this- What advantage does an M16A4 have over an M4?
From a practical standpoint, the answer is nothing.
While sight radius is an issue to those with legacy sights, it isn't for those with optics.
Range? Not hardly.
Terminal ballistics? Possibly, but slight.
Among those i work with, A2's/A4's are known as fence posts. Probably for a reason.
But maybe a question to be answered by you is this- what is it used for?
For me it's a question of gaining nothing with 4" additional barrel length, and losing the ability to close the stock in for squared-off shooting.
The Archangel
09-24-07, 11:18
My 20" served me well in Iraq. No hate there, just prefer my 10.5", 14.5", 16" & 18". :D
No hate here, I like them both.
Keith
Among those i work with, A2's/A4's are known as fence posts. Probably for a reason.
True. After spending any appreciable time with the M4, the A2 is a pretty big stick.
But the A2 is still one of my favorites for 200-300 yard recreational gong ringing.
ETA: It's kinda like driving a Lincoln Town Car. It's nice to drive sometimes, but for day to day practicality it's not optimal.
From 10.5" to 20" I prefer the 10.5". 14.5" - 16.1" is likely the best overall compromise and user friendly for various reasons, but you have to consider your needs and usage - that's really all that matters.
dwhitehorne
09-24-07, 13:26
I'm issued a M16A1 at work and I like it. It goes in the trunk and most of my patrol area is outside. I went to active shooter training last week and did the walk throughs with an A1. When we switched over to simunitions the guns were all carbines. It was much easier to move around the abandoned hospital we were training in. I love the 20 inch barrel on the range, but I see the benifits of the carbine. David
toddackerman
09-24-07, 13:46
No hate here. I just prefer the convenience of a shorter barreled system. It does everything I want it to do without the extra weight, or length to slow me down. I'm always looking to take off weight. Yeah...around my "Mid Section" as well. :)
If I were to want to shoot NM or longer distances than 250 yds. I'd increase my barrel length.
C'mon man...Try it "Shorter"!
Tack
This weapon is getting me buy for now... About as cheap quality upper you can buy... the upper was $200
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/98/0924070913ayt4.jpg
* A1 Colt C MP Chrome Bore Upper
* MPI Bolt
* Magpul 93a Stock w/ Steel Enforcement
* McCormick 2nd Gen 3.5lbs Trigger
* A2 upgrades
ETC...
that said... its a great rifle as it is... but i'm going to be selling it once I get my 16" build complete! :D
I've got both rifle and carbines and I still like to use my rifle every now and then when shooting at longer distances.
But my carbines are used most of the time because I don't need the extra length and weight of my rifle and carbines are great for close defense.
14.5" - 16.1" is likely the best overall compromise and user friendly for various reasons, but you have to consider your needs and usage - that's really all that matters.
I guess that's about as clear as it's gonna get. I'm of the mindset to get the right tool for the job, "general purpose" means nothing to me. In true AR fashion having a couple "niche" uppers would be the hot ticket. I guess I was directing the post towards those that think 20" guns are about useless unless it's a varmint rig.
I guess I was directing the post towards those that think 20" guns are about useless unless it's a varmint rig.
Aren't they :D
To me if you want a 20" barrel - your probably best served with an increase in calibre as well.
I base all this based on my background - so those who dont think of their weapons as a fighting tool this wont apply too.
Pat, we call the rifles Muskets ;) - and for the reason you cannot effectively bring them to bear in a complex environment, as such for our current needs they are outdated tech.
I appricate that KD shooters appreciate the extra MV and sight radius - but for a fighting gun - the 14.5-16" gun is the best compromise (and everything is a compromise like it or not) for a general purpose system.
Its likley just a divergent mindset -- I practise at home with the same type of weapons I use here. IF I end up in a home defence situation - an M4 carbine will serve me a lot better than an A2 as well...
To me if you want a 20" barrel - your probably best served with an increase in calibre as well.
My thoughts exactly. If I'm going to deal with a bigger and heavier gun, I'd like a bigger and heavier bullet to go with it.:D
I prefer 20" rifles for most use but I still have my 16" Dissapater Bushmaster which is my first personal owned AR15 and I have a 16" carbine for three gun match shooting.
I may rebarrel my 16" carbine with a 14.5 M4 barrel and permanent install a Phantom in the next few months or so.
The rifle I have been using the most has a 20" government profile 1 in 9 twist Bushmaster barrel, flat top, and a MagPul CRT collapser.
Good compromise rifle.
Pat_Rogers
09-24-07, 17:40
Kevin- you are 100% on the mark. The 20" bbl, long stock and match type irons are a tribute to the Rifle Team, which has contributed nothing at all to the L/Cpls that are the real killers.
That legacy has prevented the Marine Corps from moving forward, rather then being locked into a belt fed mentality.
In 1999, a SSgt communicator from 1stForce outshot the rest of the Company while using an M4A1.
The 14.5" gun does everything a 20" gun does, only in a better package.
If i want a longer barrel, i'll take it with a wider bore.
For the record, i consider an M16A2/A4 to be generally, useless.
Then again, all the 20" hatin' here may be caused by the fact the forum is called M4Carbine.net,,,,,,,,:D
Boy I hope this place doesn't degenerate into another version of arfcom
I really like the 10.5", 14.5" and 16" barrels because they allow me to use a suppressor and still keep everything in a relatively compact package. An A2/A4 with a suppressor??? Now THAT is a fence post.
I dont generally "hate" inanimate objects, unless of course we're speaking in the ghetto sense of the word hate, as in the opposite of "showing love" for something. In that case I guess I am a 20" AR "hater"....:rolleyes:
For me its really quite simple why I have no use for a 20" AR platform. My time is spent in vehicles and buildings, with generally short trips between the two. The shorter guns can be deployed much more positively in those environments.
If the day comes when that changes then maybe the thought will occur to me that I want a longer gun. But then again, as Kevin just stated, if Im going to be carrying a telephone pole size gun, I want it in 7.62 NATO.
I guess it completely depends on the application. KevinB, for example, will have a whole different requirement than the next guy. When I get out on foot, in the hills or whatever, I'll definitely opt for the A2. In that environment, I'm not in and out of a vehicle or structure, etc. And the extended accuracy range is a little beneficial.
I don't own any 7.62 rifles. (I hope that's not unAmerican:eek: ) I streamlined them off since 95% of any rifle/carbine activity I'm involved in is 5.56. And I got sick of stocking a second stash of mags, ammo, pouches, etc.
There are a great many officers and agencies deploying 20" barreled guns on patrol. Shorter guns are indeed more size efficient, but the 20" barrels aren't without utility when their liabilities are understood and mitigated. Sub-optimal, but not automatically a poor choice. And certainly, better than nothing.
These would be my order of preference:
1) 16
2) 14.5
3) 20
4) 11.5
Pat_Rogers
09-25-07, 11:05
Skintop- you are correct there.
I believe that the reason there are so many 20" AR's in cop cars is that is what they get from the 1033 program.
Many agencies convert them to carbine length quickly.
Issues with this length gun surface early. I inderstan CHP has a very specific way that the AR needs to be removed from the rack due to clearence issues.
Arcadis CA PD uses Colt Commandos, and their cars are set up so the driver can unlock the rack, sling the gun and charge it to Condition 1 all while seated. They exit the car with the gun good to go.
Of course Dean Caputo is a real deal guy.
A 20" gun that is in the trunk or requires a kabuki dance to retrieve isn't of much use, but that is an issue of training and bean counters who don't care, and not always the gun.
I still have some A!'s (for nostalgia sake) and A2/ A4 around for rental to those who need them, but a 12.5 Noveske and a 10.5 Larue can (as well as a CQBR, Commando, BCM 11.5) outshoot about anything else in the toolbox out to the 150/ 200m end of the spectrum.
Having had to carry M1 and M14 rifles, as well as M16A1 and A2, the Car15's,
M4A1's and CQBR's were easier to handle, deploy and shoot accurately then the fence poles.
These would be my order of preference:
1) 16
2) 14.5
3) 20
4) 11.5
I'd swap 1) and 2). My favorite is the 14.5. Other than that I agree.
If I thought I still had a use for a 20" "fence-post" I would still have one.... I don't... I now have a 16" and a 15.5" carbine....
I carried one long enough.... :mad:
CarlosDJackal
09-25-07, 21:19
Many moons ago, when I had to hump an M-16A1, I had a alot of instances where I was wishing that I had a rifle with a shorter barrel. It's not that I have a hate for a 20-inch AR; it's just that I do not have a use for one (except for my CMP rifle).
Skintop- you are correct there.
I believe that the reason there are so many 20" AR's in cop cars is that is what they get from the 1033 program.
Many agencies convert them to carbine length quickly.
Quite right, Pat.
A surprising number of them still endure in some places.
The conversions to carbine length have generated much useful information. Many try to do it on the cheap, adding ecomony uppers to their free lowers, and frustrate themselves.
I admit to having a 20" Colt that I built into an SPR, just because - it was gathering dust and I had no desire to rid myself of it. It's a fine weapon to shoot from a bench at 200 yds. +, but that's not my thing. 16" weapons get regular use as training tools, because they're essentially set-up exactly like my fighting tools and I don't have to bother with NFA paperwork traveling state to state. 10.5" and 11.5" Noveske's will do everything I need them to do from CQB to 200 yds. as long as I provide regular maintenance accordingly. Add a suppressor and they're still coming in just under 16". Any extra barrel length just gets in the way - vehicles and hallways are simply a pain with longer barrels. However, I recommend my students stick to 14.5" - 16.1" for most usage. Like Pat says, they'll do everything the longer weapon does, but in a better package.
You get in this Catch-22 with a gun that may or may not run (el cheapo upper on a Colt Gov't sale lower) or a gun that you can't deploy (full sized rifle in the truck).
I've seen a few of those DRMO 16s in class. One still had the A1 upper on it, but the Auto sear was pulled. The other was an instructors. He was running a 10.5" upper on it.
dwhitehorne
09-26-07, 11:31
Quite right, Pat.
A surprising number of them still endure in some places.
The conversions to carbine length have generated much useful information. Many try to do it on the cheap, adding ecomony uppers to their free lowers, and frustrate themselves.
Yes our department fields the A1's. They were free with three 20 round Adventure line mags. Mine was built in 1972. Everyhing for us is a money issue. We had the rifles for about 2 years before the white shirts decided to issue them out. The brass wanted to convert them to semi only until they found out it cost money. Everyone has bitched for 4 years about getting carbine uppers. The detectives that were issued rifles convinced their boss to buy carbine uppers for them. Someone decided to get Oly uppers with A2 sights. Probably the least expensive they could find. We walk a fine line complaining about the 20" rifles in patrol. I think they are useless in the trunk on a felony stop, but they are a tool that I was really surprised we were issued. The patrol officers in the city don't have any long guns. I usually have a rifle and shotgun in the car. I will say, I love stopping traffic and pulling my rifle out of the trunk to destroy a deer and watching the look on people's faces. Sorry to get off topic. David
Someone decided to get Oly uppers with A2 sights. Probably the least expensive they could find.
That is ridiculous! I'd rather suffer the 20 inch barrel than risk my butt with some hunk of shit OLY upper. :mad:
Mark -yeah, thats a serious issue - a lot of the Brass, (and as noticed in Rob's thread on the "spec weapons" a lot of shooters too) dont understand the advantages to a properly built weapon system.
-
KiloSierra
09-26-07, 13:15
Mark -yeah, thats a serious issue - a lot of the Brass, (and as noticed in Rob's thread on the "spec weapons" a lot of shooters too) dont understand the advantages to a properly built weapon system.
-
Then you have the Brass who will turn down free weapons(1033 program) because they don't want to fill out the paperwork(and yes, that's the real reason), then buy 11.5" Bushmaster's, and 2 cases of Wolf ammo. I tried to get them to buy Colt's or the 1033 guns(and convert rifles to carbines for half the price of new guns, if they couldn't get carbines).
Pat_Rogers
09-26-07, 13:51
Skintop- i often refer to a SWAT team that had 2 1033 guns but wanted M4's. The beancounters determined that DPMS was the way to go. It wasn't.
They bought two uppers and 5 complete guns. I've related this story a lot, as it is a not so shining example on how not to do it.
Buy cheap, buy twice.
Or, a NE SP tac team that asked for 28 M4's. They got 28 bushamsters instead. That didn't work either.
What really surprised me about the USMC's switch to the A4 was retaining the A2 stock. I'm not arguing that the A4 is in any way handier than the M4, but if we insisted about sticking w/ the 20" platform we could have gone to a collapsing or at least A1 stock.
Part of the reasoning was financial too. My Bn Gunner explained at length about accelerated wear on carbines and how this was a factor in the decision. when I say "wear" I'm tlking on the corporate level - not wear that any one end user would notice.
I would like an M4, but if i were issued an A2/A4, I would try to ditch the stock.
Grin Reaper
09-26-07, 18:34
Then again, all the 20" hatin' here may be caused by the fact the forum is called M4Carbine.net,,,,,,,, :D Ya beat me to it.
Robb Jensen
09-27-07, 07:46
In the last two days I just got my fence post/musket back to together. It's a frankengun mostly from parts I had and a barrel one of my customers gave me.
20" Delton chrome lined 1x9 barrel
AK Concepts DNTC
RAS 5 rail
Rock River upper receiver
Colt carry handle
Colt charging handle w/Badger gen2 latch
BCM BCG
PWA lower
ACE stock
Magpul MIAD grip
I sprayed it with tan and black Norrells moly, like a knucklehead I lost the roll pin for the rear sight so I have to order another one.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/fencepost005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/fencepost006.jpg
I had a 24" RRA upper for awhile, now that was a musket!
toddackerman
09-27-07, 09:00
GotM4...
Sweet looking "Fence Post"!
Tack
GotM4...
Sweet looking "Fence Post"!
Tack
We can start another Black Rifle Forum.... "FencePost.com" :D
BushmasterFanBoy
09-27-07, 20:56
Is there any use at all, any hypothetical situation where the 20" can do something a 14.5/16" can't?
condition 1
09-28-07, 08:21
Is there any use at all, any hypothetical situation where the 20" can do something a 14.5/16" can't?
small bore rifle match.
Is there any use at all, any hypothetical situation where the 20" can do something a 14.5/16" can't?
Better sight radius. I can cut my group sizes in half with the A2 sight radius.
You might be able to accomplish the same thing by using an ACOG on an M4, but that a thousand dollars and you're stuck with magnification.
Nope. I won the Canadian CFSAC/NSCC 300m Deliberate summer 2004 with a 16" gun, and another won the 500m with a 16". The agg was won by a 16" shooter too.
Edit - I'm talking about optics - I dont view irons only as viable in this day and age.
condition 1
09-28-07, 09:14
Nope. I won the Canadian CFSAC/NSCC 300m Deliberate summer 2004 with a 16" gun, and another won the 500m with a 16". The agg was won by a 16" shooter too.
Edit - I'm talking about optics - I dont view irons only as viable in this day and age.
yes sir , I know it can be done with a 16 inch, I have shot 4-5 inch groups @ 300 yrds with a 16 inch colt A2 sporter & old colt 3x scope, I should have said ,small bore "service" rifle matches, sorry , and yes times have changed, its about time too..... by the way good shooting .
Pat_Rogers
09-28-07, 09:45
I view iron sights as something i use on my pistol (for now) and on the long gun, similar to a Reserve Parachute or a low profile spare tire on your car.
I'm even going to optics on my shotguns now (except for the breachers gun.)
I don't buy into the extended sight radius stuff either. I have seen way to many Shooters using M4A1 Carbines run circles around those using M16A2's to consider it to be much of an issue. It is the singer, not the song.
I have been doing this for more then a week. The only time I ever see A2/ A4's are those poor Marines, and they are at a major disadvantage with those long, bulky guns with 4x optics.
If your mission requirement is to take the cased gun out of the trunk and carry it to a covered firing point, and shoot off of a bench- have at it.
Others have jobs that require they be able to have a weapon available at those distances where figts occur, and under circumstances that are different from yours.
Remember that what is good/ bad for you may have absolutely nothing to do with what others use guns for.
yes sir , I know it can be done with a 16 inch, I have shot 4-5 inch groups @ 300 yrds with a 16 inch colt A2 sporter & old colt 3x scope
Indeed. The 16" is no less accurate. I'm talking Irons to Irons however... without magnification. For me, the 20" barrel sight radius allows me to shoot 1.75 MOA on a good day. But on the Carbine radius, I probably average 4 MOA at 100 yards.
I don't know what causes it, but looking through the 20" sight radius brings the target into better focus when I concentrate on the tip of the front sight post.
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