Limited to 55gr SP for work, alternative to LE223T1?

[021411]

From what I gathered, LE223T1 is preferred. The price of $30+ for 20 rds is hard to swallow. I don't skimp out on work related equipment but when I have to buy it bulk, it's gonna add up. We have to make our own ammo purchase in my dept. Is there a more inexpensive but effective 55gr SP duty round that is worth buying that performs up to the LE223T1's standard?

[C4IGrant]

From what I gathered, LE223T1 is preferred. The price of $30+ for 20 rds is hard to swallow. I don't skimp out on work related equipment but when I have to buy it bulk, it's gonna add up. We have to make our own ammo purchase in my dept. Is there a more inexpensive but effective 55gr SP duty round that is worth buying that performs up to the LE223T1's standard?

Best value on the market: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=24448

C4

[021411]

Got them in the 55gr flavor? We're restricted to that. Don't ask why because I don't know and it's per policy.

[Belmont31R]

They make a 55GR Gold Dot....but Im not one to say its as good as the 64 either way.

[021411]

Other choices would be the Win Ranger 55gr SP (RA223R) and the Fed LE Tac TRU 55gr SP (T223A) which I haven't read much about both.

[C4IGrant]

Got them in the 55gr flavor? We're restricted to that. Don't ask why because I don't know and it's per policy.

I generally don't stock the 55gr version, but can order you a case if interested.


C4

[DocGKR]

Do NOT get the Win Ranger 55gr JSP (RA223R) or Fed LE Tac TRU 55gr SP (T223A)!!!

If the .223 LE223T1 Fed 55gr TBBC JSP is too expensive and a 55 gr JSP is required, get the 5.56mm Speer 55 gr Gold Dot.

[Ironman8]

Not the OP, but thanks for that post Doc...helps me out as well...although I am not limited to the 55 gr. and will probly just order the 64gr from Grant...

Is there such thing as a "decent" performing SP in the 30-50 cent per round range?

Thanks

[021411]

Do NOT get the Win Ranger 55gr JSP (RA223R) or Fed LE Tac TRU 55gr SP (T223A)!!!

If the .223 LE223T1 Fed 55gr TBBC JSP is too expensive and a 55 gr JSP is required, get the 5.56mm Speer 55 gr Gold Dot.

Sounds good Doc.. :cool:

[DocGKR]

"Is there such thing as a "decent" performing SP in the 30-50 cent per round range?"

Yes, the 55 & 64 gr Gold Dots are the least expensive decent performing ammo--they usually run around $0.55/cart here for agency purchase, while Fed 55 gr LE223T1 is more like $1.15/cart.

[7 RING]

Quote "Do NOT get the Win Ranger 55gr JSP (RA223R) or Fed LE Tac TRU 55gr SP (T223A)!!!"

OK....now you have my attention Doc. What is wrong with these rounds ?
___________________________________________________________________________________

Has anyone gathered statistical data on police shootings with 55g M193 ball ammunition fired from a 16" carbine? A prior service US Army surgeon told me he operated on several soldiers after a PFC went bonkers on the rifle range and shot several people with his M-16A1. He said the wounds on anyone hit from 15 yards to about 80 yards were really nasty.

If my memory serves me correctly a Sheriff's Deputy in cental Illinois shot an armed suspect with M193 ball about five years ago and it stopped the suspect rapidly. I didn't hear anything about what the Medical Examiner discovered at the autopsy and could not get my hands on any photos.

[ack495]

Quote "Do NOT get the Win Ranger 55gr JSP (RA223R) or Fed LE Tac TRU 55gr SP (T223A)!!!"

OK....now you have my attention Doc. What is wrong with these rounds ?
___________________________________________________________________________________

Has anyone gathered statistical data on police shootings with 55g M193 ball ammunition fired from a 16" carbine? A prior service US Army surgeon told me he operated on several soldiers after a PFC went bonkers on the rifle range and shot several people with his M-16A1. He said the wounds on anyone hit from 15 yards to about 80 yards were really nasty.

If my memory serves me correctly a Sheriff's Deputy in cental Illinois shot an armed suspect with M193 ball about five years ago and it stopped the suspect rapidly. I didn't hear anything about what the Medical Examiner discovered at the autopsy and could not get my hands on any photos.

So Im not Doc, but both rounds exhibit poor penetration through various common barriers. I would not feel good about my ammo if my department used these rounds. See penetration results from both manufacturers:

http://le.atk.com/pdf/223RifleDataBook_vol-1.pdf

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/catalog/2008LawEnforcementCatalog.pdf

In regards to M193, as Doc's research and other tests would show, its fragmentation is late, not consistent and does terrible against auto glass. There are much more reliable options out there.

[DocGKR]

What is right about them?

Did you read this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77192?

Did you take a look at the terminal performance of the T223A that ATK/Federal has published: http://le.atk.com/pdf/223RifleDataBook_vol-1.pdf?

Do the RA223R and T223A meet the terminal performance requirements as described here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22323 or in the description of an ideal duty rifle load as stated by SSA Buford Boone of the FBI BRF?

-- Penetration of 12 to 18 inches
-- No impact AOA induced variations
-- Blind to barriers
-- No deviation from shot line after impact
-- Minimal fragmentation
-- Consistent terminal performance from 0 – 300 meters
-- Sufficient accuracy to hit threat targets out to 600 meters

[7 RING]

One thing I have noticed about the listed Winchester round is that the soft point deforms when it is stripped out of my AR magazine and hits the feed ramp on the barrel extension. It makes the round fly through the air like a boat moving through water with a crashed hull and accuracy is unacceptable (for me) at distances beyond 100 yards.

[DocGKR]

It can also cause feeding malfunctions when you shoot 200-300+ rounds without getting a chance to clean the lead build-up off the feed ramps...

[Gewehr3]

Best value on the market: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=24448

C4

Do you have the 5.56 Gold Dot?

[C4IGrant]

Do you have the 5.56 Gold Dot?

Not in the 64gr. It is VERY Rare and have never actually seen it.



C4

[DocGKR]

Speer has recently discontinued the 5.56 mm 64 gr Gold Dot, as too many IDIOTS were trying to shoot the 5.56 mm load from crappy rifles with .223 chambers (think Bushmaster, DPMS, and other bottom feeder companies) and then trying to blame Speer for the resulting problems... The 55 gr Gold Dot is still being made in 5.56 mm.

I STRONGLY urge everyone to use a chamber reamer or gauge to ensure their carbine is actually a 5.56 mm chamber, irrespective of who made the weapon and what may be stamped on the barrel. We stick a 5.56 mm chamber reamer into EVERY rifle--you would be surprised at how many rifles do NOT have the correct 5.56 mm chamber, yet whenever their is a problem STUPID agencies/guys always want to blame the ammo when it is in fact their shitty, out of spec rifles...

[topgunpilot20]

What is right about them?

Did you read this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77192?

Did you take a look at the terminal performance of the T223A that ATK/Federal has published: http://le.atk.com/pdf/223RifleDataBook_vol-1.pdf?

Do the RA223R and T223A meet the terminal performance requirements as described here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22323 or in the description of an ideal duty rifle load as stated by SSA Buford Boone of the FBI BRF?

-- Penetration of 12 to 18 inches
-- No impact AOA induced variations
-- Blind to barriers
-- No deviation from shot line after impact
-- Minimal fragmentation
-- Consistent terminal performance from 0 – 300 meters
-- Sufficient accuracy to hit threat targets out to 600 meters

My department has been issuing the Winchester RA223R for the past few years and is now phasing it out to a Federal 62gr bonded JSP. Since they're trying to get rid of their current inventory, they gave me 800 rounds of the RA223R when I requested ammo for an upcoming CSAT rifle class. I have not been able to find any terminal performance information on this round, so I came searching this forum. Your quote above is the only reference I've been able to find specifically regarding the RA223R's terminal performance, but I'm not sure what it means. Are you stating that you have not tested this ammo, or that you have tested it and found it be unsatisfactory?

I'm trying to decide whether to hold on to the RA223R given to me and buy cheaper FMJ to waste on paper for the class or just go ahead and use it if it's not a good terminal ballistic performer anyway.

FWIW, I've heard of the feeding problems JSPs can induce during high round counts, and if I use it at the class, I plan to periodically switch between the JSPs and 500 rounds of FMJ that were also given to me to minimize the lead build up on the feed ramps.

[SWAT Lt.]

I'd go ahead and shoot it up in the class if it were me. It has very shallow penetration overall and is terrible against barriers. The good news is your new duty round is much better ammo, especially if it is the TBBC.

[bananaman]

Slight thread derail:

Picked up some of these:

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/images/1829.jpg

XM223SP1 62 gr bonded

because the price was just too good ($10/#20). I'm not LE, don't see myself really needing to use them but would like to have the option for good barrier penetration if needed, NOT HD/SD inside a house (have 556 TAP T2/MK262 for that). Is this false economy or is this decent, for the price? If not, I can just shoot them, reload the brass and pick up something better.

Thanks.

[DocGKR]

62gr XM223SP1/64 gr Gold Dot is fine general purpose ammo and I would also have no concerns using it indoors...

[topgunpilot20]

It is fine general purpose ammo and I would also have no concerns using it indoors...

Hey Doc, were you referring to the XM223SP1 that bananaman posted or the Winchester RA223R that I asked about at few posts above his?

[Todd.K]

That would not be the RA223R. If you look at the ATK link posted and compare the similar T223A 55gr soft point, non existent barrier performance against glass and all penetration depths below the recommended 12" minimum makes it a poor choice.

[topgunpilot20]

That would not be the RA223R. If you look at the ATK link posted and compare the similar T223A 55gr soft point, non existent barrier performance against glass and all penetration depths below the recommended 12" minimum makes it a poor choice.

Okay, thanks. I did not realize that the RA223R was similar to the T223A.

[DocGKR]

RA223R if a fine varmint load, but not so good against felons...