View Full Version : "titanium" plate fraud
I am a 18 yeaR LEO (currently a detective) in So Cal, and recently decided to put together an active shooter vest. I have a lot of shooting and armorer experience. Based on threat reasons I will not bore you with, I wanted it to be a hard plate vest. I have Colt 6920 for duty use, and take active shooter/terrorist threats seriously. If the call comes in, I will go. I found a vest carrier that would take my dept issued level IIIA soft armor, with hard plates pockets over those. I chose a set of 10x12 plates that were advertised as titanium level III stand alone. They were made by International Armor. The online vendor I was buying them from was a different company, but I looked at International Armor's website and they seemed "reputable", although I had no prior experience with their products. I bought the plates.
A short while later, I showed the plates to a guy I know who works for Kelly Space and Technology. He does r&d on armor, and I've seen stuff he built that will stop .50 BMG. He has a test facility and can shoot stuff for testing. I showed him my vest and he sadly informed me that my plates were not titanium. One of their materials specialists confirmed it. Thus began a big fight with the vendor. They did not want to refund my money and referred me to International Armor. I was furious and told them that they had taken my money, not IA. The conversation did not go well. I finally did call IA and talked to a sales guy. His final explanation was that they initially called the plates titanium, even though they weren't,and that "the name just kinda stuck, so we kept it for martketing". Holy @%*#! He also alluded to the plates being marketed to alot of overseas government military contracts. We finally worked out an agreement where I would return the plates to the vendor, and he would reimburse them. He tried to upgrade me at his cost to other plates, but I told him I did not trust anything they put out.
Before returning the plates, my friend and I shot them with some 147gr 7.62 NATO rounds. They were listed as level III stand alone, multi hit capability. The first round flattened and tore up the plates pretty well, but the the plate stopped it. Second round went right through. I sent the plates back and got credited. The staff at the vendor were much more agreeable than when I initially talked to them, but I had calmed down alot myself. One lesson I had learned was that if it seems to good a deal to be true...buyer beware. Especially if you really plan on taking the gear into harm's way.
Just wanted to inform other users that may be looking at armor.
Great info! Sounds like a little bit of contracting fraud going on. Makes you wonder how many millions there making off the military for their defective plates and even worse the lives there putting at risk! Personally, I'd be contacting another federal agency and relaying that info!
When I said he talked about selling to overseas government military contracts, I should have been more specific. He was talking about foreign government military. Doesn't make it any better, I know, but being a US military vet, I would've been even more pissed off than I was. My buddy at Kelly Space is also a vet, with Spec Ops experience. As it is, we've been debating contacting NIJ, as they set armor certification and testing standards.
http://www.internationalbodyarmor.com/BodyArmor/HardArmor/TitaniumPlate/ ?
Not telling you what they are made of is dodgy but if the vendor was marketing them as standalone they are the one's who screwed up. Says "in conjunction with a Level IIIA Vest." No doubt someone screwed up. Did they ever say what they were made of?
I would certainly not call this fraud. Slick marketing perhaps.
Does it stop the threat level or not? Meet size weight specs?
A company can call them ninja plates if they wish...
Clearly buyer unfamiliar with industry materials and practices. .25" titanium wouldn't stop any rifle threat and wouldn't weigh much.
I was trying to leave the vendor out of this but...look at the DSG Arms web site. These same plates are there, obviously International Armor, and they say "stand alone". Let me be clear that DSG has made good on the return of the plates.
As for the IA website listing the plates, they have since changed the wording on their website regarding the plates. It now says "titanium/steel" plates, which seems to mean a combination of. When i first looked at the IA website it said "titanium steel", which I took to mean just titanium. The materials and ballistic guys at KST told me that the plates appear to have been just been made of a high grade carbon steel. The IA web site also previously said "or in conjunction with level IIIA armor". The plates pictured have a different appearance than the ones on the DSG website. At the time I took that to mean they were slightly different plates, hence the difference descriptions on the respective websites. The plates did not demonstrate multi hit capability as advertised. Level IIIA soft armor behind them would not have made a difference in the 7.62x51 rounds defeating them, just a difference in the crushing/deformation or blunt force trauma behind them. That's one of the factors in an NIJ level III or level IV rating.
I will be the first to admit I was taken in by "slick marketing". And yes the buyer was clearly unaware of industry standards. I never claimed to be an expert on the particulars of hard and soft body armor materials. I have since learned alot and am continuing to learn. My purpose in this post was to warn others.
Thank you; there are a LOT of bad armor vendors out there, along with substantial loads of misinformation...
Is it normal to shoot things before you return them?
"Our Titanium/Steel combination Hard Armor Plates"
This makes it seem like the plates are part titanium, part steel (a combination of materials). They will claim "combination" is a term of art meaning it must be used with other armor.
I am not sure if it is legally fraud (probably not) but it is deceptive marketing.
When Titanium is used on clothing, one can assume it is a brand name or color. When it is used for a metal plate, it is deceptive if it is not actually titanium.
There are some schick razor blades which have titanium nitride coating and they call them Titanium. That is also deceptive, but titanium is a horrible blade material and they are only hurting themselves by associating their blades with it. Then again, maybe most people don't know that.
"Is it normal to shoot things before you return them?"
I can't speak for anyone else, but it is certainly a common situation around here...
I can't speak for anyone else, but it is certainly a common situation around here...
I was wondering about returning a product that you did not want, versus one you were reviewing or testing, which I assume is what you are doing?
Hmm, vendor is dishonest regarding plate construction and lies about protective ability; I think shooting the plates before returning them is reasonable given the circumstances--it certainly confirmed the fact that the vendor is not honest...
Hmm, vendor is dishonest regarding plate construction and lies about protective ability; I think shooting the plates before returning them is reasonable given the circumstances--it certainly confirmed the fact that the vendor is not honest...
That was exactly my thought as well.
Hmm, vendor is dishonest regarding plate construction and lies about protective ability; I think shooting the plates before returning them is reasonable given the circumstances--it certainly confirmed the fact that the vendor is not honest...
While that's true, if the plates actually HAD been titanium they'd have been even easier to shoot through.
I think there are two issues:
(1) The vendor lied about the material.
(2) The vendor lied about the NIJ ballistic protection level.
That being said, you COULD make a titanium IIIa plate.... it would just need to be really really thick!
Is titanium really that weak of a material? Not being any kind of metallurgist I have always been under the impression that it is an incredibly strong material.
Is titanium really that weak of a material? Not being any kind of metallurgist I have always been under the impression that it is an incredibly strong material.
It's lighter and more dimensionally stable (thermally) than an equivalently sized piece of mild steel. That's why it's good for aerospace applications. Steel armor plate is significantly stronger but weighs 40-50% more.
It's lighter and more dimensionally stable (thermally) than an equivalently sized piece of mild steel. That's why it's good for aerospace applications. Steel armor plate is significantly stronger but weighs 40-50% more.
So what you are saying is it is a weight to strength ratio kind of thing with a high temperature tolerance. So then why are drill bits coated in Ti if steel is still stronger? Is it because of the heat generated by drilling?
I suspect (not being a metallurgist) that Titanium may also be somewhat brittle to sudden impacts? There are different kinds of stresses to withstand. A large lateral force trying to bend something is a lot different than a sudden strong impact. Just guessing here though.
A drill bit is thermal mostly, and friction, not a sudden impact.
So what you are saying is it is a weight to strength ratio kind of thing with a high temperature tolerance. So then why are drill bits coated in Ti if steel is still stronger? Is it because of the heat generated by drilling?
Aye, strength to weight (density would be better term). It's also very resistant to corrosion. Drill bits are titanium nitride (TiN) coated because it's something along the lines of 85 RC, and keeps it's hardness at significantly higher temps, but it's also technically a ceramic not a metal.
I mentioned the thermal part because (for example) aluminum changes dramatically with change in temperature, titanium changes very little dimensionally (before it burns anyway), this is important for anything that has close tolerances. Like compressor blades in jets.
They do make armor out of it but I do not know details of the composition. The A10 Warthog has a titanium armored cockpit IIRC.
Alloys can do a lot that base metals cant. Steel has millions of different alloys. I'm not a metallurgist so I can't tell you why it does this stuff though. I just make things -.-
They do make armor out of it but I do not know details of the composition. The A10 Warthog has a titanium armored cockpit IIRC.
It does, which is what lead me to believe Ti is a good metal for armor but you earlier answer of strength to weight explains it, given it is on aircraft.
Heavy Metal
04-08-11, 18:33
Is titanium really that weak of a material? Not being any kind of metallurgist I have always been under the impression that it is an incredibly strong material.
Titanium is lighter than Steel and stronger than Aluminum.
It is not, however, lighter than Aluminum and stronger than Steel.
So what you are saying is it is a weight to strength ratio kind of thing with a high temperature tolerance. So then why are drill bits coated in Ti if steel is still stronger? Is it because of the heat generated by drilling?
More bullshit marketing. Drill bits are coated with titanium nitride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_nitride).
Wow. Just when I thought this thread had exhausted it's possibilities. Some of what has been discussed about titanium I learned after this whole ordeal about the plates. I've also learned alot about the ballistic threat levels because of this. In answer to why I shot the plates before returning them, Doc had it closest. When I shot them, I was angry and wanted to make the point. The point I wanted to make was that the plates were not what they were advertised to be or would not do what they were advertised to do. Also, at the time it didn't sound like I was going to get a refund. So I shot them to make my point. When I told both the vendor and manufacturer I shot them, and what the results were, the refund/return deal got worked out.
I didn't buy them to put on display or wear for a paitball game on the weekend. I bought them because I intend to strap them over my internal organs in case I have to face some nut with a long gun. Having said that, I should have dome my homework better and been less trusting. Slick advertising or fraud, call it what you will.
"Slick advertising or fraud?
BOTH!!!
The plates were not constructed as advertised and did not stop the threats the vendor claimed they would.
Sadly this kind of thing appears to be pretty common in the armor industry.
decodeddiesel
04-09-11, 18:08
I would certainly not call this fraud. Slick marketing perhaps.
Does it stop the threat level or not? Meet size weight specs?
A company can call them ninja plates if they wish...
Clearly buyer unfamiliar with industry materials and practices. .25" titanium wouldn't stop any rifle threat and wouldn't weigh much.
Excuse my language, but but you are abso-****ing-lutely correct. Titanium it's self is not some magic element that will stop any and everything. Plain old 4340 steel of comparable thickness has far better ballistic defeating properties than titanium. Further, you are absolutely correct about everything else. I mean, hell I have seen all sorts of products with the word "titanium" in the name. Hell, it sounds cool and that's what marketing and advertising is all about.
Not only have I witnessed first hand the ability of an E-SAPI plate to defeat a non-AP rifle round (Iraq 2006), but I now work for a company that does (among many other things) 3rd party certification of ballistic plates and armor coupons as per DOJ standards. We also do some PPE development and product improvement design.
It is important to understand what the different threat defeat levels actually mean, and to purchase these things from reputable vendors and manufacturers. I have seen and tested plates that carried manufacturing flaws that would have caused them to fail and not be effective at the advertised threat level. It is one of those things where QA/QC is CRITICAL and you have a far less chance of getting a "dud" if you go with a reputable brand name company.
YMMV and all that.
Sadly this kind of thing appears to be pretty common in the armor industry.
Actually, it's probably better today than 10-20 years ago. There certainly seems to be a bit more knowledge out there now then when I was issued my first vest.
It had a label on it that said it was rated for ".38 Special, 9mm, .357 Magnum, .45 Auto, and .44 Magnum".
No velocities, no bullet types, no testing certifications, etc. I asked our equipment guy which ones it would stop. He didn't have a clue.
Hint--Just because a vendor has a lot of advertising or significant brand recognition does NOT mean that it is a "reputable brand name company". Look for open, honest, thorough test results, along with ethical behavior and a true concern for end users--not just lip service...
Marketing your vests as bronze, silver, gold, or platinum is fine. Titanium is actually a metal used in some high end armor. It is misleading to use that name for armor that does not contain it. It would be like selling a gem as diamond then say you did not mean it was actually diamond but just a marketing term.
Hint--Just because a vendor has a lot of advertising or significant brand recognition does NOT mean that it is a "reputable brand name company". Look for open, honest, thorough test results, along with ethical behavior and a true concern for end users--not just lip service...
Good point.
It wasn't too many years ago when one of the largest vest companies was marketing a vest, that had extra layers of material, right where HP White shot it during testing. The rest of the vest feathered down to less layers, for "comfort". They brought it out to our department, and we said thanks, but no thanks. Lots of other departments bought it though.
decodeddiesel
04-09-11, 22:26
Marketing your vests as bronze, silver, gold, or platinum is fine. Titanium is actually a metal used in some high end armor. It is misleading to use that name for armor that does not contain it. It would be like selling a gem as diamond then say you did not mean it was actually diamond but just a marketing term.
That is a good point. Still though I can't help but think of the Schick Quatro "Titanium". With it's "Titanium coated" blades it reduces irritation and lets you get a much smoother shave than the leading brand. :D
Well, you found an example that also bugs me. It is a bit misleading as they are Titanium Nitride coated - not Titanium coated - but don't say so - at least not on the front of the box.
The good news is that they are giving you something better than they claim. Actual Ti would be soft while TiN is hard. They certainly don't add this coating to save money as PVD is an expensive process. If I were them, however, I would have put in the nitride part. I think the engineers did what was best, and the marketing people found that Kmart shoppers were confused, so they kept it simple.
For some reason there are Titanium wetsuits.
http://unrealfind.amazonwebstore.com/7mm-Henderson-Womens-Titanium-Hyperstretch-Full/M/B001LOO7VM.htm
This claims they really do use Titanium fibers, but I can't imagine why:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetsuit
decodeddiesel
04-09-11, 23:58
Well, you found an example that also bugs me. It is a bit misleading as they are Titanium Nitride coated - not Titanium coated - but don't say so - at least not on the front of the box.
Of course, hence the quotations around the "titanium". Still though, it is an integral part of the naming convention and advertising campaign which was my point.
I guess it doesn't really bother me because I know better and I think Schick razors are garbage lol.
Is this fraud, dishonest marketing, or are they the same thing?
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/175-7566441-1823920?asin=B001UE6MJ8&AFID=Froogle_df&LNM=|B001UE6MJ8&CPNG=electronics&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=B001UE6MJ8&ref=tgt_adv_XSG10001
Would these even have a 35 mile range from mountain peak to mountain peak? No.
Probably they have a reliable 1 mile range in a field and 1/4 mile in typical use. How can a company as large as Motorola be so dishonest?
What about those CF bulbs which say "60 watt replacement" but when you compare their lumen rating to a normal 60 watt bulb, they have about 2/3 the lumens. And that is when they are new. After 1/2 their life, they are maybe 1/2 as bright.
Where is the outrage?
Great post mongopod!
A friend of mine has a steel level III plate. It is coated with some black stuff that looks like a truck bed liner. But it is not steel-backed ceramic or anything like that. Just the steel and the black coating. I should measure the thickness, but I have not. I know that the AR500 3/8" steel targets that I have will stop 5.56 from up close. But my friend's plate is definitely not 3/8" thick. So I wonder.
I also wonder about these level IV plates from Israel for $299 per pair:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=224273128
If anyone has info on them I would love to hear it.
http://www.zfi-inc.com/NR/rdonlyres/7840B027-9F11-4B79-ACCD-1DF9A02840D1/1676/2PLC7.jpg
Great post mongopod!
A friend of mine has a steel level III plate. It is coated with some black stuff that looks like a truck bed liner. But it is not steel-backed ceramic or anything like that. Just the steel and the black coating. I should measure the thickness, but I have not. I know that the AR500 3/8" steel targets that I have will stop 5.56 from up close. But my friend's plate is definitely not 3/8" thick. So I wonder.
I also wonder about these level IV plates from Israel for $299 per pair:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=224273128
If anyone has info on them I would love to hear it.
http://www.zfi-inc.com/NR/rdonlyres/7840B027-9F11-4B79-ACCD-1DF9A02840D1/1676/2PLC7.jpg
Personally I dont recommended any plates that are not stand alone
A friend of mine has a steel level III plate. It is coated with some black stuff that looks like a truck bed liner. But it is not steel-backed ceramic or anything like that. Just the steel and the black coating. I should measure the thickness, but I have not. I know that the AR500 3/8" steel targets that I have will stop 5.56 from up close. But my friend's plate is definitely not 3/8" thick. So I wonder.
AR500 makes great targets because it's abrasion resistant, hence AR. It's actually a Silicone-Magnese steel I think, which aren't "tough." Steel ballistic armor is usually Nickle-Moly-Chrome, which are "tough" but not "hard."
Is it normal to shoot things before you return them?
Whenever I order anything supposedly rated to stop bullets, I order some additional material for the express purpose of shooting it to test. I randomly select a piece to test and, if it fails, I reject the entire lot.
To the OP: sorry you got taken in by their deceptive marketing. I always wondered about those plates. Titanium is actually quite a good armor material if used intelligently. For rifle plates (Level III, IV), it would not be the first choice, but for pistols (Levels I-IIIA) it is actually quite effective. I had plates at one time that were 2.1mm thick and could stop level IIIA threats.
It comes down to defeat mechanism- rifle rounds because of their higher velocity and smaller frontal area tend to require yawing/shattering, while handgun calibers are stopped by slowing/deformation. Shattering or yawing a high velocity rifle round is (generally) achieved by combining a high hardness strike face (ceramic or steel) with a backing layer (aramid or UHMWPE). The hard face increases the frontal area or compromises the structure, and the backing then catches the resultant rubble. There are a few plates consisting of nothing but UHMWPE, and what I have heard is they work due to frictive forces on the threat projectiles. However, as Doc's tests have shown, there are some rounds that penetrate (M855 for example). For pistols, Ti works because of the materials elasticity and the energy required to deform it.
Ti is not some magic material, it just has several properties that make it useful- corrosion resistance, lower weight (compared to steel) and fairly good toughness. Except for some precipitation hardening Beta alloys, it is nearly impossible to harden Ti to an appreciable Rockwell C hardness. Most armor Ti is 6-4 or 6-4 ELI (Extremely Low Interstitial Oxygen, a less brittle spec), which means 6 points of aluminum and 4 points of vanadium. There are plenty of examples of Ti being used in armor (The Second Chance T-15 plates and my plates from a few years ago as an example). These are not rifle plates by any stretch of the imagination.
Again, Doc is an excellent resource for armor questions, and I would probably run any questionable armor by him before plunking down your hard earned green.
D-R
i know this thread is old but, i am resurrecting it to thank all of you. i found it while researching just before i was about to place an order at DSGarms for a a pair of international armor corp. "titanium" levelIII plates thinking i would be somewhat protected from all basic assault/battle riffle calibers. i liked the idea of having a thin riffle plate that only weighed about 7 lbs. that i didn't have to worry about dropping. really, THANK YOU EVERYONE. if it wasn't for this forum and the people in it i would have made a potentially fatal decision.
Ken, the plates you speak of are the same combo of steel and Ti mentioned above. For 7 lbs of weight, a reputable plate like the AMI hybrid or even their plain steel would be much better and about the same weight. No drop worries on those either. Glad to hear you got the straight dope!
Anyone looked on International Armor product specs? They are claiming that their level 4 ceramic hard armor plates stop RUAG Swiss Munitions tungsten carbide cored ap rounds...
http://www.internationalbodyarmor.com/ex/new_pages/ceramic_plates/
If it is true thats extremely IMPRESSIVE, but i think it is just marketing BS. Just like the "titanium" armor plates. A stand alone plate that stops this round and weights just 3 kg? I find it hard to belive. Need to see independent tests.
PS. there are titanium alloys that where developed for use as armor plating. They are called Grade 38. Said to be the strongest titanium alloys. But true armor steel (not some crappy abrasive resistant 500) will allways be a better armor material.
blue5t1050
04-22-12, 16:01
Thanks for the warning!
InternationalArmor
10-31-14, 13:30
Please feel free to email me for any testing that you would like. Also, I know this is not a threat level III plate but someone bought our plate and decided to test it just like you! He called us and told us that he tested our plates (without us knowing). Fortunately, he actually documented (on video) his test. The AK-47 plate is a lower threat level than the level III and we have not changed how we manufacture nor the matierals in our plates since we first started making them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz7Xk37X82I
Also, as for the threat level IV stand alone ceramic plate, its actually 6.6 lbs and if you would like the testing on it go ahead and send me an email.
Love finding baseless accusations. Have a great day!
Ron Ryan
International Armor Corp.
sales@internationalarmor.net
InternationalArmor
10-31-14, 13:34
Anyone looked on International Armor product specs? They are claiming that their level 4 ceramic hard armor plates stop RUAG Swiss Munitions tungsten carbide cored ap rounds...
http://www.internationalbodyarmor.com/ex/new_pages/ceramic_plates/
If it is true thats extremely IMPRESSIVE, but i think it is just marketing BS. Just like the "titanium" armor plates. A stand alone plate that stops this round and weights just 3 kg? I find it hard to belive. Need to see independent tests.
PS. there are titanium alloys that where developed for use as armor plating. They are called Grade 38. Said to be the strongest titanium alloys. But true armor steel (not some crappy abrasive resistant 500) will allways be a better armor material.
I seem to not have an email from you, strange it must have gotten lost? :D I'm sure you would of emailed us and asked us for test results if you were that concerned that we are selling fraudulent plates and it didn't meet specifications stated on our website.
InternationalArmor
10-31-14, 15:41
:confused:
Wow, didn't think this thread would ever generate anything again. Not sure if you were addressing me in your post, or the more recent posts. My original post that started this thread clearly outlined my contacts with both the manufacturer and retailer. Also, I had full documentation at the time including a certified test result from KST's ballistics test facility where there were designing cockpit doors for airliners. Anyhooo....I will admit I don't have it anymore, and I never "documented" it on Youtube. I consider that less that definitive, although it can be informative and entertaining. I very rarely log on here and don't post anymore.. I just come on and read. However, it would never occur to me to log onto a thread three years after the fact and call somebody else's information "baseless accusations". As for e-mailing and asking for "test results", I was never made aware at the time those were available. I would not have believed them anyway, as I had conflicting proof in front of my eyes. Anyone who would be deceitful about the construction and labeling of their product would not hesitate to fake their own test results. I am underwhelmed to say the least. You can continue to say what you want now, as I will not post on this thread again. I've said all I have to say. You have a great day too!
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