WATER-based Cleaners: What & How do YOU use them?

[Rmplstlskn]

With my Slip-2000 Carbon Killer rant (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78241) behind me and more calmed down, I am curious what WATER-based cleaners others are using and how are you using it...

First, I still have a hard time getting my head wrapped around the whole "using WATER-based cleaners" on metal parts with crevices, connections and matings, some not easily reached with a rag to "wipe off" these water-based cleaners as instructions dictate. This then leaves this water-based product on surfaces of the weapon where we are then instructed to add oil to these metal parts as these water-based cleaners remove ALL OIL RESIDUE (rust potential).

Basic Science 101 tells me OIL and WATER do not mix, so what is happening with this water-based cleaners in places like where the Barrel Extension slides into the upper? On the muzzle crown deeply hidden inside the flash suppressor? Other steel nooks and crannies? What about BLUED steel guns? Just wondering...

That said, I have been using M-Pro7 / Hoppes Elite products (NON-water-based~SOLVENT-based) for years with excellent results. But because I confess I still do not understand the whole water/oil thing above, I usually blast all parts clean with some non-chlorinated BRAKE CLEANER and then blow it dry with my air compressor. My parts always come out wonderfully clean, I oil them up, re-assemble, and I'm DONE...

But lately (as my rant linked above shows), I have been trying to get away from the brake cleaner and just follow the DIRECTIONS on the cleaners... The directions say to "WIPE OFF" the cleaner and then "OIL the part" as all oil residues have been removed. All well and good, but I see areas in my AR's and FAL that I cannot get a rag to or into, so that "water-based cleaner" remains on those surfaces... I then generously oil the parts (which I hope overpowers the oil/water seperation science thingy going on)...

So I am curious what others who actually clean their firearms do? (The "I never clean my AR/AK/FAL, I just keep the OIL flowing" hard-core shooters need not reply, as I secretly envy you, as I am too gutless to not clean my guns... and I think I like cleaning them too... :eek:)

I'm curious to see other responses and learn from them...

Rmpl

[Terlingueno]

I clean my AK's after shooting corrosive Yugo M67 by mixing one part Ballistol to nine parts hot water. Then lube with Aeroshell Fluid 18. No corrosion.

[Rmplstlskn]

I forgot to add to the above:

On parts like the bolt, carrier and other small parts, I rinse the cleaner off with water and then use compressed air to dry...

Rmpl

[Zzzake]

Also have a question on water based cleaner like mpro7 and slip 2k degreaser. Is it safe to leave parts in them for long period of time? If i get the gun really dirty, would it be ok to take the BCG (taken apart of course), hand gun barrel/parts and just leave them soaked in a small container filled with mpro7 or slip 2k at night and clean them the next morning? Reason i ask is i found the longer i soak them, the easier it is to clean.

Thanks
-Dennis

[Iraqgunz]

When I clean my AR SBR (which isn't often) I remove the BCG and wipe it down with a rag. When it is really nasty I use Mpro7 as well. I submerge the entire BCG in a plastic container and let it sit (sometimes overnight). Then I disassemble, do a wipe down and look for problems.

I spray some Mpro into the receiver and scrub with a toothbrush. I then wipe it out good and follow up with the air compressor. I hit the barrel with some Hopppe's 7.62 and occasionally some Barretts Bore Cleaner.

I lube eveything lightly (until I go to the range) and put it next to the bed. That's it.

[darr3239]

When I clean my AR SBR (which isn't often) I remove the BCG and wipe it down with a rag. When it is really nasty I use Mpro7 as well. I submerge the entire BCG in a plastic container and let it sit (sometimes overnight). Then I disassemble, do a wipe down and look for problems.


What fluid is in the container when you let it soak?

[Belmont31R]

I've been using carbon cutter for well over a year now. It will not get rid of baked on carbon. It works well for the loose stuff.



I just dip a USGI cleaning brush into the jar, and scrub down the inside of the upper and into the barrel extension as far as I can go. Spray foaming bore cleaner into the barrel, and let it soak.


While that is soaking I break down the BCG, and scrub each part with carbon cutter. Once everything is scrubbed I put the bolt into the carrier, and put the BCG into the jar of carbon cutter. That that soak.


Then wipe down the lower reciever, relube the trigger, ect.


Once that is done I chuck up a cleaning rod section into my cordless drill (I know :D), set on its lowest speed, and use a nylon chamber brush on the end of the cleaning rod section. Dip chamber brush into carbon cutter. Insert it through the rear of the receiver, and get the brush into the chamber. Feather the trigger on the drill for about 5 seconds.


Take upper outside and spray everything out with brake cleaner.


Take BCG out of carbon cutter jar, and spray each piece off with brake cleaner. Clean tail of bolt.

Let them dry off.

Take oily rag and wipe down all parts. Take bottle of Slip EWL, and lube BCG and on small drop on top of the CH. Take bore snake, put a couple drops on the tail. Run through bore a couple times.

Re assemble everything, wipe exterior down with dry cloth, functions check, and done.


When I decide to do a further cleaning of the bore (maybe once every 5k rds on a CL barrel and every couple thousand on an SS barrel) I use a dewey rod with slip copper cutter, one extra time with the foaming bore cleaner, patches, nylon bore brush, ect.




There is nothing I have used that gets hardened/baked on carbon off with any sense of speed. Never had a problem with carbon cutter hurting the finish. Used it on many AR's, pistols, and a shotgun. Ive been pleased with its performance on my firearms.

[Iraqgunz]

Mpro7.


What fluid is in the container when you let it soak?

[Unicorn]

Read their FAQ on their page. M-pro7 claims to not be water based. Also for the hard to reach areas they say to use compressed air to remove it.

[ZRH]

Luckily most steel AR parts are parkerized, chromed, or at least passivated. Serious rust is never an issue unless they are left unattended. Real uncoated steel will grow red rust from the moisture in the air in seconds.

Your question is more like how do you dry an AR :p Hair dryers work great (don't think "then heat guns must be better" because they are too hot) >.> That's how I've always dryed steel tools, firearms, etc after they take a bath. Dawn dish soap works great for degreasing stuff and costs half as much as other stuff (I've used it to degrease automotive parts with much success).

[Rmplstlskn]

Read their FAQ on their page. M-pro7 claims to not be water based. Also for the hard to reach areas they say to use compressed air to remove it.

Well that answers my "wet head" AR question... I just need to continue to give it a, ummmm, "blow job." :p

Rmpl

[Rmplstlskn]

oops...

[aflin]

Dawn dish soap works great for degreasing stuff and costs half as much as other stuff.

Hmm, never heard of that trick before. I gotta try that sometime

[Littlelebowski]

Why don't you go spend $3 on a can of non chlorinated brake cleaner and then instead of obsessing over stupid crap like how to clean, go.....shoot? Go run Dot Torture and El Presidente with a clean gun and then a dirty gun. See how much difference it makes.

Go. Shoot.

[Rmplstlskn]

Why don't you go spend $3 on a can of non chlorinated brake cleaner and then instead of obsessing over stupid crap like how to clean, go.....shoot? Go run Dot Torture and El Presidente with a clean gun and then a dirty gun. See how much difference it makes.

Go. Shoot.

Why stomp on threads you don't care for or dislike? This is a growing problem in M4Carbine, often among senior members...

I did say this in my OP:

(The "I never clean my AR/AK/FAL, I just keep the OIL flowing" hard-core shooters need not reply, as I secretly envy you, as I am too gutless to not clean my guns... and I think I like cleaning them too... )

[Littlelebowski]

Trust me, I held back. Your thread wasn't "stomped on."

I gave you good advice. You will be done cleaning quickly and in an efficient manner with a $3 bottle of non chlorinated brake cleaner. Did you not see where I wrote that or are you simply choosing to ignore it?

Now listen. I've been down the path you're on. You WILL get more enjoyment out of your weapons by treating them like the tools that they actually are instead of engaging in worship of inanimate objects by scrubbing and inspecting. Go to a class. Win a shooting drill. Try becoming proficient with your weapons instead of being proficient at making them look pretty.

Though it's 1911 focused, 1911forum.com has legions of folks who obsess over how to clean, what to clean, what to clean what with, what grips express who you are to onlookers, and so on. If you choose not to treat your weapon as a tool, that forum is an excellent place to debate how to get that little bit of carbon out.

Go. Shoot. Come back. Tell us about it. Did you dry fire today? How are your reloads? Who do you plan to train with next? How much ammo do you have set aside for training classes? What is your score on Dot Torture (http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture) cold?

Or worry about cleaning. I like to shoot my guns myself and clean every few thousand rounds.

[warpigM-4]

when shooting old Black powder rifles during my days doing Civil war reenacting ,we used Glass cleaner(windex) In the Barrels followed By Hot water .it cleaned them well and got all the build up out

[Rmplstlskn]

Now listen. I've been down the path you're on. You WILL get more enjoyment out of your weapons by treating them like the tools that they actually are instead of engaging in worship of inanimate objects by scrubbing and inspecting.

But you assumed you knew the whole story (used clean gun at range once, now full-out anal cleaning to bring back to clean)... I've been around too... But it did LOOK LIKE I was an excessive cleaner... Poor wording in my part, trying to be humorous...

The whole story is that my XDm was filthy since using it since the fall UNCLEANED in any manner, 100's of rounds later, and I wanted it ready for IDPA season... so I cleaned it.

The AR is my wifes that I bought used (last cleaning unknown) and rarely gets used. It may sit in the safe for 6 months, who knows... So after sighting in RDS and BUIS, I wanted it clean...

My AR is sitting in my safe uncleaned since several range trips ago, ready for fun... I don't think this is excessive, compulsive cleaning...

Thanks for the advice, I really have chilled out on cleaning my guns, seeing them as tools, not collections, but I think the suject matter of the OP is a valid AR General discussion... The water-based cleaners is a new method with some confusion... Like that green scum I mentioned in another thread.

Also, recently found, deep down in their web sites info/FAQ's they say to use AIR to remove the water-based cleaner from areas not reachable with a rag and dry it BEFORE oiling... That is not on the bottles, which is why I brought up the oil-v-water comments... (Brake cleaner does the same job too...)

I have used brake cleaner for years until I tried to actually follow the directions on the bottle, leading to my wondering what others do... And it seems I was in good company all along with the brake cleaner, a method I have NEVER seen anywhere in any "gun cleaner" instructions...

Rmpl

[maximus83]

Mpro-7 IMO is the best cleaner I've ever used, have used it for several years and can't find anything better.

A couple of things to keep in mind with it:

* It does have corrosion protection agents built into it. You can soak a part with light surface rust and Mpro will even remove the rust.

* It is generally harmless to metal. You can soak metal parts for "weeks" in Mpro, according to their site, and it will not harm them.

So, why do they say you have to "remove" the excess Mpro cleaner when you spray into certain areas of your gun. Here's what they say on their site:

Question:
I got cleaner in the action and firing pin chamber. How can I remove it and properly lubricate so they don’t get “gummed” up?

Answer:
The gun cleaner can dry into a wax-like coating that is not a lubricant, so removal is important in those areas. Compressed air works well (i.e. keyboard cleaner/air in a can). You can also “over” oil the action. The “extra” oil will absorb the gun cleaner residue and drain off. Place one or two drops of the gun oil in the firing pin chamber to keep it from gumming up. Otherwise, we recommend a full submersion in M Pro7 Gun Oil. This way it ensures that all parts are thoroughly lubricated. After submerging, you can wipe off all excess oil and it is ready to shoot.

[Spiffums]

when shooting old Black powder rifles during my days doing Civil war reenacting ,we used Glass cleaner(windex) In the Barrels followed By Hot water .it cleaned them well and got all the build up out

A lot of people who shoot 5.45 AKs just use windex and hot water and let them dry in the sun.

[Terlingueno]

It's the water in the Windex that does the trick. There is no ammonia in Windex, just alcohol. Plain water works just as well.

[philipeggo]

I really like threads like this since it gives me some food for thought. I am one of those anal cleaner types on my handguns. I dont care if i dont have to do it it just makes me feel better knowing my guns are free of debris and well lubed. That being said i never paid much stock to what my cleaner used as a base. I just always used hoppes since it was cheap and always available. Thinking about buying a foaming bore cleaner to save myself time when i clean my new ar (if i ever finish building it) so its really interesting to see how you more experienced guys clean and what not. Gives me a better idea of what to do myself. Thanks !!

[Markasaurus]

I've tried Mpro 7 on carbon on the bolt tail and in the flash hider at the muzzle carbon. It was not efective even when soaked, scrubbed and scraped with bamboo skewers. These "green" products are great for the environment but usually don't work.

So far to clean tough carbon I have tried: brake cleaner, CLP, acetone, mpro-7, none of these worked. So after reading some posts about carbon I have settled on a mix of 60 or 70% odorless mineral spirits, 29% acetone and an oz or t2wo of CLP. The CLP prevents the parts from being bone-dry.

Soaking the bolt parts, bolt carrier and muzzle (invert muzzle in a glass jar) makes cleaning the carbon off much easier.

Water based gun cleaners are something I won't be buying anymore. Water + gun parts after all is seldom a good thing. Sure the US army recommends water cleaning in the field when nothing better is available, but they emphasize that water should be BOILING hot so it will evaporate immediately.

[Joe Mamma]

I used to use M-Pro 7 to clean. I thought it was great and bought a very large bottle when my first bottle ran out. Then I would use it from a generic small clear plastic bottle that I would refill with the larger bottle.

After I was using it for a while, I noticed white clumps of something (they looked liked flakes of a gooey gel) floating around in it. I called the company and they sent me another bottle. Eventually, the same white clumps formed. I spoke to the company again and they said it was normal. Maybe that's why I've always seen it sold in opaque bottles and always with a spray nozzle.

I don't use M-Pro 7 anymore. It seems like a bad idea to use a cleaner with solids (or semisolids) floating around in it.

I use a 50/50 mixture of Shooters Choice and Kroil. There are probably better things out there. But this works really well for me.

Joe Mamma

[Jpm350z]

Ive always been intrested in buying mpro 7 to clean my AR, but never wanted to pay the price for the spay bottle. ive just stuck to CLP, let it soak over night, brush off, wipe, lube and ready to go. i like keeping my stuff squeaky clean just because its a big investment and like also like seeing them clean. i mean who doesnt like a clean gun. i use the compressor on occasion just to get the stubborn dirt out. Comparing the mpro 7 to CLP, which do you think works the best.

[Markasaurus]

Ive always been intrested in buying mpro 7 to clean my AR, but never wanted to pay the price for the spay bottle. ive just stuck to CLP, let it soak over night, brush off, wipe, lube and ready to go. i like keeping my stuff squeaky clean just because its a big investment and like also like seeing them clean. i mean who doesnt like a clean gun. i use the compressor on occasion just to get the stubborn dirt out. Comparing the mpro 7 to CLP, which do you think works the best.

neither, odorless mineral spirits liken i said. If you have tough carbon on the bolt tail and inside the end of the bolt etc., compared to the other stuff i tried like both of the above, the mineral spirits (sometimes sold under the name "stoddard solvent") will help you remove it faster then anything else.
You will still have to attack and agitate the parts with soft tools like bamboo skewers and brass scrapers (steel cleaning tools no no NO!) no matter what chemical you use unless you want to soak your parts for a week.

Ths first time i fired my stag cleaning the carbon off the bolt tail drove me up a wall. I tried literally everything and it took me two days to get it off. They say you can still shoot it just fine with all that carbon there and i'm sure many people do, but i don't like to do that i prefer to clean it off. After trying the things you mentioned and finally getting that dang bolt clean, i spent $55 for a chrome plated bolt from stag. now the carbon still requires scrubbing but comes off much much faster off the chrome plate. Just soak for 10 minutes, and use a scotch brite pad to get the carbon (i cut mine into two inch wide strips).
I was worried there might even be head-space problems with a new chrome plated bolt, because even the army warns never to swap bolts between guns. But i put two hundred rounds through it afterwards and it shot fine.

As an aside i also bought a titanium coated cam pin from midway or somebody. The coating seemed to make no difference at all: the squiggly wear pattern on the pin went right through the coating after only 200 rounds, same as on the stock cam pins. (yes it was lubed). So my advise is don't bother with these, no apparent advantage over the standard mil-spec one.

[Iraqgunz]

Stop obsessing about carbon. Just do a basic cleaning and lube it up. Don't worry about build up on the bolt tail.


I've tried Mpro 7 on carbon on the bolt tail and in the flash hider at the muzzle carbon. It was not efective even when soaked, scrubbed and scraped with bamboo skewers. These "green" products are great for the environment but usually don't work.

So far to clean tough carbon I have tried: brake cleaner, CLP, acetone, mpro-7, none of these worked. So after reading some posts about carbon I have settled on a mix of 60 or 70% odorless mineral spirits, 29% acetone and an oz or t2wo of CLP. The CLP prevents the parts from being bone-dry.

Soaking the bolt parts, bolt carrier and muzzle (invert muzzle in a glass jar) makes cleaning the carbon off much easier.

Water based gun cleaners are something I won't be buying anymore. Water + gun parts after all is seldom a good thing. Sure the US army recommends water cleaning in the field when nothing better is available, but they emphasize that water should be BOILING hot so it will evaporate immediately.

[vicious_cb]

So that combo works on carbon on the muzzle crown? I could care less about by bolt tails being dirty, but I do worry about build up around the crown or the in the muzzle device affecting accuracy.

[Markasaurus]

So that combo works on carbon on the muzzle crown? I could care less about by bolt tails being dirty, but I do worry about build up around the crown or the in the muzzle device affecting accuracy.

I prefer not to let the carbon build up on any of the parts. Carbon cannot be dissolved by ANY chemical that wouldn't also dissolve your gun. So the best you can hope for is to soften it even a little.

The problem with cleaning the crown area is of course, the more you mess about with tools in this area the more you risk damaging the muzzle (goodbye accuracy). so using the bamboo skewers along with the most effective solvent is probably the best course.

Unless you want to remove the flash hider every cleaning (i don't want to remove it at all if it isn't broken) you can do a good enough job just by soaking the muzzle in the jar with the mineral spirits. Then scrape out what you can with the skewers and repeat in between cleaning with the rest of your gun. Whatever i get off after finishing the rest of the rifle, i call it good enough as it eliminates the build up and i don't want to spend the entire day messing with this crap lol.

When i put the rifle away i put in a few drops of CLP inside the flash hider and let it soak, i know it's safe to leave it in there, unlike a lot of cleaning chemicals you could name. if you come back to it in the next three days it will probably still be wet and you can use a q-tip to get out a little more carbon each time if you like.

[Littlelebowski]

Markosaurus, what accuracy gains do you see after such cleaning as opposed to not cleaning? How often must one perform such cleaning before accuracy drops off?