View Full Version : Martial Arts
manderson2228
03-29-11, 09:27
I hope this is the right place to put this, mods move it if you need to. Looking to start taking some martial arts to get in a good workout while also learning some hand to hand techniques. I am completely overwhelmed at the sheer number of "styles".. Was leaning towards Krav Maga due to it's no BS approach to winning fights, but I am open. Any and all advice or recommendation is appreciated.
For those of you who might be in the Atlanta area can you recommend any specific gyms you like or have heard good things about?
I recently picked up Systema as a martial art. I am only on my 6th or 7th session but I can tell you it is fantastic. My instructor took Krav Maga while he served in the IDF and teaches Kapap which is another Israeli fighting style I believe.
One main point I like about Systema is that it concentrates on tension and breathing as the principles of fighting. My instructor showed us first hand through a stress drill how Systema can be more effective, especially when you have multiple attackers. Krav Maga concentrates on explosive punches and movements, while Systema concentrates on fighting relaxed which takes alot less energy.
It seems like giberish and it's pretty hard to explain in a believable manner though. I prefer Systema, but I haven't even been into martial arts very long. Some people prefer certain methods for different reasons though. Your best bet would be to check out any local martial art dojos that you maybe interested in. I am sure the instructor wouldn't mind letting you watch at least or possibly getting a feel for it.
There are just too many martial arts to begin with though...
Hope this helps,
-Brandon
It can be hard to find genuine martial arts instruction in this day and age. The reality is true and effective martial arts training is not terribly impressive to watch, difficult and the training is monotonous. And almost nobody wants to pay money for that experience so real schools are not commercially successful.
But people will pay for instruction in impressive stylistic or gymnastic mimicries of combat, especially if they are constantly told how awesome they are, have a cool uniform and get their very own black belt in short order. It makes no difference that they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, they have a cool certificate for their wall.
Also be aware that whatever is popular is whatever is exploited. For every decent and legitimate school of Krav Maga, Jujutsu, Gung Fu, Kickboxing or Mixed Eclectic there will be ten completely worthless schools claiming to teach those systems.
The best bet is to simply find something that isn't completely hokey that is affordable and close enough to you that you attend regularly. Then even if the school isn't exactly in line with your preferred focus, you can adjust your own training accordingly.
The tournament competitor, the forms expert and the serious fighter essentially all do pretty much the same punches, blocks, kicks and take downs but the manner in which they train and drill and the level of application they train to achieve are what separates one from the other.
I'd strongly recommend the following books:
Zen in the Martial Arts by Joe Hyams
Living the Martial Way : A Manual for the Way a Modern Warrior Should Think by Forrest E. Morgan
Bruce Lee's Fighting Method: Vol 1-4 by Bruce Lee
They will greatly assist you in your personal training regardless of school or style that you choose.
memphisjim
04-07-11, 03:23
im from the school of thought that
only real experience is a true teacher
but you can certainly learn techniques and spar to assist
but its not like the real thing
for instance look at professional mma a majority of the elite fighters have a wrestling background this isnt because wrestling is that great a style its because its a competition based learning process these guys have wrestled 100's of times all out so they have a feel for it and know what works
QuickStrike
04-07-11, 04:50
Even though Bruce Lee was a so-so actor IMO... he was a pretty serious student of scrappin'.
The guy thought that a person who would take up boxing and wrestling (submission wrasslin' like Gene Lebell's stuff) would be VERY dangerous in a relatively short period of time.
If one notices how mma is today, it looks like he is mostly right.
Another awesome combination would be MT/BJJ.
Depends on what you like, find a place with decent active fighters and try it out. Be it a boxing gym or mma place.
I would avoid infomercial type ninja shit. If you want to get good at anything, you must pay and sacrifice, and realistic sparring is a must.
im from the school of thought that
only real experience is a true teacher
but you can certainly learn techniques and spar to assist
but its not like the real thing
I disagree. Experience from what? Picking bar fights? lol
Repetitions of good techniques ===> turns into reflexes that will save your bacon when the fight doesn't go your way (similar to shooting right?).
And just like shooting, proper stand-up/ground work is unnatural as hell. People don't naturally throw straight punches, or hold and aim controlled explosions in their hands.
If one desires to do better than crappy off-balanced haymakers and awkward grabbing, solid instruction will help.
Valid techniques + physical condition + mental condition = Mofreakin' Chuck Norris! :cool:
Cylinder Head
04-07-11, 08:05
This is the one area on this forum that I can consider myself having any level of expertise. I've taken some form of fight training/martial arts since I was 10 (I'm 30 now, we're talking 20 years at this point).
I took Karate/Kendo/Judo for 10 years, but it didn't help me very much in street fights (I was a scrappy, skinny kid who got picked on a lot). I am a black belt in Koei Kan Karate and I can tell you that I've learned more from watching Anderson Silva film than anything I learned in karate.
Kicks look cool in the UFC but you won't be throwing many in the street. I've landed one effective kick in a fight, ever. Striking styles like Krav are cool in practice but you're rarely going to find a willing participant in a street fight to stand there while you shove a bladed hand into their neck. Krav is not going to get you fast, and it's not going to get you in shape to fight. Remember that the guys in the IDF who are taking Krav are already in great shape, and are already trained to kill. They are not Joe Schmoe walking in from the street. Chokes are great but most ground styles like jiu jitsu get very ugly in the street unless you are high level.
I'd go as far as to say that most martial arts are a sham and completely useless in practice. They all need to be adapted to the street heavily to be effective, so why not learn a technique that definitively applies to the street?
You want to learn how to scrap and get in to great shape?? Join a boxing gym. Boxing is the single most effective striking style out there, period. I trained at Lou Duva's gym in Fairfield, NJ for a year and a half, four days a week, and learned more about footwork, balance and real world effective technique than in anything else.
Your hands turn into rocks, and when you take off those 16 ounce gloves your hand speed is incredible. When someone throws a punch at you, you're going to instinctively move out of the way (and not throw up some ridiculous arm block like karate would have you do). Boxing put me in the best shape of my life and I would recommend it to anyone.
Wrestling has been mentioned as well, and I'd also highly recommend it though my experience there is limited. Being able to control your opponent is the key to winning.
[Bruce Lee] thought that a person who would take up boxing and wrestling (submission wrasslin' like Gene Lebell's stuff) would be VERY dangerous in a relatively short period of time.
If one notices how mma is today, it looks like he is mostly right.
Another awesome combination would be MT/BJJ.
Depends on what you like, find a place with decent active fighters and try it out. Be it a boxing gym or mma place.
Valid techniques + physical condition + mental condition = Mofreakin' Chuck Norris! :cool:
QuickStrike hit the nails here.
You have to wonder, when you are being taught, or training a particular move, how it would fare against EVAN (Enemy, bigger Volume, Armed or Numbers). Because, that is the situation when you would be attacked (They think they can beat you).
You have to remember that sometimes your partner has to be non-compliant... Sometimes, particularly with locks, we train in a way that is not realistic: we do small, slow movements. The reality is explosive, sudden moves, in a way that EVAN cannot counter.
Sometimes, you have to strike hard prior to performing a technique, otherwise EVAN can resist...
As CylinderHead pointed, gound fight in the street can get pretty ugly. We had several JJ black belts beaten (or shot) to death in Rio de Janeiro (I lived there for ~6 yrs).
Remember, when you are there grappling with one guy, his friends are there, hitting you with pipes, 2x4s, chains, whatever... That's EVAN
Unfortunately, training locks full speed is something we seldom do, because of the high rate of serious injuries.
Also, a kick to side of the knee is a fight finisher. I recieved one in a slow demonstration of a technique and tore the ligament. I did lay down for 5 minutes, unable to stand. Done in a full blow it is devastating.
I would also recomend some FMA, probably Silat Look for PCK instructors (http://www.pckinternational.com/pck_instructors) in your area. I have trained with Jerry Jacobs, he is an outstanding guy.
The thing with FMA (silat in that particular) is that you have the mindset of multiple attackers, you do not stay there struggling with one guy, you apply devastating blows to him and go to another one.
However, in a SD scenario, that may put you in a severe liability case.
Read some of Marc McYoung stuff (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/)
That EVAN concept is something taken from Kombato (http://www.kombato.org), which I've been training and teaching in the last few years.
This is the one area on this forum that I can consider myself having any level of expertise. I've taken some form of fight training/martial arts since I was 10 (I'm 30 now, we're talking 20 years at this point).
I took Karate/Kendo/Judo for 10 years, but it didn't help me very much in street fights (I was a scrappy, skinny kid who got picked on a lot). I am a black belt in Koei Kan Karate and I can tell you that I've learned more from watching Anderson Silva film than anything I learned in karate.
Kicks look cool in the UFC but you won't be throwing many in the street. I've landed one effective kick in a fight, ever. Striking styles like Krav are cool in practice but you're rarely going to find a willing participant in a street fight to stand there while you shove a bladed hand into their neck. Krav is not going to get you fast, and it's not going to get you in shape to fight. Remember that the guys in the IDF who are taking Krav are already in great shape, and are already trained to kill. They are not Joe Schmoe walking in from the street. Chokes are great but most ground styles like jiu jitsu get very ugly in the street unless you are high level.
I'd go as far as to say that most martial arts are a sham and completely useless in practice. They all need to be adapted to the street heavily to be effective, so why not learn a technique that definitively applies to the street?
You want to learn how to scrap and get in to great shape?? Join a boxing gym. Boxing is the single most effective striking style out there, period. I trained at Lou Duva's gym in Fairfield, NJ for a year and a half, four days a week, and learned more about footwork, balance and real world effective technique than in anything else.
Your hands turn into rocks, and when you take off those 16 ounce gloves your hand speed is incredible. When someone throws a punch at you, you're going to instinctively move out of the way (and not throw up some ridiculous arm block like karate would have you do). Boxing put me in the best shape of my life and I would recommend it to anyone.
Wrestling has been mentioned as well, and I'd also highly recommend it though my experience there is limited. Being able to control your opponent is the key to winning.
I mostly agree. When I used to be a PAL instructor I taught Chinese Boxing. One of the things I always did was cross train my guys with the gym boxers. Unlike 95% of "martial artists" boxers actually hit each other. I don't even want to think about all the black belts I know who have never actually been punched in the face one time but believe they are prepared for a fight.
By bringing the Chinese boxers up to the training level of the other boxers they became far more effective. I think this is also the primary reason the MMA has become so popular, it is just a case of people with a martial artists arsenal of techniques training to a higher standard like that of a boxer.
The only part I disagree on is the "hands turn to rocks" thing. This is a weak link for most boxers. They don't condition their hands but at the same time they are capable of generating incredible power. I know more than a few who got into real fights and broke hands and fingers when they used unprotected fists for the first time. During our cross training we had several guys who adopted our hand conditioning techniques. This is one of the areas where real martial artist have an advantage.
Remember, when you are there grappling with one guy, his friends are there, hitting you with pipes, 2x4s, chains, whatever... That's EVAN
Unfortunately, training locks full speed is something we seldom do, because of the high rate of serious injuries.
Every style by definition has limitations otherwise it is no longer "that style" and even "concept arts" like JKD still have some defining parameters otherwise every person in the world could rightfully call themselves a JKD practitioner.
And as a result of those definitions and limitations, each one can fail under the right circumstances. Boxing/striking methods become almost useless when the fight goes to the ground. Grappling methods are vulnerable at long range and almost useless against multiple opponents (as you noted) and long range striking/kicking methods become almost useless in tight confines like a public restroom.
This is why serious martial artists try to study and practice in all ranges and against a wide variety of styles.
Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai. You have to know what to do if/when the fights hits the ground. Also, both are great workouts. Just be prepared to be bruised and sore. It's a fact of life if you are training the way you should. I still don't like walking around with a bruised eye; looks like you may have taken an ass whippin'.:D
Another here for Thai Boxing and BJJ.
There are MMA gyms in just about every city in America, OP. Find one in yours, they'll teach you the essential techniques. The plum, knees, elbows, blood chokes and common joint locks are just about all you need.
Every style by definition has limitations otherwise it is no longer "that style" and even "concept arts" like JKD still have some defining parameters otherwise every person in the world could rightfully call themselves a JKD practitioner.
And as a result of those definitions and limitations, each one can fail under the right circumstances.
I thought that was a given.
I mean, since I started training Kombato (and FMA a bit before), my master made us aware of that fact. Then, it starts seeming obvious.
But, when there are egos attached, or people are so devoted to their particular style, they stop seeing the whole picture and start thinking that their particular system is end-all be-all.
==
Kombato is a reality based seld defense system, created in Rio de Janeiro, Brasil in 1989. Since then, numerous LE and mil units have trained in some form or another. Many regular civilians (like me) have trained too. Most of our techniques were adapted from traditional MA and a few were designed to fill in the gaps.
For instance, the basic curriculum of Kombato consists in BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, along with several security concepts taken from mil/LE units. It is a two-way street.
However, without those "theoretical" concepts, the physical part is just that. The theory is the "secret spice".
NCPatrolAR
04-08-11, 11:40
To me; martial arts are comprised of "systems" such as Brazilian JiuJitsu, TaeKwonDo, Escrima, etc. Practioners of those systems take the material and make it their own "style". As an example, my BJJ game isnt the same as others that started training at the same time and at the same place as me.
When it comes to the Atlanta area; you have a million options. Here are just two options:
Jacare/Alliance BJJ - http://www.alliancebjj.com/
Francis Fong - http://www.francisfongacademy.com/
Agree with the Boxing. Great foundation! Spontaneity, non-telegraphic motion, zone awareness and fear management are all gained.
I thought that was a given.
It should be, sadly it isn't.
It's almost as sad/comical as the guys who form a simple eclectic system and honestly believe they have created a new style. Every 10 years or so I have had the privileged of watching the new batch of experts "discover" an entirely new martial art system.
My personal favorites are "life and death" techniques proven in the arena of a "sporting contest" with rules.
The only sad part of the whole situation is all the the valid information that has been lost in favor of these various absurdities.
sniperfrog
04-15-11, 14:19
I think the hard part about training martial arts is finding a good school that really knows what they're doing. I would recommend Muay Thai, BJJ, boxing and the Filipino martial arts as well.
Muay Thai is probably the best for stand up. Savate is also some really good stuff.
Boxing is also great especially for the defense work.
Some guys are against learning groundfighting and say "I don't want to go to the ground in a street fight". I agree, which is why I train BJJ. You may get taken to the ground or trip and fall. Boxers and MMA fighters will often times slip in the ring/cage and end up on the ground and that is with no obsticles in there way. With BJJ, you learn how to gain a dominant position so if you want to stand back up, you can, or you can finish it on the ground. BJJ is not just about the guard position. We stress in our school to always work for the top position.
That said, there are alot of really good BJJ schools that are very sport oriented and therefore, not always the best for learning self defense. BJJ is kinda going the way of TKD and getting "softer". If you're going to train in a groundfighting style, it's good to have a school where they put the gloves on and do some light striking while on the ground. It's an eye opener even for experienced grapplers.
Filipino Martial Arts like Kali/ Escrima/Arnis and Indonisian Silat have alot of weapons (stick/knife and improvised) training. Alot of real violent encounters involve some type of weapon. FMA has alot of good footwork drills to help avoid getting tagged. There is alot of good empty hand stuff as well.
Do some research because alot of schools just jump on the "flavor of the month" with no real training in it. The instructor might watch some videos or attend a one day seminar and then start teaching something they really no very little about.
+1 for Muay Thai or Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu.
While both are regarded as "dirtier" styles by some other "experts" of other martial arts style they are infinitely more useable in a real fight than most other styles. That's what you would want or need as fights can turn ugly or "dirty" fast. It is what it is though the end goal is to make it back home in as close to the same manner in which you left it.
Krav Maga is another good one but many not in the know or, ignorantly at best, associate it or feel it's synonymous with women's self-defense. I've done Shotokan and Shorin-Ryu in the past for about 6 years total. Great styles in the right situation but not the most effective in a modern fight.
DiabhailGadhar
04-21-11, 09:56
OP,
I have quite literally spent a lifetime dabbling in martial arts, there is no correct single martial art out there that is "hands down better" then the others it is best to do what the military has done and take what is most useful for a given situation from a multitude of Martial Arts and use them in combination. Then follow that up with moves/strikes/throws that you are most comfortable with and employ them correctly! I hate to coin a frase but there truly is no replacement for " Speed, Stealth and Violence of Action" prepare your body to apply those things with strength and speed and all the ninja training in the world wont be a match. Always remember everyone has a punchers chance but the quicker you take away their initiative the better you'll stand in the end.
That being said I will go +1 on kick boxing/Muay Thai and BJJ/Gracie JJ, even the Gracies will teach you to having a few moves that you can execute almost without fail, is better then knowing every move in the book. Those are excellent, not perfect, for standing and ground work, but to get them there I would recommend Judo. The way Judo was explained to me was like "get on a porch roughly 4ft high and then jump in the air and land without being able to catch yourself thats what its gonna feel like til you figure out how to fall:p.
Finally once you have the fundamentals down....SPAR, SPAR, SPAR!!!! You cannot, like the guy said earlier, replace live real world training period ever.. However that doesnt mean roll up and sock dudes at a bar...thats only fun when there is you and four of your Marines with you...lol. Now I've rambled for eight pages.....:rolleyes:
All ready good styles have been mentioned like Systema, Brazilian Jujitsu, Krav Maga, and such although they are not the only good ones including no names.
Mostly you have to find a proper school, teacher, training partners, or combination of them as you will run into schools, teachers, etc that teach a bastardized version of a fighting art which turns it into glorified exercise.
It won't likely be that pretty, seems down right dirty, not flashy, etc but those are ussually the work horses of hand to hand. Grappling with someone for a knife, try and poke their brain with your thumb through their eye socket although its frowned upon as cowardly, can be disgusting in the minds eye, etc but its hellishly effective and easy.
elephantrider
05-06-11, 20:45
I have been training in BJJ and Muay Thai for several months now. Several other have hit many important points, but I thought I would share my thoughts and experiences on starting in martial arts.
- Select discipline(s) that cover both standup/striking and groundfighting. It is tought to beat BJJ for building confidence on the ground. If you have to go to two diffent schools to get these, then do so.
- Shop around and make sure of the quality of the training that each school is offering. Find out about the quality of the instruction and instructors. Have the instructors had any professional or amateur fights. How did they do? How well do the students do in amatuer fights and competition?
- Most schools should offer a first lesson for free. Take them up on this and shop around for a school that has what you are looking for.
Have the instructors had any professional or amateur fights. How did they do? How well do the students do in amatuer fights and competition?
I beg to disagree here. Martial arts for self defense are totally different from sport. Just see the difference between benchrest shooting and practical/tactical shooting.
- Most schools should offer a first lesson for free. Take them up on this and shop around for a school that has what you are looking for.
+1. Try to see what the instructutor thinks "of life", see if it agrees with your wolrdview.
I don't like guys that think of themselves as knowing the answer to life, the universe and everything...
elephantrider
05-09-11, 23:44
[QUOTE=pmarc;992040]I beg to disagree here. Martial arts for self defense are totally different from sport. Just see the difference between benchrest shooting and practical/tactical shooting.
I agree and disagree with this statement.
Yes, there are big differences between martial arts that are done as competitive sports and real world fights. Biggest difference being that your opponent(s) will be doing some dirty $%&! in a real fight, especially if you are winning. However, that is not to say that those same martial arts have no value in preparing someone for a real world fight, because the indeed can. In other words, I don't see martial arts that are also done competitively as neccessarily being the equivilent of benchrest shooting. I see them more as the practical shooting equivilant that you used in your analogy.
My main reason for my initial comment was to advise the OP to use a prospective teacher's experience as a guage for their competence and also possibly for the relavence of what they teach.
Oh yeah, don't forget one of the most important types of defense. The Nike defense. Probably best to avoid a fight whenever possible.
I beg to disagree here. Martial arts for self defense are totally different from sport. Just see the difference between benchrest shooting and practical/tactical shooting.
I agree and disagree with this statement.
Yes, there are big differences between martial arts that are done as competitive sports and real world fights. Biggest difference being that your opponent(s) will be doing some dirty $%&! in a real fight, especially if you are winning. However, that is not to say that those same martial arts have no value in preparing someone for a real world fight, because the indeed can. In other words, I don't see martial arts that are also done competitively as neccessarily being the equivilent of benchrest shooting. I see them more as the practical shooting equivilant that you used in your analogy.
You managed to get the finer points that I failed to make.
If those two things were totally dissociate, we would no be doing boxing punches, for instance.
Oh yeah, don't forget one of the most important types of defense. The Nike defense. Probably best to avoid a fight whenever possible.
In my school (were I study) we call it fugitsu (from "fugir" - portuguese for run away + tsu). I agree with nikejutsu.... :sarcastic:
I would suggest Kali stick or knife. I started with Kali stick hoping to talk the instructor into teaching me knife work. but i ended up loving the stick work. The stick work also blends well with knife and hand. If you are LEO it is even better because you carry a baton. Kali Knife fighting IMHO is one of the most deadly forms of knife fight. But it is also hard to find somebody that knows it or is willing to teach it. I have taken MMA, jujitsu , and Karate as a kid, Kali stick fighting was by far the best. I only took it for a while from a older guy who had some from the Philippiens when he was in his 20s.
VooDoo6Actual
05-15-11, 10:11
to the op ed,
imo,
Krav is very practical. When I trained w/ Amir P. at & Sam S. I was pleased that they "emptied their cup" approach. I shared w/ them some Eskrima/Dolce Pares I learned at IMMAA. We had some good times.
Found the same was true when I trained some w/ the Dog Brothers. Very switched on cats as well regarding pragmatic human combatives.
I also think Eskrima/Kali/Silat/BJJ/Muay Thai/Judo/Wrestling/boxing are benefical...
Interesting to see where your path takes you. Keep in touch.
To me; martial arts are comprised of "systems" such as Brazilian JiuJitsu, TaeKwonDo, Escrima, etc. Practioners of those systems take the material and make it their own "style". As an example, my BJJ game isnt the same as others that started training at the same time and at the same place as me.
When it comes to the Atlanta area; you have a million options. Here are just two options:
Jacare/Alliance BJJ - http://www.alliancebjj.com/
Francis Fong - http://www.francisfongacademy.com/
I can vouch for 2 schools in the Atlanta area:
1) Alliance BJJ: This is Romero "Jacare" Cavalcanti's flagship school in the US. Alliance is the current world champion team with affiliate schools all over the world. I trained at an affiliate in Charlotte for a couple of years until the untimely death of the local instructor. Jacare has trained many of the world's top players (Fabio Grugel, Marcello Garcia, Ruben Charles, etc.) He was making trips to Ft Benning long before the combatives program started - I actually met him in the 1990's and got bitten by the bug. This is a great school if you want top-shelf sport BJJ or if you travel and want to roll at an affiliate, but I don't think that his school is doing much striking at this time (check the schedule since he often has striking coaches work with his grapplers)
2) Roberto Traven: Roberto is a former Jacare student, world champ, and now has a growing international BJJ organization. Atlanta is also his flagship and his gym is at unit2fitness. They have a robust striking, fitness, and MMA program. I train in Charlotte at a RT affiliate, and our school dominated the NC NAGA tournament.
Basically, you have a ton of options in Atlanta - enjoy.
THis thread is yet more evidence this forum is the best on the internet!
-- 9 month Krav Maga student (lost 13 lbs so far)
THis thread is yet more evidence this forum is the best on the internet!
-- 9 month Krav Maga student (lost 13 lbs so far)
Krav has been my main staple for a few years...BJJ, Muay Thai, and Shuai Jiao mixed in there as well. In a past life as a bouncer the first and last two disciplines were an definitely asset.
DeathMetal
06-17-11, 13:59
Another here for Thai Boxing and BJJ.
There are MMA gyms in just about every city in America, OP. Find one in yours, they'll teach you the essential techniques. The plum, knees, elbows, blood chokes and common joint locks are just about all you need.
+1 You cannot go wrong with Muay Thai and BJJ. Focus more on punches and the plum from MT and Gi training BJJ because Gi =street clothes in most cases.
Good point! Gi bjj is a completely different ball game. I thought I could hold my own since I had done non-traditional for so long. turns out, those that know use the Gi to choke the opponent out. Learned the hard way
Though I've never done Gi BJJ and as a result do not understand when collar chokes would even be available I still have never heard of any qualified and respected BJJ instructor preaching the use of common t-shirt collars for any type of choke. If you have any evidence to support this, I'd be very interested in it.
Theoretically speaking, I simply dont like the idea of relying upon my opponent's shirt fabric because A. why would I rely on the strength of cotton when there are so many other submissions available to me that do not rely upon anything but my ability to control his body and B. I cannot dictate what my opponent in a realistic defensive scenario would be wearing. We cannot presume that his collar will be made of denim, and in a realistic scenario, I'm sure as shit not going to be gentle with him.
StrikeFace
06-18-11, 11:07
Pax,
I'm sure you're already aware, but I'll share it for the good of the thread: the value of gi training is the Suck Factor and the Slip Factor.
The Suck Factor is pretty obvious. Heavy cotton uniforms are brutal to fight in because they're hot and create friction during contact. If you can succeed in a heavyweight gi with all its limitations, you're going to really ruin someone's day in comfortable street clothes / fight shorts.
The Slip Factor comes in to play with guys that only train in fight shorts like they're the next Ultimate Fighter or something. Once you get sweaty, you can brute force your way out of a lot of things that you can't do in jeans, a jacket and boots out on the street.
2 cents.
During my last deployment to A-stan, a group of us BJJ enthusiasts met 3 times per week for a couple of hours of roll time. The question of Gi vs no-Gi came up since some preferred to roll in PT's while other liked BDU's. So, we actually performed a little non-scientific experiment whereby we made some of the local garb (Hajib) using materials from the Haji Shop. Most agreed that rolling in a Hajib vs. BDU is very similar to Gi BJJ, and we therefore spent most of our time training in BDUs.
I've also noticed that Gi BJJ translates very closely to street clothes in Winter months. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a value to training no-Gi. I just spend 80% of my time rolling Gi and it works for me.
Decent point. I certainly dont wear grappling clothing when training. I feel like I get enough friction during classes with just a regular t-shirt and polycotton shorts but I understand your point.
Though I've never done Gi BJJ and as a result do not understand when collar chokes would even be available I still have never heard of any qualified and respected BJJ instructor preaching the use of common t-shirt collars for any type of choke. If you have any evidence to support this, I'd be very interested in it.
Hey Pax - never seen this taught as part of organized instruction. I rolled pretty regularly and the guy that was typically my partner got me in a full gi a few times and demonstrated this. I wasn't referring to using a regular TShirt for this move, only a gi. It's been 2 years so I can get a hold of him and ask him what the exact terminology is for what he showed me. I'm almost positive one was from side control with the controller using the bottom part of the front of his gi to choke opponent. The other is fairly basic, is from a mount, and is the cross collar choke, as demonstrated here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tr-9ZIFc6s&feature=related
again, Tshirts and the like would probably rip under this circumstance so it's not as practical outside traditional BJJ. Nonetheless, a very powerful choke as the competitor in a mount is using large muscle groups and body weight to lock lock the choke. Also, the gi AND the forearms of the competitor in mount are serving to choke the opponent.
OP, these are all good suggestions. The question is, what are you training for? What do you want to be prepared to handle? Personally, I started Krav over a year ago and feel it's a great SD technique and easy to learn and rely upon if found in a hostile situation. What's more, if you want to get in shape, a Krav class will burn nearly 1,000 calories per class. It's very explosive, uses natural body reflexes and extremely punishing to your opponent.
I would add that Krav is incomplete when it comes to ground game. Most encounters/fights go to the ground. I thought about BJJ, but simple Judo or Jujitso should assist with balance, throwing and rolling.
Decide what you want to prepare for, then proceed to train. Every discipline has its advantages. Find the right one for you. Let us know what you decide.
I can vouch for 2 schools in the Atlanta area:
1) Alliance BJJ: This is Romero "Jacare" Cavalcanti's flagship school in the US. Alliance is the current world champion team with affiliate schools all over the world. I trained at an affiliate in Charlotte for a couple of years until the untimely death of the local instructor. Jacare has trained many of the world's top players (Fabio Grugel, Marcello Garcia, Ruben Charles, etc.) He was making trips to Ft Benning long before the combatives program started - I actually met him in the 1990's and got bitten by the bug. This is a great school if you want top-shelf sport BJJ or if you travel and want to roll at an affiliate, but I don't think that his school is doing much striking at this time (check the schedule since he often has striking coaches work with his grapplers)
2) Roberto Traven: Roberto is a former Jacare student, world champ, and now has a growing international BJJ organization. Atlanta is also his flagship and his gym is at unit2fitness. They have a robust striking, fitness, and MMA program. I train in Charlotte at a RT affiliate, and our school dominated the NC NAGA tournament.
Basically, you have a ton of options in Atlanta - enjoy.
Both of these places have very good reputations in the area.
Two other places that I can personally recommend:
http://www.thehardcoregym.net/index.php
Hardcore is in Athens and run by Adam and Rory Singer who are black belts under Roberto Traven. They have an outstanding program and facilities.
http://www.paulcreighton.com/
CMMA is in Suwanee and where I currently train. Paul is a black belt under Renzo Gracie. Great gi/no gi BJJ as well as standup and fitness classes and also great facilities.
Brian Stann is opening Warriors Legion Gym in Alpharetta next weekend and it should be top notch as well.
There are a ton of quality programs in the area. The metro area is huge and location comes into play due to drive times and class schedules. Any quality place will let you try a class before joining. Try a few and see which one feels right for you. Every place has it's own vibe and what is right for one guy isn't right for another.
St.Michael
07-19-11, 22:05
A good style to pick is one you think you can do and will enjoy doing. Also as said above, you want to look at how it is used and if you really think it's going to work against XXX amount of people who might have weapons or friends.
Everyone today is really big on BJJ and that MMA stuff, but really there is a lot to take into account. I always hear people comparing Marital Arts to MMA fighters. The big "oh you wouldn't beat an MMA guy with martial arts". But you gotta look at the fact that those guys train all day and are professional athletes. Also as stated above the high kicks are great, but I gotta tell you there aren't many people who could land a solid high kick on the street. Ip Man used to say if I was going to high kick to your head does that mean I should punch your foot? It just doesn't make sense.
BJJ is cool, but if your wrestling around on the ground in a bar how long till someone jumps in and helps out his buddy and pounds you while your rolling around?
There are great martial arts that are mostly stand up that you can take like Kali, Aikido, Judo, Wing Chun. I don't know how old you are but consider that fact that if your going to get good at it then you will probably be training for a long time. Is the art you pick going to be something you want to do or will be able to do when you get older?
You just have to really search for a teacher. I have been studying Martial Arts in the Cleveland area for the last ten years and was in LA before that and went through a lot of teachers to find the one I am with now. I have trained in Kali, Aikido, very small amounts of Judo/JuJitsu, karate, Tae Kwon Do and have now settled into a wing chun school. Lots of schools now a days offer the ability to pay by the lesson too so go in and pay the 10 dollars for a lesson and try it a few times to see if you like it. Be leery of schools that want you to sign up for long periods of time in contracts. Those places are generally McDojos.
All martial arts are great in one form or another, but if your looking for something for a specific reason then you have to really search. Just like our firearms each one may be good for one thing but not the other.
Good points St.Michael, and good advice. At the end of the day I'd recommend any gym that offers tons of classes for a flat rate/month. I've enjoyed that, as I can pick and choose what to try and what to concentrate on. I think everyone would agree with the fact that no one discipline is complete by itself - and that gaining proficiency in a few is a great idea.
Also it was said somewhere above that all fights usually go to the ground. I would agree but also cite that this is the worst case scenario, IMO relating to defense, especially when outnumbered. I used BJJ, etc to supplement my ground game but I would not rely on that. In a defensive situation, when a fight goes to the ground...it's never good news. It's better news if you have the mount but even then your focus is on whomever is under you, and that guy's buddy will probably end up blind-siding you at some point. Make every attempt to stay on your feet! I know I'm at my quickest/most dynamic with two hooves on the ground...but I'm also long, gangly and somewhat inflexable.
Take care
Also it was said somewhere above that all fights usually go to the ground. I would argue that this is the worst case scenario.
I remember seeing an explanation for that quote. IIRC, it came from a US police officer that referred to the fact that the suspect is usually on the ground prior to being handcuffed. That stems from the fact that is usually easier to control an individual who is lying on the floor with an officer on top and a gun pointed at him, than otherwise.
See this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6brIYwhL--I) for graphical explanation of how taking the fight to the ground could probably end.
Remember: the other guy also has friends. He is what we call in Kombato: EVAN (Enemy of bigger Volume, Armed or Numbers)
And now for a small plug: see the videos on youtube.com/kombato
I remember seeing an explanation for that quote. IIRC, it came from a US police officer that referred to the fact that the suspect is usually on the ground prior to being handcuffed. That stems from the fact that is usually easier to control an individual who is lying on the floor with an officer on top and a gun pointed at him, than otherwise.
Oh ok - good points. I was commenting from the OPs stance...the defensive.
And I'll check out the youtube channel :cool:
brzusa.1911
07-20-11, 11:12
The most realistic fight you will find are punches being thrown, elbows, hard kicks and knees, and perhaps going to the ground. Learn how punch fast and right, learn how to go to the ground and fight while there.
Also don't buy into places that will give you a Black Belt in X number of years, your Black Belt should be earned with sweat and not through time. That is another thing I luv about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, you don't get promoted to a higher belt because you've been attenting class for X amount of time, you get promoted because you earn it - you are able to finalize the people on the same belt rank as yourself and fight equally with the belt above yours.
Boxing, Muay Thai, ... pretty fun, unlike Karate or Tae Kwon Doe studios where you compete for points, you compete throwing and getting punches, kicks, elbows, knees..., whoever is able to take some and throw them well will stay standing.
QuietShootr
07-20-11, 11:19
im from the school of thought that
only real experience is a true teacher
but you can certainly learn techniques and spar to assist
but its not like the real thing
for instance look at professional mma a majority of the elite fighters have a wrestling background this isnt because wrestling is that great a style its because its a competition based learning process these guys have wrestled 100's of times all out so they have a feel for it and know what works
MMA is horseshit. Yes, there are some tough, in shape guys doing it, but by and large it's like NASCAR - it's a vehicle for separating young, fat, testosterone infused males from their money.
dookie1481
07-20-11, 12:32
MMA is horseshit. Yes, there are some tough, in shape guys doing it, but by and large it's like NASCAR - it's a vehicle for separating young, fat, testosterone infused males from their money.
How is it 'horseshit'?
QuietShootr
07-20-11, 12:46
How is it 'horseshit'?
Because it doesn't mean shit, other than a huge, in shape guy will usually **** up a smaller in shape guy if most of the true fight-stopping moves are eliminated from consideration.
So what does that prove? That Robby Leatham could shoot me first with a pistol if we faced off down a street Old West style? Sure he could, but that fails the so-what test. I'm not getting in a fair fight with Robby, if I ever had to fight him at all. Could he beat me if we both got thrown into a darkened office building? Now that's a little more interesting (and valid) if we're talking about stupid contest-type comparisons.
It's good to be in shape. It's not good to be a musclehead gym rat who goes around in Tapout gear trying to get people to come at you, bro. And that seems to be what 90% of the MMA crowd is all about.
Now, if the small guy is allowed to use a Clinch Pick or Karambit, all of a sudden all that BJJ shit starts to look a lot less fun, eh?
I'm reminded of something Robert B. Parker wrote in one of the Spenser novels. Spenser gets attacked by one of the opposing tough guys, administers a beatdown, and as the tough guy is bleeding on the parking lot deck he says, "If only you didn't have that gun." Spenser draws his gun, places it against the tough guy's nose, and says, "But, see, I will ALWAYS have a gun...and that's the difference between me and you."
dookie1481
07-20-11, 12:53
Because it doesn't mean shit, other than a huge, in shape guy will usually **** up a smaller in shape guy if most of the true fight-stopping moves are eliminated from consideration.
So what does that prove? That Robby Leatham could shoot me first with a pistol if we faced off down a street Old West style? Sure he could, but that fails the so-what test. I'm not getting in a fair fight with Robby, if I ever had to fight him at all. Could he beat me if we both got thrown into a darkened office building? Now that's a little more interesting (and valid) if we're talking about stupid contest-type comparisons.
It's good to be in shape. It's not good to be a musclehead gym rat who goes around in Tapout gear trying to get people to come at you, bro. And that seems to be what 90% of the MMA crowd is all about.
Now, if the small guy is allowed to use a Clinch Pick or Karambit, all of a sudden all that BJJ shit starts to look a lot less fun, eh?
I'm reminded of something Robert B. Parker wrote in one of the Spenser novels. Spenser gets attacked by one of the opposing tough guys, administers a beatdown, and as the tough guy is bleeding on the parking lot deck he says, "If only you didn't have that gun." Spenser draws his gun, places it against the tough guy's nose, and says, "But, see, I will ALWAYS have a gun...and that's the difference between me and you."
Interesting that you brought up the Clinch Pick. Your points have a lot of validity if you look at self-defense as being constructed of discreet "components" instead of looking at how those components would work when integrated.
This is the sort of thing discussed on www.totalprotectioninteractive.com - it's a great board (run by SouthNarc, I believe)
I don't disagree with your point about a lot of the guys at MMA gyms (at least the ones I tend to interact with), but denouncing it because of that is like saying guns are bad because the average gun owner buys a Judge and a DPMS and shoots dirt.
QuietShootr
07-20-11, 13:09
Interesting that you brought up the Clinch Pick. Your points have a lot of validity if you look at self-defense as being constructed of discreet "components" instead of looking at how those components would work when integrated.
This is the sort of thing discussed on www.totalprotectioninteractive.com - it's a great board (run by SouthNarc, I believe)
I don't disagree with your point about a lot of the guys at MMA gyms (at least the ones I tend to interact with), but denouncing it because of that is like saying guns are bad because the average gun owner buys a Judge and a DPMS and shoots dirt.
re your first point: I didn't mean to give that impression - I believe it's all integrated, from language skills up to the ability to effectively emplace and employ heavy machine guns and AT weapons. Where I disagree is the overemphasis on "beating up" skill as if it means more than it does. Now: if it's your job to go hands on with people all the time without seriously damaging them or killing them (as in police officer or correctional facility worker), then certainly you need to spend more time on the OORAH chest-beating shit. That's where you make your money, both literally and figuratively. For everyone else, civilians AND soldiers, it doesn't matter that much.
As a non-police officer, the fact is, your mouth will get you out of a good percentage of the situations you find yourself in, running will get you out of a good percentage of the rest, and if you can't do either, it's probably time to shoot, not go all UFC on somebody's ass.
I think someone already said it - boxing is absolutely not the end-all be all by any means, but six months to a year of it would do most people a world of good. You learn several good things: 1) Getting hit hurts, but it doesn't kill you. 2) you can fight through getting the shit knocked out of you if you've had to do it before. and 3) good big guy beats good small guy almost every time if you impose artificial restraints. Now, you've learned how to block, look for opportunities and weaknesses, and how to throw a good punch. Now move on before you start becoming the boxing equivalent of "COME AT ME BRO" thinking everyone's going to fight Marquis of Queensbury rules.
dookie1481
07-20-11, 13:15
re your first point: I didn't mean to give that impression - I believe it's all integrated, from language skills up to the ability to effectively emplace and employ heavy machine guns and AT weapons. Where I disagree is the overemphasis on "beating up" skill as if it means more than it does. Now: if it's your job to go hands on with people all the time without seriously damaging them or killing them (as in police officer or correctional facility worker), then certainly you need to spend more time on the OORAH chest-beating shit. That's where you make your money, both literally and figuratively. For everyone else, civilians AND soldiers, it doesn't matter that much.
As a non-police officer, the fact is, your mouth will get you out of a good percentage of the situations you find yourself in, running will get you out of a good percentage of the rest, and if you can't do either, it's probably time to shoot, not go all UFC on somebody's ass.
I think someone already said it - boxing is absolutely not the end-all be all by any means, but six months to a year of it would do most people a world of good. You learn several good things: 1) Getting hit hurts, but it doesn't kill you. 2) you can fight through getting the shit knocked out of you if you've had to do it before. and 3) good big guy beats good small guy almost every time if you impose artificial restraints. Now, you've learned how to block, look for opportunities and weaknesses, and how to throw a good punch. Now move on before you start becoming the boxing equivalent of "COME AT ME BRO" thinking everyone's going to fight Marquis of Queensbury rules.
I may have confused what you were saying. I agree with you.
it's probably time to shoot, not go all UFC on somebody's ass.
And if there's a malf? Or the guns knocked out of your hand? It's undisputed to say some type of hand to hand combative is essential.
And I think you're judging the practice/sport based on its' followers. MMA and its roots are widespread throughout Columbus and i don't think the sport perpetuates/leads the fans to act the way they do. Though I do agree that 90% of the tapout-wearing tools are complete pussies/are 'those guys' that go to the gym just to do curls.
On point though with boxing. Fundamentals yes, but even more importantly - as you said, it teaches you how to get half ****ed and still remember your name. In the ring or on the street, you're gonna get hit. If you can't get past that brief fog/oh shit moment after you get clocked...there's no hope for you and there never will be. What's more, if you can't throw a proper punch....well...you're probably wearing a Tapout shirt :lol:
Edit: I still and will always believe that no one discipline is the best. I started with the traditional karate and boxing at a young age and went to other disciplines as they became more available. Can't stop at just one...
NCPatrolAR
07-20-11, 16:42
When it comes to gi versus no gi I prefer to do gi work. It should be noted that Marcelo Garcia devotes 90% of his workouts to gi work and only to no gi and is considered one of the prmier no gi grapplers on the planet.
When it comes to practical use; I think MMA is one of the better martial arts that can be studied. Just like with everything else; it isnt the end-ll, be-all but it solves a lot of problems and certainly cant hurt someone regardless of their career.
NCPatrolAR
07-20-11, 17:40
Also, the "all fights go to the ground" came from a report that LAPD years ago
St.Michael
07-20-11, 19:00
How is it 'horseshit'?
I believe he is trying to say it's straight for entertainment.
I always bring up the point that even though MOST martial arts are to preserve life they are usually in the end to preserve YOUR life. So we don't just train to be punching bags, we train to hurt. To finish a fight before someone can hurt me or my family.
St.Michael
07-20-11, 19:02
Also, the "all fights go to the ground" came from a report that LAPD years ago
I never go to the ground. And I have also practiced so I don't have to go to the ground. My stand up is good enough and I have worked out enough of it that when someone tries to take me to the ground they usually take some sort of strike to the head/neck area. I hate rolling around so I train extra hard in ways to avoid it. IMO to say all fights end up on the ground is just not logical. Most kids and even adults now that I have seen fight that end up on the ground are usually just bad fighters and end up rolling around playing grab ass.
The one thing to remember is as stated before not one single martial art is perfect. I took Kali for 6 years and I concentrated on mostly knife fighting. Now I am in traditional Wing Chun and although Kali is much better for training with a knife, Wing Chun is much faster at getting to the point and knocking someone out ( or trying to anyway)
Just don't get caught up in the hype that if you Thai Box you will be a bad ass because even though most Thai boxers are awesome they also kick trees and such so take that into consideration lol. Later on down the line you pay for what you do now.
QuietShootr
07-20-11, 19:21
I never go to the ground. And I have also practiced so I don't have to go to the ground. My stand up is good enough and I have worked out enough of it that when someone tries to take me to the ground they usually take some sort of strike to the head/neck area. I hate rolling around so I train extra hard in ways to avoid it.
You were correct in both your posts. I think it's the current Billy Bad-Ass thing to do, too. And the only real effect I can see is that there are a bunch of 20-something dudes running around who went to a couple of classes and think they're going to go all Royce Gracie on someone... the last time (of a few times) I saw this dance it ended up with the tough guy screaming like a little girl because half his ear was bitten off and he had some number of broken teeth from the sidewalk. Probably can find the newspaper article if I look real hard.
St.Michael
07-20-11, 20:00
You were correct in both your posts. I think it's the current Billy Bad-Ass thing to do, too. And the only real effect I can see is that there are a bunch of 20-something dudes running around who went to a couple of classes and think they're going to go all Royce Gracie on someone... the last time (of a few times) I saw this dance it ended up with the tough guy screaming like a little girl because half his ear was bitten off and he had some number of broken teeth from the sidewalk. Probably can find the newspaper article if I look real hard.
HAHAHA. that is awesome.
MY sifu was at a seminar mixed with judo guys and wing chun.
Judo guys says "hey what do you do if i shoot into your legs and drop you to the ground.
My sifu tells him to go ahead and try and as he comes in my teacher dropped a step back and used open palms to strike his face and the back of his neck. Kinda came in like when you clap someones ears. LOL. Dude dropped like a rock.
dookie1481
07-20-11, 20:37
I believe he is trying to say it's straight for entertainment.
Interesting. That runs counter to what some very highly respected people over at that forum seem to think...
It's undisputed...
Dohohohohohohohoho
NCPatrolAR
07-20-11, 20:47
I never go to the ground.
Meaning you don't intentionally go to the ground or do you think that you can't be forced to the ground?
IMO to say all fights end up on the ground is just not logical.
I don't know if you're trying to imply that I'm of the view that all fights go to the ground or what. The LAPD study I referenced actually focused on the fights their officers had and the positions they ended up in (or was explained to me that way). Rorion and company used it as a great marketing tool that people still cite today.
The one thing to remember is as stated before not one single martial art is perfect. I took Kali for 6 years and I concentrated on mostly knife fighting. Now I am in traditional Wing Chun and although Kali is much better for training with a knife, Wing Chun is much faster at getting to the point and knocking someone out ( or trying to anyway)
what other systems have you trained in?
I never go to the ground. And I have also practiced so I don't have to go to the ground.
Dangerous thinking. Your stand up will take a hit if you're dealing with variables not encountered in most martial arts training- multiple opponents, unarmed vs. armed, unequal initiative, or semi skilled opponents with a significant size advantage.
Depending on whose study or quote you use, 70-90% of fights (especially LEOs, since its easier to document) go to the ground. Some people argue that 100% start standing up, and that's fine, but I prefer to consider the worst case scenario when I train.
Mt. Michael, I'm not saying I'm talking about you, but if I heard someone on a gun forum tell me that they didn't train for ground fighting in self defense because they didn't think they'd ever get taken down, I'd offer that its akin to not practicing reloads or malfunctions with a defensive firearm.
Dohohohohohohohoho
The whole quote :D
It's undisputed to say some type of hand to hand combative is essential.
Dangerous thinking. Your stand up will take a hit if you're dealing with variables not encountered in most martial arts training- multiple opponents, unarmed vs. armed, unequal initiative, or semi skilled opponents with a significant size advantage.
Depending on whose study or quote you use, 70-90% of fights (especially LEOs, since its easier to document) go to the ground. Some people argue that 100% start standing up, and that's fine, but I prefer to consider the worst case scenario when I train; I agree with those above that cite it is almost a certainty in some situations.
Mt. Michael, I'm not saying I'm talking about you, but if I heard someone on a gun forum tell me that they didn't train for ground fighting in self defense because they didn't think they'd ever get taken down, I'd offer that its akin to not practicing reloads or malfunctions with a defensive firearm.
Good points...I think I said something about this on a different page and should probably rephrase to say it's undesirable and I make every attempt to avoid ending up on the ground, especially when outnumbered but it's something that must be trained for.
St.Michael
07-21-11, 08:12
Dangerous thinking. Your stand up will take a hit if you're dealing with variables not encountered in most martial arts training- multiple opponents, unarmed vs. armed, unequal initiative, or semi skilled opponents with a significant size advantage.
Depending on whose study or quote you use, 70-90% of fights (especially LEOs, since its easier to document) go to the ground. Some people argue that 100% start standing up, and that's fine, but I prefer to consider the worst case scenario when I train.
Mt. Michael, I'm not saying I'm talking about you, but if I heard someone on a gun forum tell me that they didn't train for ground fighting in self defense because they didn't think they'd ever get taken down, I'd offer that its akin to not practicing reloads or malfunctions with a defensive firearm.
To answer the questions of you and the other guy I didn't mean I can't get taken to the ground I meant that I practice because I never take and never want to take the fight to the ground. I hate ground fighting.
There is always someone better who can whoop me to the ground. I just train a lot so I don't have to if I can help it. lol.
To believe that you would NEVER get taken to the ground would just be stupid as in this world there are no sure things. I have tossed around dudes who are 200+ lbs of pure muscle and I have been tossed to the ground by guys who are 160lbs. It all resorts back to training. I have trained in a small bit of ju jitsu although without a doubt it was a minimal amount at best. I know enough to out of chokes on the ground and to get the upper hand, but I am by no means a good ground fighter. Besides if I get taken to the ground it's going to be very very dirty fighting. Eye ball poking, choking, finger breaking. That sort of thing. My favorite on the ground is when someone has a full mount on you if you can reach up and try to put your fingers under their rib cage. LOL. That hurts in so bad.
As far as the training I have done, I was in TKD for only 2 years, Karate for a year, I trained in Aikido almost every day for 2 years, I left Aikido because I wanted to knife fight and trained in a Kali school where we dabbled in Kali, Eskrima, Aikido, Judo, Ju Jitsu for 6 years and I now practice traditional Wing Chun. My Sifu is third generation from Ip Man.
During the 6 years at the kali school I concentrated on mostly hand to hand, stick fighting, and knife fighting. Even thought we dabbled in the other stuff I still don't believe I am proficient in it.
The way I see it in the real world there is kind of a line of defense.
So if I have my pistol and we get past that I hope to be able to use my knife. If I can't use either of those I will try my best to fight standing up. If I get taken down then I am gonna fight as dirty as I can. LOL we are here to win right?
On that note I study martial arts in a physical and mental way. I am a firm believer in the old ways of study so I also practice walking away from whatever I can. I love and respect all martial arts. I just happen to be better and like some more then others.
brzusa.1911
07-21-11, 08:33
[...] Marcelo Garcia devotes 90% of his workouts to gi work and only to no gi and is considered one of the prmier no gi grapplers on the planet.
[...]
Thumbs up to Marcelo Garcia, the guy is certantly one of the best. I too like to practice with gi better than no gi (90% of the time), but once in a week or so I would go no gi. My master is Ricardo De La Riva - I've been to his studio in Rio to practice, awesome! You walk in and there are like 20+ blackbelts on the mat, a little intimidating - but very nice!!!
NCPatrolAR
07-21-11, 08:49
I believe in taking the fight to where I'm the strongest. If I'm dealing with a guy that doesn't seem to feel my strikes and/or seems to be a better stand up fighter than me then I do my best to take the fight to ground. Like-wise; if I'm rolling on the ground with someone that is better than me then my goal is to get back to my feet. We have to be well versed in both planes (standing and grounded) of fighting.
Something else to keep in mind is that everyone has a puncher's chance of landing a fight-ending strike.
When it comes to eye gouges, finger breaks, etc on the ground; those are neat tricks to have but I would never count on them. Instead, having solid fundamentals when it comes to escapes from positions of disadvantage. That will get you much further than many if the oft-cited "anti grappling" techniques.
My Sifu is third generation from Ip Man.
This is why I like the Ip Man/Lee/Inosanto heritage and the Wing Chun/JKD/Kali blend. Its a small world. ;)
sniperfrog
07-21-11, 14:39
Besides if I get taken to the ground it's going to be very very dirty fighting. Eye ball poking, choking, finger breaking. That sort of thing. My favorite on the ground is when someone has a full mount on you if you can reach up and try to put your fingers under their rib cage. LOL. That hurts in so bad.
I always kinda laugh when I hear guys that don't train in groundfighting say stuff like this.
Being on the ground you have to understand that the other guy will be hitting you, headbutting, choking, eye poking and maybe trying to break your fingers as well. Do you know how to defend against this stuff?
Just saying "I'll fight dirty" isn't enough. At my BJJ school we have guys come in that say stuff like that so we call them out on it.
They can do whatever they want, and see if it works.
Guess what, they never get the chance to poke any eyes or break any fingers because they're to busy trying to defend against the strikes, chokes and locks that are being thrown on them.
For example, your mount defense. If someone has you in a full mount and you stick your fingers under their ribs there's a good chance they will head butt the shit out of you and maybe stick their fingers in your eyes. You're probably going to be getting punched or choked anyway so defending that would be the first priority before the old rib trick.
I also train JKD/Kali as well as Muay Thai. It's about being well rounded and prepared.
NCPatrolAR
07-21-11, 15:21
whoa; I missed the fingers in the ribs mount defense.
St.Michael
07-21-11, 22:51
I always kinda laugh when I hear guys that don't train in groundfighting say stuff like this.
Being on the ground you have to understand that the other guy will be hitting you, headbutting, choking, eye poking and maybe trying to break your fingers as well. Do you know how to defend against this stuff?
Just saying "I'll fight dirty" isn't enough. At my BJJ school we have guys come in that say stuff like that so we call them out on it.
They can do whatever they want, and see if it works.
Guess what, they never get the chance to poke any eyes or break any fingers because they're to busy trying to defend against the strikes, chokes and locks that are being thrown on them.
I didn't say I don't train in it. It's just not a primary. And if your fighting guys who you "let do what they want" and can't get anything done it means they are probably choke artists? I can't see a school just letting random people off the street have a go at their students full out. For starters it just seems like a liability issue, but then I could be mistake I have heard of schools where guys just get together and beat the living snot out of each other. Also back to the point of I am almost NEVER in a position where I want to fight on the ground either way. Situations where rolling around with another guy on the ground are pretty much non existent in my life. As stated above examples are like when I am at the bar I am usually with 2 or more friends, when I am out with family I am usually carrying my pistol in which case I don't wanna roll around with my firearm. Even at work I have a sidearm. Either way though I train in ground, but I hate it. Ill stick to biting!! :)
St.Michael
07-21-11, 22:53
This is why I like the Ip Man/Lee/Inosanto heritage and the Wing Chun/JKD/Kali blend. Its a small world. ;)
All of this stuff is perfect for stand up fighting. Anyone who has seen Dan Or Paul move will know its great stuff! If there is a style that can avoid being taken to the ground it's this stuff. The use of hands/elbows/knees is so extensive you could spend a life time working on it.
St.Michael
07-21-11, 23:05
whoa; I missed the fingers in the ribs mount defense.
I used it the other day on this bodybuilder who decided to snag me up in a bear hug cause he thought it was funny. He let go really fast.
NCPatrolAR
07-22-11, 00:09
I used it the other day on this bodybuilder who decided to snag me up in a bear hug cause he thought it was funny. He let go really fast.
How many times have you pulled the move off while mounted (how it was originally mentioned)? Have any of the people you tried it been trained grapplers?
He's a troll or a waste of time, guys. My guess is the latter. Which is fine. Plenty of people out there with asian-esque avatars that believe in the elegant art of the katana and find all practical fighting to be impractical because it is boring. He probably wont ever have to actually fight anyone, so leave him be. You wont convince him of anything on the internet. Perhaps if this were a true face-to-face discussion, you could repeatedly demonstrate the utility of a good double-leg to ground and pound on him but given that hes hundreds of miles away in a basement eating Funyuns, its just not going to happen. Let it go and move on to something productive.
For example, your mount defense. If someone has you in a full mount and you stick your fingers under their ribs there's a good chance they will head butt the shit out of you and maybe stick their fingers in your eyes. You're probably going to be getting punched or choked anyway so defending that would be the first priority before the old rib trick.
Never heard of doing anything but protecting face while on the bottom. When young and dumb the guy in the mount braced on an arm...I tried to shoot for that for a lock...well it was bait. Rib trick guy (henceforth to be referred to as ribripper? :lol:), have you ever had your forearm/wrist stomped and pinned with a shin/knee? Hurts like a bitch, guaranteed that's what anyone trained would do...after they headbutt you, otherwise punish you for trying your little trick
St.Michael
07-22-11, 11:02
Darn double post
St.Michael
07-22-11, 11:09
He's a troll or a waste of time, guys. My guess is the latter. Which is fine. Plenty of people out there with asian-esque avatars that believe in the elegant art of the katana and find all practical fighting to be impractical because it is boring. He probably wont ever have to actually fight anyone, so leave him be. You wont convince him of anything on the internet. Perhaps if this were a true face-to-face discussion, you could repeatedly demonstrate the utility of a good double-leg to ground and pound on him but given that hes hundreds of miles away in a basement eating Funyuns, its just not going to happen. Let it go and move on to something productive.
Since when did opinions become trolls. If you had read the rest of the post you would see the arts I train in are nothing but practical. Please read everything before insulting people. Oh and my avatar is from a cartoon ;)
Also I have used the technique on 2 trained grapplers. One who trained under jeff star for seven years. Jeff is about to get his bb from a gracie. So I should hope they would be considered bjj trained.
St.Michael
07-22-11, 11:16
Op sorry about getting off track. Did you find a school?
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 11:20
http://www.karambit.com/picture_library/kcom-journeyman-beaut.jpg
I carry this on my non-dominant side just for people who want to play ****-**** games like grabbing for my gun or wanting to wrestle. I wrestled in HS for a few years until I got a knee broken, and I retain just enough to to keep a hand free for the half-second or so it takes me to deploy it. There's a fellow around here who was in one of Tarani's classes with me who can tell you what he thinks of my chances of getting a grappler off of me tout de suite. Now that I told you about it, you might be able to set it up so that it would be harder for me to do that - but if you were not completely ready for it you'd have it in your guts right about the time you thought you were in charge. Yup, you still might be able to fight through it and break something of mine...but if you can do that while I'm playing Little Jack Horner Stuck In His Thumb And Pulled Out A Transverse Colon, you probably would have kicked my ass into little pieces anyway. There's only so much you can do.
St.Michael
07-22-11, 11:27
http://www.karambit.com/picture_library/kcom-journeyman-beaut.jpg
I carry this on my non-dominant side just for people who want to play ****-**** games like grabbing for my gun or wanting to wrestle. I wrestled in HS for a few years until I got a knee broken, and I retain just enough to to keep a hand free for the half-second or so it takes me to deploy it. There's a fellow around here who was in one of Tarani's classes with me who can tell you what he thinks of my chances of getting a grappler off of me tout de suite. Now that I told you about it, you might be able to set it up so that it would be harder for me to do that - but if you were not completely ready for it you'd have it in your guts right about the time you thought you were in charge. Yup, yojiu still might be able to fight through it and break something of mine...but if you can do that while I'm playing Little Jack Horner Stuck In His Thumb And Pulled Out A Transverse Colon, you probably would have kicked my ass into little pieces anyway. There's only so much you can do.
These knives are great. I like that they can do so much in an ice pick drop grip as well as hammer. Knives are scary because they do so much damage so fast.
sniperfrog
07-22-11, 12:50
All of this stuff is perfect for stand up fighting. Anyone who has seen Dan Or Paul move will know its great stuff! If there is a style that can avoid being taken to the ground it's this stuff. The use of hands/elbows/knees is so extensive you could spend a life time working on it.
I assume by Dan and Paul you mean Dan Inosanto and Paul Vunak. My instructor is a Senior Full Instructor in JKD/Kali under Vunak and a black belt in BJJ under Carlos Gracie Jr. It was Vunak that got my instructor to train in BJJ in the first place because Vu saw how effective it was. When Paul first trained with the gracies he said none of his JKD stuff would work because they kept taking him down and punishing him on the ground. This is why he started to use biting techniques.
Dan Inosanto is also a BJJ black belt and trains BJJ every day.
Your poke to the ribs might work on some people but I assume the guy you were training with wasn't trying to punch, headbutt or otherwise hurt you in a significant way.
To think you will never end up on the ground is ridiculous. Pro Boxers will sometimes trip and fall in a ring with no obstacles anywhere. Shit like that just happens.
At my school we have had guys come in and want to "test" the school out. These are basically "challenge" matches. It happens at alot of schools. You should watch the video "Gracies in Action". There the Gracies take on all sorts of martial artists that can use whatever they want. They all end up getting choked out.
NCPatrolAR
07-22-11, 13:47
Tools (knives, guns, rocks, etc) are great when you have the opportunity to bring them into play. When looking at ground situations, it pays to have the technical ability to survive and escape from positions of disadvantage so we are better able to access and then use available tools
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 14:28
I assume by Dan and Paul you mean Dan Inosanto and Paul Vunak. My instructor is a Senior Full Instructor in JKD/Kali under Vunak and a black belt in BJJ under Carlos Gracie Jr. It was Vunak that got my instructor to train in BJJ in the first place because Vu saw how effective it was. When Paul first trained with the gracies he said none of his JKD stuff would work because they kept taking him down and punishing him on the ground. This is why he started to use biting techniques.
Dan Inosanto is also a BJJ black belt and trains BJJ every day.
Your poke to the ribs might work on some people but I assume the guy you were training with wasn't trying to punch, headbutt or otherwise hurt you in a significant way.
To think you will never end up on the ground is ridiculous. Pro Boxers will sometimes trip and fall in a ring with no obstacles anywhere. Shit like that just happens.
At my school we have had guys come in and want to "test" the school out. These are basically "challenge" matches. It happens at alot of schools. You should watch the video "Gracies in Action". There the Gracies take on all sorts of martial artists that can use whatever they want. They all end up getting choked out.
That's a game changer, too. There is a real primal fear of getting bitten, and I have never seen a fight that wasn't stopped by someone really sinking their teeth into someone else. If you didn't see a stop, the biter must not have gotten good purchase on some meat. I figure, you want to wrestle, be prepared to lose your nose, ear, cheek, or whatever - and I'll swallow that bitch, too, just to make sure you can't have it back. Blood-borne pathogens be damned.
Not to mention, are you going to stick around and fight with a guy who just ate a chunk of your face?
St.Michael
07-22-11, 15:21
I assume by Dan and Paul you mean Dan Inosanto and Paul Vunak. My instructor is a Senior Full Instructor in JKD/Kali under Vunak and a black belt in BJJ under Carlos Gracie Jr. It was Vunak that got my instructor to train in BJJ in the first place because Vu saw how effective it was. When Paul first trained with the gracies he said none of his JKD stuff would work because they kept taking him down and punishing him on the ground. This is why he started to use biting techniques.
Dan Inosanto is also a BJJ black belt and trains BJJ every day.
Your poke to the ribs might work on some people but I assume the guy you were training with wasn't trying to punch, headbutt or otherwise hurt you in a significant way.
To think you will never end up on the ground is ridiculous. Pro Boxers will sometimes trip and fall in a ring with no obstacles anywhere. Shit like that just happens.
At my school we have had guys come in and want to "test" the school out. These are basically "challenge" matches. It happens at alot of schools. You should watch the video "Gracies in Action". There the Gracies take on all sorts of martial artists that can use whatever they want. They all end up getting choked out.
I never said that I WONT end up on the ground. No where did I state that. I simply said I prefer to train mostly stand up. If I had time to do more then one kind of style I would for sure, but alas I am too poor and have too many other things I have to do. I can only train bjj now with guys on my free time outside of a class room since I can't afford to go to multiple schools
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