View Full Version : NFA wants my Schedule A for Transfere ???????
I posted this also on Silencer Talk wanted to get your take on it also
OK,
A little background info.
I live in Georgia, this is not my first NFA transfer using my trust (#4)
What I sent-
o 2x Form 4
o 2x Citizen Cards
o 1x Declaration of trust minus Schedule A (I read here NFA wants that now)
o 1x Certification of Trust
o My Money
I had my form 4 go pending on the 11th of this month I called yesterday to see if it was approved lady said not yet it was sent to Ms. Flanigan (new examiner) for final approval. I asked to be transferred to her desk. I spoke to her she said she could not find my paperwork but she had a pile of trust transferees to look thru. She found mine in there, but she said there was a problem with my paperwork I was missing my schedule A. I was very polite and said that when I first did my trust that I have sent one in with my original paperwork and you should have a copy on file. I also told here that my schedule A now has a lot of personal items on it that I do not want out in the open or a matter of public record, she politely said that she needs it to complete the transfer and could not approve it without the Schedule A. (Very bad words and comments are going thru my mind and I had the good mind set to close the cake hole below my nose before I screwed myself) Yes, I do have my NFA items on it also. She said that she had called Allen over at Polite Society about needing the transferee's Schedule A's also .Allen did tell her that she was mistaken and the Certification of Trust by Georgia law was all that was needed. She told me that she did bring this to her supervisor’s attention and he stated that the Schedule A was needed. I just wanted my form 4 approved, I asked her if she would take an e-mailed copy. She said yes so I went in and took off all of my personal stuff on my Schedule A and left my NFA items and e-mailed her it. I stayed on the phone until she opened it up and said that it was good to go. She also said she was going to call Polite Society tomorrow. So I called Allen last night told him what happened and he was a little upset that they wanted it and said that he looks forward to her call and said if she does not call he will call her. And try and get it squared away for future transfers. I told him that I was going to post it here he said great he wanted to get the NFA communities take on it and to email him the link. So did I screw up by sending my Schedule A in? Should I have waited till she had Allen or Mark from Polite Society talk to the decision makers at the NFA? All I can say is if your forms go pending for awhile call and check something may be wrong. Ms. Flanigan was nice and professional I just think that who ever trained her leave a little to be desired. I went back and added all my personal stuff back on my trust and will wait for the call to come get my M4-1000.
I included my Sch A when I sent mine in. But it was the first pass at the Trust route for me and thus my silencer was the only thing on it.
The guys at silencertalk indeed said it was not necessary.
I hear there has been alot of confusion on this lately due to some states requiring people to register Trust with the state to make them legit and other states not requiring it..
For states that do require registration,I can see the need for the extra paperwork as verification of legitamacy..It does seem that the BATF could easliy compile a list of states that do require this and those that do not..
Im about to my first form 1 since all this has started,so it will be interesting to see how it works out..
I included my Sch A when I sent mine in. But it was the first pass at the Trust route for me and thus my silencer was the only thing on it.
The guys at silencertalk indeed said it was not necessary.
Mark-
How can it be on your Schedule A when you apply for the suppressor in the first place? You are supposed to add an item to your Schedule A once it's been approved.
Maybe the NFA knows trusts are "in" now and want to be sure people are holding up their end of the deal and completing the requirements- to place the items in the Schedule once the forms are approved and do it using the proper methods.
Mark-
How can it be on your Schedule A when you apply for the suppressor in the first place? You are supposed to add an item to your Schedule A once it's been approved.
Hell if I know! The dealer set up the Trust for me. He put it in the trust. The Gubment approved it so I have no idea. I just want my dang can, Man!
Did an attorney prepare this trust?
Mark (bookhound) from PSI posted this on silencer talk to the thread I had there.
Well, Allen just resolved this with our new inspector, Nancy Flanigan. For the record Nancy has been VERY pleasant and responsive. ATF's legal folks are now saying that since the Declaration references the Schedule A, the Schedule A MUST be included.
You can no longer send just a Certification of Trust or Declaration of Trust without the Schedule A. You can redact any items on the Schedule A that are not NFA items. You need to initial next to the redacted items.
Honestly, since they only want NFA items on the Schedula A it sounds more to me like they are trying to either make sure people are updating their Trusts properly with the NFA items or that they are trying to use that information to verify their NFA registry. Either way, they did say you could redact non-NFA items on the Schedule A.
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Now for Mark's editorial (not PSI's view; just Mark's opinion):
I think the Schedule A is still no one's business. The Declaration of Trust properly notarized is proof of the legal entity without having to disclose the assets of that legal entity. The legal purpose of a Certification of Trust document is specifically to obfuscate details (people's names, property, etc.) of the Trust while still proving the legal Trust exists. That this legal document not be viewed sufficient is, to me, not correct. But, what are ya gonna do? We play by the rules that are made up as we go. The NFA branch folks are at the mercy of their legal advisors.
Them allowing us to hide all assets on the Schedule A except for NFA items makes me wonder why they want to see the NFA items. It can only be for the two reasons I mentioned earlier.
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There ya go, boys and girls. Better send in them Schedule As!
Mark
_________________
Polite Society, Inc.
FFL/SOT
Heres an interesting question..When updating the trust,a letter of amendment should be filled out..When you print this out with the updated information,large grey letters appear on the document running diagonally across the entire page stating "duplicate"..
Question is does the entire document now need to be re-noterized??
.... ATF's legal folks are now saying that since the Declaration references the Schedule A, the Schedule A MUST be included.
I don't have my Trust paperwork in front of me, but my gut tells me that the Certification of Trust doesn't say anything about Schedules A or B - just certifies that the Trust does exist and states what the powers of the Trustee are.
Maybe it's the wording of your Cert. of Trust or the fact that you sent the Declaration itself that's the problem.
So now they are making up new rules. Great. The Trust and Certificate of Trust and Schedule A all have their own page numbering systems because they are all separate.
The reason they are separate is so you can send in the certificate without any pages being missing because you have the option (or should have the option) of not giving them the details.
Mark (bookhound) from PSI posted this on silencer talk to the thread I had there.
Well, Allen just resolved this with our new inspector, Nancy Flanigan. For the record Nancy has been VERY pleasant and responsive. ATF's legal folks are now saying that since the Declaration references the Schedule A, the Schedule A MUST be included.
You can no longer send just a Certification of Trust or Declaration of Trust without the Schedule A. You can redact any items on the Schedule A that are not NFA items. You need to initial next to the redacted items.
Honestly, since they only want NFA items on the Schedula A it sounds more to me like they are trying to either make sure people are updating their Trusts properly with the NFA items or that they are trying to use that information to verify their NFA registry. Either way, they did say you could redact non-NFA items on the Schedule A.
***************************
Now for Mark's editorial (not PSI's view; just Mark's opinion):
I think the Schedule A is still no one's business. The Declaration of Trust properly notarized is proof of the legal entity without having to disclose the assets of that legal entity. The legal purpose of a Certification of Trust document is specifically to obfuscate details (people's names, property, etc.) of the Trust while still proving the legal Trust exists. That this legal document not be viewed sufficient is, to me, not correct. But, what are ya gonna do? We play by the rules that are made up as we go. The NFA branch folks are at the mercy of their legal advisors.
Them allowing us to hide all assets on the Schedule A except for NFA items makes me wonder why they want to see the NFA items. It can only be for the two reasons I mentioned earlier.
***************************
There ya go, boys and girls. Better send in them Schedule As!
Mark
_________________
Polite Society, Inc.
FFL/SOT
If they are allowing you to redact assets in the trust then how can they legally mandate you leave the NFA items visible? If it were me I'd redact the whole thing and send it in.
The whole point of a trust is that you don't have to tell anyone what you've got. I would redact everything, too.
I've got a form 4 (on a trust) in the pipe as we speak, and I have not been informed of a need to send additional paperwork yet.
recieved my Form 4 back approved and the ATF lawyer says that they must be able to VALIDATE your trust that is why they want it so they say. I think that there records are so ****ED up this is a way to update there records.
recieved my Form 4 back approved and the ATF lawyer says that they must be able to VALIDATE your trust that is why they want it so they say. I think that there records are so ****ED up this is a way to update there records.
And just how is this supposed to validate anything.:confused: Thats the purpose of a Certification of Trust...
Don Robison
10-14-07, 16:11
What exactly are they validating with the schedule A; other than if you transfered ownership of previous NFA items to the trust?
yeah, that's what they want to make sure of like it's any of their business.
It's not their business how you drive your car or how your Trust gets it's paperwork in order after the fact.
But, that's what they want to see most likely.
I do know that it took me "some time" to fire up Quicken and add my first item...
Come to think of it- that's on an old HDD that crashed. What do I do now?
First thing, calm down. The reason that they need to see the Schedule "A' is because the trust document itself references the Schedule "A". The second reason is because in order to validly establish the trust you have to fund it with something. Typically the attorney will list something like "$10.00" in the schedule "A" of your trust. IU can't speak for what some of the DIY programs do. So the Schedule "A" is a necessary part of the trust and hence is required by ATF. There is no requirement that you add each NFA item to the schedule "A". Most people never amend their Schedule "A". However if you want to go right ahead. The Form 4 or 1 is the proof of the trust ownership of the item. And no you cant add an NFA item to the Schedule "A" before you get the form back from ATF. The transfer has to be approved first. The ATF has the right to know what ever NFA items you have as an individual, what makes you think that because you use a trust that they don't have the right to see on the trust what NFA assets you have listed. Hell, if they want to know they can always look it up on the computer or schedule an inspection with you if they want to. The Form 4 & Form 1 are tax documents and as such are private as well as anything you attach to the forms. If you don't want them to know what else you have in the trust, then don't list it on the Schedule A and they will never know or set up a separate NFA only trust from the one you have your general assets in. I am the attorney who wrote the small arms review article on NFA trusts and am the one who can be blamed for starting the recent trust explosion, so I know what I am talking about here. Long story short, the AFT can ask for what they want and can generally change their minds when they want, within reason. If you don't want to play their game, then don't and don't expect to get your approved forms. I started doing the trusts for clients because it is a simpler/cheaper route than going corporate and has some benefits over individual ownership. Folks are really trying to make this whole thing more difficult than it has to be. When sending a Form 1 or 4 send in a copy of the whole trust (which includes the schedule A) and you are good to go. And lastly on using a store bought form or program for your trust. It may help you legally establish the trust and you may be O.K. But you generally never find out there is a problem until it is too late. Have one on my desk right now that a fellow did himself and if he were to die, the testamentary provisions in this one would be invalid under florida law (meaning that they would not go the beneficiaries he had selected).
Bob Howell, Esq., FFL/SOT
Hey Bob, good to see you here adding clarity to the NFA world. This thread was one of the reasons I called you a couple of weeks ago.
Thanks for keeping us informed and educated.
First thing, calm down. The reason that they need to see the Schedule "A' is because the trust document itself references the Schedule "A". The second reason is because in order to validly establish the trust you have to fund it with something. Typically the attorney will list something like "$10.00" in the schedule "A" of your trust. IU can't speak for what some of the DIY programs do. So the Schedule "A" is a necessary part of the trust and hence is required by ATF. There is no requirement that you add each NFA item to the schedule "A". Most people never amend their Schedule "A". However if you want to go right ahead. The Form 4 or 1 is the proof of the trust ownership of the item. And no you cant add an NFA item to the Schedule "A" before you get the form back from ATF. The transfer has to be approved first. The ATF has the right to know what ever NFA items you have as an individual, what makes you think that because you use a trust that they don't have the right to see on the trust what NFA assets you have listed. Hell, if they want to know they can always look it up on the computer or schedule an inspection with you if they want to. The Form 4 & Form 1 are tax documents and as such are private as well as anything you attach to the forms. If you don't want them to know what else you have in the trust, then don't list it on the Schedule A and they will never know or set up a separate NFA only trust from the one you have your general assets in. I am the attorney who wrote the small arms review article on NFA trusts and am the one who can be blamed for starting the recent trust explosion, so I know what I am talking about here. Long story short, the AFT can ask for what they want and can generally change their minds when they want, within reason. If you don't want to play their game, then don't and don't expect to get your approved forms. I started doing the trusts for clients because it is a simpler/cheaper route than going corporate and has some benefits over individual ownership. Folks are really trying to make this whole thing more difficult than it has to be. When sending a Form 1 or 4 send in a copy of the whole trust (which includes the schedule A) and you are good to go. And lastly on using a store bought form or program for your trust. It may help you legally establish the trust and you may be O.K. But you generally never find out there is a problem until it is too late. Have one on my desk right now that a fellow did himself and if he were to die, the testamentary provisions in this one would be invalid under florida law (meaning that they would not go the beneficiaries he had selected).
Bob Howell, Esq., FFL/SOT
Good info as always Bob,yes youre the one my wife has to blame thanks to a thread on Sigforums:D
For those of us that have gone the DIY route,how much trouble is it to have a lawyer come back and bullet proof it??Whats the typical fee for something like this??
It depends upon the person you talk to. Alot of attorneys won't review someone elses documents, particularly if they were self prepared. The liability is too great given the amount of cash you can charge for the time. As for me, I generally dont review self prepared documents for this very reason. The cost would be more than if I had just done the trust to begin with. The problem, more often than not, is not if the trust is validly created. The usually problem lies with the disposition of the assets in the event of the incapacity or death of the grantor.
Bob Howell, Esq., FFL/SOT
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