View Full Version : Trust markings
monkeywrench
09-24-07, 20:05
I went the trust route. And just put my full name on the rifle and did not add the trust part and I was approved. Has any one else done this?
parker7777
09-24-07, 20:12
good question
i will be watching for the answers:) :)
That's not how it works-
You sent in the paperwork, were approved and just put your first and last name on the rifle.
You make it sound like the approval was somehow an effect of the markings.
Legally you MUST engrave the NAME, CITY and STATE of the manufacturer which is the trust if you filled out the form to manufacture an SBR from a lower.
What is your trust name? If your trust name is John Smith Trust, you are 40% there. You should have included the Trust part and you MUST include City and State.
If your trust is called John's NFA Trust then you put your name on there for no reason. "John's NFA Trust ANYTOWN USA" needs to be added.
monkeywrench
10-04-07, 20:16
This is what I did.
I put my first and last name on the receiver with my town and state.
And I was approved.
That's not how it works-
You sent in the paperwork, were approved and just put your first and last name on the rifle.
You make it sound like the approval was somehow an effect of the markings.
Legally you MUST engrave the NAME, CITY and STATE of the manufacturer which is the trust if you filled out the form to manufacture an SBR from a lower.
What is your trust name? If your trust name is John Smith Trust, you are 40% there. You should have included the Trust part and you MUST include City and State.
If your trust is called John's NFA Trust then you put your name on there for no reason. "John's NFA Trust ANYTOWN USA" needs to be added.
Abbreviations are legal too..For example mine reads "xxxrlt,somewhere,tx"
No way Im gonna externally engrave my name on a firearm for any Joe Blow to find out who I am..Especially on a registered item..IMHO thats just screaming "STEAL ME"
This is what I did.
I put my first and last name on the receiver with my town and state.
And I was approved.
No, you are still making it sound like the approval was dependent on the engraving which it is NOT.
What is the name of your trust (format, i.e. John Smith Revocable Living Trust?)
My name is Bobby Silvers. I formed the Bobby Silvers Revocable Living Trust. I engraved my lower "B Silvers RLT, Crackerville IN" and that is acceptable. To engrave my lower "Bobby Silvers" would not be sufficient.
The paperwork that was approved is like a driver's license. You still have to abide by the speed limits, a requirement of driving legally. That's how the engraving is- you do that on your own CORRECTLY to stay legal.
Robb Jensen
10-04-07, 21:26
What you engrave should be easily an abbreviation or variation of the Trust, LLC, S-Corp name.
You should also include what you have actually have engraved on the line for 'additional description' on the Form 1.
I didn't include anything under additional markings as there were none at the time and wouldn't be any until the check cleared and I knew it was approved. I don't need to mark a lower that doesn't need to be marked.
I didn't include anything under additional markings as there were none at the time and wouldn't be any until the check cleared and I knew it was approved. I don't need to mark a lower that doesn't need to be marked.
True,but once approved,it needs to be engraved to show that the trust or corp owns it..If not, and you get caught with it,you're boned...
Remember,if you use a trust or corp to get NFA goodies,you dont own them,the trust or corp does...You're just an officer of that entity.Therefore the item needs to be marked to show proper ownership.
Exactly, my point is there was nothing to put on the form under additional markings.
I think the OP needs a wake up call- a good one from us, not a bad one from the feds.
Do you guys happen to know why exactly having a suppressor or SBR illegally can net you a fine of up to 100k or 10 years?
There's a specific reason- and it's not "because it is illegal"
Just a little trivia I learned today that is very neat or kinda funny.
Robb Jensen
10-05-07, 19:47
Exactly, my point is there was nothing to put on the form under additional markings.
I think the OP needs a wake up call- a good one from us, not a bad one from the feds.
Do you guys happen to know why exactly having a suppressor or SBR illegally can net you a fine of up to 100k or 10 years?
There's a specific reason- and it's not "because it is illegal"
Just a little trivia I learned today that is very neat or kinda funny.
Probably because it's tax evasion. ;)
True,but once approved,it needs to be engraved to show that the trust or corp owns it..If not, and you get caught with it,you're boned..
I think we need an Rule or something to prove this .
The way I see it if a F1 is oked ........then its ok .
Talk to 3 ATF tards and you will get 3 differant answers ...............
Exactly, my point is there was nothing to put on the form under additional markings.
I think the OP needs a wake up call- a good one from us, not a bad one from the feds.
Do you guys happen to know why exactly having a suppressor or SBR illegally can net you a fine of up to 100k or 10 years?
There's a specific reason- and it's not "because it is illegal"
Just a little trivia I learned today that is very neat or kinda funny.
Some people put the numbers they know they will put on them on the application and others leave it blank.Ive done both..
That really has nothing to do with the application being accepted or rejected initally..As stated before,all those extra engravings are for is to show property ownership into some type of legal entity.This protects you as an individual from being charged with possesion of a NFA item..
The original serial # is whats going to be entered into the database and when that number is ran by a LEO if Im not mistaken,will show up as a registered item..
Im gonna go with tax evasion as my answer for the punishment question as well since that what the whole concept behind the NFA was in the first place..
I think we need an Rule or something to prove this .
The way I see it if a F1 is oked ........then its ok .
Talk to 3 ATF tards and you will get 3 differant answers ...............
Its approved,but it isnt complete until its marked with manufactures information.The trust or corp is the manufacture,so its info must be marked.
http://keepandbeararms.com/laws/nfa34.htm
The National Firearms Act
Title 26, United States Code
INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
CHAPTER 53 -- MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER
§ 5842. Identification of firearms
(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices. -- Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.
(b) Firearms without serial number. -- Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.
Its approved,but it isnt complete until its marked with manufactures information.The trust or corp is the manufacture,so its info must be marked.
http://keepandbeararms.com/laws/nfa34.htm
The National Firearms Act
Title 26, United States Code
INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
CHAPTER 53 -- MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER
§ 5842. Identification of firearms
(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices. -- Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.
(b) Firearms without serial number. -- Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.
Thank you very much.
Madsmiley- we don't need shit like that around here.
It's a well known fact. It's been rehashed on many boards. Deal with it.
By the way, welcome.
Yes, it's as simple as tax evasion. NFA items aren't illegal by any means. Not paying the correct tax is.
I think threads like this are definitely the type that should be close which I think Paul (right? no, damn I'm emberassed but also over .10 so I don't feel so bad :eek: ) you should do right now.
Robb!
There's no point in talking about this. It's a fact. Not open for discussion or debate. That will only cause confusion.
Don Robison
10-06-07, 01:32
Remember,if you use a trust or corp to get NFA goodies,you dont own them,the trust or corp does...You're just an officer of that entity.Therefore the item needs to be marked to show proper ownership.
The engravings don't show ownership, they show who or what corp/trust manufactured it.
If you buy an already manufactured NFA item on a form 4 you don't engrave it with corp/trust/personal info because the manufacturer has already done so..
Robb Jensen
10-06-07, 09:56
The engravings don't show ownership, they show who or what corp/trust manufactured it.
If you buy an already manufactured NFA item on a form 4 you don't engrave it with corp/trust/personal info because the manufacturer has already done so..
Exactly,
If your SBR is on a Form 1 and the Trust owns and made it then the name of the Trust or an abbreviation of the Trust name should appear on the lower (and on mine I list the name on the line for additional description). There is a debate that unless you're a licensed SOT/07 and Class II manufacturer that you don't have to engrave. It might be true, but what if it's not true? Do you think the engraving will somehow hurt you?
Robb
If the manufacturers name is "The John Smith and Jane Doe Revocable Living Trust" (in Somewhere, VA) Then you can then abbreviate it like:
Smith/Doe Trust
Somewhere, VA
or
Smith/Doe RLT
Somewhere, VA
The engravings don't show ownership, they show who or what corp/trust manufactured it.
If you buy an already manufactured NFA item on a form 4 you don't engrave it with corp/trust/personal info because the manufacturer has already done so..
That's true but you are bringing this up as if it were to counter what we are saying and it doesn't- please be more careful in how you present the information.
If it is true and looks like a rebuttal when it's not, it will only hurt the people trying to learn.
Don Robison
10-06-07, 12:40
That's true but you are bringing this up as if it were to counter what we are saying and it doesn't- please be more careful in how you present the information.
If it is true and looks like a rebuttal when it's not, it will only hurt the people trying to learn.
Be careful about what? Correcting a misunderstanding of why something is done? I brought it up because he stated something that was not true.
He stated that the engraving was to show ownership; it's not. I corrected his misunderstanding.
Thank you very much.
Madsmiley- we don't need shit like that around here.
It's a well known fact. It's been rehashed on many boards. Deal with it.
By the way, welcome.
Yes, it's as simple as tax evasion. NFA items aren't illegal by any means. Not paying the correct tax is.
I think threads like this are definitely the type that should be close which I think Paul (right? no, damn I'm emberassed but also over .10 so I don't feel so bad :eek: ) you should do right now.
Robb!
There's no point in talking about this. It's a fact. Not open for discussion or debate. That will only cause confusion.
Dont need shit like what,someone was asking a legit question and I was giving a legit answer:confused: I answered honestly and to the best of my knowledge
Mad I for 1 am glad you posted that , I could not find the info ........
Thank you Sir .
Mad- I'm confused, really I am. I apologize. I don't know what I said that for.
donr- my comment to you was because it seemed that what you were saying was in rebuttal against what MadSmiley said. that's all. I guess an "exactly" or "+1" or "yes and..." would have helped show you agreed and had more to add. It could be taken that you didn't agree and were trying to say something else. That was my point.
Don Robison
10-11-07, 20:42
donr- my comment to you was because it seemed that what you were saying was in rebuttal against what MadSmiley said. that's all. I guess an "exactly" or "+1" or "yes and..." would have helped show you agreed and had more to add. It could be taken that you didn't agree and were trying to say something else. That was my point.
It's no biggie, this interweb thing doesn't alway convey what we're thinking.
yes as i'm still wondering why i quoted madsmiley...
yes as i'm still wondering why i quoted madsmiley...
Its all good..
So all of this hullabaloo and we don't even know what monkeywrench engraved.
I bet it's not right or we would have heard a "damn I am glad I did it right!"
:D
monkeywrench
10-12-07, 06:18
I have been working and have not had time to respond. But It looks like I have to send it back to the engraver to correct my mistake.
I have been working and have not had time to respond. But It looks like I have to send it back to the engraver to correct my mistake.
Good thing about aluminum is that with a little minor milling the old engraving can be covered with the new stuff and it will still look ok once its refinished..Dont feel to bad,youre not the first that had to have work re-done:D
I had someone local here re-do one of mine and powder coat for $100..
Rebel Rifle Ordnance
07-19-11, 08:10
I'm in the stage of naming my trust and getting my lower engraved. I'm wanting to call my trust, "In God We Trust NFA Trust." I'm wondering if it will be on to have engraved, "In God We Trust NFA T" for abbreviation? Thanks.
I'm in the stage of naming my trust and getting my lower engraved. I'm wanting to call my trust, "In God We Trust NFA Trust." I'm wondering if it will be on to have engraved, "In God We Trust NFA T" for abbreviation? Thanks.
The only abbreviations that I'm aware that ATF acknowledges are postal abbreviations for states. Otherwise, no abbreviations. If you're trust is named "In God We Trust NFA Trust," then that is what is engraved (along with city and state).
With regard to the original OP, you must include the COMPLETE name of the trust (or other entity) when engraving a lower. This is why I advise clients to keep their trust names short. By leaving out the "trust" indicator, you now have a lower that appears to be manufactured by you as an individual, not the trust. There is now a conflict with the Form 1. The ATF frowns upon this kind of ambiguity (or intentional misrepresentation, depending on if/how the AUSA wants to prosecute).
If a corp. or llc was the manufacturer, same thing applies. There must be some indication that it is an entity, not just an individual. It must match the Form 1.
I had someone come into my office who had their ATF forms kicked back because they forgot to include their middle initial on the form, which was part of the trust's name. Don't cut corners with the ATF. It's not worth it.
Rebel Rifle Ordnance
07-19-11, 09:59
Ok, I just spoke with my attorney and he advised my trust doesn't have to have "NFA Trust" after the name. So if I just name my trust, "In God We Trust, city, state" in your opinion(s) would that work? Thanks.
Ok, I just spoke with my attorney and he advised my trust doesn't have to have "NFA Trust" after the name. So if I just name my trust, "In God We Trust, city, state" in your opinion(s) would that work? Thanks.
I don't know if this was directed at me, but I'll take a crack at it.
The trust's name does not need to include the city and state. However, the engraving on the lower must have the trust's name along with city and state. I hope that makes sense.
Your trust can be: "In God We Trust" if you want. When you engrave, it will be "In God We Trust" and city and state.
If you name your trust: "In God We Trust, Ellisville, MS", then you would have to engrave on your lower: " In God We Trust, Ellisville, MS" and again add Ellisville, MS. Keep that in mind.
Rebel Rifle Ordnance
07-19-11, 10:15
Thanks The Law!
I went the trust route. And just put my full name on the rifle and did not add the trust part and I was approved. Has any one else done this?
The "maker" of the NFA firearm is on your Form 1, if it's a trust it is not you. The same "maker" needs to be engraved on your receiver, frame, or barrel.
Rebel Rifle Ordnance
07-19-11, 11:12
I am under the impression that 4) a on form one is the name of the "original manufacturer" which is whomever engraved their name, city and state and then 4) h is where you put the name of your trust, corp or individual name, city and state.
brzusa.1911
07-25-11, 08:52
Sorry if I missed that, and if I did please point me to the answer.
Do you need the word "Trust" on your Trust?
i.e. Can I name my Trust - Jon Doe (whithout the Trust word) and mark the lower "John Doe, City, State"?
Rebel Rifle Ordnance
07-25-11, 09:02
Someone on another thread told me I didn't have to. I went ahead a took a chance and sent my paperwork off last week to ATF. My trust is titled, "In God We Trust" and I'm engraving that with my city and state. It's really not a matter of right or wrong because from what I understand NFA law is subject to a lot of interpretation. It's simply a matter of what ATF will accept. I don't think they really care.
Sorry if I missed that, and if I did please point me to the answer.
Do you need the word "Trust" on your Trust?
YES. You must have some kind of identifier for the entity. If it's a corp. or llc, that would have to be included. Otherwise, it will appear to be owned/manufactured by an individual when it is in fact registered to an entity.
i.e. Can I name my Trust - Jon Doe (whithout the Trust word) and mark the lower "John Doe, City, State"?
NO. As stated above, there has to be some kind of identifier of the entity (when an entity is used).
Everything I have read also leads me to believe that you cannot abbreviate the engraving of the name. However, I am not a lawyer.
Exactly,
If your SBR is on a Form 1 and the Trust owns and made it then the name of the Trust or an abbreviation of the Trust name should appear on the lower (and on mine I list the name on the line for additional description). There is a debate that unless you're a licensed SOT/07 and Class II manufacturer that you don't have to engrave. It might be true, but what if it's not true? Do you think the engraving will somehow hurt you?
Robb
If the manufacturers name is "The John Smith and Jane Doe Revocable Living Trust" (in Somewhere, VA) Then you can then abbreviate it like:
Smith/Doe Trust
Somewhere, VA
or
Smith/Doe RLT
Somewhere, VA
Robb,
Is this how you've done your SBR's? I have two on a form 4 and I am about to send a lower out for engraving and my Last name and RLT would give me more options on where to engrave!
davidjinks
08-02-11, 19:38
My SBR is engraved with the name of my Trust that was given on my Form 1.
In line 3b. it is listed as Jinks Firearms Trust...
For the engraving:
Jinks Firearms Trust
Any City, PA
That is how it was explained to me by the ATF and the engraver (Orion Arms) and also my Class III dealer. I was also told that the only abbreviations allowed were for the state and that was from the ATF.
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