View Full Version : Of barrels, barrel lengths and brakes for precision rifles
I'm doing some upgrades to my precision rig which I mainly use for testing out ideals vs. a duty rifle. The upgrades are also aimed at improving it as a training tool. So I thought this would be a good oppertunity to learn the subject from some of the better versed folks on this board.
Here is the only Article I have seen on the topic:
BARREL LENGTH AND THE PRECISION RIFLE (http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/)
My current test rifle is a .300WM Savage 110 from Stockade, with a 26" 1 in 10 barrel, no brake. I used this rifle to test out some of the basic ideals behind writing a requirement for my day job. Better hands took those ideals to a real solution, but thats a differant story. I'm also looking to build eiter a .308 or a .260 that is lighter/handier. I don't get to shoot truely long range often, but want to maintain a viable rifle should I get to some of the classes on my training list. Most of my "precision" work is done with a Noveske SPR inside 600m.
So back to the question, whats the best "balance" for a .300WM barrel and a .308 barrel?
.300WM:
First from my seat at least going to a .300WM means a truely "dedicated" LR platform that should be optimized for that purpose. However, it must also remain manuverable and not be unwieldy due to size weight. High round counts in short amounts of time are not what it's for. The current 26" barrel is plenty accurate, but balances to far forward for my taste and is unwieldy for most uses.
My thought is that I would bring it down to a 22" barrel and then add the brake, leaving the OAL barrel around 24". Another option would be Magna Porting vs. installing a brake. Those 4" come with a FPS loss, but I believe that I am still ahead for the training envelope I'm looking at between 500m and 1000m. What's wrong with that ideal, if anything? What am I overlooking?
Oh, mainly shooting 190gr Black Hills and looking for a good source for 220gr SMK loads.
.308::stop:
Short action .308 riles have been the go to precision standard for decades for good reason. That said I'm looking at a slightly differant take on short action rifles. KevinB strongly believes in 16" EMC's from discussion at a class earlier this year and several others on this board also like short barrels for their precision .308 AR's. I have not noticed much discussion of them on blot guns. I'm not debating .308's work out to 1,000 or even beyound, but are they optimal? Probably not.
So, if I redefine the primary use for .308 as a general purpose calibier or "Police" round which will most commonly be used inside 800m or even 600m (ok, for Police inside 100m) whats the best length? I have a hunting rifle (788 Carbine) in 7-08 with a 18" barrel that has uncanny accuracy. Hence I'm swayed that 18" is a sweet spot, but maybe a quality 16" bolt gun is "as good" as a 16" EMC. Or on the other hand do I need 22' or even 24" to get the most out of my rifle.
Brakes:
First I want to add a brake to increase my ablity to self spot. You would think a 13+ pound rifle would stay in place, but not my .300WM. Precison rifle brakes are sometimes discussed, but I've never seen a detailed comparision test of any of the major brands, Surefire, AAC, Badger, VAIS(not realy a "tactical" brake), ect. Is any such data published some were, or do we do it here? I believe, even if it's not an option for lay peaple in NYS:mad: the requirement should include the ABLITY to mount a suppressor so please include any experiances you have with those also. Right now I'm looking at using a Surefire MB762-401R for use (someday) with the FA762MG on my .300WM.
Thanks and I look forward to any discussion.
I'm a big Surefire guy. My buddy ordered his 300 with an SF brake and we should be getting it soon, looking forward to it. Note that the 762MG is the size of the 338 can and they use the same adapters. Unless I'm mistaken-the usual caveat. I'd probably get the 338 can and use it for all my precision rifles.
In regards to 300 WM barrel length.
In my opinion shortening the barrel on the 300 WM will only take away from it one of its greatest advantages over a standard 308. A big advantage of a 300 WM over a 308 is being able to stay supersonic with a 30 caliber bullet much farther than a standard 308, giving you a greater effective range to engage targets at. By decreasing barrel length and reducing the velocity, you are shortening its maximum effective distance. Shorten it enough and you may run into a lower velocity that results in no significant range increase over a standard 308, but at the cost of more expense per shot and greater recoil. I have seen articles claiming that with some magnum cartridges you can lose between 40-50fps per 1" reduction of the barrels. At that rate, reducing just 4"of barrel length can possibly cause up to a 200fps drop in velocity, which will certainly add up to a decreased effective range. Using your definition of the 300 WM as a truly dedicated LR rifle, decreasing the effective range by lowering the velocity would seem to go against its desired role as a true LR platform.
Also as you shorten barrel length on a 300 WM you reduce the rifles weight, resulting in more perceived recoil for the shooter. More recoil can possibly degrade the shooters ability to shoot accurately or for extended range sessions to gather good DOPE. You may be able to counter the additional recoil with a good muzzle brake though.
I agree with the above. An advantage a 300WM has over .308 is the larger case which allows it to hold more powder. More powder equals higher velocity. Higher velocity equals flatter trajectory and better terminal ballistics.
If you shorten the barrel then you won't burn the full powder charge which basically you're are not going to see its full potential. The 300WM was made to keep the barrel longer. Now, a .308 is a great platform for a shorter barrel. It has good velocity and decent BC's with a higher grain bullets, with the exception of the 155 Sierra MK used in Palma. I'm currently building a 18.5" .308 with a "tight bore" to help keep velocity as high as I can. It should still give me around 2550-2590 velocity muzzle readings. The .308 doesn't do one thing particularly excellent but it does many things well. Can shoot to 1,000 yards with a relatively short barrel, heavy grain projectiles to penetrate intermediate barriers, and can be 1/4 moa accurate. That is why the .308 is so common and widely used. A shorter barrel in some circumstances are commonly more accurate becuase the barrel is more stiff or rigid, (less harmonics to effect bullet stability).
I went out on a limb and have two short barreled rifles. They are in 300wm and .308. I have found out a few things with these rifles, the first being the .308 losses less velocity per inch then the 300wm. I also found out they dont loose as much velocity as people think. Both of the rifles are Savage Precision Carbines the .308 has a 14.5 inch barrel with fixed brake, and the 300wm is the standard for the rifle 20 inch. I have a Sendero to compare the 300wm to as this is what I found 168gr barnes ttsx 3 shot avg out of savage was 3210fps, 3 shot average out of Remmy was 3450fps avg loss per inch of barrel was 40fps. Factory Winchester 150gr PP ammo was 3 shot avg of savage was 3103fps, and 3 shot avg out of Remmy was 3240fps. Avg loss per inch of barrel was 22.83fps. I dont know why my handloads loose more velocity then factory ammo. I dont think I will have any trouble pushing 208 amax rounds at 2,750 which will make this a very light long range rifle. Accuracy with the factory ammo was sub moa.
The .308 is a shooter, it is accurate with just about anything you shoot out of it. 130ttsx to 175SMK it just shoots. .250-.500 groups are the norm and velocity with 175smk with the max charge of varget are right at 2600fps. I would not want a long barrel .308 after owning this I just dont see the advantage for what it is used for. My daughter uses it to shoot out to 800yds on steel, and shoots some bench rest with it. It is going into a either a new stock or chassis in the next month.
I think my next rifle is going to be a 18inch 260 for my son. I dont think you would have any problems with a 22 inch 300wm, My savage in .308 was always faster then my LTR with the same loads. It may have a fast chamber/barrel it was usually 40fps faster then the Remmy when they each had 20 inch tubes. http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu16/soumigirl/kitchenguns002.jpg
Belmont31R
03-30-11, 16:15
I would leave the 300WM around 26" and go much shorter on the 308 (16-18").
I would not plan on shooting a braked gun in a LE/duty situation. If you plan on running the can 'full time' then a break can help protect the can.
My 16" Sr25 works great at 750...not so much at 1k. Not the guns fault but I don't think 308 is a good 1k round caliber. Yes people have made amazing shots with it well past that but IMO its way too environmentally limited at that distance. I shoot with some guys who are mil trained and dedicated bolt gun guys. At 1k 300WM is a much more desirable caliber, and for a dedicated LR rig I would not want to hinder the gun by cutting the barrel too short. If you are looking to shoot 800+ barrel length is not a significant factor mobility wise. The needs of LR performance trump any mobility gains with a shorter barrel. On the other hand I don't feel hindered at all with a 16" 308 gas gun to at least 750, and I regularly can put more accurate fire on targets at that range than the bolt gun guys can.
I've done some 1k yard shooting with the 16" 308, and in ideal conditions it would work but thats not really realistic. With even a 3-4MPH wind change between you and the target it can draw your round off target by a good margin. With the ballistic data I have a 300WM with a heavy bullet at a good clip will have less than half the wind deflection a 308 will have.
I talked to another member about this, and if you look at the trend several western military's have gone to is a 308 gas gun and a magnum bolt action. USA has the M110 and now a 300WM bolt. Brits have gone to a 308 gas and 338 bolt. A well made gas gun in 308 is good to 800 reliably, and a good magnum bolt action can handle things to 1300-1500 with a good shooter. Inside that 800 the 308 gas gun can put rounds on target quicker, hold more rounds, and be just as effective accuracy wise in a practical sense. With modern gas guns capable of sub-MOA accuracy any SLIGHT loss in accuracy going to a gas gun for 308 is more than made up for by mag capacity and being able to put rounds on target quicker.
A few things to add after reading the article linked in your first post. The article states that velocity loss is greater in the 300 WM with loads firing heavy bullets that require slower burning powders. That is exactly the loads you are describing using, bullets in the 190-220gr range. For that reason alone I wouldn't want to chop much off the barrel below 24" so I can get the utmost performance out of the ammo you plan on using. My own experience handloading for the 300 WM and talking with a few other friends who do so also, show that the heavy bullets do best with slower burning powders in the 300 WM. If you were shooting a lighter bullet with a faster powder, then like the article says the velocity loss is not as great, but with your intended ammo, and if you wanted a true LR platform, I wouldn't go much below 24".
Chuckhawks has a pretty good compilation of data from a few different sources on barrel length and velocity gain/loss. http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm
But in regards to it being a LR platform, I noticed you stated the use for the 300 WM would be between 500-1,000m. The 300WM will definently be preferred past 800 in my opinion, but a 308 would serve fairly well in the stated role with a greater positive impact on training and cost. If you extended the range out to say 1,200m then I would go 300 WM all the way. But within 1,000m and in your not really maximizing your use of the 300 WM which would beg me to question, why 300 WM then? A 308, 30-06, etc. would be just as good and cheaper.
You also state the 300 WM as being unweildly with a 26" barrel for most uses. Can you elaborate on what uses you have in mind? Were talking about a LR platform, not a urban set-up or something for kicking in doors with. In my opinion laying on my belly or in hide from 500m and beyond (your stated purpose) I see no reason why a 20", 22", 24", or 26" barrel would matter. I will take the 26" barrel any day if it means I can connect with a target at 1,200m if the chance presents itself, instead of wishing I hadn't cut the barrel down and my new max range being something less, and leaving the shot to chance. I carried a M24 around for 16 months in Afghanistan with a 24" barrel and I personally didn't have a problem with that length. I used it from close engagements to distant ones and it handled everything fine, if the barrel was 2" longer I cant see that it would have bothered or hindered me at all. I would rather carry around a few extra inches of barrel and not need it, than be confronted in a situation where the extra barrel length and increased effective range in a LR platform would be desired but not there because I shaved a few inches off for kicking in doors (not the intended purpose anyways) or to save a few ounces on weight.
John,
I'm tracking. I grew up on the line so never spent any time in a hide site waiting for the shot. I have dabbled in true long range, like the 18th ABN Corps Sniper Comp in 91? (2nd place team) and SniperCraft around the same time, but am comfortable I know my limits. At range I'd say I have enough "flat range" knowledge of sniping to have a discussion, but wouild not pretend to be an expert. I know more about planning support then planning at the sniper team level.
Did that even make sense?
My primary range statement reflects more the ranges availble to me localy than the full range I want to use it at in training classes. Getting out to 1200 or more is an objective, but until I ditch the day job something low in priority.
I had a few discussions on this topic today and still forming/refining my opnions. Some of the issues I've stated me just be MY rifle set up. I've used others that I liked more with similure barrels. Like many things you have to find a balance of many times conflecting options to achieve your objective. Again in MY case this is a training/test rifle not a duty one. That said the information in general is useful. If we actualy had a real gun shop around this forsaken post it would help.
Again I'm in the listening mode, for those with better experiance to educate, nots of good points.
Give this article a read.
"As a result of their tests, Tac Ops decided not to go below 22 inches on their .300 Win. Mag. tactical precision rifle, the Alpha 66. According to Mike Rescigno, President of Tac Ops, the 22-inch barrel is ideal for the tactical shooters that are going to use the 190-grain Federal Match ammo. There isn't any loss of performance by going to the 22-inch barrel and this round. The Alpha 66 still provides 1/4-MOA or better accurac"
http://www.tacticaloperations.com/swatdec2000/index.html
.308 will do 1K with accuracy unless you use too short a barrel.
20's are too short with all but a very few loads or really pushing pressures. You won't know without testing them.
24 should do any reasonable load to 1K
If you want real accuracy you need to be supersonic at your maximum range (plus a bit to allow a margin for conditions) with the load you want.
Lots of guys use that article to support short barrel long range .308's and it really does not such thing.
20 inch .308's should get to 800ish with most loads.
Once you start getting subsonic your accuracy drops. The different BC's of projectiles, slightly different speeds causes group splitting and other behaviour which drops your accuracy right back. Some projectiles may be "ok" but it really depends on what you call accurate and what you want to hit.
I've yet to see anyone getting down to MOA accuracy having gone subsonic. 2MOA or so, yes but that does not interest me much.
If you want to be just hitting stuff then it likely does not matter a great deal for you.
I wouldn't bother with a.300wm till you are past 800.
Call me old fashioned...as I would stick with the 26 inch barrel for a .300 Mag and a 24 incher for a .308 Win. on heavy barrelled rifles. I just like to attain the target velocity without having to hot rod the loads.
For lighter hunting style rifles where I'm trying to avoid excess rifle weight, give me a 22 inch featherweight contour on the .308 Win. I could be happy with a 20 inch barrel, too, as long as it shoots decent groups.
20 inch .308's should get to 800ish with most loads.
I have not seen a 20 inch .308 that wont do that. My daughters rifle is nothing special and at 14.5 it does it in boring fashion. I hope she gets to try it at 1000yds this summer, it was not meant for this I am just curious to see if it falls apart the last 200yds.
The 300wm is better with a longer barrel. Velocity is important and the only reason I did one short is for tree stand work and easy carrying in woods. I shared my info to show how my two 300wm compare with 6 inch barrel difference. It is a big difference but even at 20 inch the 300wm looks like it is going to be very effective.
Alpha Sierra
03-31-11, 18:09
Call me old fashioned...as I would stick with the 26 inch barrel for a .300 Mag and a 24 incher for a .308 Win. on heavy barrelled rifles. I just like to attain the target velocity without having to hot rod the loads.
+1
I would make an exception on canned 308s down to 22"
...
20 inch .308's should get to 800ish with most loads.
...
What happens with the loads that "don't?" Do the bullets just fall out of the air at 800? Even at a very conservative 2500fps MV from the 20" barrel a 175SMK should be above transonic velocities at 800. 800 yards for a 20" 308 should be no problem at all.
I have no problem holding an IPSC plate at 1000yds with my 18" krieger barreled 308. I primarily shoot 175SMK. Last summer I shot to 1200yds with it.
Now, this will only be happening on days when the conditions are perfect however. With the heavy south dakota winds, it is not uncommon to have a 2-3 mil hold at 1000yds. When the wind is blowing like that, my hit percentage goes from 95% down to about 60%... and it takes all I can muster to manage that.
While a short barreled 308 can shoot at distance... it certainly doesn't do it with authority. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It is a remarkable learning tool though... as you really need to be on your game to make hits when the wind is blowing.
A 308 shooting 155 vld's up around 3000fps out of a 28" barrel will REALLY show you what a 308 is capable of. So, just realize your limitations, and your rifles.
Guys remember a .308 is still just a .308. It is out of wind at 800 to say nothing of 1K. That being said I shoot long range and do it with a .308 in matches out to 800 yards. My rifle has a 22" barrel and is on it's last legs. When it is re-barreled it will be at 20".
I was helping a buddy out with his dope 2 weeks ago. He was shooting a 17" .308 and making head shots @ 700 with minimal effort under nice conditions.
The shorter you go the harder it is to control so a break or a can is recommended not so much for recoil, but to minimize jump and get back on target.
Factory ammo will also limit your options as most .308 factory ammo is pretty anemic so if you shoot FGMM in a 26" barrel PSS you're getting the same performance out of a 22" barrel with moderate hand loads.
Alpha Sierra
04-02-11, 13:09
Guys remember a .308 is still just a .308. It is out of wind at 800 to say nothing of 1K.
I am assuming you are talking about factory loads and short barrels.
Because my Palma handloads are nowhere near out of wind at 800 yards, and still have enough ass to make it to 1000 in style provided I pay attention to the wind.
It does take a 30" tube to take full advantage of the charge to get those Lapua 155s trucking at 2990 fps.
I am assuming you are talking about factory loads and short barrels.
Because my Palma handloads are nowhere near out of wind at 800 yards, and still have enough ass to make it to 1000 in style provided I pay attention to the wind.
It does take a 30" tube to take full advantage of the charge to get those Lapua 155s trucking at 2990 fps.
You have to admit that Palma is a different animal completely though. I would dare 99% of shooters to make first or second round hits with a .308 on an IPSC target at 1K and something tells me I wouldn't pay off too often! Under the best of conditions I can do this at 800.
Alpha Sierra
04-02-11, 18:58
I would dare 99% of shooters to make first or second round hits with a .308 on an IPSC target at 1K and something tells me I wouldn't pay off too often! Under the best of conditions I can do this at 800.
Oh, I'm tracking with you there.
IIRC both USPSA and IDPA targets are 18" across. Yep, not that many can reliably get that on the first shot. I usually can't unless it's dead calm.
but to minimize jump and get back on target.
If it's jumping around... then you have not built NPA correctly. I shoot short 308's without the issue you mention. The only time it happens is when I'm not paying attention to my position behind the rifle.
Yep, not that many can reliably get that on the first shot. I usually can't unless it's dead calm.
Not that many can do it, because not that many put in the time required to do so. I can do it about 80% of the time with my 18" 308 so long as the wind is below 10mph. Just because you cannot do a thing, doesn't mean it is not achievable or even commonplace. You guys really need to stop speaking in absolutes when it comes to shooting. The 308win, with newer powders and newer bullets, has completely re-written the "laws" of old. Go watch some palma shooters or F-class guys run their 308's. Don't sit here and try to tell me that a bullet with a .500 BC flying at 3000fps won't get to 1000yds with authority. 18" target is just shy of 1moa, and this is BORING at 1000 if there is little to no wind. Introduce a 5mph crosswind and things start to get sporting. Introduce a 10mph wind... and it gets very difficult.
If you want to argue the point, I expect you to give me the data disproving what I've said. I, and others have put the work in on 308's via thousands of rounds of handloads and even more money in barrels and rifles to "know" rather than just read on the internet and regurgitate when the topic comes up.
Just please remember that F-class and Palma use some damn big targets. It comes down to what do you want to hit and how many rounds do you want to use to hit it.
I shoot unknown distance tactical matches without flags and sighters and I can compete at the regional level without embarrassing myself too badly with a .308 when I'm shooting against just about anything. My .308 gives up a lot beyond 500 yards in this arena.
Please don't confuse the uneducated by thinking the .308 is a hammer at 1K because Palma lives there. 30" tubes, tight chambers, and a target the size of a barn door may be factors.... I respect these guys greatly but their rifles are a lot like BR. Very effective, but somewhat limited.
First round hits on man sized targets is what I measure myself by and the conditions change that range a lot. Some days that's 800 (Good Days!) and that drops to 500 when mother nature decides not to play nice. There is no actual range a weapons system is effective to in long range shooting. That depends on the system and the shooter as a combined team.
This is a published document from the Army discussing this very thing 12 years ago. This doesn't address everything we're talking about here, but is an excellent resource for actually putting rounds on target and dispels most of the myth surrounding the .308 hit probability.
I'm sure our friends at Knights can chime in on this as well.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/long-shot_photos/Picture4-1.png (http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/long-shot_photos/Picture4-1.png\)
http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA367672&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
I'm not even a fan of .308, I prefer stuff in the 6.5mm family out of a .308 based case. That said, I've seen lots of excellent .308 shooters at matches, and I've lost to more than a few of them in the past. I've seen guys with .308s make first round hits at 1000+ more than a few times. How do they do it? It's simple; they are good shooters and know how to do what they're doing.
Does this mean the .308 is ideal for long range? Hell no. It wouldn't be my first, second, or fifth choice for a long range event, but the people saying it's "out of gas" by 800 yards make me laugh.
Please don't confuse the uneducated by thinking the .308 is a hammer at 1K because Palma lives there.
The uneducated are easily confused. I don't live my life trying to appease them.
My point is that the only way to know what a cartridge is capable of is to do the work for yourself with a given rifle. By doing so, you will not only KNOW what few do, you will also grow as a shooter. This is especially true when trying to work past 800yds with a 308win.
It's rewarding, and if anyone reading this has not done it... it will be difficult for you to talk intelligently about the subject until you do. Reality lives in the real world... not on forums.
I've yet to see a .308 that cannot accuratly shoot 1K with proper loads and a reasonable barrel length.
Thousands do it every weekend here. I learnt long range shooting full bore (iron sights and sling) at 1K getting beaten by old guys.
I don't see how people can claim it can't do it accurately.
That's simply not true. Maybe you should get out and go watch those of us who do it?
Also note the name of this forum, if you are not looking for MOA or lower sized groups why are you here?
Any of you able to shot groups getting close to this at 1K from a short barrel .308? 10 shots of course. I wouldn't mind seeing your load data too ;)
Anyone can "hit stuff". 2MOA is easy. When you drop below subsonic you split groups and have assorted other problems.
If you don't know you are not doing it or your "target" is simply too big for you to be learning.
Lucky I didn't mention those of us shooting .223 out to 1k...
Just please remember that F-class and Palma use some damn big targets.
Mate, that's just SUCH a silly thing to say. What size is the x and 10 ring? What scores are people shooting with the .308?
I bet your "target" is far larger than any winning score.
It comes down to what do you want to hit and how many rounds do you want to use to hit it.
Yes it does and until you learn to shoot out there with the rest of us you shouldn't comment. If you can't do 1K with a .308 your barrel is too short, your load is wrong or you simply need to learn.
I shoot unknown distance tactical matches without flags and sighters and I can compete at the regional level without embarrassing myself too badly with a .308 when I'm shooting against just about anything. My .308 gives up a lot beyond 500 yards in this arena.
I can pick short range matches and do really well as well. That does not make me a good shooter. You are "cheating" like most do. "I don't want to learn how to read range so I will use a flatter shooting rifle" which is great IF you always want to be limited by your lack of ability. What happens when you move out past 1k? You need those skills you didn't bother to learn.
Please don't confuse the uneducated by thinking the .308 is a hammer at 1K because Palma lives there. 30" tubes, tight chambers, and a target the size of a barn door may be factors.... I respect these guys greatly but their rifles are a lot like BR. Very effective, but somewhat limited.
Go shoot F class short range and see how you stack up. You will see quite a few normal .308's as this all you need to make 1K. You are trying to say something is not possible yet WE do it every weekend.
The only "long" barrel .308's I've used were for sight radius.
This silly stuff about target size should stop. It's showing you don't know much at all about the sport.
First round hits on man sized targets is what I measure myself by and the conditions change that range a lot. Some days that's 800 (Good Days!) and that drops to 500 when mother nature decides not to play nice. There is no actual range a weapons system is effective to in long range shooting. That depends on the system and the shooter as a combined team.
You could learn a lot and become a MUCH better shooter if you took some time and woke up a bit. I know most if not all of the old guys at my FB club would easily do what you are doing with "iron" sights and a sling. It's not that hard. The only skill you have over them is possibly distance reading and by your posts it looks like you are skipping that as much as you can.
Right on AJS. This is precisely why I tell people to spend most of their time shooting a 308. It is the best skill-builder out there.
the_fallguy
04-04-11, 10:10
This is ridiculous, guys. Long-shot is one of the most gifted long range shooters that I have ever met. He has more time behind a precision rifle than any one else I know. He also has the respect of some of the "big names" in the long range industry.
Suggesting that he is a novice is making you look like the ones who are inexperienced (to those of us who know him). The chest beating here is an embarrassment...
... yet here you are beating your chest, and propping up a buddy too, and all the while not contributing one thing to the topic.
Seems to me he defended his position quite well before you came along. I agree with most everything he's said. That doesn't mean a discussion wouldn't benefit some people.
AJS went on the attack, and that is fine. I could care less what other people shoot, nor do I have anything to prove to anyone here. If people would read the information provided on forums in a take it or leave it fashion this stupid bickering bullshit would never happen.
What is better? A thread where one viewpoint is shared? Or a thread where all viewpoints are shared? I contend the latter.
The best answer to nearly every question asked on these forums is: "Go find out for yourself." Yet we don't do that because everyone likes sharing "their" way. I doubt long-shot needed you to come defend him if he is who you say he is.
Now, you have anything to contribute to the discussion on barrel lengths and accuracy at range? Any personal experience to share?
The art of long distance shooting is being able to pull the trigger accurately enough to hit the target at 1000yds and to be able to judge the wind sufficiently to consistently stay on the target. These same principals apply to shooting at any distance.
Shooting information is available for all calibers, bullet weights etc. Once a shooter knows his rifle/bullet/velocity combination there should be no difference to the shooter between different calibers at any distance – certain issues are well known about each caliber (drop, wind), and the rest require knowledgeable decisions by the shooter (the drop, doping the wind). A .308 bullet isn’t any more unsuited for 1K than a 6.5 or 7mm as long as the shooter knows its parameters.
It seems to me that the length of the barrel is essentially irrelevant, so long as the bullet’s muzzle velocity is sufficient to keep it supersonic at 1000 yds. The fact that a bullet goes subsonic does not necessarily make it inaccurate. When the bullet falls through the transonic zone to sub speed of sound, it is prone to start tumbling as it goes through the transonic zone. If it can make it through the zone without tumbling, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be stable. The people who shoot 1K seriously study this to no end and analyze the depth of the rifling, spin of and length of the bullet, thickness of the bullet’s plating, and even the Yaw of Repose to see how it reacts as it goes through the transonic zone. Go here to view a discussion by Bryan Litz who seems to be the guru about this stuff. Also, there are guys who are shooting accurately hundreds of yards beyond the transonic zone. So, the bullet isn’t necessarily going to fall from the sky as it goes subsonic. http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php?showtopic=13415&st=75
An NRA target is based on MOA. A long distance target (1K target) has an X ring that is one MOA, the 10 ring is 2 MOA and the 9 ring is 3 MOA. One MOA = 0.01047/ yard. That means one MOA at 100 yds = 1.047. At 1000yds one MOA = 10.47’. In the long range target, the X ring at 1000 yds is 10 inches, and the 10 ring is 20 inches. The entire black ball is 44’ in diameter out to the 8 ring. NRA long range/Palma do not shoot at “damn big” targets. To hit an X-ring, you need to shot 1 MOA at 1K. To win, you need to hit the 20” 10-ring first time, every time and most of the time the X ring as well. The winning score at Camp Perry last summer in the Wimbledon Cup (1K any sight) was a 200 x 13x or something like that, which means that all shots were within 2 MOA. For prone unsupported shooting that’s pretty good.
The 44’ black ball is necessary for aperture sights (iron sights) in order to see the target and site the rifle. F class and open shooting use the same target, but through a 16 power scope, the size of the ball doesn’t mean much.
Palma shooters are required by the rules to use .308 155 grain bullets because history of the sport is based on military shooting. In addition to the aperture sights, shooters need long barrels to get the velocity to keep their bullets at speed to avoid the potential of tumbling and being more susceptible to wind. Seldom do you see a Palma shooter using his Palma rifle in a 1000 yd NRA contest. They mostly all switch to a 6.5 of some sort with 6.5x284 being the most popular. But, I always thought that this was not because the .308 bullet was any less inherently accurate, but that the 6.5 or 7mm bullets were more forgiving when mistakes in reading the wind were made.
It seems to me that the length of the barrel is essentially irrelevant, so long as the bullet’s muzzle velocity is sufficient to keep it supersonic at 1000 yds.
Barrel length = velocity in virtually every instance. Thus, barrel length is very relevant. Not only to keep it supersonic, but faster bullets of equal BC require less windage.
That's why its always a topic, because too short of barrel, and the bullet will not perform. Too long a barrel, and the rifle will be unwieldy.
These threads always come down to one thing: The OP not being able to make up his mind about what the goal of this rifle is to be. You can't have high performance out of a short barrel, and you can't have nice weight, balance, and handling out of a long barrel. No matter how long this conversation goes on, that fact will not change.
Well as usual around here this thread is painfully short on targets and long on opinions. Here is a target from a modified F-class match two weekends ago. The targets are marked in yardage and the unmarked is 700 yards. Not my best match, but about average. I finished 2nd if it matters.
I welcome any opinions but prefer targets to back up these opinions if that's possible.
If you actually measure these you'll find most are under an MOA and for the match I'm under MOA accuracy. That doesn't mean I'm under an MOA at 1K consistently.... CONSISTENTLY is the key word.
100 yards
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/long-shot_photos/DSCN1579.jpg
300-700 yards
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/long-shot_photos/DSCN1580.jpg
I'm limited by my location when it comes to matches. I've got to drive a long ways to get in on them usually. That being said, last year there was one I attended and scored 1st place out of 20+ guys.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62414
1200yds, 8 out of 10 with 18" 308.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2010/IMG_0140.JPG
1000yds, 9 out of 10 with 18" 308.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2010/IMG_4573.JPG
750yds, 5 out of 5 with 18" 308. Group was just over 5".
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2010/IMG_0154.JPG
560yds, 8 out of 10. I went 6 for 6 on the chest, then switched to the head, and went 2 for 4. This was in a 25-35mph wind. ... again 18" 308.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2011/IMG_5252.JPG
Here's the rifle:
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2010/IMG_0145.JPG
So as for consistently, I guess it depends on what size of target, but I'm at least an 80% shooter on IPSC at 1000yds most of the time. ... and believe me, we have some FIERCE wind almost every day up here in south dakota. Now I've got my off days too, but it is made up for by the really good days. I've got the distance to shoot, and the round count to keep my skills up. So while I don't know what you are capable of with your rifles, I know what I'm capable of with mine.
You have every bit as much right to share your opinion as I do mine. If you intend to claim that my opinion isn't anchored in experience... go ahead and give it a try.
You have every bit as much right to share your opinion as I do mine. If you intend to claim that my opinion isn't anchored in experience... go ahead and give it a try.
If you recall correctly I never questioned your experience or capability. You questioned mine prior to posting some pics. I also like match photos when possible because it's a little different shooting in any match instead of just shooting in your range and calling it gospel! Too easy to just snap whatever photo you want and call it consistent and repeatable like those 1/2 MOA rifles we "hear" about so often and rarely see.
Don't be too quick to say you can't go to matches because of your location if you question those who do and finish well enough to place. Notice I haven't posted a photo of my pretty rifle showing how good I am because of how much money I've spent on my rig. I can post that too if you'd like, but it won't improve my groups much!
As a general principal, Orkan, you are right.
The purpose of my post is that if the shooter knows his system, he'll know that a slower bullet might use more wind, but the shooter can cope with that fact and still be accurate at any distance. Also, a heavier, bigger bullet with higher BC going slower from a shorter barrel is just as efficient as a faster bullet with a lower BC going faster. It seems all relative to me, and any knowledgeable shooter can make up his mind about the combination of barrel length, caliber, bullet, muzzle velocity and accuracy to meet his goals. Barrel length/Muzzle velocity aren't the only important factors in my mind.
It also seems to me that both Orkan and LongShot have decidedly made up their minds about their shooting systems and both just as decidedly know how to read the wind, as both have posted excellent results. My compliments to each.
Notice I haven't posted a photo of my pretty rifle showing how good I am because of how much money I've spent on my rig. I can post that too if you'd like, but it won't improve my groups much!
Stop being so insecure. So because I post a picture of a rifle, I'm automatically a good shooter? Where the hell did I say that?
I don't give a shit about money spent on rifles. I've got $11,000 into some... and $100 into others. All I ask of them is that they shoot good. If they don't they get money dumped on them until they do, or they get sold.
You go on about no targets being posted... and everyone having opinions but no proof of action or some shit... so I post targets. Oh, they weren't from a match... so they don't count?
How far you travel to your matches? I've got to drive more than 300 miles to get to a match in most cases. I'm more interested in spending the day shooting rather than driving. I at least 3 times a week if not more, and I do it in my yard. So you go ahead and keep thinking that nobody can possibly have skill unless they go to matches. It doesn't bother me.
The picture to show that the targets were shot with a short barreled 308. NOTHING MORE. If you want to measure dicks just say so... I can go on as long as you want.
Nope... I think you did a find job of showing your position without my help.
The sad thing is that you're obviously an accomplished shot, but the question is how much barrel and how far. The average person isn't you and doesn't have your experience or ability so remember your audience and forget about impressing the gun store crowd.
I still think the average good marksmen with a .308 can make man sized hits with one or two rounds out to 800 yards under good conditions.
It seems all relative to me, and any knowledgeable shooter can make up his mind about the combination of barrel length, caliber, bullet, muzzle velocity and accuracy to meet his goals. Barrel length/Muzzle velocity aren't the only important factors in my mind.
Indeed! :) The rifle pictured above weighs 19lbs! Imagine how much heavier it would be with an additional 6" of barrel... then stick the suppressor on the end and you would need 2 people to carry it around. haha!
That is exactly the point I have been trying to make. It's always the same questions being asked by the new guys that don't have the knowledge to answer the questions for themselves. They don't have the knowledge, because they spend more time reading forums like this than they do shooting. If they'd just go shoot, they would progress naturally in their own time and at their own pace.
As for being decided on my system... nothing could be farther from the truth. The conversation was in regard to barrel lengths and their effectiveness at X range, so I simply produced information in that was relevant. The decisions on what to shoot in a certain situation or at a certain range plague me daily. However, I make the choices myself and learn using actual data I gather myself while shooting, and let me assure you of one thing: While my short barreled 308 shoots VERY well, and I am very competent with it... I'd rather have my 338LM for shooting at 1000yds. :)
The average person isn't you and doesn't have your experience or ability so remember your audience and forget about impressing the gun store crowd.
Exactly. This is PRECISELY why I maintain my position on short 308's, and it doesn't have a damn thing to do with the "gun store crowd."
Please tell me which is more benefit to a new shooter:
1) A laser beam style gun that requires less than 1 mil hold in a 20mph 9:00 wind.
2) A slower, more portable rifle, that needs about 3 mils hold in a 20mph 9:00 wind.
I contend it is #2. That rifle will teach the shooter VOLUMES more, and in a shorter period of time than the rifle in #1. You learn more from misses than you do hits, and if someone is asking the barrel length question, they NEED to learn more.
So who's forgetting the audience here?
The sad thing is that you're obviously an accomplished shot
I don't think this is sad at all. :) ... but its not magic... just 20 years or so of dedicating myself to shooting.
I don't think this is sad at all. :) ... but its not magic... just 20 years or so of dedicating myself to shooting.
Wasn't your marksmanship I was questioning.
I'm aware of that. You keep taking shots at me... but you aren't going to get under my skin. It is entertaining though!
The fact that a bullet goes subsonic does not necessarily make it inaccurate. When the bullet falls through the transonic zone to sub speed of sound, it is prone to start tumbling as it goes through the transonic zone. If it can make it through the zone without tumbling, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be stable.
IF you can get them to break through all at the same point. Differing BC's and speeds means this does not happen so your groups enlarge or split.
....
So, the bullet isn’t necessarily going to fall from the sky as it goes subsonic. http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php?showtopic=13415&st=75
ULR stuff tends to be done with much better projectiles. Closer BC round per round which gets rid of some of the issues.
There are quite a few comps where the .308 is used.
Well as usual around here this thread is painfully short on targets and long on opinions. Here is a target from a modified F-class match two weekends ago. The targets are marked in yardage and the unmarked is 700 yards. Not my best match, but about average. I finished 2nd if it matters.
What you shoot does not match what you say.
I welcome any opinions but prefer targets to back up these opinions if that's possible.
It's not "opinion" it's FACT. You can view match results online all you want to see many, many thousands are doing what you can't.
If you recall correctly I never questioned your experience or capability. You questioned mine prior to posting some pics.
*I* questioned you as what you are saying is simply not true.
The fact is what you hold as an opinion on the .308 is incorrect. We shoot out to 1200 over here in some matches. 1K is NORMAL.
Thousands do it. No issues with proper loads.
If we can do it, why can't you?
Are you shooting too short a barrel, wrong load or is the issue you?
If you can think of some other reason we can all do something you can't then let me know.
Oh, again back to that target size comment by you....
AJS,
You certainly have opened my eyes and I feel wiser for your input. I shall go back and try harder to achieve what others do every day. I only hope you're available in the future to help me with my shortcomings.
Do you actually have any targets or just a keyboard? If you're half as good with a rifle then I'm sure to be impressed!
Just because a .308 can make hits doesn't make it effective.
AJS -
A question: if I shoot a 190 SMK at 2550 ft/sec at 1500 ft altitude, it should go subsonic somewhere between 1150 and 1200 yds. Assume the same BC per bullet and a SD of 10 or so, why can't the bullets enter the transonic zone at the same time and be accurate beyond 1200 yds. I thought once a bullet entered the subsonic zone and if it remained stable, then the same wind / drop calculations apply as to a supersonic bullet. Am I wrong here?
I think you are right as between different calibers or bullet weights, etc, but I made my statement based on the same bullet/velocity combo.
Are you saying your 1200 shots are supersonic at 1200 yds?
Are you in Europe?
No dog in this fight, but an interesting subject.
Thanks.
Mate, stop being silly. I'm not here for a p!ssing contest. Even IF you can "beat" me what difference does it make? You need someone who can "beat" you to come and tell you the same facts before you can accept it? Really?
Go look at match results, what YOU can't do WE are and HAVE been for a very long time. The fact is the .308 IS "effective" at 1K. There is no doubt about it. Not sure why you can't manage but we certainly can. You know I learnt long range at 1K with sling and iron's. Maybe you can go do some target pulling and see if you can tell who is using a .308 ;)
The BC changes bullet to bullet in addition to other factors you can and do get group splitting. Some projectiles are worse than others.
I am in Australia :) We have a couple of matches that shoot out that far.
I have yet to see any "normal" bullet keep around 1MOA after going subsonic. I'm sure some of the more expensive ones will but I certainly don't know anyone over here who buys them at the prices we have to pay.
I would really like to see it though and I am not being sarcastic.
Mate, stop being silly. I'm not here for a p!ssing contest. Even IF you can "beat" me what difference does it make? You need someone who can "beat" you to come and tell you the same facts before you can accept it? Really?
Go look at match results, what YOU can't do WE are and HAVE been for a very long time. The fact is the .308 IS "effective" at 1K. There is no doubt about it. Not sure why you can't manage but we certainly can. You know I learnt long range at 1K with sling and iron's. Maybe you can go do some target pulling and see if you can tell who is using a .308 ;)
Well I have to admit that I wait to see who consistently beats me prior to listening to their information. There are far two many opinions in the firearms world with dreadfully little experience.
What I've gleaned from your comments are that you're current or prior military with some classic marksmanship background. I'm guessing our version of service rifle and that is a good start.
You lose ground when you don't post any results and claim thousands do it every day. I hate to break it to you but I compete almost monthly and there is a small group that consistently beats me in tactical type matches and when you give them a .308 instead of a better ballistic caliber that number drops to only a few. So your thousands of service, bench rest, and tactical shooters really isn't true.
No you obviously have the opinion that the .308 is more effective than I do... Okay, fine.
Hell even orkan showed what he can do and it shows me no matter how obnoxious he may be he can shoot and knows the difference. He said it best. The .308 is capable to get you to 1K but if he spends time there he'd take his .338. So would I or a .260, 6.5 Creed, .243, 300 WM, 6.5-284, 7 WSM or any number of other calibers that really get you there with some wiggle room when you can't rely on wind flags, spotters, and people to pull your targets.
It's time for you to show me what you're capable of because your absolute approach to long range marksmanship smacks of inflexible behavior and that doesn't breed the best marksmen.
Hell even orkan showed what he can do and it shows me no matter how obnoxious he may be he can shoot and knows the difference. He said it best. The .308 is capable to get you to 1K but if he spends time there he'd take his .338.
Well it depends on what the situation is actually. If I must hit that target the first time, no questions asked... then the 338LM it is. However, if I'm just going out shooting and want to learn, then the 308 all the way. It's more fun to shoot, and I can see mistakes in my wind call better. Not to mention that I can shoot it 150 times in an afternoon and not get my shoulder tore to pieces.
The only real answer to this age old question of effective range:
The max effective range of a cartridge is not really about the cartridge as much as it is the combination of rifle/cartridge/shooter.
Well it depends on what the situation is actually. If I must hit that target the first time, no questions asked... then the 338LM it is. However, if I'm just going out shooting and want to learn, then the 308 all the way. It's more fun to shoot, and I can see mistakes in my wind call better. Not to mention that I can shoot it 150 times in an afternoon and not get my shoulder tore to pieces.
The only real answer to this age old question of effective range:
The max effective range of a cartridge is not really about the cartridge as much as it is the combination of rifle/cartridge/shooter.
Never thought I'd agree with you, but here I am. Truer words have never been spoken!
I love shooting my .308 and pushing the limits of what I can do with it. I love beating guys with comp specific calibers with my tired old .308, but I also know that if I needed to make a round count at 1K I wouldn't be pulling out a .308. I'm going with the best advantage available... Air strike isn't the worst idea!
Well I have to admit that I wait to see who consistently beats me prior to listening to their information.
Then look at match results and pick someone who keeps beating your scores using a .308. It's easy as there as so very many doing it.
There are far two many opinions in the firearms world with dreadfully little experience.
Why can many, many of us do something you can't? It's not an "opinion". WE do it.
What I've gleaned from your comments are that you're current or prior military with some classic marksmanship background. I'm guessing our version of service rifle and that is a good start.
You lose ground when you don't post any results and claim thousands do it every day.
Go look at the match results!! I don't "claim" ANYTHING. This is what is going on. This is what WE do. You cannot keep ignoring the fact you have a way to check this but refuse. Why won't you go look?
I don't "lose ground" by not playing games with you. You have the ability to check the facts and refuse. Is your opinion so much more important than being accurate about something?
I hate to break it to you but I compete almost monthly and there is a small group that consistently beats me in tactical type matches and when you give them a .308 instead of a better ballistic caliber that number drops to only a few. So your thousands of service, bench rest, and tactical shooters really isn't true.
Mate, you have not even looked and REALLY have no idea. WE are, WE do. EVERY weekend. This goes on. WE manage. I am seeing why you can't but don't push your opinion if you can't even cope with checking if you are right. Maybe it's time you moved to a more competitive environment and learn from those who ARE able to do what you can't?
It sounds to me like you are coasting and the guys around you are in similar positions.
No you obviously have the opinion that the .308 is more effective than I do... Okay, fine.
Me and many, many thousands ARE doing something you cannot.
.308 does 1K FINE. Simple as that.
Hell even orkan showed what he can do and it shows me no matter how obnoxious he may be he can shoot and knows the difference.
and you changed your story and refused to accept it as it was not in a match and didn't count. I said "go look at the match results"
and you won't yet keep making the claim.
He said it best. The .308 is capable to get you to 1K but if he spends time there he'd take his .338.
In CONTEXT was he not talking about a short barrel .308?
Are we not talking about your claims about the .308 VS the FACT we use it every weekend to do what you can't?
So would I or a .260, 6.5 Creed, .243, 300 WM, 6.5-284, 7 WSM or any number of other calibers that really get you there with some wiggle room when you can't rely on wind flags, spotters, and people to pull your targets.
Which really is just a diversion from the topic here. You saying it does not do something WE do. With no issue.
It's time for you to show me what you're capable of because your absolute approach to long range marksmanship smacks of inflexible behavior and that doesn't breed the best marksmen
It's time for you to go look at the match results and grow up.
I am not interested in having a p!ssing match with some random from the internet. What I AM interested in doing is correcting someone who is posting information which is not factual.
You have refused to go look and SEE this is what is going on.
Then attempted to back peddle from your original post.
WE use the .308 at 1K. What you cannot manage. You have nothing to teach me..
Mate, just go check match results. This is silly. We do this every weekend. No problems. Why can't you? Is it EASIER with something more powerful? for sure BUT in the end the guy who can shoot wins. Not the guy with the biggest gun.
Soooooo.........
We seem to have digressed alittle bit here.
Points:
1. .308 can get you out to 1000 meters and in certain conditions beyound. Other calibers might do a better job within a given set of variables (which are many).
2. Those who shoot more and in better quality will do better than those that don't. (one of the variables)
3. DUTY rifles typicaly are not going to be shooting handloads with the secret snot hand loads that will shoot sub MOA groups out of my particular rifle. (another variable)
Come on guys, please. Barrels, Barrel Leangths and Muzzle breaks was the title. I suppose that I wasn't specific enough in my orgianl post about the general envelope I'm looking at.
1. Performance with factory loaded ammo out to "A" maximuim range determined barrel length/muzzle veloacity/BC of said factory ammo. I.E. how much am I losing for effective range if I take 4" of barrel off of a 26" barrel in .300WM or take 4" (or more) off of a 24" inch .308.
2. What is the most effective muzzle brake to use on a .308 and a .300WM? Preferably one that is suppressor compatable. Effectiveness is measured an increased ablity to self spot.
3. Are the handling charicteristics of a shorter barrel (balance, weight, swing) worthy compromises for any decreases in max effective range, defined as the ablity to achieve a 90% first round hit on a E-Type target at range X.
Lessions learned from Palma and High Power are great, but are not always a one to one relationship with "field shooting" disciplines.
Thanks
Was out shooting today... and days like this clearly illustrate the limitations of the short 308's as well as my deficiencies as a shooter.
I put a 2/3 size IPSC out at 864yds. target is 12" wide and 16" tall, including its 4" head. Took me 4 rounds to get my first hit. It was overcast, with a switching wind from 6:00 to 8:00 and from 5mph to 15mph. Mirage was invisible, and I was shooting in a bare field so no other wind indicators were present. My shooting position was shielded from the wind by some trees, so I couldn't get a "feel" for it either. Once I found the plate, I went about 70% after that for 50rnds total. I consider this very piss poor.
Days like this really put a fine point on what a 175gr SMK going 2550fps is capable of... and not capable of.
Soooooo.........
We seem to have digressed alittle bit here.
Points:
1. .308 can get you out to 1000 meters and in certain conditions beyound. Other calibers might do a better job within a given set of variables (which are many).
2. Those who shoot more and in better quality will do better than those that don't. (one of the variables)
3. DUTY rifles typicaly are not going to be shooting handloads with the secret snot hand loads that will shoot sub MOA groups out of my particular rifle. (another variable)
Come on guys, please. Barrels, Barrel Leangths and Muzzle breaks was the title. I suppose that I wasn't specific enough in my orgianl post about the general envelope I'm looking at.
1. Performance with factory loaded ammo out to "A" maximuim range determined barrel length/muzzle veloacity/BC of said factory ammo. I.E. how much am I losing for effective range if I take 4" of barrel off of a 26" barrel in .300WM or take 4" (or more) off of a 24" inch .308.
The modern powders allow for less barrel than the old days, but you can easily cut a .308 down to 20" and still be as effective as the old 24" .308's with factory ammo. The new'ish offerings from Corbon and Lapua can get you close to the limits of ammo accuracy.
2. What is the most effective muzzle brake to use on a .308 and a .300WM? Preferably one that is suppressor compatable. Effectiveness is measured an increased ablity to self spot.
I've found two muzzle breaks that work really well and I hate shooting next to. The little/big bastard breaks from APA are great and the FTE from Marty is nice. I'd personally go with the FTE because it doesn't have to be timed and can be removed easier to clean the crown.
3. Are the handling charicteristics of a shorter barrel (balance, weight, swing) worthy compromises for any decreases in max effective range, defined as the ablity to achieve a 90% first round hit on a E-Type target at range X.
The shorter the barrel the harder it is to control normally. I appreciate what others have said about NPA, but they're still a bigger hand full. Breaks and suppressors minimize this. Rifle weight is also a big factor. The heavier the gun the easier it is to control... just don't shoot off hand stages with it. Barrel lengths under 22" seem harder to control to me.
Lessions learned from Palma and High Power are great, but are not always a one to one relationship with "field shooting" disciplines.
Thanks
Hope it helps.
Barrel lengths under 22" seem harder to control to me.
That's because weight is removed from the muzzle end. It doesn't have to do with the barrel length, but the absence of weight. I shoot suppressed, so the weight goes back to where it would be if I had an extra 6" of heavy barrel.
As you pointed out... an 18lb rifle isn't exactly fun shooting without rigid support on the front end. Barricades, ladders, and such are ok, but when all I have for support is my sling while standing... I'm hating life.
I'll be going to a fast twist .243 with a titanium suppressor soon to resolve those issues.
Soooooo.........
We seem to have digressed alittle bit here.
I thought your answers were in the thread :)Points:
1. .308 can get you out to 1000 meters and in certain conditions beyound. Other calibers might do a better job within a given set of variables (which are many).
IF you pick a barrel length which allows it.
2. Those who shoot more and in better quality will do better than those that don't. (one of the variables)
3. DUTY rifles typicaly are not going to be shooting handloads with the secret snot hand loads that will shoot sub MOA groups out of my particular rifle. (another variable)
Many factory loads are as accurate as you need for long range .308
Come on guys, please. Barrels, Barrel Leangths and Muzzle breaks was the title. I suppose that I wasn't specific enough in my orgianl post about the general envelope I'm looking at.
1. Performance with factory loaded ammo out to "A" maximuim range determined barrel length/muzzle veloacity/BC of said factory ammo. I.E. how much am I losing for effective range if I take 4" of barrel off of a 26" barrel in .300WM or take 4" (or more) off of a 24" inch .308.
Which which load in which barrel? No one can say. SOME factory loads (which use canister grade powder) will have minimal loss.
Unless you have a slow barrel. What if those loads are not accurate in your gun? It's safe to say a short barrel .308 will get you to 750-800. Further IF you don't care about real accuracy.
2. What is the most effective muzzle brake to use on a .308 and a .
300WM? Preferably one that is suppressor compatable. Effectiveness is measured an increased ablity to self spot.
Any of them can be threaded by a gunsmith.
3. Are the handling charicteristics of a shorter barrel (balance, weight, swing) worthy compromises for any decreases in max effective range, defined as the ablity to achieve a 90% first round hit on a E-Type target at range X.
NO. Short barrels are the current fashiion item and nothing more. VERY few people have a real use or gain more than they give up.
Lessions learned from Palma and High Power are great, but are not always a one to one relationship with "field shooting" disciplines.
That's simply not true and these are not the only disciplines which use the .308 at long range. HP's limited to 155's isn't it? Which would likely explain the need for EVERYTHING they can get to push them along. Are you limited to these projectiles or can you pick something better?
Thanks
go for a 24 inch .308. If you find you "need" it shorter get it cut but you won't notice it.
Thanks guys I sort of got what I was looking for out of this. I went with the Surefire brake, but only took the barrel to 24" vs 22". It's off at the shop now for the chop, contouring and threading.
Thanks guys I sort of got what I was looking for out of this. I went with the Surefire brake, but only took the barrel to 24" vs 22". It's off at the shop now for the chop, contouring and threading.
I'm in the same delima as you, I went with a AAC, as I have a AAC 7.62SD can for another 308. I'm hoping the 7.62 Brakeout doesnt hurt accuracy, as I see allot of Surefires now on bolt rifles.
Soooooo.........
We seem to have digressed alittle bit here.
Points:
1. .308 can get you out to 1000 meters and in certain conditions beyound. Other calibers might do a better job within a given set of variables (which are many).
2. Those who shoot more and in better quality will do better than those that don't. (one of the variables)
3. DUTY rifles typicaly are not going to be shooting handloads with the secret snot hand loads that will shoot sub MOA groups out of my particular rifle. (another variable)
Come on guys, please. Barrels, Barrel Leangths and Muzzle breaks was the title. I suppose that I wasn't specific enough in my orgianl post about the general envelope I'm looking at.
1. Performance with factory loaded ammo out to "A" maximuim range determined barrel length/muzzle veloacity/BC of said factory ammo. I.E. how much am I losing for effective range if I take 4" of barrel off of a 26" barrel in .300WM or take 4" (or more) off of a 24" inch .308.
2. What is the most effective muzzle brake to use on a .308 and a .300WM? Preferably one that is suppressor compatable. Effectiveness is measured an increased ablity to self spot.
3. Are the handling charicteristics of a shorter barrel (balance, weight, swing) worthy compromises for any decreases in max effective range, defined as the ablity to achieve a 90% first round hit on a E-Type target at range X.
Lessions learned from Palma and High Power are great, but are not always a one to one relationship with "field shooting" disciplines.
Thanks
I'm not a expert, and I didnt stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but from my experiance, the 308 is fine down to 16", where the 300 WM needs the longer barrel, in all honesty, why would you want a 300WM for anything a 308 could do? Your using a long action, a round notarious for shorter barrel life, much more $$$ to shoot, and last one has a much harder kick. I bought my 308 to learn how to shoot long range for less $$$ than the other calibers. While I have a 300WM, and I love it, I shoot my 308 much, much more. I my plan is, to work up to a 338LM, but because of the $$$ involved my 308 and 300 will be around for a lot longer. Our range is built in a old wheat field, so we have the range out over a mile+, but for now I'm still shooting ISPC targets at 1000-1200, do I have pictures not yet, nothing anway to brag about.
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