View Full Version : RMR & backup sights on a pistol
I'm seriously thinking about getting an RMR milled into an M&P slide and I've come across multiple options for setting up some type of co-witness with the RMR.
My question is: Is that really worth-while? I can see the point of co-witnessing and BUIS on a rifle - but I'm not sure if it's really worth it on a pistol. If I ever had to use a pistol in a self defense situation, it seems like it would happen too fast to be hunting for backup sights if the primary optic failed.
Does anyone else agree with that? Or is everyone else onboard with needing backup sights?
Don Robison
04-03-11, 20:48
I'm running backup sights on mine because even though sights aren't needed inside 7 yards sight aren't needed; they sure are nice when you do need them. If the RDS goes down I want a way to still be able to make a precision shot.
You can read more on the subject here
http://www.reddotpistols.com/?pg=tsdfaq
willowofwisp
04-03-11, 22:08
I am having my slide machined for an RMR now and I am included the BUIS, wit the rear sight behind the RMR..i think its just added insurance.
You should also mill the front of the RMR, just below the lense, as it is curved. It is more of an aesthetics issue but also makes fitting the unit easier.
I generally find that it's better to have and not need that the inverse, especially when your rear end is on the line. Also if you machine to have the RDS placed in front of the existing rear dove tail then there really is no added work being done, just the mounting of higher suppressor sights.
If the sights are truly cowitnessed then there would be minimal hunting for the BUIS. Just a switch in what you are focusing on. It's not like on an AR where you have to flip up the BUIS before you can use them.
Thanks for the responses guys!
The main thing that convinced me was one of the FAQs at reddotpistols.com where they mentioned the training aspect. That makes more sense to me than needing backup sights - just because I have 10s of thousands of practice rounds where I've trained myself to pick up those iron sights.
Now I need to get this thing ordered and installed!
Don Robison
04-04-11, 10:21
You should also mill the front of the RMR, just below the lense, as it is curved. It is more of an aesthetics issue but also makes fitting the unit easier.
TSD mills the radius in the slide.
TSD mills the radius in the slide.
Nice! CNC or turret mill?
Don Robison
04-04-11, 11:17
Nice! CNC or turret mill?
Not sure on that one; I just know I send them a slide and it comes back from Mark the gunsmith with a perfect fit. :D
I've never been in his shop or asked how he does it.
That's great! I'm planning on ordering my RMR this morning and then I'll ship it off to TSD for milling.
Then I'll begin the 60-90 day wait - but I guess I can live without that pistol for a couple of months. :cray:
It doesn't seem like there's any downside to these pistol red dots, so I'm kind of excited to get setup with one.
Don Robison
04-04-11, 12:02
That's great! I'm planning on ordering my RMR this morning and then I'll ship it off to TSD for milling.
Then I'll begin the 60-90 day wait - but I guess I can live without that pistol for a couple of months. :cray:
It doesn't seem like there's any downside to these pistol red dots, so I'm kind of excited to get setup with one.
I think you'll be happy with the turn around time. Historically, it's been significantly less than 60 days.
novak1911freak
04-04-11, 14:18
Other than the bad guy not seeing the dot, what is the advantage of have a mini red dot sight on a handgun versus a laser?
I know some people like the lasers - but I really don't. They seem good in theory, but can be a bit hard to spot in some situations since it is changing planes as it moves on and off targets. (I hope that makes sense.)
Red dots, on the other hand, are always in the same place and are much easier to spot.
To be completely fair, I've never owned a laser since I used them in training and wasn't impressed. It's possible I would have started to like them if I had spent more time training with them.
That's great! I'm planning on ordering my RMR this morning and then I'll ship it off to TSD for milling.
Then I'll begin the 60-90 day wait - but I guess I can live without that pistol for a couple of months. :cray:
It doesn't seem like there's any downside to these pistol red dots, so I'm kind of excited to get setup with one.
Unless there is a part ordering delay, my turn around time for the machine work is typically less than 1 week.
I receive slides throughout the week and whatever arrives by Friday is turned around by Monday the next week.
So, if the sight is either already in your possession (please send it with the slide), or is in stock at OST, the longest delays are likely the shipping.
Wow! One week is way better than I would have expected.
My RMR shipped today, so I'll get that and the slide into the mail as soon as I can.
Well, I just submitted my order at onesourcetactical.com and the pistol is going in the mail tomorrow. :)
willowofwisp
04-13-11, 19:19
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5148/5617913018_2f6e562988_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5067/5617912596_728710a4b3_z.jpg
I just got my Glock back from a local machinist (he does Costa's and Fisher's guns), I am loving the BUIS
I believe it is critical for a duty/CCW pistol to have back-up iron sights or a back-up laser. In the past year, I have had one RMR on a G19 spontaneously stop working (turned out to be a defective sight that Trijicon immediately replaced), however, it was no big deal as the BIS worked flawlessly and allowed an immediate transition with no wasted time or missed shots. In addition, with BIS I never have to worry about finding the red dot, even in awkward shooting positions—just line up the iron sights as normal and the red dot is there.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5148/5617913018_2f6e562988_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5067/5617912596_728710a4b3_z.jpg
I just got my Glock back from a local machinist (he does Costa's and Fisher's guns), I am loving the BUIS
Dougie does super work..my M&P will be there
soon for a RMR cut...
Being able to see the front sight is key to finding the red dot fast if you don't immediately pick it up (odd shooting position, weak hand, etc). Just think of the bottom of the RMR as your rear sight, so you just move your front sight to the bottom of the RMR and roughly centered Left/Right (almost instantly) and the dot will pop into the window. If the dot goes out you can still get decent hits up to medium distances. I really don't miss the rear sight on my M&P.
I have both front and rear backup sights on my RMR'd G17. I do it different from most, but it works great. I personally don't like all black sights for use indoors. For one thing there's many places as I walk around my house that I pretty much can't see a black sight, due to lighting and contrast issues. I've got the orange Hack's on one of my Glocks, and frankly I have the same problem...there's certain lighting conditions where I just can't see the orange. It just takes one or two steps to go from seeing it fine to not seeing it at all. In both of those cases I can still see white dots just fine, so I've personally gone back to green tritium with a white ring for fronts and yellow tritium with no white rings for rears. Works for me, but everyone's preferences are different and certainly just as valid (or more so in a lot of cases probably).
With the RMR I don't like a tall front sight, even more so with a white dot on it. I like the height to be enough so I can see the sight sitting in the bottom of the RMR window when I'm looking through the middle of the RMR. For rears I like plain yellow tritium that's about the same height or just slightly above the back of the RMR. The rear lets me refine my windage for a bit more precision if needed with the dot disabled, but I'm not convinced it's that big of a deal.
It might just be me, but going into a very dark room with my RMR'd G17 with no tritium sights was in interesting experience. I normally don't have any problem picking up the RMR dot with reasonable lighting, but that wasn't the case in the dark. Odd shooting positions meant wiggling the gun around looking for the dot, and even when I had it, I'd often loose it with just a bit of movement. Why? Because if the dot's not roughly centered in the window it's easy to loose the dot just moving the gun or taking a step. You might be seeing the dot, but if it's just barely in the window it's easily lost. That's where the tritium sights come in. Just start moving the green front to the yellow rears and the red dot rapidly pops into view, no wiggling the gun around required. With my current front sight height the green dot vanishes as it's brought down to the yellow rears, but no big deal, the red RMR dot makes a triangle with the yellow rears, and the distance from the red dot to each yellow is pretty close to the same as the spacing between the yellows (with the red centered in the window). You can move, get into odd positions in the dark, etc with no worries about loosing the red dot. Works for me, but I'm sure it's not for everyone. I've been playing around with it as an experiment, but no real world experience obviously (I should mention that the red RMR dot is much brighter than the tritium dots, so the multiple dots really doesn't cause a problem.) Of course if you've got an M&P with the laser grips combined with the RMR, there's not many lighting conditions where you're going to have issues I'd think. I love my RMR'd M&P with the CT laser grips.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5148/5617913018_2f6e562988_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5067/5617912596_728710a4b3_z.jpg
I just got my Glock back from a local machinist (he does Costa's and Fisher's guns), I am loving the BUIS
That Glock looks pretty sweet! I'll post some pics of mine when I get it back.
Being able to see the front sight is key to finding the red dot fast if you don't immediately pick it up (odd shooting position, weak hand, etc). Just think of the bottom of the RMR as your rear sight, so you just move your front sight to the bottom of the RMR and roughly centered Left/Right (almost instantly) and the dot will pop into the window. If the dot goes out you can still get decent hits up to medium distances. I really don't miss the rear sight on my M&P.
I have both front and rear backup sights on my RMR'd G17. I do it different from most, but it works great. I personally don't like all black sights for use indoors. For one thing there's many places as I walk around my house that I pretty much can't see a black sight, due to lighting and contrast issues. I've got the orange Hack's on one of my Glocks, and frankly I have the same problem...there's certain lighting conditions where I just can't see the orange. It just takes one or two steps to go from seeing it fine to not seeing it at all. In both of those cases I can still see white dots just fine, so I've personally gone back to green tritium with a white ring for fronts and yellow tritium with no white rings for rears. Works for me, but everyone's preferences are different and certainly just as valid (or more so in a lot of cases probably).
With the RMR I don't like a tall front sight, even more so with a white dot on it. I like the height to be enough so I can see the sight sitting in the bottom of the RMR window when I'm looking through the middle of the RMR. For rears I like plain yellow tritium that's about the same height or just slightly above the back of the RMR. The rear lets me refine my windage for a bit more precision if needed with the dot disabled, but I'm not convinced it's that big of a deal.
It might just be me, but going into a very dark room with my RMR'd G17 with no tritium sights was in interesting experience. I normally don't have any problem picking up the RMR dot with reasonable lighting, but that wasn't the case in the dark. Odd shooting positions meant wiggling the gun around looking for the dot, and even when I had it, I'd often loose it with just a bit of movement. Why? Because if the dot's not roughly centered in the window it's easy to loose the dot just moving the gun or taking a step. You might be seeing the dot, but if it's just barely in the window it's easily lost. That's where the tritium sights come in. Just start moving the green front to the yellow rears and the red dot rapidly pops into view, no wiggling the gun around required. With my current front sight height the green dot vanishes as it's brought down to the yellow rears, but no big deal, the red RMR dot makes a triangle with the yellow rears, and the distance from the red dot to each yellow is pretty close to the same as the spacing between the yellows (with the red centered in the window). You can move, get into odd positions in the dark, etc with no worries about loosing the red dot. Works for me, but I'm sure it's not for everyone. I've been playing around with it as an experiment, but no real world experience obviously (I should mention that the red RMR dot is much brighter than the tritium dots, so the multiple dots really doesn't cause a problem.) Of course if you've got an M&P with the laser grips combined with the RMR, there's not many lighting conditions where you're going to have issues I'd think. I love my RMR'd M&P with the CT laser grips.
You guys have convinced me that a backup option makes sense - but now I'm wondering if the CT grips would have been a better option than putting sights with the red dot. I've used lasers on pistols before and haven't been impressed, but I'm tempted to give it another try as a backup for the RMR...
EzGoingKev
04-14-11, 18:36
I've got the orange Hack's on one of my Glocks, and frankly I have the same problem...there's certain lighting conditions where I just can't see the orange. It just takes one or two steps to go from seeing it fine to not seeing it at all. In both of those cases I can still see white dots just fine, so I've personally gone back to green tritium with a white ring for fronts and yellow tritium with no white rings for rears. Works for me, but everyone's preferences are different and certainly just as valid (or more so in a lot of cases probably).
I agree with this 100%.
I had the original white dot front and could see it in almost all conditions.
I put the Hackathorne orange on the front and will say that if it gets some light behind it is awesomely bright and easy to pick up. In certain conditions though it sucks to pick up - no light behind and slightly dim, but not dark enough for you to be able to pick up the tritium.
Well, I got back from the range this morning and my new RMR slide was awaiting! I can't wait to get back and shoot with it on Tuesday! :D
Once I've put it to some use I'll post some pics. I've VERY glad I went with the suppressor sights as backups. It easy to lose the dot and the sights make it easy to index it back into the window.
I should also mention the customer service and workmanship from OneSourceTactical. They did excellent work and called a couple of times just to let me know how it was going. The turnaround time was around a week from the day I mailed the slide+RMR to the day I got it back.
I would highly recommend them!
Well, I got back from the range this morning and my new RMR slide was awaiting! I can't wait to get back and shoot with it on Tuesday! :D
Once I've put it to some use I'll post some pics. I've VERY glad I went with the suppressor sights as backups. It easy to lose the dot and the sights make it easy to index it back into the window.
I should also mention the customer service and workmanship from OneSourceTactical. They did excellent work and called a couple of times just to let me know how it was going. The turnaround time was around a week from the day I mailed the slide+RMR to the day I got it back.
I would highly recommend them!
Thank you for the kind words. Glad to hear the you got your slide back.
I kinda wondered if yours was in the batch I picked up on Monday and returned on Tuesday before I had to leave town for my Daughters wedding.
Also in Austin as it so happens.
Other than the bad guy not seeing the dot, what is the advantage of have a mini red dot sight on a handgun versus a laser?
same advantages as a red dot over a laser on a carbine- visible in all light conditions at all ranges.
Anybody experience any issues with mud/snow/general debris on the lens partially or entirely obscuring your field of view? I've had issues such as this with optics on carbines and this is probably the only reason I feel averse to throwing optics on my handgun. It is my lifeline and I need to know it will be usable regardless of conditions.
Don Robison
04-23-11, 15:34
Anybody experience any issues with mud/snow/general debris on the lens partially or entirely obscuring your field of view? I've had issues such as this with optics on carbines and this is probably the only reason I feel averse to throwing optics on my handgun. It is my lifeline and I need to know it will be usable regardless of conditions.
I've been carrying mine everyday for the last 6 months as well as using it as a training gun and haven't had any issues. I wipe the lenses off a couple times a week just to keep lint and dust from accumulating since it is a flat surface facing up in the holster. I've done everything from dry wall work to cutting and cutting firewood with it in place.
willowofwisp
04-23-11, 15:48
I've been carrying mine everyday for the last 6 months as well as using it as a training gun and haven't had any issues. I wipe the lenses off a couple times a week just to keep lint and dust from accumulating since it is a flat surface facing up in the holster. I've done everything from dry wall work to cutting and cutting firewood with it in place.
do you normally just wipe the lense down with alcohol on a cotton swab or something along those lines?
Don Robison
04-23-11, 15:59
do you normally just wipe the lense down with alcohol on a cotton swab or something along those lines?
I'll probably be chastised, but I just use my t-shirt. Part of the reason for me going to this gun full time was to see exactly what it will tolerate. I don't want to say I abuse it, but I definitely am not easy on it.
willowofwisp
04-23-11, 20:09
I'll probably be chastised, but I just use my t-shirt. Part of the reason for me going to this gun full time was to see exactly what it will tolerate. I don't want to say I abuse it, but I definitely am not easy on it.
Haha that's what I used during my hg2 class..I was racking my RMR against my Raven Phantom, against my ares gear belt, my knee and even off my boot on Friday..the thing looks great besides a small mark where the finish was removed.
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