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View Full Version : AAR: Vickers Tactical 2-Day Handgun I Class - 2011-04-02 & 03 - Carthage, NC



Defaultmp3
04-02-11, 19:52
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Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

This is my second class ever, the first one being an LAV Basic Handgun last November. I don't remember how the team drills went, really, as I had only taken notes about the individual drills; feel free to correct me on anything.

Class started at 8:30 AM; weather was a bit cold and windy, but got better through the day (temperature-wise; the wind messed with electronic ear pro a bit, but it wasn't anything catastrophic). There were 23 students, the furthest drivers from Ohio. Most guns were Glocks, with a light sprinkling of M&Ps; there was also two H&Ks (my HK45 and an HK45C), a couple of Berettas, a Sig or two, a Springfield EMP, and an FN of some sort (FNP9?). Larry started out with the usual safety briefing, emphasizing muzzle awareness and finger off the trigger.

The first exercise of the day was the empty shell casing on the front sight, to help show the students exactly what a good trigger pull consisted of. After allowing all students to understand what a good trigger pull was, he then moved on to the ball and dummy drills.

(Disclaimer: my memory is a bit fuzzy on this one, so I might have mixed some things up here) After doing so, to help emphasize that stress makes it far more difficult to keep good trigger control, since one has a "fiscal year" to pull the trigger in standard ball and dummy, Larry showed us the ball and dummy command fire drill, which is having the sights on the target, slack pulled, and then calling out when to shoot, using a 5/8th second beep from a shot timer. After that was the ball and dummy timed command fire drill, in which the students started at a low ready and had three seconds to bring up the pistol, acquire the target, and shoot.

I personally had much more problems with the ball and dummy drills when stressors were introduced; I usually do a variant of the ball and dummy drill on my own, but without any time constraints, which showed. My propensity to rush shots only compounded this problem, although my flinches were relatively minor.

The drill after that was the trigger reset drill, which was done purely with dry fire. One dry fires, and then a training partner racks the slide back while you are still in a firing position; while the slide is being racked back, one should simply relax the trigger finger, and let the spring tension push the trigger finger to the reset point. Larry stressed that the two most commonly taught ways were incorrect: the gaming world had a tradition of taking the finger entirely off the trigger between shoots, which works because of the excessively light pull of race guns; the LE/CCW way of slowly resetting the trigger until feeling it reset often makes the shooter then rush the next shot in order to make up for the lost time, thus inducing trigger snatching.

Larry also stated at this point that for accuracy, one should be able to cover one's groupings with a fist when <5 yards, and with a hand when between 5 and 10. He also stated that under combat conditions, one's groupings will, at the very least, double from range conditions.

After these drills on trigger control, Larry then went over sight picture; he stated that he left sight picture after trigger control to help show that it is less important than good trigger control, contrary what many other sources might state. The front sight should be the object in focus, as it is easiest to focus on the object in the middle out of three in a row (rear sight, front sight, target). He also stated to ignore the dots on the sights during the day, as they may be a bit off compared to the actual iron sights.

After lunch, we then moved onto reloading. Larry prefers to use only tactical reloads and slide lock reloads; when topping off in a fight, one should strive to retain one's magazines as long as they contain ammunition, since realistically, one would be carrying only one or two extra magazines.

As for the act of reloading itself, one should strive to keep the magwell pointed at the mag pouch after the empty mag has been ejected, so that there is less distance to cover while reloading. One should also be keeping the gun in one's workspace, which is essentially about six inches in front of one's face. When inserting the mag, one would probably be better served to sacrifice a bit of SA in order to glance at the magwell to help insert the magazine in, instead of keeping eyes on target but fumbling the reload. To hit the slide release, use the support hand thumb after the mag has been inserted to actuate it. It is important to those using Beretta 92s (and derivatives) to not slingshot the slide, as there is the possibility of putting the pistol on safe while doing so (as an aside, one should also use the DA pull as a safety, rather than the actual safety itself). For lefties, one should either slingshot the slide or else use the support hand to try hit the slide release if possible.

Larry does not like using the strong thumb to release the slide release, as it is quite possible that one keeps their thumb on the slide release after they get back into the fight, thus preventing the slide from locking back when running dry. Also, there is the possibility of the slide being released before the mag is fully seated, thus creating an empty chamber. This second reason is also why Larry does not endorse the usage of autoforwarding on a handgun, even if it does it on a regular basis. Instead, one should try to insert the mag in such a way that it does not autoforward (by putting it straight in rather than at an angle), and practice with it slowly until it become natural. A Sig in the class actually exhibited autoforwarding onto an empty chamber, which is why this was stressed.

I personally had great trouble with this part of the class, as my HK45 has a very strong tendency to autoforward. When it didn't, I then always used my strong hand thumb to actuate the slide release, since it's so long on the HK45. I stumbled for awhile, but slowly got the hang of using support-side thumb, albeit still being slower than how I was using my strong hand thumb; I also had a bad tendency to stare at my gun to look for the slide release, since it was still a bit of a foreign operation for me. Seems like something I'd just have to practice.

For malfunctions, Larry recommends using tap-rack-bang or else running the rip drill. For the tap-rack-bang, once should bring the gun into the workspace while doing it. When tapping the gun, one should also be sure to be actually hitting the mag's baseplate, rather than just the bottom of one's hand. For right handed shooters, one should also strive to roll the gun out to let gravity help pull out anything that was in the chamber while racking the slide.

For the rip drill, the sequence is:

Lock the slide back.
Take out the magazine.
Grab a new magazine while shaking the muzzle upward to help it clear anything in the chamber.
Let the slide go forward.
Insert the mag.
Slingshot.


The act of letting the slide go forward before inserting the mag is often the biggest issue people have, as when confronted with a slide locked back, they default into thinking of reloading. However, this might induce another jam if there was still something in the chamber, and thus force the shooter to do another rip drill. Also, there is no real reason to do multiple racks; if one is to do it, one should be sure to do it correctly, rather than just rack the slide back repeatedly without letting it slide home all the way each time.

I have not had exposure to the rip drill before, so that was a very new concept to me. It took me a little while to get down, as I tend to have to think for a second or two before I remember I start it by locking the slide back; after I get it going, it all comes back to me, but for the first second or two after the unsuccessful tap-rack-bang, I'm just staring at the gun while it's sitting in my workspace as i try to remember what I was suppose to do.

As it is known, Larry likes to put people into teams in order to simulate a bit of stress. The first team drill ran was to shoot the target three times in the black, and then three times in the head. Scoring was time + misses (1 point in the white, 3 points on the cardboard, 5 points for complete misses). The other team drill on paper was ran twice, which was 5 yard weak hand only, 10 yard strong hand only, and 15 yard two hand, scoring just the misses. There were also two team drills ran on steel: low ready to two shots on the steel and one shot each on two different targets. Also on steel was the walkback shoot; each person got two shots to hit a steel target; if one was able to get at least one shot on target, one was able to stay for the next yardline. Only MILFMaster (NCPatrolAR, I believe), Larry, and one other student was able to get to the ~100 yard line; most fell out at about 40 yard to 60 yards.

I personally made it out to about 60 yards, but was able to hit the steel once at 100 yards after the drill had been completed and everyone took shots.

The last drill of the day was to shoot a single shot at a single point on the target; the student with the best group was to be awarded a prize. In this case, the student that won requested one of Larry's famed slide releases, which Larry said he would bring tomorrow.

Larry talked a bit about gear throughout the whole class:

Rudy Project are the only sets of glasses that he would put on par/superior to Oakley. Using VICKERS (or something like that) would get one a 40% discount.
M&Ps are "shit", as they are bedeviled by issues caused by S&Ws incessant attempt so save money, and that several shooters he knew have switched from GLOCK to M&P back to GLOCK.
No one he knew would pick a SCAR-L over an M4 (this was when discussing FN products, where the shooter with the FN had his gun refused to have the mags drop free when reloading).
The best brown AR-15 magazines were Brownell's, which is actually discontinued, which is why his signature DD rifle came with only one magazine instead of the original three as planned; according to Larry, brown PMAGs had a habit of cracking.


As for training, Larry stated that one should probably bring 150 to 200 rounds when running bullseye exercises, perhaps 250 to 300 when doing mixed, while when doing carbine and handgun, one should bring about 250 rounds for each weapon.

I will post day two's proceedings as a separate post to avoid a wall of text.

SeriousStudent
04-03-11, 01:09
Very interesting AAR! Thanks so much for posting your thoughts and observations.

I'm looking forward to reading the rest of your review when the class is complete.

Defaultmp3
04-03-11, 16:38
Class started a little later today, at about 8:45 AM. It was a little bit colder than yesterday, but there was far less wind and cloud cover, so it had warmed up quite nicely by 10:00 AM. We lost one student, the one running the FN, along with NCPatrolAR as an AI, so it made for rather mixed up teams for when we ran team drills (only 22 students); we wound up just having people sub in from other teams to make full runs.

We started out warming up with the basics once again, running through the casing on the front sight, ball and dummy, ball and dummy command fire, and trigger reset. For the most part, as far as I could tell, anyways, the class had improved a bit overall in this regard, although there were still a number of students trying to purge the el Snatcho virus.

After those dry-fire oriented drills, we then practiced taking multiple shots once again, taking 2 shots, 3 shots, and then 4 shots before moving back a couple of yards and repeating. This was done both at the low ready and from the holster. We also ran the reloading drill to get back to speed with that.

I was still noticeably slower when using my weak hand thumb rather than my strong hand thumb to actuate the slide release, but I have become more comfortable with it, and have also gotten down the ability to reload without autoforwarding the gun most of the time.

To finish off the review of yesterday's learning, we ran a team drill once again: 1 shot each at two steel targets, once with both hands, once with strong hand only.

We then learned about turning and firing, which Larry viewed as being a stepping stone to learning how to shoot while moving. He emphasized that no matter what direction you are turning, your head should always be leading your feet, so that you can see the target before you are done turning. As for the turning itself, one should bend the knee on the leg that as being pivoted on, and pivot on the balls of the feet. Larry stated that it is very important to turn into a target, rather than back into a target, as one is able to see what is in front of the path of the turn. Several people had issues with having the right stance after turning from their weak side. As for the draw itself, the gun should be partially drawn by the time you face the target, but should not have cleared the holster yet. It is also very important to make sure that one never crosses one's legs during the turn, as it is a very unstable position.

I personally found this drill not too difficult to execute, since it was mostly centered on the lower body rather than the upper body. However, I did screw up the first couple of times by turning back into the target rather simply into it, which was quickly remedied.

Drills were run for a 90 degree turn to the left, 90 degree turn to the right, 180 degree turn to the left, 180 degree turn to the right, and walking variants for all of those.

After that, walking with turns was incorporated, which was fairly similar, and in fact, quite a bit easier, than simple turns, since now one has the momentum of moving forward to help with the pivot.

We then ran another team drill, as we now had fresh targets up: 5 shots weak hand only at 5 yards, 5 shots strong hand only at 10 yards, and 10 shots two handed at 15 yards. Like last time, this was run twice in a row.

After that, Larry moved on to teach us how to shoot while moving. The issues here are varied, but all contribute to creating a very large wobble zone. To help mitigate this, one should walk with a heel-toe roll, while also narrowing one's stride; however, do not walk toe to heel, as that is far to narrow and unstable. Also, use the knees as a suspension system of sorts, to help minimize up and down movements; the same applies to the elbow, so shooters who normally lock their arms straight out should allow them to bend a bit. As an aside, Larry also stated that one can do the same thing with a carbine, with the added stability of pulling the stock into one's shoulder much tighter than usual. Usually, one should be able to make accurate shots with a carbine while moving forward or backwards between 25 to 15 yards, and within 15 yards with a handgun.

The drill ran for the walking forward was to talk from the 15 yard line to the 5 yard line while making 4 shots after the shot timer beeped (Larry calls out when to start walking).

Walking backwards is similar; in fact, most people tend to do better when walking backwards, since it is a rather unnatural motion and people tend to concentrate on steadying their steps easier. While walking backwards and shooting is suboptimal, it is still well within the realm of possibility. Larry also stated that the shuffle step taught by some instructors works well for just moving backwards, but once the actual shooting starts, one is unlikely to actually maintain that gait, and would be much more likely to just default on walking backwards steadily. For walking backwards, essentially the same drill was ran, just walking backwards instead of forwards.

We then ran a drill that incorporated both going forward and backwards: starting at the 15 yard line, we walked forward while firing 4 shots when the timer beeped; after reaching the 5 yard line and everyone pausing to regroup, we then walked backwards while doing the same thing. This was done both at an individual level and as a team drill.

I had a lot of trouble with these drills, relatively speaking, as I couldn't quite get the hang of having my elbows not be locked straight; sometimes I would shoot great, other times my shots would be totally off-target. As the range I usually frequent allows only static fire, I'm not sure how I'll be practicing that, short of finding a new range.

After this, we were taught the figure eight drill, with the drums lined as having one in the front and one in the back. The goal of this drill was to illustrate the difficulties of shooting both on the move and from an angle. The students were required to shoot only when between the two barrels. Each student did 2 figure eights, shooting at the target three times each pass through the middle. This was then done as a team drill, where each team member had to do a single figure eight, with four shots during each time between the barrels, one on each target (four were set up). For safety purposes, each person was loaded 7+1 for this drill.

Like the movement drill, I had difficulties with this drill. By the end of the team drills, I was able to get a reasonable degree of accuracy on the targets (all on the paper, at least, none on the cardboard), but like the movement drill, I might have difficulty finding a proper venue for practicing.

Finally, we ran a drill for 10 shots at 15 yards, slow fire for the best group, as a warm-up for the walk-back drill, which was the last drill of the day. The only difference between this walk-back and yesterday's was that the shooter was allowed to make up a missed first shot only with a strong hand shot. This time, a far larger number of students made it to the hundred yard line, and three people were able to make the hundred yard shot, one of whom was Larry. To perhaps crown one of the shooters as the best, the last three shooters then attempted to hit the steel using a weak hand only shot, which none were able to do. This concluded the drills for the day.

I surprised myself by being able to make the 100 yard shot with my strong hand, after missing the two handed grip. However, for weak hand, I knew I had no chance at all, given the rather severe shaking of my hand, as I simply lacked the upper body strength to hold it steady.

One of main the reasons we stopped both days at about 3:00 PM was because of what Larry calls the 3:00 wall. According to him, students tend to not be able to retain anything after that time, as they are mentally spent on concentrating fire on targets for such a long period of time.

During the first break, Larry told us that he had a new show coming out, which would be on both the Sportsman Channel and online. He had stated he had preferred to do it only online (set up as a subscription type service), but that the sponsors balked at doing so; still, he sees the Internet as being the new future of television, so to speak.

One of the tactics-related things Larry talked about was the recent trend of standing square to the target; instead, Larry states that one should be slightly bladed for handguns, and a little more so for longarms, as relatively mild angles of bladedness does not really detract much from the coverage of body armor.

As for gear, Larry had a few more comments today:

Avoid DI 7.62 ARs, as they all have issues of some sort.
If getting a 7.62 rifle, get either a good FAL, G3, or SCAR-H, with the FAL being preferred if going old school, SCAR-H for new tech.
HK417s seem to be having some issues.
He has personally never done any kind of barrel break-in for ARs.
Militech is great as a wet lube (a lot of us students, including me, got free sample bottles).
He strongly dislikes some of the Magpul Theory-based Equipment, such as the BAD lever and the sling.


As an aside about gear, I had previously seen the UpLULA loader, but had written it off as something for the fairer sex, or males wishing to emulate them. However, after using one, I am now sold on them, at least for a class environment, where one is constantly stuffing mags, a problem compounded by my relatively low capacity mags.

Overall, I felt this class was a bit similar to the Basic Handgun I had taken, except with the addition of the figure eight drill. However, much more time was spent on each drill, and I was able to do a lot drills that I had not been able to practice since my last class, due to lack of a proper venue. I will now be looking for a range that would allow for such drills, and hopefully will be up to par to perhaps taking a more advanced handgun class with Larry soon.

Watrdawg
04-03-11, 20:47
Great AAR!! You hit everything that could have been touched upon throughout the 2 days of class. there really isn't much to add except for my own faults.

This class is a lot like the basic except for the malfunction drills, turning drills and figure 8 team drill being added in to the curriculum. When I compare my performance to how I performed in the Basic class there were improvements and then the same issues showing up.

My trigger control is better now than in the Basic class. I did fairly well both days until we started SOTM drills. Then everything went to hell in a hand basket. I managed to keep most everything on paper which was a slight improvement over the Basic class. Still stunk though. I think my wife and kids will see me walking all funny like around the house practicing SOTM. I did have a problem show up on the reloads. Before the reload section of class everytime I needed to do a reload I would hit the mag release and catch he empty mag and put it in my pocket so I t wouldn't fall to the ground. I know this isn't the right way to do a reload but I didn't want my mags to fall on the ground. Just something I chose to do at that point. When it came time to do reloads the right way I accidently grabbed a mag as it was falling out of the mag well. I knew it as soon as I did it and Chris(NCPatrol) was right there to catch me.

So from the Basic and the 2-Day course I have come away with knowing that I need a lot of SOTM practice. My trigger control is getting better but will always need practice. The various ball and dummy drills will be great for that. I really wish LAV was going to have an advanced class this year. So far nothing on the calender.

I was shooting one of the "shit" guns. My M&P 45 midsize. I love it by the way and have not had a single problem. I've put about 2K rounds through it and the only issue is that I have to rack the slide to release it when it is locked back. The slidestop/release is a real bitch to work with my thumb. LAV was talking to a shooter next to me about stippling his glock and stated even a monkey could do it if he took his time. After LAV moved on the guy he was talking to said that he didn't think that I looked like a monkey. Laughing I told him that the next class I took with LAV I was going to wear a pink girlie T-Shirt and shoot a Star 9mm 1911 just to mess with LAV.

Seriously though, it was a great class and it really helped to reinforce what I learned in the Basic class. I'm definitely going to make Ball and Dummy drills and SOTM part of my range routine. LAV gave us quite a few drills that we can practice on our own and the difference in my shooting between the Basic class and this class is markedly better.

NotDylan
04-04-11, 00:57
Excellent write up. The class was definitely worth the 8 1/2 hour drive and it was a pleasure to meet and train with all of you. While my shooting ability didn't improve as much as I had hoped it would during the class (which was a tall order), LAV gave me the tools necessary to make it happen. The ball and dummy drills we learned are magic for mastering trigger control.

My M&P 9 ran fine through the class until early into day 2 when the front sight had mysteriously moved to the far right of the slide. I swapped over to a 4th gen G19 and had 2 failures, one FTF and a double feed. LAV doesn't think too highly of the 4th gens, his personal 4th gen G17 had a FTE during the class.

bulbvivid
04-04-11, 18:01
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com



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bulbvivid
04-04-11, 18:04
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com



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bulbvivid
04-04-11, 18:07
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com



https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_lp6Oh0TqgtI/TZpCSZwBlXI/AAAAAAAAAHg/jvGq9hq2QhU/s800/Vickers%20Level%20I%20Handgun%20015.JPG

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bulbvivid
04-04-11, 18:20
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com



https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_lp6Oh0TqgtI/TZpCdU-S04I/AAAAAAAAAH8/pSokaKkxnPw/s800/Vickers%20Level%20I%20Handgun%20020.JPG

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Watrdawg
04-04-11, 19:08
A bunch of great pics. Sure looks like I was the only guy that could look at our oompa loompa targets in the eye.:D Other than Nick's wife I'm the shortest one in the class. i might have to bring my step stool next time we take a class pick. That way I can stand behind most of the class and look a bit taller.

Westminster
04-04-11, 20:28
Did LAV say what has gone south with the M&Ps? Ejector quality?

Magsz
04-04-11, 20:41
Did LAV say what has gone south with the M&Ps? Ejector quality?

Curious as well...

Defaultmp3
04-04-11, 20:56
Did LAV say what has gone south with the M&Ps? Ejector quality?


Curious as well...

To be honest, I don't really remember much of what he said about it, since for handguns, I drink the H&K Flavor Aid, so I can't really elucidate that much on the matter. I think he said that there were issues with cracked barrels and the left slide release breaking. He also listed three shooters that had made the GLOCK-M&P-GLOCK switch, one of which was Tom Cruze (sp.?); I'm not too into the shooter realm, so I don't really remember any of them. I think NCPatrolAR was the AI that day and was there for the conversation, so if he'd like to chime in, you'd probably learn much more about how Larry's POV on them. However, I do think it was more of a QC issue than anything, since, to paraphrase Larry, S&W "snatched defeat from the jaws of victory" with the M&P.

Watrdawg
04-05-11, 07:20
Those are pretty much the same issues I heard from LAV also. So far the only issue I have with my M&P is the slide release being a real bitch to press when the slide is locked to the rear. Other than that my weapon functioned perfectly.

VA_Dinger
04-05-11, 07:25
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com



bulbvivid, outstanding pictures.

Thank you for posting them up.

We appreciate it.

NCPatrolAR
04-05-11, 11:12
I'm in a week long school at work this week and am teaching this weekend so I'll eventually get photos up that I took on Saturday.

The general issues starting to pop up with the M&P include the ones already listed along with the redesigned mags possibly having some issues.

Oh; and thanks to all of the students for picking me last on the team selections. :cool:

subzero
04-05-11, 16:16
He also listed three shooters that had made the GLOCK-M&P-GLOCK switch, one of which was Tom Cruze (sp.?);

I don't know if I'm a good citeable source on this one, guys. My M&P is an early model that I've gone back to carrying and shooting after a Glock-M&P-Glock switch. I've talked about the parts it broke a few times and I'm more than willing to say it has earned (well, re-earned) my trust after those breakages.

The big fear with the M&P, I think, is that they've gotten very popular very fast. Since every company experiences swings in their QC and manufacturing processes, S&W may be vulnerable to an event like that.

ROGOPGEAR
04-21-11, 23:50
thanks for taking the time to write the AAR. I love hearing anything and everything from Larry's brain...well, most things, haha. Had a chance to train with him last month and can't wait to do it again, hopefully a handgun course like this in the not too distant future.

I love his one liners and absolute opinions on so many offerings in the industry, makes me laugh.