View Full Version : Lubing guns till they drip! Is there such thing as too much?
Lubing guns till they drip! Too Much?
Some background:
Buddy built up a budget rifle for his coworker who is new to shooting the AR platform:
Components in the build:
Bushmaster 16" Dissipator barrel assembly
Enhanced AR type BCG (unknown brand but probably whatever was cheapest using his FFL/MFG discount)
LPK
Full rifle stock
Parts came from Brownell's(My guess DPMS parts or cheaper)
When he was ready to close it up for a trip to the range I told him to let me see it. It was dry as a bone so I shot some CLP into the upper/BCG
The gun felt gritty but at least it wasn't going out dry. Plenty of lube so much it was dripping into the lower.
He contacted me via email saying that the gun wasn't firing (light primer hits) shooting S&B ammo but after he took the BCG out & wiped the oil off the firing pin, the gun shot fine!
Quoting his email:
"Lubing guns till they drip is fine and dandy if you heard from a chairborne commando that he was able to kill a dozen extra hadji's because his SPR ran so well in Afghanistan. In real world, at the firing pin channel is so flooded by lube that the firing pin does not move freely and causes light strikes. In real world, one who initially took the chairborne commandos words seriously, will have to take the gun apart and wipe off goo and only then the gun will shoot OK."
I recently took LAV's 2 day carbine class & he had no issue with my carbine having "too much oil" He also used me as an example to others who's guns were dry.
Before I fire any new builds I clean the bcg / bore & chamber with solvent /clean patch & oil heavily(BCG Only)
My reply: (Note while typing on my Iphone answering while im working)
"Bullshit, it was the assembly & new break in"
His reply:
"Telling you, dude. Firing pin channel was flooded. Oil poured out and it shot fine after that. Not even skipping a bit."
My Reply:
"Maybe cleaning the factory smeg off the bcg with CLP aka Break Free actually loosened off the junk that needed to be cleaned. Wiping it down completed the process by removing the debre
The C in CLP stands for Cleans , you notice it is the 1st part of it's name"
I offered to take one of my rifles to the range & swamp the bcg in CLP & shoot it. I guarantee it wont miss a beat!
His last reply:
"This bolt was cleaned and lubed before. I checked it out when I got it from Brownell's a month ago. I know that lube poured out and after that the rifle shot ok. If we want to test, we should test with xxx's rifle."
He said: "This bolt was cleaned and lubed before" he didn't say he cleaned & lubed it.
"I checked it out when I got it from Brownell's a month ago"
Again,bone dry it was but it felt like it had some type of coating on it to prevent corrosion.
Ok guys, Thats the truth, the whole truth & nothing but the truth!
Did I shoot too much CLP into the bcg/charging handle area to cause light strikes from the firing pin to the primer?
If I am guilty I am ready to be corrected.
2nd edit: weather in the 40's/bcg was out of the plastic bag condition & dry
ICANHITHIMMAN
04-03-11, 19:38
I think you where right telling him it needed to be lubed. I have never run into the to much lube issue maybe others have. Just dont give him anymore advice and let him figur it out him self. He bought alot of junk from the sounds of it so who knows maybe he never cleaned it before you put all the clp in in who knows dont dwell on it you sound like me.
Suwannee Tim
04-03-11, 19:47
I go heavy on the lube, the exception being guns with wooden components. Possible problems are killing the ammo with lube, lube being flung in your eyes and lube being flung onto optical elements. The chamber and bore should be mopped dry before shooting.
Rmplstlskn
04-03-11, 19:48
I would assume that it is possible to have too much oil in the firing pin tube, but I don't see how it would "pool up" and "pour out" as your friend stated. Normal lube technique would lube up the bolt and carrier and not really get much into the firing pin tube.
There is only 4 openings, three being small, one of the three small opening being at the bolt face. Not much to allow pooling of oil...
Rmpl
Your buddy is full of shit.
Send him the link to this thread. The only armchair commando here is your buddy with his piece of shit low grade rifle.
If your gun cannot run dripping wet on everything from motor oil, to WD-40, to transmission fluid, you need a new gun.
I dunk the whole BCG and put it in the upper when I lube for shooting.
I have two giant stainless steel tanks of CLP and CLP collector at home for submerging entire guns if need be for long term storage.
Oil is temporary, rust is permanet.
scottyran, your pm box is full!
Email sent, I didn't post in the thread as it was non related to the topic!
scottyran, your pm box is full!
I know it is and I'm not going to empty it.
You can email me or post in the thread.
Rattlehead
04-03-11, 20:10
Your buddy is full of shit.
Send him the link to this thread. The only armchair commando here is your buddy with his piece of shit low grade rifle.
That may be the best post I've seen today.
I have also never had any problems with adding too much CLP, and I'm very generous with it.
thopkins22
04-03-11, 20:12
The term "armchair commando" as your buddy used it is obscene. Frankly I find that most people who use it are in fact the real "armchair commandos."
Suwannee Tim
04-03-11, 20:12
.... In real world, at the firing pin channel is so flooded by lube that the firing pin does not move freely and causes light strikes.....
This sounds like BS to me. I took an AR out to the garage, flooded the firing pin as much as possible and could feel no binding due to excess lube, not that I expected to. I dropped the hammer on some primed cases and could not tell the difference between a flooded firing pin channel and dry, judging from the indentation on the primer. If such binding were possible, the excess lube would be thrown out with the first few shots. You can accurately measure relative firing pin striking power by dropping a wooden dowel down the bore, holding the rifle (or handgun) vertical and dropping the hammer. You then observe how far the dowel rises. I didn't do this, maybe your buddy, the armchair engineer might want to give it a try.
Belmont31R
04-03-11, 20:13
Any excess oil will drain out or find its way out after the first shot. Its impossible to have a BCG "drain" oil after being fired even once.
I referred him to this from Pat Rogers:http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf
He didn't want to read it!
Your buddy is full of shit.
True story.
S&B does have hard primers, .223 ammo might have wrong headspacing in 5.56 chamber, FP protrusion should be .032-.037. One of these is probably closer to the truth.
Well, here's Larry Vickers on weapon lubrication (http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/weapon-lubrication/)...I think you can sum it up with "...you can run a gun dirty and wet, but not dirty and dry..."
Suwannee Tim
04-03-11, 20:44
I referred him to this from Pat Rogers:http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf...
Good article.
I soak the hell out of my bcg with no hiccups. Maybe he should start building airsofts instead. Please tell me the name of his shop if he has one so I can steer clear.
I'm guessing you're using the term "buddy" loosely in this case.
I lube it generously but not dripping.
I would simply state "It runs now, doesn't it?" Lesson learned: Buddy was unhappy with a gallon & a half of CLP in the works.
All I'd say after that is "No biggie, just use less lube next time and run it". Who cares what he thinks about "too much" lube as long as the AR is run with lube. Let him get wrapped around the axle about it and don't get sucked into helping pick the spot.
In actuality, light primer strikes are usually due to light hammers/hammer springs or out of spec firing pins
When I'm reassembling my weapon after a good Simple Green kinda cleaning, I put just a light touch of grease on the carrier rails and a little more grease on the cam pin. Then I cycle it a few times and lay in heavy with the Castrol GTX. I don't get too antsy about oil on the firing pin. It's never been a factor for me.
Confed-rifleman
04-03-11, 22:07
Personnally, I've never seen oil pool and pour out of a bolt or carrier. I say generous lube, particularly in the BCG, after cleaning factory "lube" from the internals. Initial cleaning also gives the opportunity to look for potential problems that may have slipped past quality control at the factory no matter how "high-end" the manufacturer. A rifle is a machine built by man and both are fallible.
I see several possible causes for the light strikes:
1.) possible cheap parts
2.) possible fail to clean factory "lube" and re-lube with real lubricant (CLP may have loosened this and wiping may have finished the job)
3.) improper installation of hammer spring
4.) out-of-spec firing pin and/or bolt (narrow firing pin channel/firing pin too large, see #1)
There may be something else.... but what the hell do I know?
Heavy Metal
04-03-11, 22:15
It depends on a couple of things:
1) What type of lube(s) are you using and
2) How cold is it?
Some lubes do not play nice together and tend to gum up in combination. The CLP and the assembly lube could have been not playing so nice.
Always throughly remove old lubes before you start runing your rifle.
Cold weather can exacerbate the problem even more. They will turn the gum into gel.
I had a buddy who made what he called his "Special IPSC Sauce" out of stuff like STP oil additive and marvel's mystery oil and other crap. He has only used it previously on his .45s during warm weather for competetion.
We went shooting on a day when the temps were in the mid 30's. He lubed two AR's and neither would fire. His crap got so thick, the firing pins would not slide down under gravity when he inverted the bolts on his pick-up tailgate.
We wiped the crap out of the firing pin channels and cleaned the firing pins, re-lubed with CLP at the time and everythign started working.
Wow. Go shooting for a half a day and come back to the gayest lube thread ever. Don't waste your time with this dipshit. It's obvious from his demeanor that he already knows everything.
Wow.
I just felt you should know that I can't control my laughing that the 'gayest thread ever' involved lube.
In any case, did it occur to him to try dong the BCG flick (making sure the bolt is moving in the carrier) to fling some of the excess out (and more importantly verify that the gas rings are still on there and cam pin is attached) as part of the reassembly procedure?
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-04-11, 01:35
Take his rifle and seperate the lower from the upper. Cock the hammer back and have him put his pinky finger over the bolt catch and into the lower by the hammer.
Release the trigger.
After you popisicle stick his pinky back into a straight line, ask him if he thinks some oil is going to stop the firing pin from moving after being hit like that.
Re-peat with one of his nuts if he balks.
Belmont31R
04-04-11, 01:38
You guys are making me spit my drink up....:D
A discussion involving the gayest lubrication, pinkies, Popsicles, hammering balls and dripping guns, all in the same thread...
I'm sure that's a direct violation of the T.M.I. Clause, numerous state and local ordinances, at least three federal regulations and the Prime Directive
I'm not a lube whore, but my excess lube point is when I get the lube spray on my shooting glasses, i.e. The Splash Shot:p When the gun squirts in your face its too much lube otherwise I don't sweat it. This is why I like TW25 grease or as LAV calls it "Desert Jizz".
Just wanted this thread to stay on theme, I mean on topic:p
Some of the replys are killing me:laugh:
He is a good guy but he doesn't listen & has to find out things for himself.
He wants me to go out & try to replicate the problem again. I will use one of my guns but he wants to use the one he assembled.
When mine runs & his doesn't maybe he will see the light!
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-04-11, 06:43
Some of the replys are killing me:laugh:
He is a good guy but he doesn't listen & has to find out things for himself.
He wants me to go out & try to replicate the problem again. I will use one of my guns but he wants to use the one he assembled.
When mine runs & his doesn't maybe he will see the light!
Everyone has a friend like that and some of us were lucky enough to be that friend but have someone like you to set us on the right path.
Your both good guys. The firing pin channel probably had some sort of thick oil, almost cosmoline that the maker of the BCG sprayed on there to preserve it. The CLP mixed with that forming "GOO".
The problem is fixed and you are wasting your time trying to make it happen again.
I build Ar's . I bench test everything I can. But some times the first trip to the range something pops up like this that has to be tweaked.
Sometimes even the second trip the tweaks continue.
This is why I build and don't buy factory built.
When I'm done the gun is set up exactly how I want it. I know what parts are in it, and I know it's will run 100%.
My rifles spit at me for the first few rounds... I would much rather have to much lube than to little... Not sure that there is even such a thing as to much lube unless you are listening to your idiot friend.
Doc Safari
04-04-11, 09:28
My rifles spit at me for the first few rounds...
This is a problem I'm having. I generously lube the BCG, especially on a new gun. I coat the rails where the bolt carrier contacts the receiver pretty heavily, and I lube the outside of the bolt at the wear points pretty good. When I fire the first few rounds, the rifle launches little droplets of oil all over my glasses!
I'm trying to find a happy medium between too much lube and too little.
Suwannee Tim
04-04-11, 16:21
I don't mind lube on my glasses. I hate it on scope lenses. I was playing with a CZ 550 bolt action a couple of days ago, dry snapped it and it spit oil in my eye. OUCH!
This is a problem I'm having. I generously lube the BCG, especially on a new gun. I coat the rails where the bolt carrier contacts the receiver pretty heavily, and I lube the outside of the bolt at the wear points pretty good. When I fire the first few rounds, the rifle launches little droplets of oil all over my glasses!
I'm trying to find a happy medium between too much lube and too little.
Just wipe them off :D Thats what I do...
Keep in mind that amount of lube will allow you to run a thousand rounds down range before more lube becomes critical for function...
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