View Full Version : First SBR, need help
Devildog0311
04-03-11, 18:22
I am about to start building my first SBR but I have no idea how to go about the nfa forms in order to get a 10.5 inch barrel. Can someone please help me out with this information, where to get the forms and what forms do I need?
It's a complicated but do-able landscape. Start by reading this sticky (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=15253) and this sticky (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9830).
Devildog0311
04-04-11, 09:33
Ok I get all of that but where do I get the atf form 4?
you weren't able to find them on the ATF website under "Forms"?
OK. :cool:
Go here (http://www.atf.gov/forms/firearms/) to get forms as editable PDFs so that you can fill them out in Acrobat and print them. Note that both pages have to be printed on one sheet of paper.
Alternatively, you can go here (http://www.atf.gov/forms/dcof/) and order the printed blank forms mailed to you from ATF, including the appropriate fingerprint cards. They are prompt and accommodating in mailing that stuff to you.
Note that you also need the form 5330.20 Certificate of Compliance (one copy - either downloaded or ordered) in addition to the Form 1 or Form 4.
You can use your local PD or SO's fingerprint forms as long as they're the standard FBI forms (blue lines....most are). You will have to put the ATF NFA branch's ORI number on the form in the appropriate block.
You said you were going to build this rifle. Are you sure you want a Form 4? That's for transferring, as when you buy it online and have it shipped to your dealer. Building an SBR would require a Form 1.
Note that the Form 1 or Form 4 is for registering the receiver. The serial-numbered receiver is the SBR, not the barrel or upper receiver. You can order barrels and upper receivers without paperwork, but having a short-barreled upper at the same time you have a non-SBR lower is a potentially illegal situation.
You will also want to consider whether you're going to register the receiver as an individual, or if you might want to form a trust or an LLC and register it to that entity.
Note that if you build the SBR, you will have to have your lower receiver engraved with your name (or your trust/LLC's name) and your city / state.
I just googled "atf form 4" and it was at the top of the results. Hard, I know.
You would get the Form 4 from your class 3 dealer if you were buying an NFA firearm.
To make an NFA firearm you need to use the Form 1.
Devildog0311
04-05-11, 02:46
"Note that the Form 1 or Form 4 is for registering the receiver. The serial-numbered receiver is the SBR, not the barrel or upper receiver. You can order barrels and upper receivers without paperwork, but having a short-barreled upper at the same time you have a non-SBR lower is a potentially illegal situation."
Ok here is what I am actually doing at the moment. Forgive me I should have clarified. I am currently just building the upper. You said that I can order the upper without paperwork but having an SBR upper on a non SBR lower is a potentially illegal situation. What do you mean by this? how illegal, and would I have to build and register an SBR lower in order for it to become legal. I do not want to have any problems and if i can get away with just building an SBR upper and slapping it on my current lower without getting in trouble than that is the route I want to go. I live in TX if that helps any.
Devildog0311
04-05-11, 02:48
I just googled "atf form 4" and it was at the top of the results. Hard, I know.
I have no idea what I am doing, this is why I am asking for help on this site. Stay classy.
NoveskeFan
04-05-11, 03:01
I am currently just building the upper. You said that I can order the upper without paperwork but having an SBR upper on a non SBR lower is a potentially illegal situation. What do you mean by this? how illegal, and would I have to build and register an SBR lower in order for it to become legal. I do not want to have any problems and if i can get away with just building an SBR upper and slapping it on my current lower without getting in trouble than that is the route I want to go. I live in TX if that helps any.
Pretty much, if you have a SBR upper and ANY complete lower or parts to complete said lower, you will have to prove you didnt intend to put it all together into an illegal firearm. Get the approval first, then get your engraved lower, then get your upper. YOU WILL HAVE LEGAL PROBLEMS IF YOU BUY THE SBR UPPER WITHOUT HAVING THE REGISTERED LOWER. Use the search feature on this site, plenty of info on the process.
Devildog0311
04-05-11, 03:18
Pretty much, if you have a SBR upper and ANY complete lower or parts to complete said lower, you will have to prove you didnt intend to put it all together into an illegal firearm. Get the approval first, then get your engraved lower, then get your upper. YOU WILL HAVE LEGAL PROBLEMS IF YOU BUY THE SBR UPPER WITHOUT HAVING THE REGISTERED LOWER. Use the search feature on this site, plenty of info on the process.
Ok Thank you.
So basically I need to build the lower first, get it stamped and then I can build the upper with no issues? And which form do I need form 1 or form 4? And do I fill out the form before I begin the lower build? And where do I send the lower to get stamped?
NoveskeFan
04-05-11, 03:21
Hmac gave you the link up top, but again, read this https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9830. This is not an off the cuff thing to do. Please read through the linked thread. Here is the first post:
"How to SBR Your Lower by Scottryan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a guide to properly SBR your lower. I put this together due to the rash of “mishaps” that seem to plague people who are SBRing their lower.
1. Live in a Free State
2. Realize that you will be married to this lower probably for the rest of your life and you will get pennies on the dollar if you try to sell it after the SBR process.
3. Buy a quality lower preferably from a company that will service it after it has been SBRed. Olympic Arms doesn't count and neither does any cast 1980s crap.
4. Check all the pin holes to see if they are in spec. Trigger/hammer holes are .154” and takedown holes are .248”. The tolerances are +/- 0.001”. Anything more than that is out of spec. I don’t care what any blueprints say. You can take 100 lowers and measure them yourself. You will come up with these numbers.
5. Measure the magazine well. A good magazine well will measure .900” at the front and back and .970” at the slot. If you are less than this, you may have magazine drop free problems.
6. Assemble the lower with a quality LPK such as Colt or LMT. Use a quality stock with proper buffer.
7. Find an good carbine upper of known functioning. Better yet, two or three good carbine uppers that function well.
8. Place carbine upper and lower together and fire a minimum of 1,000 rounds through this combo to make sure you lower is good. Preferably use a variety of magazines.
9. Disassemble lower.
10. Find a good engraver. Orion Arms is good. Your local trophy shop/jewelry store is probably not so don’t waste your time, neither is your Dremel tool.
11. Send lower off for engraving. You do this before you send in any paperwork to the ATF in case something happens to your lower during shipping to the engraver or damage at the engraver. You don’t want to explain to the ATF that your NFA firearm is lost in the mail. Anybody that does this backwards is a complete idiot.
12. Get lower back and make sure everything is ok.
13. Send in NFA paperwork
14. Get approved NFA paperwork.
15. Get less than 16” barrel/upper.
16. Assembly your gun and enjoy.
Anybody that follow these steps will not have any problems."
NoveskeFan
04-05-11, 03:34
Ok Thank you.
So basically I need to build the lower first, get it stamped and then I can build the upper with no issues? And which form do I need form 1 or form 4? And do I fill out the form before I begin the lower build? And where do I send the lower to get stamped?
By "get it stamped", do you mean getting the Tax Stamp approval? Choose the lower, get it engraved, send off Tax Stamp paperwork to ATF, get approval, buy SBR upper and enjoy. Also, are you doing a trust or getting local chief/sheriff LEO to sign off on the form? If you are building the gun from parts, I think you need the form 1, if getting a SBR from Noveske or other dealer, then form 4.
Devildog,
Slow down and take a breather. Now if you want to purchase a short upper for potential use on a lower to build an SBR that's ok. Some people will tell you to not have them located in the same place because of so-called constructive intent. All that aside. Unless you broadcast to the world that you have it and then proceed to do sumb things, no one will know. The alternative is simply keep the upper located somewhere else.
1. If you are building the SBR yourself (in other words you are buying a short AR upper and putting it on a lower receiver) then you are the manufacturer. That means you will need a Form 1.
2. You will fill out the forms as described elsewhere and submit them, along with the other required stuff along with your payment of 200.00 dollars to the BATF (NFA Branch)
3. They will cash the check and review everything. At some point in the future they will approve the Form 1 and affix a tax stamp to it. They will send it back to you and when you have it in your possession you will then mate the upper and lower in matrimony and have an SBR.
That's it down and dirty. I advise you to read the NFA area here because everything has been talked about and laid out before.
Ok Thank you.
So basically I need to build the lower first, get it stamped and then I can build the upper with no issues? And which form do I need form 1 or form 4? And do I fill out the form before I begin the lower build? And where do I send the lower to get stamped?
brother,
you're in Texas, contact Sean Cody and have him set you up a Trust, he'll fill out the forms for you, you sign and send to the ATF.
he has no problem sitting and explaining the entire process out to you also..
Sean Cody
seancody@houstonattorney.org
281.451.4175
www.HoustonAttorney.org
www.TexasNFATrust.com
Devildog0311
04-05-11, 04:28
By "get it stamped", do you mean getting the Tax Stamp approval? Choose the lower, get it engraved, send off Tax Stamp paperwork to ATF, get approval, buy SBR upper and enjoy. Also, are you doing a trust or getting local chief/sheriff LEO to sign off on the form? If you are building the gun from parts, I think you need the form 1, if getting a SBR from Noveske or other dealer, then form 4.
What do you mean by a trust?
Devildog0311
04-05-11, 04:33
Devildog,
Slow down and take a breather. Now if you want to purchase a short upper for potential use on a lower to build an SBR that's ok. Some people will tell you to not have them located in the same place because of so-called constructive intent. All that aside. Unless you broadcast to the world that you have it and then proceed to do sumb things, no one will know. The alternative is simply keep the upper located somewhere else.
1. If you are building the SBR yourself (in other words you are buying a short AR upper and putting it on a lower receiver) then you are the manufacturer. That means you will need a Form 1.
2. You will fill out the forms as described elsewhere and submit them, along with the other required stuff along with your payment of 200.00 dollars to the BATF (NFA Branch)
3. They will cash the check and review everything. At some point in the future they will approve the Form 1 and affix a tax stamp to it. They will send it back to you and when you have it in your possession you will then mate the upper and lower in matrimony and have an SBR.
That's it down and dirty. I advise you to read the NFA area here because everything has been talked about and laid out before.
Thanks a lot man, I appreciate it/ I have one question about something you said though. What did you mean by some people will want to tell you not to have them in the same place because of constructive intent? Are you saying purchase the upper, but do not keep them in the same place? Lost me on this.
Devildog0311
04-05-11, 04:34
brother,
you're in Texas, contact Sean Cody and have him set you up a Trust, he'll fill out the forms for you, you sign and send to the ATF.
he has no problem sitting and explaining the entire process out to you also..
Sean Cody
seancody@houstonattorney.org
281.451.4175
www.HoustonAttorney.org
www.TexasNFATrust.com
Now this is what I was looking for, and what you call texas love, lol. Thanks man!
Semper Fi!
As in do not have them in the same place until you receive approval from BATFE otherwise you are in illegal possession of a short barreled rifle.
The only way you can reasonably be caught is if you are selling dope from your house, surfing the net for chilporn and planning to kill your neighbors. Otherwise no one knows but you and the upper/lower.
Thanks a lot man, I appreciate it/ I have one question about something you said though. What did you mean by some people will want to tell you not to have them in the same place because of constructive intent? Are you saying purchase the upper, but do not keep them in the same place? Lost me on this.
As in do not have them in the same place until you receive approval from BATFE otherwise you are in illegal possession of a shot barreled rifle.
The only way you can reasonably be caught is if you are selling dope from your house, surfing the net for chilporn and planning to kill your neighbors. Otherwise no one knows but you and the upper/lower.
In that regard, what if he actually took it out and shot it? Who would know? I've never seen or heard of ATF agents on NFA patrol. I think ATF agents coming to his house to try to root out "constructive intent" is probably no more or less likely than finding one at your local range, or back on the "south 40" wanting to see your tax stamp. At least in some or many parts of the country.
Just curious. Do you know or have you heard of anyone busted by the ATF at the range for illegal possession of an SBR?
Pretty much, if you have a SBR upper and ANY complete lower or parts to complete said lower, you will have to prove you didnt intend to put it all together into an illegal firearm. Get the approval first, then get your engraved lower, then get your upper. YOU WILL HAVE LEGAL PROBLEMS IF YOU BUY THE SBR UPPER WITHOUT HAVING THE REGISTERED LOWER. Use the search feature on this site, plenty of info on the process.
To clarify...there is no problem buying, owning, or storing an SBR upper, but you are technically in violation of the law if you have it while you also possess a compatible lower that is not registered. While you MIGHT have legal problems in that event, the odds are vastly against it IMHO. I've never heard or read about anyone having that issue. I suspect, but could be wrong, that ATF has a lot more serious issues on their plate than pursuing individual NFA violations.
brother,
you're in Texas, contact Sean Cody and have him set you up a Trust, he'll fill out the forms for you, you sign and send to the ATF.
he has no problem sitting and explaining the entire process out to you also..
Sean Cody
seancody@houstonattorney.org
281.451.4175
www.HoustonAttorney.org
www.TexasNFATrust.com
Man I wish I knew one like that in Tucson. I want to do an SBR and after much debate I want to set up a trust to do so. Sadly I get in work too early, can't call outside, and leave too late to find one.
NoveskeFan
04-05-11, 11:08
To clarify...there is no problem buying, owning, or storing an SBR upper, but you are technically in violation of the law if you have it while you also possess a compatible lower that is not registered. While you MIGHT have legal problems in that event, the odds are vastly against it IMHO. I've never heard or read about anyone having that issue. I suspect, but could be wrong, that ATF has a lot more serious issues on their plate than pursuing individual NFA violations.
I agree that one could most likely go a lifetime of "down low" ownership without the ATF knocking down your door. I do want to own a SBR in the near future, and dont want to be the first guy you read about :D
Devildog,
It seems a little over whelming at first but it is actually pretty easy once you are pointed in the right direction. You can "build" it and apply for your tax stamp with a form One or buy a factory built gun with a form Four.
Check out the stickies referenced here in this post. There is a ton of great information and read some of the older posts, there is even more info but the stickies are where I would start. You could also contact your local Class III dealer or one here on M4C like Todd at Noveske or Grant at G&R Tactical and they can walk you through the process. If you’re not in the state as they are you will need to go through your local Class III dealer.
Unless you go this way and do the Noveske SBR program then the gun gets mailed right back to you once the paperwork is approved by Uncle ATF. Here is a link http://www.noveskerifleworks.com/sbr_program/
I went the trust route myself.
Good luck.
I agree that one could most likely go a lifetime of "down low" ownership without the ATF knocking down your door. I do want to own a SBR in the near future, and dont want to be the first guy you read about :D
Yeah...I'm not advocating that by any means, just observing some of the practical aspects. Getting that tax stamp just isn't that hard, and I'd be willing to pay $200 any day in order to stay out of court with the ATF as complainant.
Devildog0311
04-05-11, 22:00
I agree that one could most likely go a lifetime of "down low" ownership without the ATF knocking down your door. I do want to own a SBR in the near future, and dont want to be the first guy you read about :D
Yea I agree with you man, I am going to do this all the legal way, but I am just so impatient right now.
Devildog0311
04-06-11, 00:03
OK here's all I really need to know; where do I get it stamped?, Where do I get my lower engraved and what is it supposed to say?, Since I am doing a complete build I need to do form 1, where do I get this form and where do I send it?
I think that is about it, you guys are giving me some great information, I like the idea of owning the upper on the DL, but in all honesty, after we just talked about it in the open on a forum, it has now looked more and more like a dumb idea. Keep the good info coming.
Devildog0311
04-06-11, 00:15
Devildog,
It seems a little over whelming at first but it is actually pretty easy once you are pointed in the right direction. You can "build" it and apply for your tax stamp with a form One or buy a factory built gun with a form Four.
Check out the stickies referenced here in this post. There is a ton of great information and read some of the older posts, there is even more info but the stickies are where I would start. You could also contact your local Class III dealer or one here on M4C like Todd at Noveske or Grant at G&R Tactical and they can walk you through the process. If you’re not in the state as they are you will need to go through your local Class III dealer.
Unless you go this way and do the Noveske SBR program then the gun gets mailed right back to you once the paperwork is approved by Uncle ATF. Here is a link http://www.noveskerifleworks.com/sbr_program/
I went the trust route myself.
Good luck.
What is the trust route?
Devildog,
All of these questions have been answered and posted here. You keep asking the same stuff. READ THE STICKIES AND OTHER POSTS THAT YOU WERE POINTED TO.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.