View Full Version : What exactly is wrong with the M&P's
I am starting read things about how certain people are not digging on the M&P's anymore due to various reasons. I am wondering what those reasons are and how should they be remedied?
I own two M&P's(9FS and 9C, both LEO guns) that have had many thousands of rounds through them with no malfunctions that werent due to my, at times, marginal reloads. I know my sample size is small, but its all I have and not to many people around here shoot M&P's.
militarymoron
04-05-11, 22:27
from my sample size of one (full size M&P 9mm) - i had to send it back to the factory for a tight chamber (would not always go into complete battery) and rust on the slide. it got fixed promptly - S&W customer service was great.
i really wanted to like the M&P when it first came out, and bought it to replace my G19. however, i cannot shoot it as accurately as my other 9's, and i don't think it's me. i just could not achieve my normal level of accuracy with it, and when i switched to other pistols, everything was back to 'normal'. i tested it side by side at an indoor range with my G19 with two different types of ammo, and i could not hold what i feel to be my normal group size that i can hold with most of my other handguns. group size was at least double that of any other handgun.
accuracy is a touchy subject, and most of the time, i'd look at myself first as the cause of any accuracy issues. but this time, it doesn't seem the case. i've gone back to my glocks.
I dont know where you have been reading.. but what I read is many people like m&p. I have a mp9, almost 4000 rounds in 5 months and 0 issue. I like it.
I am not saying it is the best gun.. but it is pretty good and reliable as many other brands. and not many people have to like it, but I think it is getting more and more popular, and some mp can have some issues like other brands.
for me it feel more comfortable in my hand, less recoil/muzzle flip..
the only 2 things I would like is a mp mid size like glock 19.. my hands arent so big and the g19 fit my hands perfectly and conceal a little better than the mp. I live in FL, so it is hot almost all the year..
other thing I would change is the trigger reset.
davebee456
04-05-11, 22:38
inconsistent factory triggers is one thing that scares me I have been doing some shopping around at local stores and every gun feels different dry firing them.
I switched back to a Glock 19 Gen 3 after almost a year (maybe a little less) with my M&P9.
I didn't find anything particularly "wrong" with it. I simply prefer the size/weight, the trigger (I've tried Apex components), and I how I shoot with the Glock 19. I try to be as objective as possible when it comes to the evaluation of a product, especially when my money is on the line, but I have a very subjective preference for the overall handling and shooting characteristics of the Glock. I don't have multiple trials and test data on the range with a timer comparing split times, and the like; though, I wish I had for the sake of having the data available.
I didn't notice any discernible difference in accuracy between my two samples, so I can't comment on that.
Sucky triggers... but mine has been reliable so far.
My wife got the first M&P in our house, a 9C. She probably has about a case through it so far, her big complaint is the lack of a tactile trigger reset. Unfortunately, as this is an agency approved alternate carry/BUG she can't put an APEX kit in it. She is hoping for a S&W installed FCG in the future to correct the problem. It was my exposure to her pistol that convinced me that I wanted one. Me, I just pulled the trigger on a VTAC 9mm for range use, it'll probably end up with an APEX kit in it, we'll see after I shoot it.
The problem I see with the M&P is that it is a pistol that is almost there, hopefully S&W listens to users and makes a few factory tweaks. The M&P is the only domestic polymer pistol and the only real competitor to the Glock, which is also suffering from recent growing pains but is still the standard for ease of use and price point.
Personally, I am a big HK fan. I have or have had four as duty weapons. They have never let me down, they are unfortunately the most expensive handguns I have ever owned. I wish there were other quality striker-fired or LEM type polymer handguns out there to pick from, God knows the P250 and the XD aren't it when it comes to M&P or Glock alternatives. I think the FN's hold a lot of promise, the DA/SA's I have shot have been excellent pistols for the money but I am not a DA/SA guy so they offer little for me. If they can get a striker-fired pistol to the U.S. market, FN will be a company to watch. Till then S&W is the only real contender to Glock for a duty grade pistol at that price point, warts and all.
It doesn't come in Glock 19 sized 9mm and .40S&W packages.
That's the biggest failing in the series as I see it from a non-LEO perspective.
Have five (four 9's, one 45acp). No complaints. The more I shoot them, the more I like them. IN fact, I've decided to retire my 1911's and sold off all our Glocks due to our positive experiences with the M&P's. A friend of mine bought an early 9mm for his son, who was the IPSC junior champ in Kentucky a few times and the kid put well over 9,000 rounds through it in a very short period of time without a hitch. He's at least tripled it by this point, again, without a hitch. His dad, a diehard 1911 guy, was so impressed, he got himself an M&P 9 too. I have come to believe that some people just can't say anything good about any handgun without the Glock logo. My M&P's shoot every bit as well as any Glock I've ever owned or shot, and have been every bit as reliable/durable. Actually more so. I have personally had problems with FTF with 5 different Glock 23's, and had a Glock 19 throw it's plastic rear sight off every few rounds, but of course, it must have been me or the ammo, as we all know Glocks are perfect. I know of several large midwestern PD's who have changed to them and have nothing but good things to say. KY F&G went with the 40 M&P a few years back and they have been nothing but favorable in their comments. The only negative I ever heard from the F&G guys was they wished they had waited for the 45acp, as their previous handguns were in that caliber and these guys swore it dropped wounded game better than the 40(anecdotal only). My M&P 45 Mid-Size shoots right along with my custom 1911's, including the one with the Kart barrel. That means it's accuracy is downright scary. I cannot tell any difference at the 25 yard line between my most accurate 1911 and my stock M&P 45. My M&P9c shoots just as accurately as either of the Glock 26's we had, but has been more reliable. As with all things made by man, YMMV, but only one of the five has had any work done on it (Bowie Tactical), though the remaining four are going to Dave as soon as the Leupold Deltapoints show up, as my aging eyes need help these days.
My wife, who has owned Glocks, XD's, Walther P99, custom 1911's, etc., says she has finally found a pistol that is perfect for her. She's only 5'1", and the M&P is one of the only full size pistols out there that she can easily manipulate the slide. Hers has been nothing but reliable and accurate and at this time is our only Bowie conversion. Her M&P 9c is going out with my pistols to Bowie to have it done exactly like her service model. As I write this she commented that she soesn't understand all the griping.
I intend to buy two more as soon as funds allow. I no longer own any Glocks.
I think David Bowie needs to chime in here, as he and I have had a few discussions about this and he has some very serious facts he may want to present.
I have had zip problems with concealing the full size 9mm, and don't find it any harder than the 19. The Mid Size 45 is also easy to hide, but after over thirty years with a full size 1911, various Glocks, etc., I'm used to concealing full size pistols and don't understand all the hoopla. Concealment has nothing to do with comfort or fashion. If you can hide a Glock 17, 19 or 1911, the M&P is no problem either. If Smith came out with one to match the 19, someone would find something else to gripe about it.
Though a former LEO, I spent more years in manufacturing than LE, having retired as a QA Mgr. Having seen hundreds of thousands of jobs in our sector sent to Mexico and China, I'd think we'd all be tickled pink to have an American made pistol that was as good as the foreign competition, but then, maybe you're one of those on the public dole and don't care about saving jobs.:suicide2:
Take what you read about the M&P hate at face value. There is probably more going on behind the scenes than we really know about.
The guns are not perfect, not even close but they're PRETTY darned good for what they are.
Ive owned quite a few, currently down to three and i will never, ever sell what i have left.
5 inch pro 9mm
4.25 inch 9mm
9c
The 4.25 inch gun has well over 40k rounds at this point and it still has ALL of its original springs minus the trigger return spring and recoil spring. Neither of these parts broke i just figured i should probably do some PM on them.
The 5 inch pro is approaching 10k and this is my newest M&P. No issues to report on this one whatsoever.
The 9c has been utterly reliable although my only real gripe is that i cannot get a spare recoil rod assembly and spring due to the fact that S&W has been backordered for more than five damned months.
I have had zero parts breakage other than one striker on the 4.25 inch gun which was a black striker dry fired on a NIGHTLY basis at least 200 reps each night. I also did the majority of my dry fire sans snap caps. I replaced the striker with a silver striker and went on my merry way.
I have some rust on the 4.25 inch gun as this was one of the guns from an early batch that had a bad melonite coating applied. I never opted to send the gun in as it is merely surface rust and it does not impede the guns ability to fire, nor does it cause any real issues with carry.
The triggers were worked with in stock format until Apex released parts at which point i said screw it, im going all Apex. I have never looked back. Can i shoot a stock M&P with no trigger work? Absolutely, in fact i believe the triggers are on par or BETTER than any stock Glock. Yes, the reset sucks but it has never impeded my ability to shoot accurately or quickly with my M&P's.
I really dont understand where all of the griping is coming from. I just bought a Gen 4 G19 and i had a myriad of issues on its first outing. None of the M&P's i have ever owned have had as many malfunctions in one night. I also found the stock glock trigger to be akin to compressing a shock absorber on a farking car. It was terrible, positively terrible but still shootable like the M&P.
None of the known issues are MAJOR show stoppers other than a small number of out of spec chambers that required reaming after cases repeatedly became stuck and failed to extract.
The major issues are listed below:
1. Tight chambers leading to failures to extract. This requires a trip back to smith but reports of this are not really as widespread as one would be led to believe.
2. Right side slide catch breaking. Ive never seen one break in person but even if it does snap off, so long as the part does not make its way into the action, the gun will still function and the most important part of the slide catch is on the left hand side anyway. If it breaks, treat it like a Glock and deal with it.
3. Improper grade of steel or improper melonite coating leading to rust issues. EZox, oil, whatever moisture absorbing cloth you have on hand. Wipe down the slide and call it a day or send it back to smith to have the slide replaced.
4. Broken strikers. Non issue, the silver strikers are robust as hell. There is ZERO wear on any of my silver strikers, its almost eerie. The old black strikers would show peening after a few thousand rounds. The newer silver strikers dont even hold onto dirt let alone peen.
The bottom line to me is that both the Glock and the M&P are great guns, both have issues as they're made by man and quite frankly, neither is particularly better. Choose what you shoot better, buy a few spare parts and call it a day. Any way you slice the pie you're going to end up spending money on spare parts, replacement parts, sights, etc whether it be for the Glock brand or S&W.
militarymoron
04-05-11, 23:47
Though a former LEO, I spent more years in manufacturing than LE, having retired as a QA Mgr. Having seen hundreds of thousands of jobs in our sector sent to Mexico and China, I'd think we'd all be tickled pink to have an American made pistol that was as good as the foreign competition, but then, maybe you're one of those on the public dole and don't care about saving jobs.:suicide2:
what's this got to do with a technical discussion? just because not everyone has the same positive experience with their M&Ps as you have doesn't make them glock kool-aid drinkers, as you implied with this other statement "I have come to believe that some people just can't say anything good about any handgun without the Glock logo."
no one in this thread has implied that they dislike the M&P just because it's not a glock.
i'd be tickled pink if i could shoot my M&P as well as my glocks, brownings, sigs, 1911s etc. i'm honestly disappointed that i can't.
i think that the bottom line is that NO manufacturer puts out pistols that are all problem free, and that new releases (such as my early M&P or Gen 4 glocks) are subject to teething problems. let's leave any glock/smith/whatever love/hate out of the discussion and just share our personal experiences, positive and negative, and leave emotion out of it.
dookie1481
04-06-11, 00:11
Mine has been very reliable...5K plus with zero stoppages/malfs, and much of that with no cleaning and minimal lube. Not terribly accurate, though.
Overall, I am happy with it. However, I am switching to the P30, albeit for reasons unrelated to the M&P's performance.
Jay
dookie1481
04-06-11, 00:14
I have some rust on the 4.25 inch gun as this was one of the guns from an early batch that had a bad melonite coating applied. I never opted to send the gun in as it is merely surface rust and it does not impede the guns ability to fire, nor does it cause any real issues with carry.
I forgot to add that I had rust issues as well. Factory sights developed some rust, as did the front and rear left side serrations. I assume appendix carry exacerbated the problem, as my crotch gets sweaty in 110 degree heat :D
dookie1481
04-06-11, 00:15
It doesn't come in Glock 19 sized 9mm and .40S&W packages.
That's the biggest failing in the series as I see it from a non-LEO perspective.
If you chop the beavertail off they are essentially the same size. Something like 0.45" longer grip.
they had some teething problems.
i think it's a very cool platform at a fair price though.
I'd say glocks are a little nicer fit and finish internally, and generally more consistent in feel of controls.
also the M&P trigger blows. though i guess the APEX kit can give it something resembling a real reset.
if i didnt' like glocks for some reason i'd definitely check out the M&P.
dookie1481
04-06-11, 00:25
they had some teething problems.
i think it's a very cool platform at a fair price though.
I'd say glocks are a little nicer fit and finish internally, and generally more consistent in feel of controls.
also the M&P trigger blows. though i guess the APEX kit can give it something resembling a real reset.
if i didnt' like glocks for some reason i'd definitely check out the M&P.
Yeah, I'd like to add that literally the ONLY reason that I chose M&P is because I have absurdly small hands and I had problems with the Glock grip. If the Gen 4s were out (and worked) when I started really shooting pistols, then I would have gotten a Glock 10 times out of 10.
Yeah, I'd like to add that literally the ONLY reason that I chose M&P is because I have absurdly small hands and I had problems with the Glock grip. If the Gen 4s were out (and worked) when I started really shooting pistols, then I would have gotten a Glock 10 times out of 10.
it's awesome that there's now a pistol to recommend to the small handed that's along the same lines as a glock in terms of price, features and availability.
i actually recommended an M&P to my friend because he is left handed. he wasn't liking the right hand only slide stop on the glock.
what's this got to do with a technical discussion? just because not everyone has the same positive experience with their M&Ps as you have doesn't make them glock kool-aid drinkers, as you implied with this other statement "I have come to believe that some people just can't say anything good about any handgun without the Glock logo."
no one in this thread has implied that they dislike the M&P just because it's not a glock.
i'd be tickled pink if i could shoot my M&P as well as my glocks, brownings, sigs, 1911s etc. i'm honestly disappointed that i can't.
i think that the bottom line is that NO manufacturer puts out pistols that are all problem free, and that new releases (such as my early M&P or Gen 4 glocks) are subject to teething problems. let's leave any glock/smith/whatever love/hate out of the discussion and just share our personal experiences, positive and negative, and leave emotion out of it.
I did leave emotion out of it. I was speaking rather matter of fact. If you take it any other way, that's your problem. Maybe you had a bad experience with an M&P, but have you tried them again? I've had bad experiences with nearly every major handgun made, but have also had good experiences with them too -- just as you say in your last paragraph.
Don't be so thin skinned. If I hit a nerve, it wasn't intended. By the way, what was so "technical" about any post here? Coming from primarily a background of mathematics, statistics and science, I sure didn't notice anything particularly technical in any of our comments. We all just stated our experiences and truthfully, none of us has a sample size large enough to really say much of anything. You of all people should know this.
If you chop the beavertail off they are essentially the same size. Something like 0.45" longer grip.
a half inch in grip length is fairly significant.... i tend to carry at 2:30, so if if the grip is too long it definitely prints. i really can't go any bigger than a glock 19 with this method unless i wear giant shirts.
dookie1481
04-06-11, 01:18
a half inch in grip length is fairly significant.... i tend to carry at 2:30, so if if the grip is too long it definitely prints. i really can't go any bigger than a glock 19 with this method unless i wear giant shirts.
It CAN be significant...not necessarily so for everyone. Some people can strap on a pistol with a half inch longer grip and you wouldn't notice anything.
dookie1481
04-06-11, 01:20
a half inch in grip length is fairly significant.... i tend to carry at 2:30, so if if the grip is too long it definitely prints. i really can't go any bigger than a glock 19 with this method unless i wear giant shirts.
Just out of curiosity, have you tried moving it closer to your centerline? I found that when I moved the pistol closer to my belt, concealment improved tremendously.
Littlelebowski
04-06-11, 07:52
No one gives a shit about your background. Focus on the topic at hand, take your whining about American manufacturing to General Discussion or elsewhere, and listen to the moderator's guidance if you want to stick around here.
I did leave emotion out of it. I was speaking rather matter of fact. If you take it any other way, that's your problem. Maybe you had a bad experience with an M&P, but have you tried them again? I've had bad experiences with nearly every major handgun made, but have also had good experiences with them too -- just as you say in your last paragraph.
Don't be so thin skinned. If I hit a nerve, it wasn't intended. By the way, what was so "technical" about any post here? Coming from primarily a background of mathematics, statistics and science, I sure didn't notice anything particularly technical in any of our comments. We all just stated our experiences and truthfully, none of us has a sample size large enough to really say much of anything. You of all people should know this.
Gutshot John
04-06-11, 08:08
I'm at a loss for why some things have to be all or nothing. It's either the greatest thing since sliced bread, or a complete POS.
Both the Glock and M&P are fine handguns, any difference between the two is a subjective judgment.
I own both, I shoot both. The Glock is (very) slightly less finicky and has a more consistent stock trigger. The M&P points and shoots a lot better and the trigger has never bothered me. The whole tactile reset thing is a non-issue to me as in my experience riding the trigger is a recipe for short-stroking it which I've done on the range. I do it occasionally on my carbine when I'm shooting for groups, but I would never do it real world.
Though some people have had issues with them I've never had problems with the three that I've owned, including a .45. Some of my M&Ps have excellent stock triggers, others are so-so even with Apex parts. Likewise my wife can't shoot a Glock to save her life (she can't reach the trigger) but shoots the M&P just fine.
I prefer the thinner grip profile of the M&P and it seems to print less than the Glock. Since I'm quantifiably more accurate with the M&P and my wife and I can share mags, that's my preferred carry weapon.
I'd be comfortable carrying either. Both are excellent weapons.
I run M&P45s pretty much exclusively. I have one FS in particular that I run very hard and dont give much love. I dont count rounds but I would guesstimate that it easily has a few thousand through it. It has never failed me once. Not one failure of any kind. I rarely clean it, put it away wet, etc. It has been through rain, snow, ice (literally had forming on the slide), mud, you name it. It ran like a champ and could still bang out some damn good groups. Obviously, this is a sample size of 1 (my other M&P45s have been 100% as well but not ran as hard), but I have personally been pretty impressed.
The M&P's only real shortcoming is its trigger (which is an issue that is always blown out of proportion) IMO, which can be easily fixed by a competent smith (e.g. David Bowie), or at the very least, can be remedied by a few APEX parts. I have had BTC (Bowie) trigger jobs on all of mine and could not be happier.
militarymoron
04-06-11, 08:36
I did leave emotion out of it. I was speaking rather matter of fact. If you take it any other way, that's your problem. Maybe you had a bad experience with an M&P, but have you tried them again? I've had bad experiences with nearly every major handgun made, but have also had good experiences with them too -- just as you say in your last paragraph.
Don't be so thin skinned. If I hit a nerve, it wasn't intended. By the way, what was so "technical" about any post here? Coming from primarily a background of mathematics, statistics and science, I sure didn't notice anything particularly technical in any of our comments. We all just stated our experiences and truthfully, none of us has a sample size large enough to really say much of anything. You of all people should know this.
the last paragraph in your post has nothing to do with the attributes of the M&P - the way i read it, it was a statement designed to elicit an emotional response by implying that not buying an M&P could cause the loss of American jobs, and that if you didn't, it meant that you didn't care and might be one of those who live off the backs of others. if you can explain exactly what you intended to say with that paragraph, i'm all ears.
i'm using 'technical' in the general sense as it applies to this forum.
nope, i haven't tried another M&P given the issues i had with my first purchase. that experience didn't give me much incentive to spend more money on another one. another issue i had with it was its tendency to drop the slide on occasion when inserting a mag assertively, something that doesn't happen with any other handgun i own, including glocks. if everything on my M&P worked as well as my glock, i'd have stuck with the M&P, as i like its overall feel and pointability better.
no nerve hit at all.
a sample size of one is valid, and shouldn't be any cause not to 'really say much of anything'. if 20 people on here share their sample sizes of one, we've got 20 samples.
the OP asked the question 'what exactly is wrong with the M&P's'. what in your first post answered his question?
kid presentable
04-06-11, 08:47
Sucky triggers...
there is a lot of hatred for the m&p in Massachusetts because of the ridiculous trigger pull (10lbs, some have measured it at 12lbs) that is required because of the gun laws here. but it's mostly from people that are too lazy to install an apex kit or have a gunsmith lighten and smooth out the trigger pull. I own an m&p9c and had a gunsmith take the trigger pull down to about 4.5lbs and it has been a great gun since, no complaints from this masshole.
John_Wayne777
04-06-11, 08:59
I am starting read things about how certain people are not digging on the M&P's anymore due to various reasons. I am wondering what those reasons are and how should they be remedied?
I own two M&P's(9FS and 9C, both LEO guns) that have had many thousands of rounds through them with no malfunctions that werent due to my, at times, marginal reloads. I know my sample size is small, but its all I have and not to many people around here shoot M&P's.
S&W, unfortunately, isn't terribly consistent in the product they're putting out.
The M&P has had it's share of issues. The guns currently shipping have improved strikers to withstand dryfire, a revised sear to improve the trigger pull (a common complaint) the Mass. compliant sear block to try and eliminate intermittent reset problems that various specimens experienced, etc.
On top of those systemic issues there have been other more random QC problems like rust. S&W has their melonite (really just a trade name for nitrocarburizing) process done by a 3rd party last I knew. If the components are not prepared properly for the treatment then they are not as corrosion resistant as they should be. Farming that process out gives S&W less control over the final product, but saves money on per-unit costs as they don't have to set up their own facility to handle the finishing. Along the lines of random QC problems, a large PD who tested the M&P as a potential replacement for Glock 9mm pistols experienced issues like trigger pins walking out of the triggers on some of the weapons.
These things don't inspire confidence.
...but the ugly truth of the matter is that it's par for the course with the world of handguns right now. It's impossible to identify any company currently in the business who doesn't screw things up either in production or in support. Sig's issues are legendary at this point. Glock, despite the "perfection" marketing line has had continual issues with 3rd generation .40 caliber guns and now has massive issues with the entire spectrum of 4th generation guns. S&W has certainly had issues with the M&P. Beretta has had their share of issues over the years, including putting out guns that just never worked terribly well at all. (Ask GlockMaster about the Beretta Cougar sometime)
I could go on and on. Some companies do manage to do a better job than others in regards to shipping a weapon that functions properly from the box, but even they aren't immune. H&K, for instance, has some of the most stringent quality control still left in the industry...but as a brief search of this forum will demonstrate, even H&K isn't above shipping out guns that don't work right from the box.
The reasons behind individuals switching from the M&P to something else are probably legion. I, for example, switched away from the M&P as my primary carry gun because I've transitioned to carrying AIWB and I really don't want to blow a hole in my femoral artery or blow off my wedding tackle. I still have all my M&P's and the associated carry gear and I still use and carry my M&P's on some occasions...so it's not like I've completely abandoned the M&P. That would be foolhardy as my guns are still good, reliable, accurate weapons. I've had problems with just about all of them at one point or another, but trips back to Smith have solved the problems and they all run well enough that I would carry any of them tonight with zero trepidation. I switched because I want to have a larger margin of error when I'm reholstering a pistol that's aimed at my anatomy. I would have bought a P30 eventually anyway, but the switch to AIWB carry (which is comfortable and allows me to carry without worries about printing) led to training with AIWB carry, which led to a realization of just how easy it would be for me to shoot myself reholstering with a striker-fired pistol that didn't have a manual safety. So I switched.
There are a lot of people who swap guns because swapping guns is just what they do. They run this for a while and then decide to run something else, and then later on they run something else...etc. Some people encounter a particularly bad example of a weapon and that motivates them to swear off anything to do with that line and go to something else. Some people switch because they think it will improve their performance. Etc.
If your guns are running and you haven't identified a rational reason to switch (like not wanting to blow your genitals off...) then you don't really have anything to worry about. Maintain your pistols properly and you'll be fine. If you are looking to buy an M&P and you wonder if it's a safe bet, the odds are that it will be. S&W has overall been good at customer support with the M&P and usually manages to make things right for the customer if they don't get it right in the first place. I can't say the same about some other companies.
I am starting read things about how certain people are not digging on the M&P's anymore due to various reasons. I am wondering what those reasons are and how should they be remedied?
I own two M&P's(9FS and 9C, both LEO guns) that have had many thousands of rounds through them with no malfunctions that werent due to my, at times, marginal reloads. I know my sample size is small, but its all I have and not to many people around here shoot M&P's.
No platform works 100% of the time for 100% of the people, and no platform is loved by 100% of the people. The 'net also tends to amplify unhappiness...The M&P has gotten high marks by the vast majority of people, adopted quickly by various groups, and gets high marks from the highly knowledgeable and or BTDT that types (Yam, Doc Roberts, etc, etc), which for me = get me one.
The M&P, with a few mods, has been the only polymer pistol that replaced my beloved 1911s to date.
There have been batches, especially early batches, that had some issues need of correcting, and correct it/replace it they did.
We can think of another polymer pistol company that blamed all problems on "user error" and took years to respond to what were clear design flaws in a few models specifically, and lost various large PD accounts (which usually got replaced by the M&P...) due to their lack of response to those issue, but that's another topic. :cool:
there is a lot of hatred for the m&p in Massachusetts
And rightly so. :D
John_Wayne777
04-06-11, 09:10
Don't be so thin skinned.
He wasn't being thin-skinned...he was making a valid point that your pointless "public dole" comment was inappropriate for this discussion. Discussing one's experience with the handgun market is just fine, but you should be able to do so without making irrelevant, insulting comments.
I have an exceptionally low tolerance for jaw-jacking at a moderator who gave you a perfectly reasonable correction. I don't put up with people giving our volunteer moderators or members of staff guff for doing their jobs.
I guess I shouldn't post and then immediately go to bed. What I was talking about are the comments from LAV, who if I remember correctly used to whole heartedly ENDORSE the M&P pistols. Also the comments from Grant, referring to those comments from LAV, basically agreeing with him. The comments were pretty vague at best.
I am not interested in personal opinion about why somebody switched or what ever back to Glock or whatever other pistol, that, to me, is a personal choice, unless you had major documented issues with your guns.
I am more interested in the technical reasons why M&P's are not doing so hot, especially in reference to two well known and respected industry people making comments about them.
John_Wayne777
04-06-11, 09:27
Also the comments from Grant, referring to those comments from LAV, basically agreeing with him. The comments were pretty vague at best.
LAV and Ken Hackathorn have both said in my hearing that the M&P was a weapon with great potential...as long as S&W didn't screw it up. That's not really an endorsement, more a read on what the weapon could be. As I said earlier, they've not been as consistent with the end product as anyone would like.
Both men will probably also tell you that S&W isn't alone in that, and that the entire world of handguns right now is in a pretty unhappy place in regards to the quality of what they're shipping out the door.
I guess I shouldn't post and then immediately go to bed. What I was talking about are the comments from LAV, who if I remember correctly used to whole heartedly ENDORSE the M&P pistols. Also the comments from Grant, referring to those comments from LAV, basically agreeing with him. The comments were pretty vague at best.
I am not interested in personal opinion about why somebody switched or what ever back to Glock or whatever other pistol, that, to me, is a personal choice, unless you had major documented issues with your guns.
I am more interested in the technical reasons why M&P's are not doing so hot, especially in reference to two well known and respected industry people making comments about them.
I was wondering if someone would pick up on the comments in the other thread and ask questions.
Many of the TOP instructors in the industry had VERY high hopes for the M&P. Hopes so high that they thought it could catch and beat Glock. The fear though is that S&W would get in its own way. This proved to be true over. For those that know me personally, they can vouch for the fact that I have worked very hard to get problems resolved. So much so that I was in danger of losing my LE account with them.
With that said, S&W has turned the ship around and is now onboard with making it better. Truth be told though, S&W is selling every M&P they make and are actually way behind on filling orders. They are also gaining more and more LE sales. We are also seeing them win international contracts too. Trust me when I say that it is hard to convince a company that they are doing something wrong when they sell everything they make.
I run an M&P as my primary training gun. Very reliable and consistent. I would recommend them to anyone looking for a defensive handgun. So if you own an M&P and you are happy with it, drive on.
C4
LAV and Ken Hackathorn have both said in my hearing that the M&P was a weapon with great potential...as long as S&W didn't screw it up. That's not really an endorsement, more a read on what the weapon could be. As I said earlier, they've not been as consistent with the end product as anyone would like.
Both men will probably also tell you that S&W isn't alone in that, and that the entire world of handguns right now is in a pretty unhappy place in regards to the quality of what they're shipping out the door.
Right on the money. Not to get into a pissing match about one gun company VS another, but they ALL do stupid shit. Glock, HK, SIG, etc have been known to screw the pooch and take a quality gun and make it questionable.
People need to remember that gun manufacturers are a business and they are run accordingly. This means that if they can save ONE PENNY by changing the quality of a spring, THEY WILL DO IT.
C4
I was wondering if someone would pick up on the comments in the other thread and ask questions.
Many of the TOP instructors in the industry had VERY high hopes for the M&P. Hopes so high that they thought it could catch and beat Glock. The fear though is that S&W would get in its own way. This proved to be true over. For those that know me personally, they can vouch for the fact that I have worked very hard to get problems resolved. So much so that I was in danger of losing my LE account with them.
With that said, S&W has turned the ship around and is now onboard with making it better. Truth be told though, S&W is selling every M&P they make and are actually way behind on filling orders. They are also gaining more and more LE sales. We are also seeing them win international contracts too. Trust me when I say that it is hard to convince a company that they are doing something wrong when they sell everything they make.
I run an M&P as my primary training gun. Very reliable and consistent. I would recommend them to anyone looking for a defensive handgun. So if you own an M&P and you are happy with it, drive on.
C4
What exactly was wrong that needed, and is apparently getting, those changes? I know the stuff about the tight chambers, extractors and melonite issue's from the past(seem to have already been remedied). The strikers and sear springs seem to be the latest change for the better. I guess there are some other things coming down the pipe.
My main goal in this, I guess, is to make my guns run better. They are both LEO guns and have the updated striker in them(from what I can gather its the silver striker). I run full APEX DCAEK's plus RAM's in them. I have never had finish issues, extraction issues, or tight chamber issues on either gun. Both of my guns had the front sight dot fly off in the first 10 rounds, which wasnt a big deal to me anyway since I was planning to and am now running Warren's on both guns anyway. I am contemplating having APEX drill my sear blocks for the larger springs, but seeing as I have had zero issues with the small springs in them, I am almost hesitant to change them.
What exactly was wrong that needed, and is apparently getting, those changes? I know the stuff about the tight chambers, extractors and melonite issue's from the past(seem to have already been remedied). The strikers and sear springs seem to be the latest change for the better. I guess there are some other things coming down the pipe.
Wrong is a very strong word. It means that EVERY M&P is going to fail. This just isn't true.
My main goal in this, I guess, is to make my guns run better. They are both LEO guns and have the updated striker in them(from what I can gather its the silver striker). I run full APEX DCAEK's plus RAM's in them. I have never had finish issues, extraction issues, or tight chamber issues on either gun. Both of my guns had the front sight dot fly off in the first 10 rounds, which wasnt a big deal to me anyway since I was planning to and am now running Warren's on both guns anyway. I am contemplating having APEX drill my sear blocks for the larger springs, but seeing as I have had zero issues with the small springs in them, I am almost hesitant to change them.
If your gun is running then, it most likely has no issues. Remember that NOT ALL M&P's have a problem. In fact, I would say that very few ever run into a problem.
C4
Hi all,
I wanted to chime in because the op caught my attention.
Like any modern polymer pistol manufactured today, the m&p is evolving. As has been mentioned before, other guns have had growing pains. The fact of the matter is that as Grant has mentioned, Smith is improving the gun. It just takes time. In a large corporation, the change process can be painfully slow. But the fact remains, during the past 2 years, I have seen a new more robust striker assembly, better sights, improved corrosion resistant coatings on mags, implementation of the larger sear spring, better sear manufacturing, better barrel geometry. All these have been phased in by the factory. Even the trigger safety pin has been altered to reduce the chance of walkout.
Joe Bergeron even told me that they have a new broaching machine, so the will be able to change the barrel twist rate. From everything I have seen and been told, Smith is committed to improving the gun.
I see a lot of potential in the gun, and the number of le departments contacting us indicates its popularity is not waning. My committment is to explore the pistol's potential. With all the projects we have going right now, you should see an M&P that is as reliable as any other top end service pistol with a greatly improved trigger and capable of delivering outstanding accuracy consistently from gun to gun.
-Randy
I carried and shot a M&P 9 almost exclusively for about 3 1/2 years. I like the platform and think it has potential. I like the ergos, and did not experience any of the small parts breakage that others have seen. However, after dealing with lackluster accuracy for most of that time, it got downright lousy after about 15,000 rounds.
Towards the end I was getting an average of 6" groups at 25 yards (standing, ten shot groups with good ammo). To ME this is unacceptable. I'm not going to win the next Bianci Cup but I have shot enough sub 3" groups at that distance to know I can do it. After much trial and tribulation I switched back to another platform.
The accuracy issue is not across an across the board problem. The 45s seem to be pretty good. The 9s and 40s are hit and miss (pun intended). While there are fixes for the trigger issues and most of the small parts issues have been dealt with, there is currently no fix for the lackluster accuracy. I am not the only one who has noticed this problem. If you do a search you will find other threads where people have voiced the same concern.
Having said all that if your M&P works for you, drive on. Some of them seem to run just fine and display acceptable accuracy, but until they can show me viable accuracy and consistency I'll use another platform.
Joe Bergeron even told me that they have a new broaching machine, so the will be able to change the barrel twist rate. From everything I have seen and been told, Smith is committed to improving the gun.
That is interesting because I know you had said in the thread on the Bomar barrels that the major thing you thought was causing poor accuracy with the stock barrel was that the twist rate was not ideal for the 9, .40 and .357sig, but that the .45 had a different twist rate which made it inherently more accurate.
Magic_Salad0892
04-06-11, 11:28
I really hope the M&P keeps on the way it does, and I want it to improve.
I will never use it, due to me being in love with my Glocks.
But I like how they handle/shoot, and I like seeing an American made pistol that does that well.
However. I also want Glock to start producing American made pistols, and sell them here.
I have a full size MP9 with the Apex DCAEK installed. I've put about 1,000 rds through it so far.
I haven't had any problems with rust, extraction, etc.... that others have stated here. The only problem I had was the slide releasing when I inserted a mag. It's done it twice. Both times I tried to replicate this with an empty mag and could not get it to do it again. Go figure. :confused:
Accuracy is not outstanding, but acceptable to me.
I wish someone would come out with a extended slide release. I always have to slightly alter my grip on the gun to release the slide.
Randy Lee you listening?
Scoby
I have a full size MP9 with the Apex DCAEK installed. I've put about 1,000 rds through it so far.
I haven't had any problems with rust, extraction, etc.... that others have stated here. The only problem I had was the slide releasing when I inserted a mag. It's done it twice. Both times I tried to replicate this an empty mag and could not get it to do it again. Go figure. :confused:
Accuracy is not outstanding, but acceptable to me.
I wish someone would come out with a extended slide release. I always have to alter my grip on the gun to release the slide.
Randy Lee you listening?
The auto forwarding is common in most polymer pistols. It happens because of how your hand is hitting the back of the grip.
The M&P slide release is the best in the biz. So you don't need an extended one, you just need to use that one correctly (and no, using your strong hand thumb to hit it is not the correct way).
C4
Grant
Never thought about doing it any other way than my strong hand thumb or noticed that anyone else did it another way.
I'm assuming that you use weak hand thumb?
Scoby
Grant
Never thought about doing it any other way than my strong hand thumb or noticed that anyone else did it another way.
I'm assuming that you use weak hand thumb?
Scoby
Correct. Same way you do on a Glock or 1911.
Yes, I know that many use their strong hand thumb. I also know that many people have problems with the slide not locking back on the last round. ;)
C4
Magic_Salad0892
04-06-11, 12:03
On my Glock I use strong hand thumb, and have no problems with slide lock.
Do you think that problems would be more likely to occur with the Vickers' Slide Catch?
The mags that came with mine were garbage. I bought 4 more and no problems. The followers that came with the original mags were tilting so bad, I could BARELY get the 4th 5th and 6th round in, after that it was normal. Malfunctioning magazines are of NO use to me. Thats the only problem I have had with mine
I also know that many people have problems with the slide not locking back on the last round. ;)
C4
That is a problem I have not encountered....yet.
Scoby
Pistol Shooter
04-06-11, 12:16
i cannot shoot it as accurately as my other 9's, and i don't think it's me. i just could not achieve my normal level of accuracy with it, and when i switched to other pistols, everything was back to 'normal'. i tested it side by side at an indoor range with my G19 with two different types of ammo, and i could not hold what i feel to be my normal group size that i can hold with most of my other handguns. group size was at least double that of any other handgun.
accuracy is a touchy subject, and most of the time, i'd look at myself first as the cause of any accuracy issues. but this time, it doesn't seem the case. i've gone back to my glocks.
This very closely mirrors my experience with my M&P 9 :eek:
Try as I might, I just can't get the same accuracy from it that I do with my other handguns (Beretta 92FS's, BHP's, HK P30, 1911's and even a Walther PPS).
I tried different ammo and put 1,500 rds through it so far, had several friends shoot it and we all had the same result -- unacceptable groups.
It's very reliable and I like the ergonomics but I'm not going to keep it.
Don Robison
04-06-11, 12:18
I seen a half dozen full size 9mm M&P in classes over the last year sporadically decide to eject their magazine. The mag catch springs appeared very light; to S&Ws credit they were quick about fixing the issue for everyone that I know that contacted them. That issue is what has kept me from buying one along with their other early teething pains. Maybe I'll get one in the future.
I bought my MP9 Pro Series about a month ago, I have 500rds through it so far of Winchester Ranger, with no malfs of any sort. I know it's not that much, but as to the trigger, I personally have not had a single issue with it, it has been smooth, and honestly I feel my friends Glock 19 has a heavier pull, he commented on that as well. Just my 2 cents, I love the pistol so far. I would own more Glocks, but they don't sit in my square paws well, where as the M&P just fits my hands the same way 1911s do. I really like Glocks but it is good to see some kind of competition for them. I feel it will only be better for us consumers as they battle to make a better performing firearm.
On my Glock I use strong hand thumb, and have no problems with slide lock.
Do you think that problems would be more likely to occur with the Vickers' Slide Catch?
Most likely (unless the shooter takes a pistol class with Mr. Vickers and he corrects their shooting technique).
You can use your strong hand thumb as long as that thumb is pushed to the outside of your weak hand. If not, it will try and rest on top of the slide release.
C4
I seen a half dozen full size 9mm M&P in classes over the last year sporadically decide to eject their magazine. The mag catch springs appeared very light; to S&Ws credit they were quick about fixing the issue for everyone that I know that contacted them. That issue is what has kept me from buying one along with their other early teething pains. Maybe I'll get one in the future.
That problem happened several years ago. We no longer see that issue.
C4
Magic_Salad0892
04-06-11, 12:27
You can use your strong hand thumb as long as that thumb is pushed to the outside of your weak hand. If not, it will try and rest on top of the slide release.
This is how I shoot anyway. Thank you for the feedback, Grant.
This is how I shoot anyway. Thank you for the feedback, Grant.
You are welcome.
C4
The auto forwarding is common in most polymer pistols. It happens because of how your hand is hitting the back of the grip.
The M&P slide release is the best in the biz. So you don't need an extended one, you just need to use that one correctly (and no, using your strong hand thumb to hit it is not the correct way).
C4
Mine does auto forward depending on how I seat a new mag. Working on my reload mechanics to iron out so it consistently does it or consistently doesn't.
I've never had the slide fail to lock back because of riding the slide release with my thumb--which does happen all the time on my Sig. However, I can't use either thumb--strong, weak, or sometimes both--to release the slide. I may be a total weakling but I don't think an 800 lb gorilla could consistently release it on my gun its so tight. So until it maybe loosens up some I'll just have to slingshot the slide after a reload.
I've never had the slide fail to lock back because of riding the slide release with my thumb--which does happen all the time on my Sig. However, I can't use either thumb--strong, weak, or sometimes both--to release the slide. I may be a total weakling but I don't think an 800 lb gorilla could consistently release it on my gun its so tight. So until it maybe loosens up some I'll just have to slingshot the slide after a reload.
It may ONLY show itself under stress. Timed shooting drills tend to make it show itself as does operating in a shoot house.
C4
Don Robison
04-06-11, 13:24
Not sure who we is; but I've seen it on at least 6 guns in the last year. The most current one was January 2011. I'll concede they could have been low use older pistols, but I know for a fact there are still guns out there with the issue.
That problem happened several years ago. We no longer see that issue.
C4
The M&P has proven to offer ergonomics, reliability, accuracy, and serviceability on par or better than the 1911's I've been issued and carried since I was commissioned in 1986; as such, in January of 2011, I retired my 1911's and switched to M&P45's w/ambi-safeties and Apex Duty Kits. In the year working up to the switch, I fired thousands of rounds through M&P45's with NO malfunctions. I was also involved with a high round count agency test of M&P40's where the guns performed flawlessly with NO major malfunctions.
While I have anecdotally heard of M&P dead triggers, broken strikers, and poor accuracy, so far I have never any of these issues despite being around a lot of M&P40 & 45's. The major M&P issues we have seen are crunchy inconsistent triggers--especially in the early guns (the Apex Duty Kits are a simple fix), occasional rust on the early guns and mags, and accuracy issues with the M&P9 probably due to barrel twist and early unlocking issues--oh, and the tritium vials were falling out of some sights there for a while.
The ability to easily modify the M&P to meet the shooter's needs is a very big plus. I strongly prefer the M&P with a thumb safety--I view it as one of the advantages of the M&P over the Glock. If you are going to carry the pistol for uniformed duty, if you are going to ever carry AIWB, or if you come from a 1911/Hi-Power background, then the M&P w/ambi safety has advantages. If you get it with the safety, it is very easy to remove; conversely, if you get one without a safety, it is nearly impossible to add one later.
Until recently, I fully trusted 9 mm Glocks to reliably run right out of the box...sadly due to Glock's inexplicably stupid design changes, that time has passed. We have had better luck with recent M&P's than with Glock or Sig...
Not sure who we is; but I've seen it on at least 6 guns in the last year. The most current one was January 2011. I'll concede they could have been low use older pistols, but I know for a fact there are still guns out there with the issue.
We meaning my company, instructors, etc.
Yes, you can still see the problem (on older guns). We have not seen a new product gun do this in well over 1-2 years.
C4
30 cal slut
04-06-11, 14:53
my only problems with the full size 9's and 9c have been with the finish on the slide.
the melonite job wasn't done properly, and therefore I had some rusting issues.
I'm running all of mine with Apex sears and RAMS. No other issues through thousands of rounds.
This very closely mirrors my experience with my M&P 9 :eek:
Try as I might, I just can't get the same accuracy from it that I do with my other handguns (Beretta 92FS's, BHP's, HK P30, 1911's and even a Walther PPS).
I'm newer to the DA/Striker fired (from 1911s) and I actually did better accuracy wise. Now I'm not saying the M&P is a wonder pistol, just that it really agrees with me.
Of course it could be the reduction from 40 and 45 to 9mm, but after I shot my CCW test, I saw the guy next to me tearing it up--he was a fan of the M&P9. After test firing a G19 which was about the same as my Beretta 96, the M&P 9 was significantly better.
I am not a super-accurate shooter and with a lot of room for improvement, but something on that pistol agrees with me. That's why i am concerned about recent comments regarding the M&P. Its sounds a bit overblown--Its always good to be aware of issues, but I was struck by the LAV comments from the AAR when only 4 months ago in a vid for the HK45, it was stated to be very close to the HK in quality. That's big switch and definitely had my attention.
I may go back to considering the M&P in .45. Never a dull moment in the handgun community...
I keep hearing about these accuracy issues and im always wondering exactly what the issue is.
The only person so far that has talked about an accuracy issue that i actually believe is Randy Lee and here is why.
Offhand, VERY few shooters are capable of putting down consistent sub 5 inch groups at 25 yards. I would hate to say this but i do not believe the majority of people on these forums are capable of this.
Everyone that bitches about accuracy simply says the pistol has issues without actually showing us targets, their loads or comparative analysis between other brands of pistols. Will an M&P be as accurate as a tuned 1911? HELL NO. Can it be? Sure, once the early unlocking issue and superior barrels hit the market but for a DUTY grade handgun i seriously fail to see how there are ANY accuracy issues present in the system.
If anything, due to the steel chassis inside of this polymer gun, we are going to see some pretty amazing accuracy standards once Mr Lee is done with all of his projects.
Last but not least, wasnt this handgun optimized for 124 grain +P rounds? I bet most of the people griping about accuracy are not using the rounds this gun's twist rate was designed for.
For me, the gun is more accurate than i am and im exceedingly pleased with it.
I carried and shot a M&P 9 almost exclusively for about 3 1/2 years. I like the platform and think it has potential. I like the ergos, and did not experience any of the small parts breakage that others have seen. However, after dealing with lackluster accuracy for most of that time, it got downright lousy after about 15,000 rounds.
Towards the end I was getting an average of 6" groups at 25 yards (standing, ten shot groups with good ammo). To ME this is unacceptable. I'm not going to win the next Bianci Cup but I have shot enough sub 3" groups at that distance to know I can do it. After much trial and tribulation I switched back to another platform.
The accuracy issue is not across an across the board problem. The 45s seem to be pretty good. The 9s and 40s are hit and miss (pun intended). While there are fixes for the trigger issues and most of the small parts issues have been dealt with, there is currently no fix for the lackluster accuracy. I am not the only one who has noticed this problem. If you do a search you will find other threads where people have voiced the same concern.
Having said all that if your M&P works for you, drive on. Some of them seem to run just fine and display acceptable accuracy, but until they can show me viable accuracy and consistency I'll use another platform.
I keep hearing about these accuracy issues and im always wondering exactly what the issue is.
The only person so far that has talked about an accuracy issue that i actually believe is Randy Lee and here is why.
Offhand, VERY few shooters are capable of putting down consistent sub 5 inch groups at 25 yards. I would hate to say this but i do not believe the majority of people on these forums are capable of this.
Everyone that bitches about accuracy simply says the pistol has issues without actually showing us targets, their loads or comparative analysis between other brands of pistols. Will an M&P be as accurate as a tuned 1911? HELL NO. Can it be? Sure, once the early unlocking issue and superior barrels hit the market but for a DUTY grade handgun i seriously fail to see how there are ANY accuracy issues present in the system.
If anything, due to the steel chassis inside of this polymer gun, we are going to see some pretty amazing accuracy standards once Mr Lee is done with all of his projects.
Last but not least, wasnt this handgun optimized for 124 grain +P rounds? I bet most of the people griping about accuracy are not using the rounds this gun's twist rate was designed for.
For me, the gun is more accurate than i am and im exceedingly pleased with it.
I believe what Joe's posting, I've also experienced it.
No one is saying that the M&P is crap, or that YOUR M&P is crap, but there have been some significant issues and hopefully S&W will pull it's head out of it's ass and get them corrected in the 9mm model.
For me, the gun is more accurate than i am and im exceedingly pleased with it.
If this were facebook, I would click "like".
Templar,
Roger that, im tracking with you. Trust me, im not thinking anyone is assaulting my guns or the platform in general, i just would love to hear some expansion on the issues with some realistic data instead of "its not as accurate as X because i said so".
The bottom line is that these pistols COULD be more accurate but are they really THAT inferior accuracy wise compared to their major competitors?
I can make hits all day long at 50 yards on a 12 inch steel plate. To me, thats plenty accurate. At 15-20 yards i can cornhole the shit out of anything im aiming at. Calling shots with my M&P's is quite easy for me. Im also still a beginner in my eyes as i do not have the same level of experience or training of most people on these boards.
This brings up a legit question.
WHAT is an acceptable accuracy standard for a duty grade gun and as a platform, are the M&P's able to meet this standard?
militarymoron
04-06-11, 16:31
I keep hearing about these accuracy issues and im always wondering exactly what the issue is.
The only person so far that has talked about an accuracy issue that i actually believe is Randy Lee and here is why.
Offhand, VERY few shooters are capable of putting down consistent sub 5 inch groups at 25 yards. I would hate to say this but i do not believe the majority of people on these forums are capable of this.
it's the RELATIVE accuracy, not absolute. you're right - i can't put down a consistent 5 inch group at 25 yards, but i can manage a 6" group at 15 and a 1-2" group at 7 with all my 9's except my M&P, shooting the same ammo (115gr and 124gr). i'm not claiming to be a good shooter at all, but i'm consistent enough to notice the difference between my average groups, and worse than average groups.
G34Shooter
04-06-11, 16:36
Templar,
Roger that, im tracking with you. Trust me, im not thinking anyone is assaulting my guns or the platform in general, i just would love to hear some expansion on the issues with some realistic data instead of "its not as accurate as X because i said so".
The bottom line is that these pistols COULD be more accurate but are they really THAT inferior accuracy wise compared to their major competitors?
I can make hits all day long at 50 yards on a 12 inch steel plate. To me, thats plenty accurate. At 15-20 yards i can cornhole the shit out of anything im aiming at. Calling shots with my M&P's is quite easy for me. Im also still a beginner in my eyes as i do not have the same level of experience or training of most people on these boards.
This brings up a legit question.
WHAT is an acceptable accuracy standard for a duty grade gun and as a platform, are the M&P's able to meet this standard?
Randy Lee brought up the issue of the factory M&P barrel unlocking faster than it should be and is working with Bar-Sto into correcting that. Another possible issue is that the slow twist rate for a 9mm can make it picky with ammunition accuracy wise in my experience at 25 yards or more and prefers NATO or +P velocities.
TriumphRat675
04-06-11, 16:37
IIRC, at a recent class Ken Hackathorn said that production changes were made to M&P 9 and 40 barrel manufacturing to squeeze some pennies out of the process. As a result accuracy on some production guns went to hell - 8 - 10 inch groups at combat distances were not unheard of. Ken also called the M&P a "product improved Glock," which I had heard before, and said that it was a good gun as long as S&W didn't screw it up. He also said that nobody can screw up a gun like S&W.
I used my personal M&P9 at that class. It could and did shoot very, very accurately when I wasn't snatching the trigger like a sonofabitch. So it is a problem inherent to particular guns and not necessarily all of them.
Based on what I heard from Ken (and others), a duty gun should be capable of approximately 4" groups - or headshots - at 25 yards. Because your group sizes will inevitably open up under stress, your weapon should be capable of good accuracy when you are not stressed to avoid throwing another, unpredictable variable into the equation.
On other notes, my M&P also had two FTE's using 127 grain Winchester though. First time in 3000 rounds that happened, but also the first time I used Winchester ammo in the gun. I will run some WWB through it and see if it is reproducible. In any event I will probably upgrade to S&W's newer 9mm specific extractor or just spring for the APEX extractor.
I think it's positive that S&W is moving forward with changes that appear to be for the better. I like the platform with the exception of it having no discernible reset. I will be installing APEX parts in an effort to fix that problem. We'll see how it goes.
Pistol Shooter
04-06-11, 16:47
I'm newer to the DA/Striker fired (from 1911s) and I actually did better accuracy wise. Now I'm not saying the M&P is a wonder pistol, just that it really agrees with me.
Of course it could be the reduction from 40 and 45 to 9mm, but after I shot my CCW test, I saw the guy next to me tearing it up--he was a fan of the M&P9. After test firing a G19 which was about the same as my Beretta 96, the M&P 9 was significantly better.
I am not a super-accurate shooter and with a lot of room for improvement, but something on that pistol agrees with me. That's why i am concerned about recent comments regarding the M&P. Its sounds a bit overblown--Its always good to be aware of issues, but I was struck by the LAV comments from the AAR when only 4 months ago in a vid for the HK45, it was stated to be very close to the HK in quality. That's big switch and definitely had my attention.
I may go back to considering the M&P in .45. Never a dull moment in the handgun community...
I posted my real life experience with my M&P 9, just as militarymoron did.
As I noted, I like the balance and natural pointability of the M&P. Without question, it's a fine, fine handgun.
But stop and think for a moment: who, especially on the Internet, would post that their accuracy sucks with a certain pistol without good reason?
IMO, it takes balls to admit that.
I'd suggest you re-read our posts more closely and see what other handguns we compared the M&P to and the accuracy we've experienced with them.
BTW, I bought my first pistol in 1976 -- a T Series BHP so I've been shooting for awhile and know what's kosher and what's not.
I'd suggest you re-read our posts more closely and see what other handguns we compared the M&P to and the accuracy we've experienced with them.
BTW, I bought my first pistol in 1976 -- a T Series BHP so I've been shooting for awhile and know what's kosher and what's not.
My M&P Pro 9 was a 5-6" gun at 25 yards. My Gen 4 G17 is a 1.5" gun at 25 yards. The M&P is a nice pistol though.
threeheadeddog
04-06-11, 17:40
I will say that while I can get decent accuracy out of my M&P it simply does not shoot as accurately as either my Sig(USA built) 229 or my CZ SP-01 did.
I posted my real life experience with my M&P 9, just as militarymoron did.
As I noted, I like the balance and natural pointability of the M&P. Without question, it's a fine, fine handgun.
But stop and think for a moment: who, especially on the Internet, would post that their accuracy sucks with a certain pistol without good reason?
IMO, it takes balls to admit that.
I'd suggest you re-read our posts more closely and see what other handguns we compared the M&P to and the accuracy we've experienced with them.
BTW, I bought my first pistol in 1976 -- a T Series BHP so I've been shooting for awhile and know what's kosher and what's not.
I'm not sure what the issue is, that I actually got better accuracy with the M&P or that my experience is different than yours. I'm not contradicting you--simply pointing out that some people do have a positive experience.
But the very fact that you aren't claiming benchrest groups suggests its an ergo/muscle memory issue. I don't doubt for a second that people may find the M&P less accurate than other pistols. I promise not be offended that you choose to shoot something else. It doesn't appear to be a problem of the order to cause people to recommend everyone avoid the gun completely (Like say 10" groups at 7 yards). Lots of folks win competitions with M&Ps.
My main concern is I read up on all the posts around here did my homework and now I hear reports that the M&P has issues reliability issues. At my level, the gun is not the limiting factor for accuracy.
It seems to me that now the M&P is in the doghouse and its pile-on time. I guess I missed the memo.
militarymoron
04-06-11, 18:27
It seems to me that now the M&P is in the doghouse and its pile-on time. I guess I missed the memo.
the 'memo' is the OP's original question, which was "I am starting read things about how certain people are not digging on the M&P's anymore due to various reasons. I am wondering what those reasons are and how should they be remedied?"
the OP was asking those who had negative experiences with the M&P to share them, if any, and how they were addressed. it's not a dogpile on the M&P; people are just answering the OP's question.
if the question was instead phrased as "M&P owners, have you had generally good or bad experiences with your pistols?", we might very well see 95% saying 'good' and 5% saying 'bad'. he just was wondering about that 5%.
It CAN be significant...not necessarily so for everyone. Some people can strap on a pistol with a half inch longer grip and you wouldn't notice anything.
this is true, just talking about my personal experience. Though the G19 seems to have a pretty big following on this forum and many other places as being the ideal size for a carry gun.
Just out of curiosity, have you tried moving it closer to your centerline? I found that when I moved the pistol closer to my belt, concealment improved tremendously.
you mean lower? That's actually what got me into carrying G19 sized guns :D Brian over at atomic dog put together a super low holster with just the right amount of cant. before that i was using a g26 for summer carry.
the 'memo' is the OP's original question, which was "I am starting read things about how certain people are not digging on the M&P's anymore due to various reasons. I am wondering what those reasons are and how should they be remedied?"
the OP was asking those who had negative experiences with the M&P to share them, if any, and how they were addressed. it's not a dogpile on the M&P; people are just answering the OP's question.
if the question was instead phrased as "M&P owners, have you had generally good or bad experiences with your pistols?", we might very well see 95% saying 'good' and 5% saying 'bad'. he just was wondering about that 5%.
Fair enough, I'm interested as well. I just can't seem to swing a dead cat around here without pissing in someone's cheerios.
What's got me most concerned is the suddenness of the change of opinion by some respected voices.
interesting thread...
what i'm taking away from this is do your research before you buy a gun, find out what the known issues of your pistol of choice are, and put some rounds through it before you use it for carry/duty...
militarymoron
04-06-11, 19:11
What's got me most concerned is the suddenness of the change of opinion by some respected voices.
i'd definitely be listening in, as well. i don't think i really brought up accuracy issues with my M&P until relatively recently because i thought it was me, and really didn't want to believe it was the gun. if a gun doesn't shoot well, i always figure that it's operator error, so i take myself out of the equation by asking someone who shoots better than i to try it out. it wasn't until this year's SHOT when i brought it up in conversation with some industry people (who were the ones who got me excited about buying the M&P when it was first introduced), and they revealed that they had similar issues with accuracy.
anyways, i openly admit that i'm no great shooter - mediocre maybe. but i'm consistently mediocre :)
i've no doubt the pistol has been continually been improved since i got mine; it looks like i'm in the minority that got an early lemon (which all manufacturers turn out once in a while) but all i have is the one i got, and i've been looking into my options, like a newer M&P barrel, storm lake, or KKM, that might possibly fix my issue (or not). but since i have other handguns that i shoot, it hasn't been a priority.
i stumbled upon this recent thread, where robb jensen, who is a shooter that i'd respect and trust to know what he's talking about when it comes to handgun accuracy, mentions some dissatisfaction with the factory barrel accuracy:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=76874
Unfortunately, QC seems to be at a new low with most of the common service pistol manufactures. Firearm sales are at record highs right now, and when that happens, shit gets thrown together and rushed to the market. They also change parts vendors (mags, springs etc) to keep up with demand, and that has a lot to do with the QC issues and inconsistencies from pistol to pistol.
I have seen some issues with M&P's that were a little concerning, but I can say the same thing about every other service pistol too. I have seen the baseplates fly off when doing speed reloads, one slide that locked to the rear that wouldn't go forward and the rusty slides. I have some very good friends that are issued them and they say that some are experiencing trigger problems, they bitch about the lack of reset and magazine issues (week springs). I don't know the extent or number of pistols that are having the problems, but I am sure it's few and far between. Most M&P's that I have had experience with run very well. In fact, I went to the range with some friends this weekend and shot his State issued M&P 9mm which ran well, but the trigger was crap, imo.
There's also complaints that I have read here on the forum that I personally haven't seen. I have read a couple of reports of the front sight drifting or falling off, accuracy issues and slide locks cracking. In the AAR from LAV's recent class, he was quoted as saying that he has seen a cracked barrel too.
Everybody (SIG, HK, Glock, S&W etc) is using cheaper parts now to increase there bottom line. You'll be very hard pressed to find a gun manufactured today that does not use MIM parts. I think it's here to stay and that's unfortunate.
All of my recently purchased pistols from my prefered brand have thankfully been GTG. But with all of the crap that is going on, I think that I am done buying anything until this storm passes through.
What's got me most concerned is the suddenness of the change of opinion by some respected voices.
I dunno. My wide review of M&P developments was summarized by Grant. The latest produced M&Ps sound like their best yet. The MA sear block being one of the most important upgrades IMO. (I had a couple of fail to resets in my Pro 9).
i've been looking into my options, like a newer M&P barrel, storm lake, or KKM, that might possibly fix my issue (or not). but since i have other handguns that i shoot, it hasn't been a priority.
From users on Brian Enos' forum who went the aftermarket barrel route and Randy Lee's reports here, I personally would not expect much gain from after market barrels . . . that is until the Bar Sto fitted barrel is available which is advertised to include delaying the unlock moment in firing.
The .45's OTOH have a great and consistent rep for accuracy.
I have a mid 2009 production M&P45. Great gun, feels awesome, feeds anything I can stuff into it (and I stuffed some REAL crap rounds thru it that should have been in the burn barrel) and very accurate. Only issue is the finish-it has divots all over the slide from worn cutters and a "stain" in the chamber. The finish/melonite was applied right over the blemishes. S&W reps have tried to get the gun away from me to fix the cosmetics, but I could care less, as long as it works. I spoke with a S&W rep who formerly worked for Glock and is a S&W fanboy now-he admitted that Glock wouldn't have let that finish get out the door.
I also have a 2009 full size 45, made after this gun, that has no cosmetic issues at all. And a late 2010 M&P45c that looks great too.
I think the M&P is a great gun in .45. My dept tested the M&P40 head to head against the 4th gen G22. The Glock went 8600 rounds in a couple of weeks without cleaning or malfunctions. I was told the S&W broke (don't ask-I really don't know what went on the gun) on the first mag. The rep stated that he had a fix for it. It was fixed, but broke something else later on. And the troops loved the ergos, but hated the trigger.
I bought a full size M&P 9mm and had nothing but malfunctions the first time I took it out. I'm not exaggerating when I say 1 out of every 3 rounds fired for the first 200 rounds was a stoppage.
I contacted S&W and they immediately sent me out a postage paid return slip. I sent the gun off to S&W and they sent it back in a timely manner. My only complaint is that they don't detail what they find or exactly the repair that is conducted when returning the gun.
I have yet to take the gun out again but plan on shooting it in the very near future. Just for reference I normally shoot and carry a G19 - 3rd Gen.
My brother bought a m&p 40 for our academy and towards to end of the academy kept having problems with it, I think it was mostly fail to go into battery. He has since switched to a glock rtf and loves it. He sent his m&p back and it hasn't been sent back yet. I'll get more specifics from him and post here.
Rmplstlskn
04-06-11, 21:51
Lovin' this thread... for my own reasons...
Rmpl
Just talked to my bro and he got his m&p back today. He said they modified the barrel and replaced the extractor. We'll have to go shoot it and see if it solved the problem.
FChen17213
04-06-11, 22:25
In my opinion, I don't like the trigger or the trigger reset. I know that aftermarket replacements do improve upon these things. In addition, the slide lock feels like a longer reach for me than a Glock. The Glock's finish is also more rust resistant. I also don't like the floor plates on the M&P's. It makes indexing the mag changes "different." Maybe I'm just too used to the Glock. I also had a few issues with a mag catch breaking. I had one of the earliest .40 M&P's when they first came out and I heard that some of the mag catches weren't properly heat treated. Smith-Wesson sent me a replacement for free though. Great customer service. Maybe I've been shooting Glocks too much and just don't see the advantage of the M&P.
.357sigger
04-06-11, 22:45
All of this talk about what's wrong with the M&P isn't boosting my confidence in using an M&P .40 for duty use...do the LE guns receive better quality control and/or parts than commercial guns?
Magsz, since you asked so politely :rolleyes: I'll go through the entire sequence again. I have run through this in the past but everybody keeps asking the same question w/o searching...go figure.
Note: Keep in mind that some shooters find their M&Ps to be more then acceptable to them. Good! Drive on and be happy.
First some background. I've been a cop for 24 years, yup, most cops can't shoot. How do I know? I try to improve their shooting skills. I have been a firearms instructor for 22 years and have worked for H&K International Training Division, along with other training groups and was selected as a Vickers Shooting Method Regional Instructor by Larry. I have attended in excess of 50 firearms and tactical courses. The point being I have a few rounds down range and do know which end of the gun is which.
Approximately 6-8 months after the M&P 9 came out I bought my first one. My initial impressions were that the ergonomics were outstanding, trigger was lousy with wayyy too much overtravel and more grit then 10 miles of dirt road. Accuracy was just okay, but I wasn't too disappointed. I did a trigger job and shot the gun for a few thousand rounds and decided to carry it as my duty gun and primary carry gun. I even bought a second to have as a spare (which also promptly had some trigger work done to it).
After carrying the gun for about 3 1/2 years and shooting in excess of 15,000 rounds through it I started to notice that the accuracy had taken a nose dive. This really hit home while shooting at 25 yards during a class. I was not at my best during the class so when I got home I spent several weeks just working on accuracy at 25 yards. During that time my average 25 yard ten shot group was running slightly over 6" with my best group being 4 1/2" On the same day I shot the 4 1/2" group I brought out a Glock 19 that had a set of 10-8 sights, Vickers mag catch and no other mods. My first attempt was a 2 7/8" group. After 24 years of cop work I recognize this as a clue! After a couple more strings it was obvious that the M&P was printing groups about twice the size of the 19. I then also shot the second M&P I own and a 17. I was getting 4-5" groups w/the M&P which wasn't bad, but not 3" either. The 17 was 3-4" and under 3" when I was inspired.
In spite of this I was not ready to give up on the M&P. I bought a Storm Lake barrel and found that accuracy was slightly better then the stock barrel but not what I was looking for yet. I sent the gun back to Smith who replaced the barrel and returned it very promptly. It was now shooting 4" groups but they were 7" high at 25 yards. At this point I was very frustrated.
I called some people I know in the training and firearms industry (no, I will not drop names as some folks seem to do ad nauseam). I found that my experience is NOT unique. While the 45 M&Ps seem to be more then acceptably accurate the 9s and 40s are dare I say it again, very hit or miss. I was going to have the Storm Lake barrel welded up and refit it but chose to cut my losses. At this time there are no gunsmith fit barrels available or I would have tried one in a heart beat.
I feel there are a few issues that are creating the inconsistent accuracy with the M&P 9s. They unlock far too quickly. I believe this is due to barrel fit as there is a great deal of play in the barrel to slide and barrel to locking block fit. Randy Lee also points to the barrel twist as an issue and Randy is far smarter then me so I'm inclined to agree.
Smith has done a lot of work to the M&P series as it has grown. I am glad to see an American company (especially Smith) produce a competitive handgun platform. With a bit more effort to alleviate the accuracy issues I think they may have the gun to beat.
PS: As far a photos of targets I find them to be inconsequential. If you don't believe what I'm typing why would you have any more faith in a photo of a target which you didn't see me shoot and have no idea of the circumstances that caused the holes to be placed in the target.
PPS: Guys get wrapped around the axle when it comes to accuracy. I want to be able to hit what I am shooting at. My unscientific test for a handgun is to be able to shoot 25 yard headshots on a IPDA target with regularity.
All of this talk about what's wrong with the M&P isn't boosting my confidence in using an M&P .40 for duty use...do the LE guns receive better quality control and/or parts than commercial guns?
This is a five page thread on the internet...
There are THOUSANDS of guns in the wild with ZERO issues. Only you can determine whether or not you're comfortable with the gun you're carrying. It is a machine, any machine can have issues at any given time.
Shoot the snot out of your gun, determine whether or not the trigger, ergo's, reliability of your sample and accuracy are up to snuff and carry the thing without worry.
Joe,
Sorry that i didnt ask politely enough for you. :)
The photos were merely a request for SOME form of realistic data. I agree with you, a photo doesnt mean anything because its not verifiable information. I can shoot my best group at bad breath distance then move my target back to 25 yards and take a photo. Again, its not verifiable BUT, on a forum with known entities, i tend to take things at face value and trust what people say. For example, JW has posted some pretty amazing groups from his M&P's in some previous threads and i absolutely take that as fact as i trust the dude and respect his knowledge and opinions.
You've given me no reason to doubt your findings just the same since you post in an eloquent manner, there doesnt seem to be any hidden agenda and we are two adults having a discussion. If you came across as being someone with an axe to grind, or wanted to prove something then i would call a photo into question.
This is neither here nor there, just a brief explanation as to what i was attempting to gain, which was statistical proof of an issue.
I even said earlier im not going to put my head in the sand and scream until im deafened by my own voice just to convince myself that the gun is perfect. Far from as ive already acknowledged that there are still some issues to be worked out, alot of issues that HAVE been worked out and yet more minor niggles (the accuracy being one of them) that guys like Mr Lee are working to sort out as well.
I will be honest, my request for supporting evidence that there is indeed a true problem with the DESIGN of the pistol is born out of the fact that i dont like seeing a good machine with alot of potential near black listed because influential people in the industry are changing their tunes and suddenly saying, "woah now, this pistol has been screwed by S&W" when all of the evidence that my two little eyeballs sees is pointing towards a very steadily evolving design that IS being improved upon and fixed as time goes on.
Again, im nobody, just a guy that likes to shoot, likes to read and talks to more guys like myself. IF there is indeed a true problem, i would hope that the Industry professionals that are filtering this information down hill would make it known so that WE the consumers (and gents like you that are LE and a consumer in your own right) can speak with our wallets and tell Smith to buck the **** up and fix the gun.
Hopefully we are tracking now as ive made MY agenda clear. :)
Tornado_Racing
04-07-11, 06:03
My M&P9 (w/DCEAK & RAM installed) has been flawless since day one. I've only got roughly 500 rounds through it but no issues at all other than a tilted follower (old style). I've run Federal 115 grain, Winchester WB 115 grain, Winchester Ranger 147 grain, Winchester PDX 124 grain, Remington JHP 115 grain, Remington FMJ 115 grain, Remington GS 124 grain, Gold Dot 124 grain +P with no issues. To my surprise the Remington line was the most accurate through the threaded Spec Ops barrel.
500 rds. is a good day at the range.....
Tornado_Racing
04-07-11, 06:54
500 rds. is a good day at the range.....
I agree :D
My work schedule has changed (along with my local range being closed) and doesn't allow me to shoot as much as once did. After reading about the early issues in the M&P my post is just a statement backing up how S&W has fixed certain issues.
It just surprised me how accurate the Remington UMC & Golden Saber was. I am by no means a pro/expert shooter but IMHO it doesn't matter what type of round you shoot, if it aint accurate your just waisting time. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the pistol, but the Remington line makes me look better punching holes in paper.
I don't know about the accuracy of the 9 & 40 and when i first took my 45 mid to the range I became very worried about accuracy issues when my shots were all over the place at 25 yards. 10 yards and in my weapon seemed to be fine. However after taking LAV's Basic and 2 Day handgun course it has become abundently clear my accuracy issues were mostly trigger control. Doing his walk back drill I easily could hit a torso sized steel target center mass out to 75 yards=/-. In the AAR of the 2 Day course I stated that my only problem with my weapon is the slide stop release. It takes a ton of pressure to release it with a locked slide. Even if i use both thumbs, one on each side of the weapon it takes a ton of pressure. I also had Grant install the Apex DCAEK parts and the trigger seems fine to me. I can even feel a definite reset. As far as ergos I love it. I have a small hand and the Glock 21 just has to big of a grip for me.
After reading this thread it seems as if the 45 isn't experiencing the problems of the 9 and 40. For now looks like I'm sticking with the 45.
The .40's and especially the .45's seem to be the most trouble free, the 9mm's are the ones that have seen the majority of issues. There are a few .357 SIG models in use by a number of state police departments around the county.
Not all of the M&P's out there are going to be problematic, but it does seem like the 9mm's are more prone to issues.
I hope S&W can work it out.
It seems like we're going through the 1970's/80's all over again, where S&W and Colt went through some very hard times and QC went into the toilet. We just have more companies putting out sub standard and/or buggy guns within the last 5 years or so.
Cincinnatus
04-07-11, 08:18
My only complaint is that they don't detail what they find or exactly the repair that is conducted when returning the gun.
.
That is not always the case. I sent in a 1911PD for repair and on the return slip, they told me exactly what they did: replaced hammer to correct falling into half-cock.
As far as the M&P goes, have shot several thousand rounds through a .40 with never a stoppage yet.
All of this talk about what's wrong with the M&P isn't boosting my confidence in using an M&P .40 for duty use...do the LE guns receive better quality control and/or parts than commercial guns?
Yes on the QC.
C4
John_Wayne777
04-07-11, 10:10
For example, JW has posted some pretty amazing groups from his M&P's in some previous threads and i absolutely take that as fact as i trust the dude and respect his knowledge and opinions.
I appreciate the vote of confidence. :D I have exactly the same faith in what Joe is saying.
I've had several issues with my M&P's but accuracy has never been one of them. When I shoot a bad group I can clearly identify that I shot the bad group. When I surprise myself and shoot a really good one, I whip out the cell phone and snap a pic. One of the pics I've posted before was on the real 25 yard version o the 700 aggregate in a class with Tiger Swan where I shot a 625 in front of a line full of people shooting the same drill. That was my first time shooting the drill and I didn't think I did half bad. It should have been at least 10-20 points higher had the idiot behind the gun not gotten sloppy on his sight alignment...but I didn't miss any shots because of the pistol. On the occasions when the nut behind the gun isn't screwing the trigger and sights bit up, my guns seem to perform very well in the accuracy department. Luck of the draw, I suppose. That's the core of the issue, in my view. Smith is not putting out a product that's terribly consistent. We all expect that any mass-manufacturer of firearms will ship a lemon on occasion, but Smith seems to be exceeding that threshold either because of trying to gain efficiencies in production or because they're still working through some bugs in the manufacture of the weapon.
...but as I mentioned before, that's the state for just about everybody in the industry. We are now in the full bloom of what I've termed the "Glock effect". When the Glock came along with a lower bottom line than anyone else it changed the industry and we're just now seeing the full effect of a run toward the bottom by most gun companies. H&K is probably the only manufacturer that hasn't joined the race...and that's one of the reason why their weapons cost twice as much on the dealer's shelf as everybody else's and why their market share in the US will only be a fraction of what everyone else's is. (That and their previously earned reputation for support)
As far as bets go, for the dude who walks into the gun store hoping for an option that is least likely to screw him over, the M&P is still a decent bet, IMO. Not as good a bet as a good Gen3 Glock in 9mm, or a P30 (neither of those are immune from the lemon law), but still if he gets one that works properly out of the box it's likely to perform well for him over a reasonable service life. If he gets one that has a problem, S&W is usually pretty good about fixing them.
Smith is not putting out a product that's terribly consistent. We all expect that any mass-manufacturer of firearms will ship a lemon on occasion, but Smith seems to be exceeding that threshold either because of trying to gain efficiencies in production or because they're still working through some bugs in the manufacture of the weapon.
I would have a hard time buying anything new from S&W after my experience with my 9mm M&P and also a "no lock" 442. Slightly off topic but I managed to fire 3 rounds through the brand new J frame I bought before it shit the bed and would not strike a primer after those initial rounds. Again, Smith had good customer service and now the revolver appears to be OK after shooting approximately 200 trouble free rounds but it doesn't have my full confidence yet.
A very good friend of mine, also an LEO, raves about his .45 M&P. It's his duty gun and he's had nothing but positive things to say about it. He is a gun guy and puts plenty of rounds down range a year and he swears by the .45 M&P.
Grant, is Smith finishing their slides differently? Recent examples I have seen seem to have a much darker & heavier finish.
My M&P45 broke its trigger pin and became inoperable after about 3500-4000ish rounds.
I've had problems with my M&P9.
First, it would completely fail to extract a case one time out of every 200-400 rounds. This happened with several types of ammo, including Ranger. It seems that the 9mm uses the same extractor as the original .40. An Apex extractor completely eliminated this issue and I have not had one in like 2K-3K rounds.
I have also had the slide release on the left side break after about 5000ish rounds:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/MPslidereleasebreak.jpg
But the issue that really bothers me is that I've had about 4 or 5 instances where the rounds in the magazine got lodged together and the mag would not feed. This has happened with a different magazine each time and happened despite the fact that I have upgraded followers and installed ISMI extra powered springs.
Below is a picture of it:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag2-1.jpg
I suspect that it something was not done right with the redesign of the magazine for 9mm that makes it vulnerable to this.
When you look at the number of occurances that I have had divided by the number of rounds through the gun, it only translates into one instance per 1200-1500 rounds through the gun. But I have not had this happen with any other gun, so it bothers me.
Below is a link to a thread on my M&P9mm magazine issues.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51142&highlight=magazines
eightmillimeter
04-07-11, 20:51
We saw all kinds of quirky little problems with a few guns when we switched to MP40 in 2006. Since then practically no problems. Now we are coming up on five years and rumor is that a major overhaul is in the works (springs pins etc). We usually run our guns for ten years or so, and I have a feeling if things continue to go well we may stretch the current inventory to more than that. Even if we get new guns again in five years I'd be perfectly happy with more MP's.
I owned four since they first came out. My plan was to replace my GLOCK pistols with M&Ps. I preferred the grip and believed them to be the only serious option for price and capability when compared to the GLOCK. Bottom line...for me the GLOCK was a little smaller, lighter and less complicated with more aftermarket support. I sold or traded the M&Ps, stayed with GLOCK and have not looked back.
I will say that I still consider the M&P to be the only potential GLOCK killer in the LE market share arena. I liked them a lot but preferred the GLOCK. If issued one I would still be a happy camper.
I owned an M&P 40. Key word being owned. It was an earlier model, purchased 07-07. I shot it competetively in college. I had about 400 rounds through it the first time it malfunctioned, unseating the magazine after every round fired. I sent it back to S&W, who "fixed" it promptly, and sent it back. 100 rounds later, same problem. I sent it back again, it was returned, still unseated magazines after every round. I just made sure to have my support hand holding the magazine in. Then the right side slide release broke. I gave up, and gave the gun to my dad. Then I bought a Sig 226. Couldn't be happier with my Sig. I won 2 national titles with the Sig. I hope the new M&Ps are better than the first generations. It was very easy to shoot, and i really wanted to like it.
Yes on the QC.
C4
Grant -
How can we identify one of these LE guns that have the extra care in QC?
The M&P 9c has been the only pistol that I have shot over the past year. Closing in on 35 range sessions with it with an estimated 3000 to 3500 round count. This is with all types of ammo, wwb, federal,reloads....
Only one failure to extract to date. That occured after about 25 range sessions but none since. Only cleaned it once in the first 10 range sessions.
Had to send back to the factory to have the rear sight realigned which I posted here when I had it done. I also have the apex sear.
That said, does anyone know if the 9c has had less teething pains than the full size or is there much variation in the design?
I was thinking of getting the full size slide but this thread makes me ponder.
I was going to get a Glock 19 originally but never shot the range rental well at all but when I shot the M&P 40 rental it was tremendous how much better I did.
This is just an observation of the platform from a relative newcomer to the pistol shooting world.
I suspect that it something was not done right with the redesign of the magazine for 9mm that makes it vulnerable to this.
Very weird. It's like the round underneath tries to squeeze past the one above and they get jammed up. I wonder if they will end up putting more or wider grooves to thin out the space inside the mag body in a future revision of the 9mm mags to prevent this. There shouldn't be enough room for them to almost pass side by side like that.
If this happened in an SD situation it would take a bit to get back up and running with a spare magazine.
Very weird. It's like the round underneath tries to squeeze past the one above and they get jammed up. I wonder if they will end up putting more or wider grooves to thin out the space inside the mag body in a future revision of the 9mm mags to prevent this. There shouldn't be enough room for them to almost pass side by side like that.
This is why I suspect that it would not be an issue with the wider .40 S&W round.
If it happened once I would consider it a fluke and shitcan the effected magazine.
But I checked my records and issue occurred 4 times with 4 different magazines with the M&P9. The last time was with a magazine with a new follower and ISMI increased power (+10%) spring. This spring only allows me to load 16 rounds in the magazine.
When you look at 4 times out of over 6500-7000+ rounds that I have through the gun, I suppose it isn't a big deal.
However when you drop a mag from the gun that you are carrying and discover that two rounds in it are wedged together so that it will prevent spring tension from feeding the top round, it is another matter. This is how I first became aware of the issue.
Guns tend to be made better so we have higher expectations than we did several decades ago. I also think we tend to put more rounds through guns than we did decades ago, which may exacerbate wear issues.
margo walters
04-07-11, 23:01
My agency transitioned to the M&P .40 about this time last year, all of which are issued with Insight WX150 rail lights. Quite a few of our guns have had one or both of the slide stop levers fall off during range sessions. We also had some durability issues with the first batch of magazines we were issued. I've found on a press check, the gun does not always go back into battery after releasing the slide.
Those issues aside, I've put about 3000 rounds through my issued weapon with and without the light and it has never failed to go bang when I pull the trigger. I'm a GLOCK guy through and through, but I have no qualms with carrying my M&P on the street.
Ed,
Why are you using ISMI extra power springs?
Have you seen this issue with the stock, factory springs?
I have had the same issue but only in my mags with the arredondo extensions and the extra power springs.
I have NEVER had this occur in any of my stock magazines.
Ed,
Why are you using ISMI extra power springs?
I started using the ISMI extra power spring after I had the magazine sticking issue happen three times with the standard S&W stock factory springs in three different mags out of a total of 8 mags that I had for the gun that I rotated through. So it wasn't that I wore out the mags through use.
I thought they would correct it, but I have had it happen with the extra power springs as well.
I have had the same issue but only in my mags with the arredondo extensions and the extra power springs.
I've never used any extensions.
I have NEVER had this occur in any of my stock magazines.
Well, if you have a good number of rounds through the mags without an issue, don't worry about it. It means that I am cursed and you are not:)
Find a witch doctor, get that curse lifted!
Forgive me if i glossed over this but are all of your mag bodies the newest gen?
I have mostly newer generation magazines with only six out of my 35 being the older, blued magazines with the gray follower instead of the..um...light grey/white follower. (they're very similar looking although clearly different)
Also, what type of surface do you routinely shoot on? Find sand? Dirt?
I started using the ISMI extra power spring after I had the magazine sticking issue happen three times with the standard S&W stock factory springs in three different mags out of a total of 8 mags that I had for the gun that I rotated through. So it wasn't that I wore out the mags through use.
I thought they would correct it, but I have had it happen with the extra power springs as well.
I saw this same malfunction in one of my M&P 9mm mags straight out of the factory packaging. And it would foul like this very consistently, more often than not. In fact I'm not sure it ever fed a full magazine load successfully. After one attempt to use it at the range I tossed it in a corner. It did have the white follower although I bought it new around April of last year.
Correct. Same way you do on a Glock or 1911.
Yes, I know that many use their strong hand thumb. I also know that many people have problems with the slide not locking back on the last round. ;)
C4
Grant. Thanks for the tip. Tried this out last night.......Slick.
I'm an old Hi-Power hand and always used my strong hand thumb, as the release is accessable.
It's gonna take some repetitions to get me straight.
Scoby
Grant -
How can we identify one of these LE guns that have the extra care in QC?
By the SKU number.
C4
Grant. Thanks for the tip. Tried this out last night.......Slick.
I'm an old Hi-Power hand and always used my strong hand thumb, as the release is accessable.
It's gonna take some repetitions to get me straight.
Scoby
Cool!
C4
By the SKU number.
C4
Hopefully 209921 falls into that category as I paid a premium to get it after my regular dealer fell through on the VTAC I ordered damn near a year ago.
The .40's and especially the .45's seem to be the most trouble free, the 9mm's are the ones that have seen the majority of issues.
Not all of the M&P's out there are going to be problematic, but it does seem like the 9mm's are more prone to issues.
It is usually the exact opposite.
It is usually the exact opposite.
Typically. S&W designed the M&P around the 40 caliber. Glock designed their guns around the 9mm. This is why the M&P in 40 and GEN 3 Glocks in 9mm are KING.
The reason for why the M&P 45's are so well thought of is because they built them for the SOCOM contract (that never happened). Their accuracy is fantastic. My mid-framed 45 shoots 1.5" groups. My 9mm with either a factory barrel or a Storm lake shoots 3" groups with 115gr ball ammo. I do get better groups with + P ammo though.
C4
I have had three M&P's. One in 40FS, 9FS & 9c. Sold the 40 when I consolidated to 9mm. I have had almost no issues with either of my 9's. My FS had had maybe 3 FTE's over a couple thousand rounds of WWB. These occured within the first 500 rounds and haven't happened since. My 9c has been 100% reliable and is more accurate than my FS. The only issue I have ever had was a dead trigger on the FS after installing the Apex RAM. I can't blame that on Smith. Both sear blocks are on their way to Apex for the sear block mod because I like the trigger reset with the RAM installed. It caused no issues in my 9c though. Both have DCAEK kits.
A buddy bought his 9FS at the same time as I did from G&R. His has had consistent FTE's and bad mags. I have encouraged him to send it in to Smith, but he doesn't shoot much and hasn't followed up.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
The reason for why the M&P 45's are so well thought of is because they built them for the SOCOM contract (that never happened). Their accuracy is fantastic. My mid-framed 45 shoots 1.5" groups.
C4
This makes me wonder why the M&P .45 wasn't involved in the testing for NSW's new .45 contract. IIRC, the weapons that were tested came from SIG, Glock and HK.
My 9c has been 100% reliable and is more accurate than my FS.
I only have a 9c. What kind of differences were you noticing between the compact vs the FS?
I only have a 9c. What kind of differences were you noticing between the compact vs the FS?
I haven't shot either for 25 yd groups like some of these guys and I've never measured a pistol group. I would estimate 30% better group sizes with the 9c. These are offhand, unsupported slow fire groups. If I had to guesstimate, its probably something like an average 2"-3" with the 9c and 3"-4" with the FS @ 10 yds. At closer distances, 5-7 yards, my 9c will shoot one hole 5 round groups, but I don't do a lot of slow fire shooting for accuracy. I like to shoot the FS more though. Its not as snappy as the 9c and I can shoot it with more speed. At 10 yards, I can chew the center out of a 6" shoot n see target at speed with the FS, so as for combat type accuracy, the FS meets my needs just fine. After all of this discussion, my curiosity has been peaked, so I'll probably see how they both do at 25 on my next range trip.
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dwhitehorne
04-08-11, 18:11
I traded a full size 9mm for a compact to try out the compact. I'm not sure why but I shoot the compact much more accurately that I did with the full size. David
. After all of this discussion, my curiosity has been peaked, so I'll probably see how they both do at 25 on my next range trip.
Pls post or PM me once you do with results; curious also. I was thinking of buying a full size slide. I need to go to a range that has the FS to test out. My 9c is snappy and would like to see how it compares.
Hopefully 209921 falls into that category as I paid a premium to get it after my regular dealer fell through on the VTAC I ordered damn near a year ago.
And my 309301 was a LE purchase.
Find a witch doctor, get that curse lifted!
At this point I think I need intervention from the Vatican
Forgive me if i glossed over this but are all of your mag bodies the newest gen?
Thanks, and now I think we may be getting somewhere with my magazines.
I had three instances of the rounds wedging together with gen 2 mags with Gen 2 followers. I then replaced the followers with Gen 3 followers and the ISMI extra power springs and got another instance of it.
Now, here is the issue are the liners on the newer mags any deeper than the older ones? By liners--I mean those indentations that are on both sides of holes that indicate the number of rounds on the magazine. If those indentations were deeper into the magazine, they could prevent the rounds from getting wedged together since there would not be space for the rounds to get caught side by side.
Also, what type of surface do you routinely shoot on? Find sand? Dirt?
Most of the surfaces are concrete or cement. The only time I am firing on dirt is training classes. The first time this occurred the mags had never been near dirt or sand. The mags were not dirty. I have never had this issue occur with any other double column mags.
The reason for why the M&P 45's are so well thought of is because they built them for the SOCOM contract (that never happened). Their accuracy is fantastic. My mid-framed 45 shoots 1.5" groups. My 9mm with either a factory barrel or a Storm lake shoots 3" groups with 115gr ball ammo. I do get better groups with + P ammo though.
C4
I don't have a lot of trigger time with the M&Ps, but every one I've shot seemed pretty nice. I'm a 3rd Gen Glock 9mm guy, so the M&P 9 and .40 don't really light my fire. But I will say my father-in-laws new M&P45 is probably one of the most accurate pistols I've ever shot, including the HK45 I owned for a while. My first group with his M&P45 was probably 2/3rds the size of the group I fired two minutes earlier with my G34. Whatever is said about the M&P9 and .40, their .45 pretty nice.
Everybody (SIG, HK, Glock, S&W etc) is using cheaper parts now to increase there bottom line. You'll be very hard pressed to find a gun manufactured today that does not use MIM parts. I think it's here to stay and that's unfortunate.
This is getting ridiculous.
Care to share specific examples of HK using "cheaper" parts just to "increase" their bottom line? You do realize that the American civilian market is a virtual non-factor for HK, right? They could care less about speeding up production as the US civilian market is a insignificant fraction of their income. They focus primarily on multi-national military contracts. Further, they make EVERY part in-house on their own machinery and they literally spend months, if not years, testing and proofing those parts before they release them on current-production weapons. They are not going to change a mold or the composition of the metal in their parts because they sold an extra 1,000 pistols in Alabama last week. So no, they have never used "cheaper parts" because they can't, it doesn't work with their business model.
S&W's M&P issues are teething issues - they aren't the result of reduced quality, these are issues that were inherent to the original designs of the gun and/or the subsequent changes to rectify those issues. They are constantly being revised, reworked, then re-released... and repeated if necessary. This has nothing whatsoever to do with them trying to go with "cheaper parts."
Further, MIM parts are not all evil. The entire myth of MIM parts came up when gun manufacturers started using MIM for parts that should have been forged so they could competitively enter a market that was prohibitively expensive because it required extensive forged parts. That said, there's no reason to forge a trigger or sear if it bears virtually no load, provided the metal composition used in the MIM casting is correct. Sure, you could spend hours forging a part, but it would offer no benefit while multiplying costs. Just because a pistol uses MIM parts does not mean it's a reduction in quality. Using cheap metal in a MIM part is what reduces quality.
Sorry, but it's pretty obvious you're trying to lump every other quality gun manufacturer in with Sig in an attempt to self-justify Sigs shoddy quality to yourself for the 100th time.
This is getting ridiculous.
Care to share specific examples of HK using "cheaper" parts just to "increase" their bottom line? You do realize that the American civilian market is a virtual non-factor for HK, right? They could care less about speeding up production as the US civilian market is a insignificant fraction of their income. They focus primarily on multi-national military contracts. Further, they make EVERY part in-house on their own machinery and they literally spend months, if not years, testing and proofing those parts before they release them on current-production weapons. They are not going to change a mold or the composition of the metal in their parts because they sold an extra 1,000 pistols in Alabama last week. So no, they have never used "cheaper parts" because they can't, it doesn't work with their business model.
S&W's M&P issues are teething issues - they aren't the result of reduced quality, these are issues that were inherent to the original designs of the gun and/or the subsequent changes to rectify those issues. They are constantly being revised, reworked, then re-released... and repeated if necessary. This has nothing whatsoever to do with them trying to go with "cheaper parts."
Further, MIM parts are not all evil. The entire myth of MIM parts came up when gun manufacturers started using MIM for parts that should have been forged so they could competitively enter a market that was prohibitively expensive because it required extensive forged parts. That said, there's no reason to forge a trigger or sear if it bears virtually no load, provided the metal composition used in the MIM casting is correct. Sure, you could spend hours forging a part, but it would offer no benefit while multiplying costs. Just because a pistol uses MIM parts does not mean it's a reduction in quality. Using cheap metal in a MIM part is what reduces quality.
Sorry, but it's pretty obvious you're trying to lump every other quality gun manufacturer in with Sig in an attempt to self-justify Sigs shoddy quality to yourself for the 100th time.
WTF? The only thing that is ridiculous is your trolling of my posts.
Yes, H&K uses MIM parts to cut costs. Do they try to make a profit? I would sure hope so since they have been bankrupt or close to bankruptcy several times. Are they perfect? Nope. As someone else said in this thread, do a search and you can find problems with H&K's too. While you're searching that, try to find where a SME on this board said that he has seen hundreds of .gov 416's go back to the factory for QC issues. Would I trust an HK to run straight out of the box without issues right now? Yep. I have said several times that H&K's are some of the finest pistols you can get right now; so you're pissing up the wrong tree, bud. I know that H&K's are a tiny fraction of the US pistol market. That's why it's rare that you hear about a problem with them. When S&W sells 25k pistols to every 1k H&K, you will hear more about S&W's problems, even though they both may be running at a 5% failure/return rate (example).
Regarding your statement about the M&P's problems are "teething issues." Have you read the thread? Have you read what Larry Vickers stated? Have you read what the IP's of this board and other individuals that have had problems with them said? If the problems were happening within 2-3 years of the release of the pistol, then yeah, I would call them "teething issues."
If you read what I wrote, you would see that I stated a few issues that I have seen during quals/in-service and training. I was one of the few in this thread that had some good things to say about the M&P, as most that I have seen run great, but a few have had some quirks from what I have experienced. So once again, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Yes, I know that all MIM parts aren't bad. The majority on the errornet believe that the dip in quality with several companies is because of the use of MIM parts though. I don't know if MIM parts are to blame for the drop in quality, but I do know that I have not had one fail yet.
How much experience have you had with all makes and calibers of the common service pistols? Do you have experience with new SIGs, or any other companies pistols with a greater example than one? I do, and if I recall, I don't need to check with you before I state my expeiences with them. If you don't like what I have to say, oh well. You seem to be offended when I say that my SIGs, US or German made, run great for me. They have, and I put around 10k rounds through them in a year with zero parts breakage. I also can't remember the last time that I have had a malfunction that wasn't induced by me for training purposes. I'm sorry that you get butthurt about my experiences but, quite frankly, I don't give a shit what you think.
Again, if you read the thread, you'll notice a couple of posts that said exactly what I did regarding the current state of the firearms industry, including JW's. So stop trolling my posts.
Have a great day!
Yes, H&K uses MIM parts to cut costs. Do they try to make a profit? I would sure hope so since they have been bankrupt or close to bankruptcy several times. Are they perfect? Nope. As someone else said in this thread, do a search and you can find problems with H&K's too.
That is not what you said in your original post. You said, quote,
"Everybody (SIG, HK, Glock, S&W etc) is using cheaper parts now to increase there bottom line." Whether or not H&K or any other manufacturer has issues is completely unrelated to them dropping part quality to up quantity, which is what you claimed. Unless you can provide proof, you're spewing opinionated non-sense. HK creates every part of every pistol in house and it is NOT financially viable for them to decrease quality to increase quantity. The R&D costs alone would outweigh the benefit.
While you're searching that, try to find where a SME on this board said that he has seen hundreds of .gov 416's go back to the factory for QC issues. Would I trust an HK to run straight out of the box without issues right now? Yep. I have said several times that H&K's are some of the finest pistols you can get right now; so you're pissing up the wrong tree, bud. I know that H&K's are a tiny fraction of the US pistol market. That's why it's rare that you hear about a problem with them. When S&W sells 25k pistols to every 1k H&K, you will hear more about S&W's problems, even though they both may be running at a 5% failure/return rate (example).
And what the heck does this have to do with your original statement that "Everybody (SIG, HK, Glock, S&W etc) is using cheaper parts now to increase there bottom line." Quit trying to strawman this topic by claiming that issues with weapons somehow correlate to manufacturers changing design specs by using cheaper parts.
Weapons are machines. Machines are designed by men. Anything designed by a man is inherently imperfect. Therefore, weapons will be imperfect and have flaws. However, that is completely unrelated from taking a perfected, functioning weapon and using cheaper parts to increase production, like Sig has done.
Your HK416 example is also flawed on every level. The 416 is new and it will have QC issues and function issues, but to claim it's because HK... is using cheaper parts now to increase there bottom line is utterly ridiculous. Further, to do that would be a breech of US military contract, as EVERY part of the weapon must meet the TDP for that weapon and cannot deviate whatsoever. No, it has absolutely nothing to do with "cheaper parts."
Regarding your statement about the M&P's problems are "teething issues." Have you read the thread? Have you read what Larry Vickers stated? Have you read what the IP's of this board and other individuals that have had problems with them said? If the problems were happening within 2-3 years of the release of the pistol, then yeah, I would call them "teething issues."
Quit trying to skew the topic. You said, quote: "Everybody (SIG, HK, Glock, S&W etc) is using cheaper parts now to increase there bottom line." Point out where those issues were caused by going to "cheaper parts." If you can't, you're wrong.
If you read what I wrote, you would see that I stated a few issues that I have seen during quals/in-service and training. I was one of the few in this thread that had some good things to say about the M&P, as most that I have seen run great, but a few have had some quirks from what I have experienced. So once again, you're barking up the wrong tree.
You could sya 100 good things about the M&P. That doesn't change the fact that you've made a sweeping blanket statement with zero substantiated proof. The examples you have supplied are either directly irrelevant or right out lies (i.e. the 416 cannot use "cheaper parts" as the construction is directly dictated by the US military).
How much experience have you had with all makes and calibers of the common service pistols? Do you have experience with new SIGs, or any other companies pistols with a greater example than one? I do, and if I recall, I don't need to check with you before I state my expeiences with them. If you don't like what I have to say, oh well. You seem to be offended when I say that my SIGs, US or German made, run great for me. They have, and I put around 10k rounds through them in a year with zero parts breakage. I also can't remember the last time that I have had a malfunction that wasn't induced by me for training purposes. I'm sorry that you get butthurt about my experiences but, quite frankly, I don't give a shit what you think.
Yet again, what does MY experience have to do with the subject? It doesn't (not that I'm trying to avoid the question - it just isn't relevant). You said that these issues were caused by "cheaper parts." PROVE IT or quit posting your opinion.
So stop trolling my posts.
I'm not trolling and you can't use that as an excuse every time someone asks you for proof. You posted your opinion and passed it off as fact. This is now the 7th or 8th thread you've posted in where you either liken other manufacturers to Sig or try to lump them in together using the "quality drops during high demand" argument. Either back it up or quit repeating it.
Save your breath, he does the same thing on ar15.com. He has also said on more than one occasion that Sig's QC has not declined, it's just internet hype.
John_Wayne777
04-09-11, 11:03
Gentlemen: This conversation is veering off into the ditch. Let's let what is said on other sites stay there and leave the grudges with them. The goal of this thread is to discuss the legit issues people are having with the M&P.
Snip
Aren't you a peach. I'm sorry that I pissed in your H&K cherrios.
Yes, some manufactures are using MIM parts (cheaper) in their firearms now when they didn't before.
Yes, QC has gone down. Several others have said it too. The SME (Dano) that mentioned the 416's said it was a QC issue. I'm sure he would tell you about it if you want to IM him.
Save your breath, he does the same thing on ar15.com. He has also said on more than one occasion that Sig's QC has not declined, it's just internet hype.
No, I said that it is so overblown that it has turned into an errornet meme now. You have no more of a chance to get a lemon SIG classic series than an M&P or Glock right now. Obviously.
Actually, never mind.
I'm not about to participate in this Sig foolishness, especially not in this thread. Apologies to the OP
I believe we were discussing the M&P . . .
There are many that own an M&P and people such as myself that recently purchased an M&P. I appreciate factual information and would ask those with an ax to grind, please do not muddy this thread.
There are many that own an M&P and people such as myself that recently purchased an M&P. I appreciate factual information and would ask those with an ax to grind, please do not muddy this thread.
This. I have dedicated to just the last year to just shooting platform. Before I buy holsters, CTC, maybe even mill an additional slide I would like to know specific issues that maybe arising.
The M&P9 may not be perfect, but I won't be getting rid of mine anytime soon.
I had a Glock 17 first, but found that the M&P had some advantages that I could not replicate in the Glock.
-It indexed better with my hand, and as such I could draw it more rapidly with confidence that my grip would be in the right place. Despite a lot of practice, I frequently gripped the Glock too high (and got bloody) or too low (and experienced poor recoil control) when I drew quickly.
-The safety gave me the confidence to carry AIWB, which I was not comfortable with on the Glock. I have found that AIWB affords faster draws, better control over the gun while carrying, and improved concealment. For me, it has become almost a must.
-The recoil and muzzle control was better with the M&P (possibly as the result of a better ergonomic match with my hand). I found that my performance was better with the M&P in rapid, relatively close range drills that mirror the kind of threats that I am likely to face.
-I found that I prefer the APEX M&P trigger to a polished Glock (-) connector trigger.
Over the course of thousands of rounds, my M&P proved itself to be just as reliable as my Glock. No feeding problems, no extraction problems, no failures to reset, no dropped mags, etc.
It is not, however, perfect.
The M&P occasionally develops tiny points of rust on the slide that come off easily with CLP. This was never an issue with the Glock. I could send it in, but at this point it is a minor issue that has not outweighed the risk that a new slide could cause problems. Annoying, but not a deal breaker.
It does not like wolf primers in my reloads and occasionally light strikes on them, but then again so did the Glock. CCI primers have never failed to ignite on the first strike, nor has factory ammo.
In terms of accuracy, it does seem to be a bit worse than my old Glock. I can still, however, keep everything in a 2 inch box at ten yards in slow fire. Although this might not cut it for some professional applications, it is good enough for my civilian self-defense carry pistol. Sure, I would love it to be capable of 1.5" ten shot groups at 25 yards- but other factors are more important in deciding what I want to carry.
The reset is relatively weak even with APEX parts, and it took some effort to intuitively learn the reset point.
I recognize that a Gen 3 Glock 17/19 is more likely to be trouble free out of the box, and may be a bit more accurate on average. If I was a uniformed professional carrying OWB and did not have such gigantic hands, the cost-benefit analysis might be different.
The point of all my babbling is that no pistol walks on water; all have their plusses and minuses. It would be great if S&W changed the barrels to make the accuracy more consistent, improved the finish on their slides, and tightened the tolerances to prevent the reset issues that some people have. Regardless, after spending a whole lot of time and money on different guns I have found that the M&P fits my needs the best out of anything out there. I have no plans to switch back.
militarymoron
04-11-11, 10:46
on the first page, i mentioned that i am experiencing accuracy issues with my early full size 9mm, and i that i suspected that it was the pistol, and not me. well, this past weekend, we confirmed that it's the barrel. i was in a class, and asked the instructor to help me with the issue. the instructor and i both shot my pistol, and we both shot similar groups that were worse than we'd expect normally, which is what i've been observing with my M&P. we then swapped out my stock barrel with a stock barrel from another full size M&P, and the group sizes immediately shrank in half for both of us, to what i usually deem 'normal' from shooting my other handguns.
time for a different barrel.
G34Shooter
04-11-11, 10:52
on the first page, i mentioned that i am experiencing accuracy issues with my early full size 9mm, and i that i suspected that it was the pistol, and not me. well, this past weekend, we confirmed that it's the barrel. i was in a class, and asked the instructor to help me with the issue. the instructor and i both shot my pistol, and we both shot similar groups that were worse than we'd expect normally, which is what i've been observing with my M&P. we then swapped out my stock barrel with a stock barrel from another full size M&P, and the group sizes immediately shrank in half for both of us, to what i usually deem 'normal' from shooting my other handguns.
time for a different barrel.
Let Smith fix it on their dime.
I agree with G34. I think Smith would honor the request for a replacement barrel. On an interesting note, newer barrels no longer have the groove and raised ring in front of the chamber where barrel beds against the slide. The barrels look eerily similar to the Glocks... I believe the new barrels will perform better than the previous version.
militarymoron
04-11-11, 14:14
yup - i'll be sending my barrel back to S&W for an exchange. to anyone who knows - will the longer 5" MP9L or Pro barrels work in the M&P fullsize as extended barrels, or does the ring around the front of the barrel not go back far enough to contact the fullsize slide?
"The barrels look eerily similar to the Glocks"
That's funny! Didn't S&W get in trouble for that before?
My uncle was in purchasing and the supply depot for the MSP in the 70s-80s and he said S&W's QC was absolutely non existant at the time. They were doing piece work and running 3 shifts, pumping guns out as fast as possible-sound familiar? He said up to 1/4 of the revolvers had to be sent back for one issue or another. Guys at my agency said the same thing and it was one major reason that my dept went with Ruger Speed Sixes in the 80s.
I have purchased S&Ws in the past that had to have never been examined before leaving the factory. A Model 38 2 inch had no rear sight groove, how that one made it by is a mystery.
Is S&W falling into the same old trap as before? Pump out as many guns as possible and take a chance on some coming back? I hope not.
Days of the hand-fitted pistol are pretty much gone. Replaced by assemblers and generous tolerances to ensure rapid assembly with zero handfitting. I think there will always be lemons that find their way out of the factory regardless of manufacturer. Realistically, Smith must have hundreds of thousands of M&Ps out there. Yet there are statistically very few that report problems.
Can they be made more accurate, better trigger or improved longevity? Absolutely. Those are our goals. I am in the process of fabricating new 9mm barrels that have improved lock-up and 1:16" twist. The proto-apex barrels should be in our test guns by June.
G34Shooter
04-11-11, 19:41
Days of the hand-fitted pistol are pretty much gone. Replaced by assemblers and generous tolerances to ensure rapid assembly with zero handfitting. I think there will always be lemons that find their way out of the factory regardless of manufacturer. Realistically, Smith must have hundreds of thousands of M&Ps out there. Yet there are statistically very few that report problems.
Can they be made more accurate, better trigger or improved longevity? Absolutely. Those are our goals. I am in the process of fabricating new 9mm barrels that have improved lock-up and 1:16" twist. The proto-apex barrels should be in our test guns by June.
Need another test FS9 let me know :)
I am in the process of fabricating new 9mm barrels that have improved lock-up and 1:16" twist. The proto-apex barrels should be in our test guns by June.
:dance3: Yes! Can't wait, and thanks for tackling this project.
davebee456
04-12-11, 01:00
what about 45acp barrels, I just bought one from budsgunshop and it is a May 2010 model (almost a year old.)
I wanted the newest version with the newest sear and silver striker and etc.
I put around 160 rounds through the pistol so far and I have to get over the trigger but i was getting some good hits at 15 yards.
legumeofterror
04-12-11, 15:14
I would wager that if such issues with performance were to show up in an AR15 makers rifles the brand would be regarded as total shit by most of the folks here, but for some reason the M&P gets a pass for premature unlocking leading to accuracy issues and a sub optimal barrel material and twist rate. I find that rather interesting.
I would wager that if such issues with performance were to show up in an AR15 makers rifles the brand would be regarded as total shit by most of the folks here, but for some reason the M&P gets a pass for premature unlocking leading to accuracy issues and a sub optimal barrel material and twist rate. I find that rather interesting.
1. There is no standard to which all pistols must be produced.
2. There are NO epidemic issues with the platform.
3. Could the design be better? Perhaps, this is why people like Randy are working to improve the lockup and change around the twist rates. Dont we do the same things with the AR15? Plus, the design is also evolving and changing, for the better. Every popular pistol on the market has followed the exact same progression. In fact..everything on earth follows this progression as perfection is impossible to attain.
Every manufacture can and has made mistakes, it is how they step up to the plate when it happens. And from my experience with Smith & Wesson with my M&P 15x I believe they will get the job done and have a very fine pistol to add to the mix. JMHO
willowofwisp
04-12-11, 17:42
.... as perfection is impossible to attain.
unless your cool like me... LOL
Every popular pistol on the market has followed the exact same progression. In fact..everything on earth follows this progression as perfection is impossible to attain.
Agreed! Where was the AR at the same point in it's lifecycle? Or, the 1911, and yes, the Glock? A little perspective is in order.
what about 45acp barrels, I just bought one from budsgunshop and it is a May 2010 model (almost a year old.)
I wanted the newest version with the newest sear and silver striker and etc.
I put around 160 rounds through the pistol so far and I have to get over the trigger but i was getting some good hits at 15 yards.
The .45s are freakishly accurate if you do your part. Most consistently accurate out of the box for M&Ps from what I've heard.
I usually don't do my part, but hey!
NikokurausuX9
04-15-11, 00:02
Quick question,
Earlier in the thread, someone made mention of comments that were made by LAV. Can I get a link to the thread or a repost of the comments? Or were these comments his comments from the article he and Ken Hackathorn were interviewed for about the HK45?
Thanks.
(Yes, I've searched.)
Quick question,
Earlier in the thread, someone made mention of comments that were made by LAV. Can I get a link to the thread or a repost of the comments? Or were these comments his comments from the article he and Ken Hackathorn were interviewed for about the HK45?
Thanks.
(Yes, I've searched.)
I believe the comments are being rehashed by people that have been to his classes.
Ive heard similar statements from him.
I bought a full size M&P 9mm and had nothing but malfunctions the first time I took it out. I'm not exaggerating when I say 1 out of every 3 rounds fired for the first 200 rounds was a stoppage.
I contacted S&W and they immediately sent me out a postage paid return slip. I sent the gun off to S&W and they sent it back in a timely manner. My only complaint is that they don't detail what they find or exactly the repair that is conducted when returning the gun.
I have yet to take the gun out again but plan on shooting it in the very near future. Just for reference I normally shoot and carry a G19 - 3rd Gen.
If you still have your slip that came back with the gun, call CS and use the reference number, they will let you know what they found and what was done.
Quick question,
Earlier in the thread, someone made mention of comments that were made by LAV. Can I get a link to the thread or a repost of the comments? Or were these comments his comments from the article he and Ken Hackathorn were interviewed for about the HK45?
Thanks.
(Yes, I've searched.)
They were posted in an AAR of a recent Level I class.
He basically said that QC was going downhill in the attempt to make a buck, and that he had seen a few folks switch from Glock to M&P and back to Glock, due to accuracy and reliability issues, with a specific mention of slide stops breaking on the right side, an issue corroborated by NCPatrolAR in regards to his agency's experience with the pistols.
If you want a direct quote, he said that Smith and Wesson "Snatched defeat from the jaws of Victory."
I can only speak from my own experience. I was very skeptical about the M&P, and I waited a while to buy one.
I absolutely LOVE my M&P. I have two of them (a 9c and 9L). The 9L has the Apex D/C kit installed, the 9c is stock. I love this gun more than ANY semiauto pistol I have ever owned, including my C&S tuned Colt Commander.
Shoots great, never fails, and fits my hand like it was made for it.
Having said all that, there is no "perfect" gun for everyone. I've had several students adopt the M&P after trying it out, but I've had some who didn't like it too.
I tell people to buy pistols that are reliable, shootable, and comfortable to carry. For me, the M&P has been all three.
They were posted in an AAR of a recent Level I class.
He basically said that QC was going downhill in the attempt to make a buck, and that he had seen a few folks switch from Glock to M&P and back to Glock, due to accuracy and reliability issues, with a specific mention of slide stops breaking on the right side, an issue corroborated by NCPatrolAR in regards to his agency's experience with the pistols.
If you want a direct quote, he said that Smith and Wesson "Snatched defeat from the jaws of Victory."
That's unfortunate, They have excellant design in the M&P, it's a shame they'd rather cheapen it up rather than try to improve it. I have 2 M&P's, a midsize.45 and a FS 9mm the .45 has always been extremely accurate,reliable, I'll probably keep it, The FS 9, is not in the same league as the .45, I've been using a HK-P2000 (LEM) for my informal training sessions, I'm finding the HK is more accurate for ME, then the M&P.
Magic_Salad0892
04-15-11, 11:21
I still want a midsize .45.
Awesome.
Don't know if I'd like it more than the equivalent HK though.
I still prefer my Gen3 Glock 19. With a positive nod for the Gen4.
Note: New extractors seem to work better on Gen4 pistols.
That's unfortunate, They have excellant design in the M&P, it's a shame they'd rather cheapen it up rather than try to improve it. I have 2 M&P's, a midsize.45 and a FS 9mm the .45 has always been extremely accurate,reliable, I'll probably keep it, The FS 9, is not in the same league as the .45, I've been using a HK-P2000 (LEM) for my informal training sessions, I'm finding the HK is more accurate for ME, then the M&P.
How has the platform been "cheapened"?
Im still waiting for someone to provide evidence that S&W is cutting costs and sacrificing durability and longevity by compromising the design with inferior materials...
It has been our experience that each succeeding batch of M&P's has been an improvement over the earlier ones.
How has the platform been "cheapened"?
Im still waiting for someone to provide evidence that S&W is cutting costs and sacrificing durability and longevity by compromising the design with inferior materials...
I was going from the post I had quoted and responded to..I figure if LAV made those comments about the M&P,then there maybe something to it.The comment made about slide stop levers breaking off is one that is a known problem,My understanding is they commonly break at around the 5000rnd mark, granted, a easy enough fix, and not a expensive one either, But why not make one that won't break in the first place? Glock seems to be able to. My own experience's with BOTH M&P's I have, To get them up to speed both needed Apex DCAEK's,and Heinie's, And now Randy is talking about a possible replacement barrel for the 9mm to improve accuracy via different twist and I'm assuming delaying the barrel unlocking,Frankly I'm not putting any more money into my FS9..I don't think it's worth it. The question is, Why can't S&W do this? More importantly, Why haven't they? IMO ONLY,One has 3 options with M&P's, you can, A. run it stock, B. Greatly improve it with a Apex DCAEK, and aftermarket sights of your choice. C. Move on to something else that needs little or nothing out of the box, In my case, the P-2000 fills that requirement for a 9mm pistol. I'm quite happy the the current level of performance I'm getting out of my Midsize .45,I've never owned a .45 that was as accurate. The FS 9 however has been a little dissapointing,and I've moved on to the HK. For ME, it works better.
I was going from the post I had quoted and responded to..I figure if LAV made those comments about the M&P,then there maybe something to it.The comment made about slide stop levers breaking off is one that is a known problem,My understanding is they commonly break at around the 5000rnd mark, granted, a easy enough fix, and not a expensive one either, But why not make one that won't break in the first place? Glock seems to be able to. My own experience's with BOTH M&P's I have, To get them up to speed both needed Apex DCAEK's,and Heinie's, And now Randy is talking about a possible replacement barrel for the 9mm to improve accuracy via different twist and I'm assuming delaying the barrel unlocking,Frankly I'm not putting any more money into my FS9..I don't think it's worth it. The question is, Why can't S&W do this?More importantly Why haven'they? IMO ONLY,One has 3 options with M&P's, you can, A. run it stock, B. Greatly improve it with a Apex DCAEK, and aftermarket sights of your choice. C. Move on to something else that needs little or nothing out of the box, In my case, the P-2000 fills that requirement for a 9mm pistol. I'm quite happy the the current level of performance I'm getting out of my Midsize .45,I've never owned a .45 that was as accurate. The FS 9 however has been a little dissapointing,and I've moved on to the HK. For ME, it works better.
1. The Glock doesnt have an ambi slide catch so please stop that comparison there.
1A. All M&P's are not breaking their slide releases on the right side of the weapon. This is not an epidemic problem, merely an issue that needs looking into.
1B. There is no statistical sampling saying that the slide catches break at 5k rounds. All of my guns, even my carry gun have over 10k rounds on them and im still on my original slide catches.
1C. A materials change or a design change IS probably required as the slide catch breakage issue is indeed an issue but it will evolve as the platform does. See some of my earlier posts, no product is perfect out of the gate.
2. The M&P needs nothing out of the box. The gun functions and it functions well. Glocks also need nothing out of the box.
2A. M&P's BENEFIT greatly from the Apex parts but they are NOT required to make the gun go bang. Conversely, Glocks BENEFIT greatly from the addition of real sights and some trigger components. Neither gun needs ANY additional TLC in order to run.
2B. M&P's do not NEED new barrels, they can merely benefit from them. This can be compared to the "unsupported chamber issue" in the Glock. Do Glocks need new barrels out of the box? Absolutely not, but CAN they be improved? Certainly.
We certainly are a spoiled bunch these days. Everyone seems to buy guns and immediately start slapping shit onto them and into them. Im included in this category as i just purchased a Gen 4 G19 and i hadnt even fired the gun and i had already ripped the sights off to put a set of Warrens on there. After 400 rounds i said screw it and started working on the trigger. All in all, my Glock did NOT need any of these parts but the parts aided me in shooting the platform comfortably and accurately. Do i blame the fact that the gun has a shit trigger out of the box and barely workable sights on the Glock design itself? Absolutely not, i am aware of the fact that the gun is built as a base and functions extraordinary well in its factory configuration for what it is meant to be, a utilitarian tool meant to protect or take life.
WE, as individuals determine how our weapons best fit our own unique standards.
Lets stop the bullshit going on in this thread and stick to some pure hard facts. Someone, please, give us some insight into the corner cutting Ala Ron Cohen that is currently going on at S&W.
I own 5 M&P's now and while I had early teething issues with broken strikers, those are resolved in the latest generation M&P's and I prefer this platform to anything else out there. My M&P's have been more reliable, more accurate, and better shooting for me than anything I've ever owned in the "plastic gun" category, including a Glock 19 that I had.
It seems kind of silly to make such global statements that something is "wrong" with the M&P (the implication being that something is inherently wrong or flawed with the platform), and then no evidence is offered to support it other than undocumented anecdotal reports of a few individual failures.
NikokurausuX9
04-15-11, 12:29
Magsz and bulbvivid,
Thank you for your responses.
Hopefully, whatever issues may exist will be ironed out by S&W. The M&P is a great design.
The FS 9 however has been a little dissapointing,and I've moved on to the HK. For ME, it works better.
For record, my FS 9 has been (so far) dead reliable, and very accurate for what it is. The .40 compact the same, but I have far fewer rnds through that in terms of longevity.
It has been our experience that each succeeding batch of M&P's has been an improvement over the earlier ones.
I would hope so. Just got rid of my .40 M&P and got a 9mm (SKU 209301, manufacture date January 20, 2011) and my wife went from a .40 FS to a 9c (SKU 209304, manufacture date late December of 2010) this weekend mainly due to the cost of ammunition. We were both satisfied with how they shot. Though our experience is limited in that we are in the 150 round (each) a month class of shooter. We have a sitter this weekend so we can head out to the range and will watch these pistols closely.
legumeofterror
04-19-11, 14:10
1. There is no standard to which all pistols must be produced.
2. There are NO epidemic issues with the platform.
3. Could the design be better? Perhaps, this is why people like Randy are working to improve the lockup and change around the twist rates. Dont we do the same things with the AR15? Plus, the design is also evolving and changing, for the better. Every popular pistol on the market has followed the exact same progression. In fact..everything on earth follows this progression as perfection is impossible to attain.
1. Right, but there are optimal twist rates and materials for use in a pistols barrel. S&W uses the same matierial and twist rate they used for their revolver barrels, likley as a cost saving measure as they are heavily invested in SS production. The twist rate is on the slow side, which can lead to performance issues with heavier bullets, the only reason for this being thier choice for SS as the barrel matierial.
2. Premature unlocking of the barrel is a pretty big issue wouldn't you say? Other pistols don't have that problem, so I think it is something one could put on the "standard to which all pistols must be produced" list.
3. Right, but as it stands there are other handguns available that cost the same, and don't have these problems. I don't understand how some people advocate the M&P when there are clear issues with the pistol and plenty of alternatives that have none.
It is reminiscent to me of when people were going apeshit over the XD, and now they are touted as crap.
None of those "issues" result in a gun that doesnt perform.
Please show me accuracy issues with a large sampling of guns.
Please show me poor performance with heavier grain bullets.
The items that you are speaking about are DESIGN CRITERIA that can be improved upon and ARE being improved upon.
I cannot out shoot my M&P's nor can i out shoot my Glocks. I suppose we could and probably should call into question the ability of the shooter but to date, the platform has not and probably never will be a limiting factor.
Its odd that im saying this as i DEFINITELY ascribe to the accuracy first school of thought and i truly believe that the words "combat accurate" are a sin but again, for all intents and purposes the practical accuracy of the PLATFORM has been good enough for my uses and should be good enough for 99% of the people that pick up these guns for sport, social purposes or duty use.
"Premature unlocking of the barrel is a pretty big issue wouldn't you say? Other pistols don't have that problem, so I think it is something one could put on the "standard to which all pistols must be produced" list."
Wanna bet? I watched four .45 caliber handguns from a different major vendor blow-up do to premature unlocking...other agencies have also had problems with this pistol type.
"Right, but as it stands there are other handguns available that cost the same, and don't have these problems. I don't understand how some people advocate the M&P when there are clear issues with the pistol and plenty of alternatives that have none."
I know of know few other handguns in the same price range that offer the outstanding capabilities of the M&P, particularly the M&P40 and M&P45.
snackgunner
04-19-11, 16:47
I would hope so. Just got rid of my .40 M&P and got a 9mm (SKU 209301, manufacture date January 20, 2011) and my wife went from a .40 FS to a 9c (SKU 209304, manufacture date late December of 2010) this weekend mainly due to the cost of ammunition. We were both satisfied with how they shot. Though our experience is limited in that we are in the 150 round (each) a month class of shooter. We have a sitter this weekend so we can head out to the range and will watch these pistols closely.
Be sure to update us in this thread on how your 9mm FS and 9c shoot later down the line after you have more rounds fired down range. I have faith in s&w and hope the problems are fixed with their current manufactured models as Im looking to get a 9mm FS soon.
threeheadeddog
04-19-11, 16:52
There is alot about the way some people are directing accusations at S&W with the way they have been making the M&P that I just dont get.
I simply dont see anything about the M&P that has regressed since its introduction. I cannot see how someone could say that the M&P has gone anywhere but up in its execution since its release. On the other hand I can see where some who first saw the M&P and said "this could be great with some improvements" could be dissapointed in where it is now and how long it seems to be taking in getting where they want it to be. I on the other hand am quite happy with where it is. I hope that it continues on its path up because I intend to buy another.
2. Premature unlocking of the barrel is a pretty big issue wouldn't you say?
Yes, it is but I thought "There are NO epidemic issues with the platform" summed it up nicely. Has not happened to me, has not happened to anyone I know from PDs that adopted and or others who put a lot of rounds through their M&Ps.
Other pistols don't have that problem,
Of course they do. The Q is, does the M&P have that issue at a higher % compared to others? I have seen nothing to indicate so.
Right, but as it stands there are other handguns available that cost the same, and don't have these problems.
I'd like to see the objective support M&Ps have those problems at higher rates then other brands of the ilk and price point before making negative comments about what has proven to be a great gun for the $$$ by most accounts, which I personally, would take over a glock any day.
I have at least 2 thousand rounds through my 9c. No failures. Nothing. I love shooting this gun and it's completely reliable. For me at least.
The Q is, does the M&P have that issue at a higher % compared to others? I have seen nothing to indicate so.
That's the million dollar question that probably nobody here knows the answer to. Unless someone has hard numbers for the major manufactures (SIG, Beretta, HK, S&W, Glock etc), it's all errornet BS and hearsay.
You also have to look at how many handguns of one product line vs another are sold. If S&W sells 500k handguns and HK sells 50k, then you will hear more about the S&W's issues, even though they are both running at 5% return/failure rate.
I think Va-Dinger summed it up best in another thread...
Oddly enough I go to allot of training classes and weapons malfunctions of any kind are rare. I personally think the Internet “The Sky Is Falling” on damn near every handgun known to man is getting completely out of hand. I just watched a Gen4 G19 run like a raped ape, multiple Sig’s w/o issues, etc. I see 1911’s of all price ranges run just fine in classes. Like I said, malfunctions of any kind are rare and when they do happen a quick lube usually fixes it. If you trust the internet these guns should have all exploded into pieces. It’s getting completely out of hand. Personally I blame allot of it on certain individuals wanting to be seen as experts.
IMO: Buy a service quality Glock, Beretta, Sig, Smith & Wesson, HK, etc and go shoot it.
legumeofterror
04-20-11, 18:32
Wanna bet? I watched four .45 caliber handguns from a different major vendor blow-up do to premature unlocking...other agencies have also had problems with this pistol type.
I know of know few other handguns in the same price range that offer the outstanding capabilities of the M&P, particularly the M&P40 and M&P45.
What type of pistol would that be? Under what circumstances did they fail?
Why do you think S&W decided to use stainless steel as thier barrel matierial? Why would they use such a slow twist rate?
I know of know few other handguns in the same price range that offer the outstanding capabilities of the M&P, particularly the M&P40 and M&P45.
What are your thoughts about the current M&P9c? Are the accuracy issues limited to the full size 9 or do they also affect the 9c?
I used to own 3 M&Ps back when they were having early teething problems so I sold the three of them.
I really liked the gun though, so I would like to buy a couple now that most of the early issues have been fixed.
I prefer 9mm but if they're still problematic I might just get them in .40 or .45 instead.
I have seen problems with virtually every modern service pistol currently manufactured. It does not mean that every design is flawed.
LAPD pulled all their G-21s out of service due to trigger bar issues.
Beretta slides and barrels breaking have been documented.
Early HK USPs have had magazine failures which resulted in rounds popping out of the ejection port during the fire cycle. At a recent LE course I was teaching at, 6 officers from a single department had failures to fire in all 6 HK 45s using the LEM triggers
FAM has had issues with their SIGs, and there are a slough of P220s from a variety of agencies which had issues with reliable extraction (my friend Bruce Gray can give you more information on this one).
Smith has been steadily improving the product. I would bet that the numbers of RMAs for warranty work has declined over the past 2 years.
Using stainless for barrels is not a bad thing. Bar-Sto barrels are stainless steel and in most cases, the barrels will outlast the owners. And accuracy of a well fit Bar-Sto are well known. The factory barrels are Melonited and 1:18.75 twist increase service life for the barrel. I believe the engineers were trying to balance the barrel life vs. accuracy concept. I don't personally think it is the twist rate I would have chosen, but that is my personal opinion coming from a custom pistolsmith's frame of reference.
All of the engineering design changes I have seen in the M&P within the past 2 years have been positive steps. This is true for most of the manufacturers. If there is a problem, the market typically dictates that corrective changes take place, or the gun dies a painful death. It does sometimes take a major scare or PR blunder to get big companies to move, but they do move.
Is there room for improvement? Yes. Absolutely.That is why we are here. If we can provide conclusive evidence that a change here or there will drastically improve accuracy/reliability/function/durability I think Smith will listen.
There is one gun that has very few gripes about function or accuracy on the dedicated forum. I believe it is the Hi-Point...
Cincinnatus
04-21-11, 09:14
I have seen problems with virtually every modern service pistol currently manufactured. It does not mean that every design is flawed.
LAPD pulled all their G-21s out of service due to trigger bar issues.
Beretta slides and barrels breaking have been documented.
Early HK USPs have had magazine failures which resulted in rounds popping out of the ejection port during the fire cycle. At a recent LE course I was teaching at, 6 officers from a single department had failures to fire in all 6 HK 45s using the LEM triggers
FAM has had issues with their SIGs, and there are a slough of P220s from a variety of agencies which had issues with reliable extraction (my friend Bruce Gray can give you more information on this one).
Smith has been steadily improving the product. I would bet that the numbers of RMAs for warranty work has declined over the past 2 years.
Using stainless for barrels is not a bad thing. Bar-Sto barrels are stainless steel and in most cases, the barrels will outlast the owners. And accuracy of a well fit Bar-Sto are well known. The factory barrels are Melonited and 1:18.75 twist increase service life for the barrel. I believe the engineers were trying to balance the barrel life vs. accuracy concept. I don't personally think it is the twist rate I would have chosen, but that is my personal opinion coming from a custom pistolsmith's frame of reference.
All of the engineering design changes I have seen in the M&P within the past 2 years have been positive steps. This is true for most of the manufacturers. If there is a problem, the market typically dictates that corrective changes take place, or the gun dies a painful death. It does sometimes take a major scare or PR blunder to get big companies to move, but they do move.
Is there room for improvement? Yes. Absolutely.That is why we are here. If we can provide conclusive evidence that a change here or there will drastically improve accuracy/reliability/function/durability I think Smith will listen.
There is one gun that has very few gripes about function or accuracy on the dedicated forum. I believe it is the Hi-Point...
This is a great and informative post. Thanks for taking the time to impart this information. This is the kind of red meat us M4C dogs crave. :cool:
My two M&P sear blocks are on their way back from Apex today. With the new spring & plunger in place, I expect mine to be 100% with DCAEK kits and RAM's installed. If I have any further issues, I'll pull the RAM's out and drive on.
Now, if I could just snag an M&P9 in FDE....
G34Shooter
04-21-11, 10:06
Excellent post Randy, that makes my decision to standardize on the M&P much easier lol
TriumphRat675
04-21-11, 10:27
The only thing "wrong" with M&P's is that they aren't free, aren't made of solid gold, and don't come with a lifetime supply of little blue pills.
Nothing is perfect. The M&P's are pretty darn good.
My two M&P sear blocks are on their way back from Apex today. With the new spring & plunger in place, I expect mine to be 100% with DCAEK kits and RAM's installed. If I have any further issues, I'll pull the RAM's out and drive on.
Now, if I could just snag an M&P9 in FDE....
Something to check on your pistola, make sure that the side and ramping surfaces of the trigger loop are flat and square to one another. We had a 9 pro come in with 30k rounds and untold dry fire. It was having the dead trigger using the factory sear, pro sear and ours-with and without the RAM.
The surface of the loop was rounded from wear and from what I gather is "gunsmith intervention". We replace the trigger assembly and it was back to 100%.
-Randy
Whether it be the M&P, the Gen4 Glock, or others, would the companies not benefit from just a bit more range time prior to product release so as to wring out some of the (even rare) issues rather than using the general public as the R&D department?
Something to check on your pistola, make sure that the side and ramping surfaces of the trigger loop are flat and square to one another. We had a 9 pro come in with 30k rounds and untold dry fire. It was having the dead trigger using the factory sear, pro sear and ours-with and without the RAM.
The surface of the loop was rounded from wear and from what I gather is "gunsmith intervention". We replace the trigger assembly and it was back to 100%.
-Randy
Thanks Randy,
I looked at mine last night and they don't appear to be rounded off. I didn't have any issues until I put the RAM in my FS. It has been 100% with the DCAEK for almost a year.
When are you guys going to create a replacement trigger bar?!
Whether it be the M&P, the Gen4 Glock, or others, would the companies not benefit from just a bit more range time prior to product release so as to wring out some of the (even rare) issues rather than using the general public as the R&D department?
Certainly, but to a certain degree there is never a point where something is truly "ready to go".
Just look at the car industry. We have model year 2010, 2011, 2012 etc because products are improved upon. Sure, model year 2010 is still a working model but arguably speaking, isnt the 2012 model going to be better (one would hope)?
Also, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any manufacturer to test a platform as thoroughly as the general public and a large PD will do through simple day to day use.
I believe the most tested gun in the history of small Arms is the FN Scar and it too has issues that have had to be corrected after its release.
Thanks Randy,
I looked at mine last night and they don't appear to be rounded off. I didn't have any issues until I put the RAM in my FS. It has been 100% with the DCAEK for almost a year.
When are you guys going to create a replacement trigger bar?!
You should be good to go with RAM and all then!
I am looking at a new design for the trigger bar which should extend service life of the fire control components and eliminate sear bounce entirely. Right now it is still in my brain, and hasn't been put on a Burger King napkin yet. So it will probably be out around the same time as our new slides(yes, I am actually considering making slides).
Sorry for the thread drift...
-Randy
You should be good to go with RAM and all then!
I am looking at a new design for the trigger bar which should extend service life of the fire control components and eliminate sear bounce entirely. Right now it is still in my brain, and hasn't been put on a Burger King napkin yet. So it will probably be out around the same time as our new slides(yes, I am actually considering making slides).
Sorry for the thread drift...
-Randy
Wow. OK, just between us . . . what would it take to get you hooked up totally with the Factory? ;)
Thanks
So it will probably be out around the same time as our new slides(yes, I am actually considering making slides).
You should just engineer the Apex pistol and be done with it. ;)
Wow. OK, just between us . . . what would it take to get you hooked up totally with the Factory? ;)
Thanks
I think the engineers hate me... :eek:
In all honesty, we would be happy to work with the factory. But I have to admit, the freedom to experiment has been working out well.
-Randy
I have seen problems with virtually every modern service pistol currently manufactured. It does not mean that every design is flawed.
LAPD pulled all their G-21s out of service due to trigger bar issues.
Beretta slides and barrels breaking have been documented.
Early HK USPs have had magazine failures which resulted in rounds popping out of the ejection port during the fire cycle. At a recent LE course I was teaching at, 6 officers from a single department had failures to fire in all 6 HK 45s using the LEM triggers
FAM has had issues with their SIGs, and there are a slough of P220s from a variety of agencies which had issues with reliable extraction (my friend Bruce Gray can give you more information on this one).
.
I agree, this is a really informative post and puts a lot of things in perspective with various pistol issues and failures.
Incidentally, the point about the 6 HK45's that had FTF's in the class you attended reminds of an incident at one of Todd Green's classes sometime last year, where in 1 day, 4 students that were running various CZ platform pistols had issues. On the basis of those issues, some were quick to pronounce that as a evidence that CZ's are inherently unreliable.
I would be really interested to hear how, using that same type of logic, these same folks would evaluate the HK45's for the 6 failures.
My own thinking is that a few failures by one type of pistol on one day does not prove ANYTHING by itself. It's an anomaly, a statistical freak occurrence. Sometimes you also roll five 6's in a row in dice games, too. But it doesn't repeat often enough to be a pattern, and when it does happen, it doesn't mean anything. A good gun is still a good gun, and failures just happen sometimes.
I would also be interested in hearing the details of the HK 45 malfunctions.
I would also be interested in hearing the details of the HK 45 malfunctions.
All 6 officers were using Winchester white box from the same lot during the morning, and Winchester Ranger ammo at night. During the daytime courses, they were experiencing on average 1 light strike per magazine. With their Ranger duty ammo, the FTFs went down to a rate of about 1-2 out of 50 rounds.
-Randy
Thank you. Any idea what LEM, and who installed the parts? I have multiple HK 45 and 45C with light LEM triggers, installed by the factory, and have never experienced a malfunction/stoppage of any kind.
I did have a bad experience with a CO gunsmith, that butchered an LEM trigger on an HK 45, and that resulted in light hits when I function tested it. Replaced parts with new factory ones, and never a problem.
legumeofterror
04-22-11, 19:06
I have seen problems with virtually every modern service pistol currently manufactured. It does not mean that every design is flawed.
LAPD pulled all their G-21s out of service due to trigger bar issues.
Beretta slides and barrels breaking have been documented.
Early HK USPs have had magazine failures which resulted in rounds popping out of the ejection port during the fire cycle. At a recent LE course I was teaching at, 6 officers from a single department had failures to fire in all 6 HK 45s using the LEM triggers
FAM has had issues with their SIGs, and there are a slough of P220s from a variety of agencies which had issues with reliable extraction (my friend Bruce Gray can give you more information on this one).
Smith has been steadily improving the product. I would bet that the numbers of RMAs for warranty work has declined over the past 2 years.
Using stainless for barrels is not a bad thing. Bar-Sto barrels are stainless steel and in most cases, the barrels will outlast the owners. And accuracy of a well fit Bar-Sto are well known. The factory barrels are Melonited and 1:18.75 twist increase service life for the barrel. I believe the engineers were trying to balance the barrel life vs. accuracy concept. I don't personally think it is the twist rate I would have chosen, but that is my personal opinion coming from a custom pistolsmith's frame of reference.
All of the engineering design changes I have seen in the M&P within the past 2 years have been positive steps. This is true for most of the manufacturers. If there is a problem, the market typically dictates that corrective changes take place, or the gun dies a painful death. It does sometimes take a major scare or PR blunder to get big companies to move, but they do move.
Is there room for improvement? Yes. Absolutely.That is why we are here. If we can provide conclusive evidence that a change here or there will drastically improve accuracy/reliability/function/durability I think Smith will listen.
There is one gun that has very few gripes about function or accuracy on the dedicated forum. I believe it is the Hi-Point...
Some objectivity. Neat. Thank you for the information.
I agree, this is a really informative post and puts a lot of things in perspective with various pistol issues and failures.
Incidentally, the point about the 6 HK45's that had FTF's in the class you attended reminds of an incident at one of Todd Green's classes sometime last year, where in 1 day, 4 students that were running various CZ platform pistols had issues. On the basis of those issues, some were quick to pronounce that as a evidence that CZ's are inherently unreliable.
I would be really interested to hear how, using that same type of logic, these same folks would evaluate the HK45's for the 6 failures.
My own thinking is that a few failures by one type of pistol on one day does not prove ANYTHING by itself. It's an anomaly, a statistical freak occurrence. Sometimes you also roll five 6's in a row in dice games, too. But it doesn't repeat often enough to be a pattern, and when it does happen, it doesn't mean anything. A good gun is still a good gun, and failures just happen sometimes.
Anecdotal evidence only applies when it supports your position. Don't you know that?
Thank you. Any idea what LEM, and who installed the parts? I have multiple HK 45 and 45C with light LEM triggers, installed by the factory, and have never experienced a malfunction/stoppage of any kind.
I did have a bad experience with a CO gunsmith, that butchered an LEM trigger on an HK 45, and that resulted in light hits when I function tested it. Replaced parts with new factory ones, and never a problem.
I am not sure who may have installed the kits nor whether they were using light or heavy. The cause of their woes at this point would be pure speculation on my part.
-Randy
ronin_13769
04-23-11, 13:05
Has anyone else had an issue with the follower getting stuck in the mag release cuts and causing a malfunction? This has happened with about 4 out of the ten M&P .45 mags that I have it has happened with both the older black one and the newer grey ones????
I would hope so. Just got rid of my .40 M&P and got a 9mm (SKU 209301, manufacture date January 20, 2011) and my wife went from a .40 FS to a 9c (SKU 209304, manufacture date late December of 2010) this weekend mainly due to the cost of ammunition. We were both satisfied with how they shot. Though our experience is limited in that we are in the 150 round (each) a month class of shooter. We have a sitter this weekend so we can head out to the range and will watch these pistols closely.Be sure to update us in this thread on how your 9mm FS and 9c shoot later down the line after you have more rounds fired down range. I have faith in s&w and hope the problems are fixed with their current manufactured models as Im looking to get a 9mm FS soon.
Ok brief range report. Spent most of the day with my new BCM middy. But I had enough time left over after that to put 100 rounds of UCM 115gr FMJ down range with my new M&P and my wife gave her compact a run through as well. At 10 yards I got decent groups. Nothing that I would want to write home about mind you. I do attribute that to operator error. My wife, who is normally a good shot, had groups similar to what Stevie Wonder would have gotten when she managed to get on the paper. Again we are attributing that to operator error and an unfamialirty with shooting a compact Vs. a full size.
Now for the down sides. On shot #3 I had a failure to cycle. The round went off as expected, but the weapon did not even try to eject the spent round or chamber a new one. My unscientific analysis wants to pin that on the ammo. On shot #27 the white insert for the front sight post went flying off into an alternate universe. I watched it disappear but it was no where to be found.
Other than that I was satisfied with the operation of the pistol keeping in mind that I was shooting a stock trigger. Like with my .40, the trigger pull was like old people having sex; rough, gritty, and sloppy. You can bet your next paycheck that I will be making a call to Randy Lee and Apex Tactical. I don't think that is a QC issue. It is just a fact of life with the M&Ps in general.
Not much for only 100 rounds but I did promise to give a report and felt that these were mentionable. Nothing happened for me to condemn the line at all.
We hit the failure point with a student's M&P in my Basic Pistol class last weekend. The gun began failing to extract with alarming regularity.
The gun was a S&W M&P 9L with a round count of about 2500.
I swapped out the student's gun for my own (another M&P) and he finished the course with no further problems.
Looking at the student's gun, my tentative diagnosis is a broken extractor/ejector. The gun is heading off to S&W for repairs.
warlord260
04-23-11, 21:37
Ok brief range report. Spent most of the day with my new BCM middy. But I had enough time left over after that to put 100 rounds of UCM 115gr FMJ down range with my new M&P and my wife gave her compact a run through as well. At 10 yards I got decent groups. Nothing that I would want to write home about mind you. I do attribute that to operator error. My wife, who is normally a good shot, had groups similar to what Stevie Wonder would have gotten when she managed to get on the paper. Again we are attributing that to operator error and an unfamialirty with shooting a compact Vs. a full size.
Now for the down sides. On shot #3 I had a failure to cycle. The round went off as expected, but the weapon did not even try to eject the spent round or chamber a new one. My unscientific analysis wants to pin that on the ammo. On shot #27 the white insert for the front sight post went flying off into an alternate universe. I watched it disappear but it was no where to be found.
Other than that I was satisfied with the operation of the pistol keeping in mind that I was shooting a stock trigger. Like with my .40, the trigger pull was like old people having sex; rough, gritty, and sloppy. You can bet your next paycheck that I will be making a call to Randy Lee and Apex Tactical. I don't think that is a QC issue. It is just a fact of life with the M&Ps in general.
Not much for only 100 rounds but I did promise to give a report and felt that these were mentionable. Nothing happened for me to condemn the line at all.
Round #3 failed to eject, and part of front sight came off in 100 rounds shooting. If that was my new gun i would be pissed. If needed for HD/SD i might be dead.
Round #3 failed to eject, and part of front sight came off in 100 rounds shooting. If that was my new gun i would be pissed. If needed for HD/SD i might be dead.
This is why you "break in" a new gun thoroughly before deeming it worthy for carry.
Only a fool buys a gun, slaps some hollow points into it and crams it into a holster.
I have two M&P 9FS's and a 9 Compact. I haven't had the compact very long and have only about 300 rounds through it. One FS is also relatively new (bought it a few months ago) and has had roughly 800 rounds through it. I have had my first one for over a year and and it's had around 5,000 through it.
So far, none of them have given me any trouble in regards to function. I have yet to have any malfunctions—unless you want to call the ease of auto-forwarding a malfunction, in which case I might agree with you—through monthly IDPA and 3-gun matches as well as frequent range time for practice. The slide and rear sight rusted on my first FS. The paint in the front sight came out at the end of the newest gun's first match. I just put some white spray paint in a cap and used a nail to drip some in the post, and it was ready for the next match. It's annoying but wasn't a huge problem.
I question only their accuracy, especially at longer distances, but that could likely be operator error. My newest FS does seem to be more accurate than my other one. I'm not the best shot but I'm not the worst; with my first FS, I can hope to get rounds in a 5-inch circle at 25 yds., but few of them want to get in there. With my new one, I can get 3-5 per 10-round string fairly consistently. I don't have any other guns to compare them to except for a Kimber Custom Target, which might not be the best comparison. I do get better groups with the Kimber at longer distances, though I'm still not shooting any remarkable groups, so operator error is definitely a factor there.
I may just be hoping that there's something wrong with the accuracy of the pistol to excuse my lack of skill, but when people like Kyle Defoor are remarking on accuracy problems with the M&P, it makes me wonder if there might be something to it.
Round #3 failed to eject, and part of front sight came off in 100 rounds shooting. If that was my new gun i would be pissed. If needed for HD/SD i might be dead.
Please note that I also said the pistol failed to even cycle. That to me points to an ammo problem. If it had stove pipes then I would be prone to point a finger at the pistol.
Round #3 failed to eject, and part of front sight came off in 100 rounds shooting. If that was my new gun i would be pissed. If needed for HD/SD i might be dead.
Please keep in mind that I said that the FTE was actaully a failure to cycle. The pistol, after firing, did not even cycle. That to me indicates a lack of pressure to operate the firearm. That lack of pressure would normally be sourced at the round. Now had the pistol attempted to eject the round and I wound up with a stove pipe, or had an extraction attempt failed and a double feed resulted then I would hang that squarely on the shoulders of the pistol. I reported this incident not to serve as praise or as an indictment of the pistol but rather to fufill a promise I made to report my experiences.
As for the white insert flying off into another dimension, yeah that is poor manufacturing. However when you get down to brass tacks that does not indicate that the firearm is unsuitable or unreliable.
John_Burns
04-24-11, 09:55
I just traded an XD in .40 for an M&P .40 FS with the external safety.
Shot 300rnds out of it on Friday and it ran perfect.
Like the trigger for what it is (striker fired) and I carry a 1911.
Shoots as well as I can read the sights so no complaints as far as accuracy.
Pretty good start but who knows until I get some more rounds through the gun. If it keeps this up I will have to try a .45.
I love my M&P 45 fullsize. It is as accurate as my HK45. The trigger left something to be desired, but it has been upgraded with apex parts and is quite impressive now. I was not super crazy about the sights. The white dot in the front came out sometime during the fist 50 rnds, and have been replaced with Ameriglos. Trouble free other then that with approx 1000rds fired. If 45 wasn't so expensive I would do the 2000 rnd challange. Time to start reloading again.
3 days ago my port side slide stop tab broke off of my FS9 m&p during a string of shots. I called S&W this morning and CS is sending me a replacement at no charge. I opted to not send my frame to them be cause of potential turn around times. Although the gun still functions, I feel I should post my experience.
DUF prefix, manufactured april 2010 I believe. Approx 3500-5000 round count.
This is why you "break in" a new gun thoroughly before deeming it worthy for carry.
Only a fool buys a gun, slaps some hollow points into it and crams it into a holster.
I CCW nothing that has not given me 500 failure free rnds personally as a minimum.
Magic_Salad0892
04-29-11, 13:32
I CCW nothing that has not given me 500 failure free rnds personally as a minimum.
I have adopted the 2k round challenge as the test method.
Thanks for the response about the Kahr pistol in the other thread, BTW.
mannythegreek
04-29-11, 14:28
The Detroit Police Use M&P's. No problems reported from them. I personally like the P30.
-E
My VTAC M&P 9mm got its first range outing today; 300 trouble-free rounds down range. Will someone tell me why I didn't buy one of these years ago? Very satisfied!!
Eleven pages...really. How many "shot the gun today, no problems" and "wow, I had a stove pipe on round 3002 at the range..these guns are not reliable."
Not trying to sound like a dick but come on. Are we searching for the holy grail of firearms? A perfect gun? Go buy a gun, go practice, put rounds through it and BE happy! Carry your gun and stay safe. That's important.
Go over the minutiae is not.
Rant off.
Not trying to sound like a dick but come on. Are we searching for the holy grail of firearms? A perfect gun? .
+1
Thank you. I've been thinking the same thing for about the last 4 pages. Anecdotal evidence is just that. Anecdotal.
I've always been a strong STRONG proponent of Sigs. I started carrying them in '87 and never looked back. Until recently. I've had 2 catastrophic failures in the last two years with two different Sigs. One with a cracked slide (during qualifying on a weapon with less than 5k rounds) and one with a broken sear pivot pin. Both caused me to lose *my* faith in Sig. As a result of my experiences and a few others in my agency, we decided to move on. After some testing we settled on the M&P .40 as a new service weapon. The uproar has been fairly substantial. There are a good number of our folks that have been carrying Sigs for years and still swear by them. I'm glad we are moving on. Many others are not. To each his own.
Train with your handgun. If it fails you and you lose faith, find something else. Don't rely on what you heard on the internetz. TRAIN with it.
PS (FWIW, I'm still not giving up on my 1989 Sig 226. It's never had a failure and I lost count of the number of round through it).
I'm cool with it, since those folks that have no real idea about how to realistically track trends serve as an awesome means of answering the question in the thread's title.
What's wrong with the M&P is a combo of users + lack of real-world diagnostic ability + frothing-at-the-mouth willingness to turn molehills into mountains.
The number of issues that are genuinely attributable to the platform itself and can be realistically/objectively held up against the WHOLE population of existing guns is simply being drowned out by the same yokel reporting the same single instance 15 times and having it get interpreted as that instance having happened 15 times when it clearly did not. This is exacerbated by the claimants getting shrill when folks remind them of the macro-view trends and facts being different than their micro-view observations based on small round-counts of fire that do not exceed sustained-rate volume.
Every time somebody wants to post some analogue of "...I know that that's not a lot of rounds, BUT....," they should stop right there and go slam their typing hands in a car door with no weather-stripping to pad the blow. Yes, by that I mean both hands; ergo, you may need somebody to slam the door on that second hand for you.
This isn't a matter of The Emperor's New Clothes.
It's one of the Emperor being smartly attired, but some poor addled, barking-mad guy in the crowd is raving loudly about a naked sovereign that only he can see.
My 9c has 5,838 rounds through it, 4,108 of which are my own mid-range reloads. There have been no stoppages or breakages with any factory or defense ammo, and only a handful of FTEs from the occaisional under-charged reload.
Perhaps the fullsize and L models are more prone to accuracy issues from the barrel unlocking prematurely. My 9c's accuracy is equal to my P30 at 7 yards, and only slightly inferior at 25 yards. My wife actually shoots the 9c better than the P30, but I attribute much of that to the Apex Sear. I consistently get sub 1" groups at 7 yards with the 9c, and have no trouble keeping 50 rounds within a circle I can cover with an open hand at 25 yards. It will continue to be my favorite carry pistol until it, the P2000SK or the G26 are made in a slim version.
theblackknight
04-30-11, 15:47
Eleven pages...really. How many "shot the gun today, no problems" and "wow, I had a stove pipe on round 3002 at the range..these guns are not reliable."
Not trying to sound like a dick but come on. Are we searching for the holy grail of firearms? A perfect gun? Go buy a gun, go practice, put rounds through it and BE happy! Carry your gun and stay safe. That's important.
Go over the minutiae is not.
Rant off.
Thank you ,****.
More shooting, less internet.
inconsistent factory triggers is one thing that scares me I have been doing some shopping around at local stores and every gun feels different dry firing them.
This..
I made the huge mistake and bought a M&P 9 Pro.I screwed around trying to get the trigger to lighten up by doing the Burwell trigger job. That helped but IMHO it still sucked. Rob just installed the Apex RAM and DCAEK and that helped. I put Warren Tactical night sights on it and they aren't working well for my 46 year old eyes.
I have way too much invested in my Pro and I'll take a bath if I try to sell it. I shoot my Sigs way better than the M&P .
What sight set up is everyone using? :blink:
threeheadeddog
04-30-11, 16:48
I am running a m&p 9L with either the factory frame or the frame off a standard M&P 9FS(different frames for different divisions, one is stippled). Both have stock triggers with 2.5k and 1.5k rounds a piece. They are roughly equivilent though the original 9L frame has a slightly nicer trigger but I have put an extra 1000 rounds through it. Both frames yeald about .17+-.01 splits on a bill drill.
This..
I made the huge mistake and bought a M&P 9 Pro.I screwed around trying to get the trigger to lighten up by doing the Burwell trigger job. That helped but IMHO it still sucked. Rob just installed the Apex RAM and DCAEK and that helped. I put Warren Tactical night sights on it and they aren't working well for my 46 year old eyes.
I have way too much invested in my Pro and I'll take a bath if I try to sell it. I shoot my Sigs way better than the M&P .
What sight set up is everyone using? :blink:
I'm using Warren Tactical 2 dot night sights. I've only got a couple hundred rounds through each pistol (I have 2-a 9mm and a 9C), but IMO they've been great so far. I haven't tried them in low light yet though.
This..
I made the huge mistake and bought a M&P 9 Pro.I screwed around trying to get the trigger to lighten up by doing the Burwell trigger job. That helped but IMHO it still sucked. Rob just installed the Apex RAM and DCAEK and that helped. I put Warren Tactical night sights on it and they aren't working well for my 46 year old eyes.
I have way too much invested in my Pro and I'll take a bath if I try to sell it. I shoot my Sigs way better than the M&P .
What sight set up is everyone using? :blink:
ALL factory guns have inconsistent triggers in my experience. If you're at a skill level where you know what you like in a trigger and you know what characteristics you shoot well then you're going to immediately notice differences between models off of the gun store shelves.
My Gen 4 G19 feels nothing like the rest of the G19's in my shooting clubs possession. Every single one is different even with DROP IN parts. The same goes for our M&P's but at the risk of going against the grain and not screaming that the sky is falling i will say that every single M&P that we have that has Apex parts in it is far more consistent than our array of Glocks.
Its the nature of the beast with a production handgun but again, its good enough to shoot people in the face with should the need arise.
By the way, these comments were less directed at you and more directed at the gent that you quoted, i havent got a clue as to how to find him and quote that so i picked up on your post so for that i apologize.
Now, moving along. What exactly is everyones experience with a handgun or for that matter, anything mass produced? Am i so much of a noob that im NOT surprised by inconsistencies in production between a G19 produced in March and a G19 produced in May? The same goes for the M&P. Tooling wears, QC varies and if the assembler is having a bad day he might screw something up. Im actually amazed that we have as much consistency as we do with these things given how many small parts are involved and the fact that they're built to contain a small explosion at a price point that is, well, cheap in my eyes.
Maybe i dont know what a good trigger is but i have no qualms about any of my tupperware guns.
Last but not least, someone start a "lets lynch Novak" thread as i believe they're the supplier of the sights on the M&P and if the paint is falling out, the only error that Smith has made is that they havent dropped the hammer of Thor on Novak to increase THEIR QC.
My Gen 4 G19 feels nothing like the rest of the G19's in my shooting clubs possession. Every single one is different even with DROP IN parts. The same goes for our M&P's but at the risk of going against the grain and not screaming that the sky is falling i will say that every single M&P that we have that has Apex parts in it is far more consistent than our array of Glocks.
I would add to the above, and this goes mostly for the M&P, but perhaps some other production guns, most people are unwilling to put enough rnds through them to smooth the triggers out. Like anything mass produced, the triggers can vary a bit, but they also greatly improve with some shooting time.
I was at the S&W Training Academy (where I did a short stint as an adjunct trainer) shooting with the director of the academy. I had shot various M&Ps with various qualities of trigger, ranging from f-ing horrible MA compliant triggers (12-14bs of grit crap) to the LEO versions (fairly decent 4.5-5lbs) but all fairly newish.
He went and got a .40 compact from the rental center. This is a gun that gets shot all day, every day as a rental gun.
The trigger was very smooth. I asked if it had had some work done, and he said no, it's just been shot a ton and the triggers smooth out, it's just most people don't put enough rnds through them before they decide they trigger is this or that, and he gave a long talk on various technical issues why the M&P was built the way it is, and so forth.
Now to that point, I had been a dedicated 1911 guy, but that experience convinced me it was time to give an evil plastic pistol a try, and I have not looked back since.
No, it's not the equal of a high end 1911 (nothing is in my view...) but with some tuning and APEX parts and practice, it gets way closer then I'd like (truth be told!) to something I paid 3-4 times the price for.
For me, and frankly everyone I know who has one, be it civi or as an issued gun, boringly reliable (if such a thing exists) and better then acceptable accuracy from a mass produced gun intended to be reliable and rugged vs. ultra accurate per se.
I'm not a gun expert, and I don't play one TV, the above is my personal experiences and impressions.
Does anyone know when Smith will be releasing the newer barrels for the 9mm version(Randy Lee mentioned this in a thread)? Has the sear prob been fixed for sure. I am wanting to pick one of these up,but am wondering if all the fixes have been implemented.
These are the sights I prefer, especially for 45+ y/o eyes:
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/142745811358.jpg
These are the sights I prefer, especially for 45+ y/o eyes:
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/142745811358.jpg
Another thing on my list O wants. Really want to try that set up some time. With the sites co witnessed to the red dot like that (my major concern should the red dot site die for what ever reason), it seems a win win to me. My 45 year old eyes are in decent shape :D
DocGKR who did the sight install on your M&P 45, that's about the slickest set up I have seen yet on an M&P. Thanks.
I'm using Warren Tactical 2 dot night sights. I've only got a couple hundred rounds through each pistol (I have 2-a 9mm and a 9C), but IMO they've been great so far. I haven't tried them in low light yet though.
I almost went that route but went with the 3 dot because all my Sigs have 3 Dot Meprolights so I thought I should stay somewhat consistant. The Warren Dots are tiny and tough to pick up.
I have 20/20 vision but I need reading glasses and it's getting to the point I cant focus on the front sight post on a handgun. I may try Ameriglow....or maybe the All Black Ameriglows??? Anyone else have input? :confused:
Nephrology
05-01-11, 23:26
I almost went that route but went with the 3 dot because all my Sigs have 3 Dot Meprolights so I thought I should stay somewhat consistant. The Warren Dots are tiny and tough to pick up.
I have 20/20 vision but I need reading glasses and it's getting to the point I cant focus on the front sight post on a handgun. I may try Ameriglow....or maybe the All Black Ameriglows??? Anyone else have input? :confused:
Try the Ameriglo Hackathorns. I am about to put them on both of my self defense pistols (G19/G17). Flatblack rear, luminova circle + tritium post on the front sight. My favorite sights ever. Super fast.
I'll take a look at them.
I just checked and they are not offered for the M&P Pro
Has anyone tried the Bowie Tacticals from AmeriGlow?
I have been running the Hackathorn style sights on my M&P 45's for the last month. I like them so far. Once I hit 40 I needed glasses to read small print. The wide notch and post really help me, especially when I'm not wearing my prescription saftey glasses. I think they are a great option for older eyes. DocGKR's posts on Red dot sights on pistols have me thinking hard on a similar setup.
I'll take a look at them.
I just checked and they are not offered for the M&P Pro
Has anyone tried the Bowie Tacticals from AmeriGlow?
Yes I have them on 2 M&P's, while I have the Warren 2-dot setup (provided by Grant) on another one for comparison. After running both for a year, I prefer the Bowie Tactical "operator" sights, they are faster to acquire in low light and I also like the yellow-green contrast.
tzoid, I'm using the Ameriglo Pros I got from Grant, and am very happy with them. We did have to loctite both the fronts and backs down--the rear got loose just from shooting and the fronts came loose after doing one handed slide manipulation using the front as the contact point.
JT and Kyle banged them back in, and then we used blue loctite on them, which seemed to work.
Your eyes sound the same as mine, and I found these good both in the bright sunlight, and at night.
Fire_Medic
05-02-11, 16:24
Try the Ameriglo Hackathorns. I am about to put them on both of my self defense pistols (G19/G17). Flatblack rear, luminova circle + tritium post on the front sight. My favorite sights ever. Super fast.
The last handful of glocks I had I was using the same sights. I will echo the post I quoted. "For me" these sights are very easy to pick up, and fast. I picked up my first M&P today, and was happy to see last week that Ameriglo makes them for the M&P's and just had them installed on my M&P today as well. I will be getting to the range tomorrow with this pistol to begin my 2,000 round challenge.
As for the thread in General, I will just add this. For the better part of last year I worked part time on my days off at a local GS. The inconsistency of the M&P product was there, but no more I would say than most other manufacturers. I have had a bad taste in my mouth because the "first" M&P pistol I was going to buy last year, was faulty right out of the box, and that steered me away from them. The pistol that followed me home today has a much better fit and finish "out of the box" than what I have seen personally in the past. The first thing I was able to notice right away was the finish on the slide and barrel. It looks different (and much better IMHO) than what I have seen before. It's got a deeper rich black color to it and looks fantastic. The gun also has a better fit (slide to frame, etc) than the M&P's I have handled before.
Also this pistol has a very good factory trigger in comparison, to the ones I have previously handled. That said, I still had an Apex sear installed today along with the sights, and it made a huge difference, I am just waiting for the Apex RAM and striker block to come in to my guy for installation.
I am very happy with my initial observations of the pistol, and can't wait to get started on it tomorrow. This has been a long time coming for me, but the day is here now.
Just my $0.02
FM
Check out this Ameriglo "ProGlo" front sight, I run it on my G19 and it is very easy to pickup with these 58 year old eyes.
http://www.ameriglo.net/catalog/sights/pistol-sights/smith-wesson/night-sights/front-sights
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8509/sw212230or.jpg
I called AmeriGlow today and Rick called me back and we decided to give these a try.
Products on order:
1 x SW-102PR (Flat Black) - $35.00
SKU: SW-102PR
1 x SW-810-250 (Serrated) - $25.00
SKU: SW-810-250
I use this gun mostly for Steel Plate shooting and it's my secondary weapon at Carbine classes.
I have read good things about this set up so it's worth a shot. Rick also said that I should try the black front and if it's not working I'll paint the post with Nail polish...:blink:
Thanks for all the great feedback
I'll post my findings
to consistently shoot with Sigs, HK's and Glocks? I have heard alot about the M&P not being as accurate as the other's.My M&P9 wasn't for me as my P30. I have also heard of this barrel fix, that S&W is coming out with. Does anyone know when this might happen. It seems that everything else is fixable by aftermarket products, other than the barrel twist rate, unlocking times,etc.I know that accuracy isn't everything and so on, but I'd like to know that it's up to par with the rest of the pack as far as mechanical accuracy.
DeusExMachina
05-04-11, 00:12
My M&P was the most accurate gun I've shot. But the trigger sucked, the size of it sucked, the cost of parts sucked, the lack of aftermarket sucked, etc.
They've got accuracy down pretty well...
ColdDeadHands
05-04-11, 06:54
The first 3 rounds I've ever fired (@15 yards) thru my M&P9 all touched each other.
A shitty Trigger has a Huge impact on Accuracy.... Fix the Trigger and the gun shoots as accurate and any Plastic gun on the market.
Most "accuracy issues" associated with the M&P's is typically the result of the trigger and its tendency to have crunchy first stage and too much overtravel. Too much over travel can play havoc on your accuracy. Additionally the soft reset makes accurate follow ups tougher. While I plan on upgrading my trigger at some point, I don't have a lot of accuracy issues with mine because I understand the weaknesses of my trigger and work within them.
I have shot a handful of M&P9s and 9cs, and they have all been every bit as accurate as I would ever need them to be.
I think that most semiautomatic pistols from reputable manufacturers are capable of more "accuacy" than all but the very top tier of shooters. And even then, those people's skills probably far exceed what is necessary in combat shooting, which I assume is what brings most folks to M4C.
The trigger is the only real hindrance, but my opnion is that it is more the trigger reset that is sub-par on them than the break. A fancy trigger for most shooters is a crutch to make up for their inability to master the platform. How many people buy a brand new M&P and drop an APEX kit in it without ever firing a round, based solely on internet chatter? I found that 500 rounds smoothed out the factor trigger and defined the reset better. Just my opinion.
PrivateCitizen
05-04-11, 11:20
Any M&P is ready.
Any known issues with it have either been resolved in production or have known "fixes".
And there is nothing wrong with the factory trigger if you learn it. Can it be better, yes. Again, available "fixes" if you require them.
Any M&P is ready.
Any known issues with it have either been resolved in production or have known "fixes".
And there is nothing wrong with the factory trigger if you learn it. Can it be better, yes. Again, available "fixes" if you require them.
This is spot on.
Unrelated to the above post but ive got to question and wonder where the hell these threads are coming from. There are more PERCEIVED issue threads than actual threads detailing issues with the M&P.
Can we give this a rest and i dunno, maybe go shoot our guns a bit more instead of theorizing about how our guns are going to have issues?
I know I'm not towing the party line here but my experience with the M&P in 9mm is that the accuracy is NOT what it should be. I am not alone in this either.
While a 6" 10 shot group at 25 yards may be fine for most (most cops would be overjoyed with this) it is not what I would call acceptable. Some of the M&P 9s display acceptable accuracy, mine did not. Again, I'm not alone in this. Having had some discussion with people who work at Smith, some of them have admitted that the accuracy could be better/more consistent. This is NOT to imply that all M&P 9s are inaccurate, the results are just inconsistent.
It will be interesting to see what Apex comes up with as Randy is working on a fix for the accuracy bug. Once the BarSto gunsmith fit barrel comes online I will be fitting one to see what improvement I can coax from my remaining M&P 9.
Joe,
I think what you're experiencing is correct and on the money but you even said it yourself, most shooters would be overjoyed with six inch groups at 25 yards.
I believe Randy Lee has said that accuracy could be improved in two ways.
1. An optimized twist rate.
2. Delaying the unlocking of the platform
I believe i raised this question in the "other" M&P problem thread and no one ever really answered it. What IS acceptable accuracy out of a service handgun?
Not to mention, accuracy issues do not mean a fundamentally broken gun so i hope we can agree on that.
TwoSqueeze
05-04-11, 12:55
While a 6" 10 shot group at 25 yards may be fine for most (most cops would be overjoyed with this) it is not what I would call acceptable. Some of the M&P 9s display acceptable accuracy, mine did not.
This has been my experience as well. My M&P 9, while having decent accuracy for most people, just did not do it for me out past 15 yards. 10 shot Groups would start opening up to a 6-10 inch spread from 15 to 25 yards. This was from sandbags. I am no LAV but I am a pretty damn decent shot and I could tell a difference when shooting my M&P and a Glock 17 back to back on drills out past 15 yards. It is a sampling of one so take it for what it is worth.
Cheers,
-TS
ETA: Ken Hackathorn attributed the M&P "accuracy issues" (his words not mine) to the quick unlocking of the barrel from the slide.
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