View Full Version : Good Starting Point For Reliable 1911
Looking for input on a good starting point for getting a reliable 1911. I'm planning on sending whatever I get to Ned at Michiguns so he can do his thing as well.
But what's a good brand and model that is cheap, but won't have to be completely replaced or worked on by Ned. Basically, I want the cheapest 1911 I can get that runs 100%. If I can start with a real cheap (under $400) 1911 and spend a few hundred getting it to run that'd be awesome.
Any thoughts? Going to stick with a government model for this.
Looking for input on a good starting point for getting a reliable 1911. I'm planning on sending whatever I get to Ned at Michiguns so he can do his thing as well.
But what's a good brand and model that is cheap, but won't have to be completely replaced or worked on by Ned. Basically, I want the cheapest 1911 I can get that runs 100%. If I can start with a real cheap (under $400) 1911 and spend a few hundred getting it to run that'd be awesome.
Any thoughts? Going to stick with a government model for this.
Yes, I have a thought. The word "cheap" is a constant theme in your post. With much experience in using the 1911 for carry and duty, and a lot more experience in moving to other guns for reliability, I'd say that your goals and plans are not likely to work well. If you are really intent on this, have some very low goals and minimize your performance expectations.
Go here for some very useful information: http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html
I'll spend whatever needs to be spent for it to be good, unless for some reason it's a requirement to spend $2000 to get a 1911 that actually runs.
I'm just saying, I don't want to spend more money for a particular brand or feature if it doesn't really get me anything over a cheaper model.
abn45bravo
04-03-11, 23:16
If your budget is small a 1911 is not for you. Buy a glock until your budget gets bigger. That said I would say Springfield, colt, Wilson. As those are the 1911's I have experience with.
Have a Glock and M&P...my budget is pretty much whatever I want it to be. I don't really need to do it all in one swing, I can have work done as I go...
My whole point regarding getting one 'cheap' is that I really don't care to spend money for fancy grips, or work that doesn't enhance reliability or the function of the pistol. It needs to work, not look real nice. If I can do that for $600 then great. If it needs to be $1000 or more then fine...I just need to know what stock pistol is a good place to start.
m1a_scoutguy
04-03-11, 23:36
How bout we replace the word "Cheap" with inexpensive !!!;);) Ah,,that sounds better already !!! Anyways,,there is a fine line with 1911 Pistols,,,you can buy a inexpensive one and upgrade it,,,,OR spend the $$$$ you were gonna Upgrade with and just get a 1911 that is ready to go,,sometimes a tough choice !!! :confused: On the inexpensive route,,look for a Springfield GI,,or a Basic Bare Bones Colt,,shoot it,,see how it goes and then go from there. Note what it likes and dislikes,,make notes,,shoot multiple types of ammo and then decide what you really want and most importantly what you NEED !!! Send the gun out,,get it upgraded and then shoot it somemore,,sounds easy enough right. :)
Or,,buy a Higher end Pistol,,maybe a Colt Combat Elite,,or a Springfield Loaded Model & do the same as above,,shoot the thing ALOT,,and figure out what ya like,,dislike again and go from there !!! I think if you buy a Better Pistol to begin with,,you will be better off & happier in the long run,,& then if you feel you need/want some upgrades you can get them done down the road !!! Well thats my 2cents,,,let us know how ya make out !!!:)
$1000 is basically the entry point for the 1911 game (once one factors in spare magazines, holster(s), and enough carry ammunition to have any sort of confidence).
There are some stout performers right in that area (Springfield Loaded, Colt XSE, STI Trojan, or a Springfield GI/Gov with some competent smithing), but out of the box nothing's really going to run as uninterruptably as a 'lowly' G19.
Starting off spending a bit more on a Springfield Operator or Colt Rail Gun would be even more flexible (though any of the above units with a Dawson rail can accomplish a lot of the same); net investment you're looking at $1500 or so for the hardware.
You could build a pretty decent MEU-SOC type setup, revised in a couple spots for a touch over a grand - get a quality holster, belt, and start buying ammunition, but at that point you may find yourself wishing you had spent just a couple hundred more and gotten a TRP or TRP equivalent (e.g. a Colt Rail Gun with a reliability pkg and some new grips).
At minimum, you'll want to run new modern sights if you're spending that kind of cash, the GI style recoil plug setup, and unless the stock grips tickle your fancy you'll probably want to swap those too; a few top end magazines really helps, and spending too little on a holster for it doesn't do it any favors either.
willowofwisp
04-04-11, 05:25
I would probably throw down for a springfield Mil-spec and have Ned do his thing (although I think his wait time is in years LOL).
Or take a look at the new s&w E series, Hilton Yam posted up a pretty detailed review of it at 10-8 forums.
Springfield GI, But you'll still probably have to spend $300-$400 to get it to the point that you want. For the price you'll end up spending you could get a M&P 45, new holster, Doug trigger job, mags, and a TLR-1 for it.
Why do you want a 1911? I mean you shoot glocks and M&P's regularly...most guys tend not to trade down. I got rid of my 1911's. They were accurate and ergonomic, but a pain in the ars. I was constantly having to replace parts, ammo was finicky, and they holt a MAX of 10 rounds.
I would probably throw down for a springfield Mil-spec and have Ned do his thing (although I think his wait time is in years LOL).
This. The Mil-Spec is an excellent 'base' gun which many use for upgrades. You not need to spend a grand or more for a relaible 1911.
novak1911freak
04-04-11, 14:22
The 10-8 resource is a good one, here is also a link from a post by DocGKR talking about different guns as Duty/Carry guns and he discusses the 1911....
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
Citadel and Rock Island Armory both have 1911's that have some of those "upgraded" parts on them. Such as lowered and flared ejection port, beaver tail safety, skeleton trigger etc. They are cheap as well, probably about $550 or less depending on where u live/get it from. If you want to spend slightly more, you can get an STI spartan which come with adjustable sights and the fit on it is pretty good.
rbabbitt767
04-04-11, 14:35
I would also say that the Springfield Mil-Spec is the least expensive combination of out of the box competency and future upgrade-ability.
wetidlerjr
04-04-11, 15:39
You can get good deals in the Colt 1991 line. I would look at those before a Springfield. There is, also, the Colt Combat Elite which can be found under a grand and already has some of the more desired upgrades.
I carry a Colt "Wiley Clapp" LW Commander (see below) that had all I wanted except for grips and VZ solved that for me.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/wetidlerjr/Colt%201911/COLTLWTCOMM-WCa-1.jpg
Dave Berryhill
04-04-11, 15:53
What does Ned recommend? I'd suggest that you get his feedback since you plan on sending him the pistol for work.
You'll have to decide what enhancements overall that you want on your pistol, then decide which enhancements you want Ned to make and which you want the pistol to have from the factory.
For example, the Springfield Mil Spec and Springfield GI are similar pistols except for the ejection port, mag well bevel and sights. If you want Ned to work on the ejection port and mag well bevel then get the GI. If you are happy with these features as they come from Springfield Armory but just want a sight upgrade then get a Mil Spec.
If you are thinking about getting a Rock Island Armory or other 1911 made in the Philippines, make sure that your gunsmith will work on it before you buy it. Many 'smiths will not work on these pistols.
I already have an email in to Ned, waiting for a response. Figured I'd get a few more opinions while I wait, I'm sure he's plenty busy and won't respond right away.
To the O.P., listen to Dave Berryhill's advice. Dave has advised me before on several 1911 issues similar to yours, and has never steered me wrong yet. By the way, don't forget that Dave himself does incredible work on 1911's, and also sells quality parts in his store. I have no connection with Dave, just a satisfied customer.
Bottom line, if you want to get a basic 1911 stock and then have somebody upgrade it to a reliable fighting gun with "no frills", it's pretty much a no-brainer: do what a lot of the leading 1911 gunsmiths out there do. Start with a Springfield GI or Milspec, or a Colt Series 70 as your basic model, and then have them do a reliability package on it, plus any upgrades that you want such as sights, extractor, etc.
If you're willing to spend a little more from the get-go, you might consider getting a Springfield Operator (either the "lightweight" model, which I have, or the "MC Operator", which is the steel full weight govt model). These come with finishes, better sights, and a few extra features, so there won't be as much to upgrade. If you bought say an Springfield MC Operator, then have Ned do a reliability package on it, your total out of pocket could be in the range of $1300 to $1500, you'd have an AWESOME 1911, and you'd still be coming in well under the cost of a Wilson or even a Les Baer.
One other option to consider. If you want to get a gun that's pretty well set up and good-to-go, you might consider 2 guns in particular:
* Springfield TRP
* Dan Wesslon Valor
Both of these are in the $1400 to $1700 range and a lot of folks believe they are good to go out of the box. It would be worth looking at anyway, because by the time you buy a lower end model and customize, you'll have as much in it as these anyway, and your custom gun won't be completely under a lifetime warranty in all its feature set, like the Springfield TRP would be.
Good luck on your purchase.
theJanitor
04-04-11, 17:54
I can't imagine getting to the front of the line with Ned or Dave B, then giving them a turd to polish.
Dave's got great advice, especially from the OTHER side of the bench.
good luck. Not much in this world is as satisfying as a custom 1911 built to your (and your smith's) spec.
For a custom pistol base gun, I'd prefer a Series 70 Colt or a Springfield Armory Mil-Spec (NM frame) vice anything with a Series 80 FPS.
theJanitor
04-04-11, 18:50
I think it's been established that a S.80 colt can be a fine weapon
I think it's been established that a S.80 colt can be a fine weapon
Sure it can. But if I'm sending a 1911 off to a gunsmith for custom work, I'd prefer to send as blank a slate as possible, so to speak. My personal preference.
Now, I'm no smith like Dave is (and Dave, your work are some of the finest "combat custom" 1911s I've ever seen), but I'm pretty familiar with the 1911 platform.
As someone else has already said, if your not willing to spend the money to get a solid and reliable 1911, this isn't the platform for you. With "rack" 1911s, while you can save a few bucks on the pistol itself, you'll most likely end up spending a bunch of money on modifications that would place your total above and beyond what it would cost to just buy a solid gun from the start.
My recommendations would be along the lines of some of the semi or full custom 1911s. Fusion Firearms, Dave Berryhill's stuff, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, etc, are my recommendations. I love my Wilson, love my Nighthawk and I'm waiting for a new Fusion build. The quality more than justifies the prices.
H
Just my .02. I started with a Springer Mil-Spec. I shot it for about ten years, box stock. Over time I made a list of my likes and dislikes. A few years ago I found a local smith and he rebuilt the pistol to suit me. This way I got exactly the pistol I wanted, built for my needs.
Any opinions on a series 1 Kimber CDP? From what I've read the series 1's actually run...
theJanitor
04-05-11, 01:59
I have a series 1 kimber that's been to the smith's bench. they can be great guns, but I doubt anyone can de-dehorn that CDP.
they have the ugliest dehorn jobs I have ever seen.
You need to talk to the smith, before you buy anything, about what he recommends for the base gun, and also regarding options.
Most smiths have preferences based on their experience.
You can have it done right, fast, or cheap. Pick any two of those three.
Maybe this will help you some.
Springfield GI
Remington R1
RIA
Taurus PT1911
if you are going to the effort of sending it to a custom smith even for minimal mods, my vote is for Colt. You can usually find a good used colt 1991 for under 600 bucks and that is where I'd start. Hilton Yam on his website does suggest you need to accept the 1911 requires you "jump in the deep end of the pool" right off the bat. I agree. That said I have a very nice series 70 I found rough on the outside but good on the inside I sent to KS Customs (Kent Singeltary) and between the original gun cost and minimal modifications(in fact the package I selected was his minimalist package) I was into it for under 1K
i have yet to see griffon combat 1911s talked about. yay or nay? ive personally never even heard of them. this is a good thread, has answered every question i have had so far.
My thought with the Kimber was that it'll probably be pretty decent right out of the box, and would require little to no work by a reputable smith.
I also figured that should I not like it or find it too expensive to make reliable, they have great resale value. They seem to sell really well and people always have interest in them...even the newer ones.
I've been following Hilton's T&E on the new E series too. He seemed to indicate that folks at S&W are too. Good news there!
I would probably throw down for a springfield Mil-spec and have Ned do his thing (although I think his wait time is in years LOL).
Or take a look at the new s&w E series, Hilton Yam posted up a pretty detailed review of it at 10-8 forums.
Well I picked up the Kimber :rolleyes:
May not have been the brightest idea, but it's certainly the easiest. We'll see how it shoots. If it's reliable I don't see a need to change a whole lot...I'll probably have the slide coated black or maybe nickel boron, and the grip safety needs to be fitted better/replaced but other then that it's quite nice. Decent trigger, too. Oh and the ambi safety has to go.
wetidlerjr
04-05-11, 20:12
Well I picked up the Kimber :rolleyes: ...
If it's the Series 1 that you mentioned, you should be OK. Good luck and post pics after the work is done.
:D
Took it to the range today for a quick run with a hundred or so rounds...it didn't like the S&B 230gr ball too much, but for whatever reason did like the Win PDX1 JHP I fed it :confused: Must be opposite day or something :D
I'll try with some different ammo later. Out of 100 rounds of ball, two were a FTF, with the tip of the bullet hitting the top of the chamber. Fixed by releasing the slide a bit, allowing the bullet to drop into the chamber and sending it home. This was with what I presume is the stock Kimber mag...I'm going to buy some better mags and see what happens...still have plans to have a smith check it out and do any upgrades as necessary...or might try and trade it out for a government model 1911 (which I originally wanted).
Needs to be broken in, 500 rounds should do it, then see how it shoots with respect to FTF, FTE, etc...
It is used, unknown round count. Certainly not new by any stretch of the imagination judging by wear marks on the rails, FCG, etc.
Replace the recoil spring, that should sort out your fail to feed issue.
titsonritz
04-09-11, 22:02
Do the Springfield Mil-Spec and GI have a firing-pin block safety?
The last Springfield milspec I worked on did not have a firing pin safety. Don't know about the GI models.
From what I've read they don't...but I do believe they still have the ILS mainspring...
I ordered a couple springs from Wolff, stock weight and their 'improved' version for this pistol. Gonna see if the better spring will help out...the current one still feels pretty freakin' strong, but we'll see.
Do the Springfield Mil-Spec and GI have a firing-pin block safety?
No, they don't. The only major deviation from a "traditional" 1911 is the ILS in the mainspring housing.
titsonritz
04-12-11, 14:48
Thanks. Is the the case with all Springfields these day?
It’s been awhile since I’ve owed a 1911, I would like to get another one and prefer not to have the FPS. I was looking at the Colt Series 70 repro, but hate to pay for the name. I figure it’s easy enough to change out the mainspring housing lock on the Springer.
sounds snobbish but I won't have a foreign made 1911. of the U.S. made production guns Colt is the way to go. too many posts about kimbers being inconsistent- some work great others are a mess. As I mentioned before can't see dumping smithing money into a gun that says made in Brazil or made in the phillipines.
Do the Springfield Mil-Spec and GI have a firing-pin block safety?
What the Springfield models do--to stay as close to the traditional 1911 design as possible but still provide safety against an A.D. with a dropped pistol--is provide a super heavy-duty firing pin spring. It's not EXACTLY the same as the original 1911 design, but it's about as close as you can get and it provides an additional measure of safety without a complicating mechanism like the Swartz-style safeties on some other modern 1911's.
Also, changing out the ILS locking mechanism on a springfield is incredibly easy, anybody can do it and it probably won't take you more than 5 to 10 minutes, even the first time you try. Just use your Google foo, or search around on a good 1911 site like http://forums.1911forum.com in the Springfield area, and there are usually recent posts there with a quick set of steps on how to get rid of the ILS. Most folks these days recommend simply replacing the MSH (which costs $30 to $50 for the part, depending which MSH you buy), but you can also replace just the small parts for $6 to $10, and keep your original MSH with the little ILS lock hole. It doesn't hurt a thing, and works just fine. I did mine that way.
Here's one such thread, find the post by DeltaKilo, it lists the basic steps:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=209485
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